Hazbin Hotel / Helluva Boss Thread - Now a Griefing Thread

[InJailOutSoon]

I recall reading that Charlie and Vaggie only became a romantic pairing post-pilot due to Viv's propensity to canoniz fan ships. Is that entirely true? Their interactions in the pilot came off as off as lesbian bait more often then not.

Seems like the whole thing came around during the pilots production and not after.

Yes. People on the show shipped them together, and Viv decided to make them canon. In fact, Viv didn't have a confirm sexuality for Vaggie for the longest time compared to Charlie.

Since Viv never planned out this pairing, it's no wonder how underdeveloped it is. The only one I could argue that is even more underdeveloped than them is Sir Pentious and Cherri, and that's another ship she only made canon because it was popular in the fandom.

 

[Grand Duke Snowfall]

I still vaguely remember that old art where Angel Dust and Vaggie were a couple instead of Charlie and Vaggie. Way better dynamic than what we currently have too.

 

[GoodWinSon]

Yes. People on the show shipped them together, and Viv decided to make them canon. In fact, Viv didn't have a confirm sexuality for Vaggie for the longest time compared to Charlie.
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Since Viv never planned out this pairing, it's no wonder how underdeveloped it is. The only one I could argue that is even more underdeveloped than them is Sir Pentious and Cherri, and that's another ship she only made canon because it was popular in the fandom.

I'm no writer but Viv seems to have a tendency to the cart before the horse. She writes characters and plot elements without deeply considering their purpose. Then, she later on has to scramble and introduce, often half-baked, justifications for why she wrote in a particular character or plot element. Even worse, some of this justification never ends up in the story itself. Only in supplement material, which is wielded as a blugeon to silence criticisms.

I suppose this is one reason why all her stories tend to go off the rails in record time.

 

[Re(Runner)48]

I still vaguely remember that old art where Angel Dust and Vaggie were a couple instead of Charlie and Vaggie. Way better dynamic than what we currently have too.

Yeah it's really wacky, it's odd cus one they are both moths (very original) and two they were both going to be prostitutes Vaggie was one that killed herself and Angel was going to be a crazy whore character who would just do anything. And even had way more chemistry.

Side note it's so odd how incestuous her creations are they all have been drawn to just fuck eachother or have been in a relationshipwith one another. (Alastor/Mimzy/Vox/Lucifer, AngelDust/Vaggie/Fausts Oc/Valentino/Husk, Blitzo/Fizz/Veronika/Stolas, etc.) It's never just having a character BE a character its always the relationship that dictates everything.

 

[Outer Space Traveller]

I still vaguely remember that old art where Angel Dust and Vaggie were a couple instead of Charlie and Vaggie. Way better dynamic than what we currently have too.

I've seen people get mad at seeing Vagyna and PCP paired together. It's almost as if they go "NOOOOOO YOU CAN'T PAIR A FAGGOT WITH A LESBIAN!!!!". Yeah, well, why do people keep pairing straight men and women all the time then?

Yeah it's really wacky, it's odd cus one they are both moths (very original) and two they were both going to be prostitutes Vaggie was one that killed herself and Angel was going to be a crazy whore character who would just do anything. And even had way more chemistry.

Side note it's so odd how incestuous her creations are they all have been drawn to just fuck eachother or have been in a relationshipwith one another. (Alastor/Mimzy/Vox/Lucifer, AngelDust/Vaggie/Fausts Oc/Valentino/Husk, Blitzo/Fizz/Veronika/Stolas, etc.) It's never just having a character BE a character its always the relationship that dictates everything.

Wow, talk about a "Show of Ships" that has more "ships" than that Discovery Channel "Deadliest Catch".

 

[Strawberry Kiwi Propel]

The only one I could argue that is even more underdeveloped than them is Sir Pentious and Cherri, and that's another ship she only made canon because it was popular in the fandom.

Especially since originally, Pentious was going to have a crush on Rosie, where as Cherri... erm... does nothing? I know I said I'm curious on how CherriSnake is going to be handled in Season 2 (FYI, Viv is thinking about giving them a duet), but in reality, I just want to know what is she going to do with Cherri Bomb. As much as people say Mimzy or Zestial were pointless, I agree with Fireman Sam, Cherri Bomb was the most egregious example of characters who didn't matter, and to me, one of the reasons why is despite doing jack shit, she gets all these promos like she was this important person... what the fuck did she actually do in Season 1? You could've just had Charlie give Angel money to spend "responsibly" out, and have him at the club getting drinks anonymously and there, Cherri's only contribution to the plot been worked around. Chai explain plethora of times on his Tumblr why the Husk drug scene was contrived, and after rewatching the episode, that wasn't a factor, let alone ultimate factor on why Angel should be in Heaven. And as much people complain that Niffty barely sang, she had some lyrics for herself, which are associated to her character (i.e., appreciating Alastor for fixing the clog), Cherri only sang in the finale, in unison with the rest of the group. That shows how inconsequential her character is, that Viv couldn't even give a lyric that reflects her character, because she doesn't have one. Mind you, the only other credited VAs who didn't get their moments to sing were Brandon (Katie) and Rivera (Travis).

Sorry for that little rant, but as much as people rightfully said Michael was doon poorly by Viv, I feel like Krystal is the one that deserved better the most. Viv clearly doesn't know what she wants to do Cherri Bomb and ended up reducing her to a ship. Before she privated her Twitter, her only Likes of Cherri Bomb were CherriSnake posts, and she didn't comment, or at that very least, retweeted her A24 redesign reveal, when she did for literally everyone else's. She's the only pilot character to not have a focal episode from the original episode list. Viv hardly gave any info on her on live streams besides being Australian and from the 80's. She could've pulled a Baxter and reserved her for a future season. Or did what she did with Katie and Tom and get an established Hellaverse VA to voice her. But nah, it's HER IP to sit on and do nothing with! Viv knew what she was doing. Even if Faye wasn't Glitz and Glam, she and Tomar weren't that into their roles, so Viv figured they could care less that they got replaced by Blitzo and Alastor. She was aware how much Krystal enjoyed playing Cherri Bomb, though. Once she got her Broadway actors, she wanted her (and everyone for that matter) to distant themselves from the role, thus getting a brand new actress for Cherri so Krystal can stop engaging with HH content out of respect for Krystina (Krystal, Krystina? Come on now). And to top it all off, she wouldn't allow the pilot VAs to do Hazbin voice requests during a charity stream that was to help with Krystal's medical bills after her partner passed away for "legal reasons". Bravo, Viv. Bravo.

 

[Smity Werbenjagermanjensen]

Especially since originally, Pentious was going to have a crush on Rosie, where as Cherri... erm... does nothing? I know I said I'm curious on how CherriSnake is going to be handled in Season 2 (FYI, Viv is thinking about giving them a duet), but in reality, I just want to know what is she going to do with Cherri Bomb. As much as people say Mimzy or Zestial were pointless, I agree with Fireman Sam, Cherri Bomb was the most egregious example of characters who didn't matter, and to me, one of the reasons why is despite doing jack shit, she gets all these promos like she was this important person... what the fuck did she actually do in Season 1?

ADDICT at least showed Cherri having some sort of character, like being the one person that Angel could lean his shoulder on and implying she had some sort of tragic backstory regarding I believe an ex (Not special at all but at least it's something), of course the whole being the one person Angel trusted isn't a part of her character anymore, since she first appears or even mentioned well after the Angel and Husk episode that sees Angel open up. Judging by her casting call the troubled past is still canon.

Cherri being the legitimately caring friend who nevertheless helps fuel just about every bad habit Angel has because she's the only person he really trusts (Remember Angel made the Hotel become a laughingstock because he was assisting Cherri in the street battle in the pilot) would have been an interesting dynamic if it was given a focus episode instead of getting one single scene that's also set after Angel becomes close friends with the rest of the Hotel.

But one last very important thing, I don't even think it's another part of S1 being massively fucked pacing wise, because even the leaked proposed episodes and comics make absolutely zero mention of her, so even if Viv got all the episodes she wanted, Cherri would have still been a minor character for Season 1.

 

[InJailOutSoon]

Sorry for that little rant, but as much as people rightfully said Michael was doon poorly by Viv, I feel like Krystal is the one that deserved better the most. Viv clearly doesn't know what she wants to do Cherri Bomb and ended up reducing her to a ship. Before she privated her Twitter, her only Likes of Cherri Bomb were CherriSnake posts, and she didn't comment, or at that very least, retweeted her A24 redesign reveal, when she did for literally everyone else's. She's the only pilot character to not have a focal episode from the original episode list. Viv hardly gave any info on her on live streams besides being Australian and from the 80's. She could've pulled a Baxter and reserved her for a future season. Or did what she did with Katie and Tom and get an established Hellaverse VA to voice her. But nah, it's HER IP to sit on and do nothing with! Viv knew what she was doing. Even if Faye wasn't Glitz and Glam, she and Tomar weren't that into their roles, so Viv figured they could care less that they got replaced by Blitzo and Alastor. She was aware how much Krystal enjoyed playing Cherri Bomb, though. Once she got her Broadway actors, she wanted her (and everyone for that matter) to distant themselves from the role, thus getting a brand new actress for Cherri so Krystal can stop engaging with HH content out of respect for Krystina (Krystal, Krystina? Come on now).

ADDICT at least showed Cherri having some sort of character, like being the one person that Angel could lean his shoulder on and implying she had some sort of tragic backstory regarding I believe an ex (Not special at all but at least it's something), of course the whole being the one person Angel trusted isn't a part of her character anymore, since she first appears or even mentioned well after the Angel and Husk episode that sees Angel open up. Judging by her casting call the troubled past is still canon.

Cherri being the legitimately caring friend who nevertheless helps fuel just about every bad habit Angel has because she's the only person he really trusts (Remember Angel made the Hotel become a laughingstock because he was assisting Cherri in the street battle in the pilot) would have been an interesting dynamic if it was given a focus episode instead of getting one single scene that's also set after Angel becomes close friends with the rest of the Hotel.

Even her audition sheet had more going for her than the actual show.

I really can't blame people for thinking she was going to do more. She seemed to definitely be more of a source of conflict to Angel relapsing. She's a well meaning friend who doesn't understand why Angel would want to go down the straight and narrow path. Plus it's also interesting how she would go up against other overlords even though she's not one herself and would be taking their turfts. Would have shown that more explosive attitude of hers and how she's constantly riding the high on danger.

Also I heard Krystal (the pilot VA) sing in both Addict and the farewell song the pilot cast did, and she's not a bad singer. But that's true for the majority of the main pilot cast. We hear Angel Dust's, Cherri's, Husk's, and Nifty's VAs sing in that farewell song; and they all sound like their character is actually singing. I don't get why Viv said she didn't think they wouldn't be capable of doing numbers.

Viv, just admit that you wanted Broadway Singers all along for your show. We all know that to be the case, and you pussy-footing around the issue makes you look worse.

 

[Strawberry Kiwi Propel]

I was going to mention ADDICT, but I hesitated because it's debatable if that's something Viv had planned and use the song as an opportunity to tease it... or she made up Cherri's portion exclusively for the video. The guy in the video is based off a Zoophobia character named Izzi.

But keep in mind, SilvaHound's intentions with Chi-Chi is that she's singing as Angel Dust.

Yeah, you fell in love
But, you fell deeper in this pit (Angel and Val)

You're not lettin' it go
So, what if I misbehave?
It's what everybody craves (Angel vs. The Hotel)

Your money and power
My sinful delight (Val's Overlord privileges)

This hotel is my Atlantis
(This one's a no brainier, Cherri isn't a guest yet)

Obviously, they weren't going to have Angel lip sync a woman's voice, so rather than making an OC or just have Chi-Chi's lyrics play in the background, they used Cherri to lip sync since she was a perfect fit due to her only meaningful character trait at the time was being Angel's BFF who shared his attributes.

I did bring up how there weren't any Cherri focused stories in the proposed episodes during my previous comment, which to be fair, there are episodes and comics that were missing such as Episode 1

(Though if you look very closely on the top right, the image does resemble the scene in the pilot, which BTW is called That's Entertainment, where Alastor introduces himself with his "Stock Market Crash of 1929" line)

Issues #1,5,6 and 7 were missing too. Given how there were at least 10 comics, I presume that there would be at least 10 episodes, so chalk that as you will. At the same time, however, even if Cherri was the focus in one of those missing episodes/issues, I doubt it'll outnumber the amount of HuskerDust content we were supposedly going to get. Issue #8 was about Husk acting MVP in rescuing Angel, Episode 5 was beta Masquerade, and judging by the image, Angel is the only person to accompany Charlie when she takes Husk to the carnival in Episode 4.

Looking at her audition sheet, there's components for a potential foil to Angel Dust, but going off Season 1's ending and the Season 2 leaks, she's just part of the gang now the way Sir Pentious was before ascending. The bit about her causing trouble for Overlords is interesting, although again she's part of the Hotel, and from their perspective: Carmilla's an ally, Zestial is close to Carmilla, so no beef from him, Rosie's an ally, Alastor's an on and off ally, the Vees are a packaged deal enemy wise. That leaves Miss Zilla/Zeezi and that flaming skull Overlord with antlers.

The end of her audition sheet mentions that she's overcoming her past, it's just with how vague that sounds, who knows when that'll get touched upon. As upset Michael got when people said he can't sing when POISON was released, at least that provided a reasonable explanation on why he had to get replaced. Are you saying Krystal has to wait 4+ years to truly understand why she had to get replaced by a Broadway actress, and until the day comes, she's going to let Krystina pride herself as Cherri Bomb for her astonishing performance during the scenes of... being Sir Pentious's girlfriend?

 

[Mad Hunter]

I think Lilith is only a Jewish thing? All I remember is that she rapes men (including Adam), and makes women have miscarriages. Don’t quote me on that, though.

Ah yes, raping people and causing them to lose children = feminism.

I literally saw a demonology blog thing talking about how Lilith became a symbol of feminism because "muh strong, confident woman ain't under no man." They acknowledged how she was also being bitchy to other innocent women by killing their children and that the people seeing her as a feminist icon should chose another woman from the bible (one of the lady prophets in Judges, I don't remember their names) as a feminist icon instead.

But, of course, Chadbrahamic religions bad, right?

 

[Saxxon]

I really do wonder how someone that got introduced to this show through the Amazon you know, show, can be expected to be engaged with the story and characters when it almost feels a prerequisite to already be familiar with it before even watching like look at all the shit above this post, we are talking Wikipedia levels of backstories, religious knowledgement and callbacks to a fucking webcomic that never got finished and the worst part is that we are not even close to even really understand nothing about the actual plot because WE DON'T EVEN KNOW IF ANY OF THIS CRAP IS CANON DESPITE THE SHOW ACTING AS IT IS.

I really do wonder how the fuck does anyone watch something like Hazbin Hotel in a vacuum and doesn't feel confused as shit?

 

[Mad Hunter]

I really do wonder how someone that got introduced to this show through the Amazon you know, show, can be expected to be engaged with the story and characters when it almost feels a prerequisite to already be familiar with it before even watching like look at all the shit above this post, we are talking Wikipedia levels of backstories, religious knowledgement and callbacks to a fucking webcomic that never got finished and the worst part is that we are not even close to even really understand nothing about the actual plot because WE DON'T EVEN KNOW IF ANY OF THIS CRAP IS CANON DESPITE THE SHOW ACTING AS IT IS.

I really do wonder how the fuck does anyone watch something like Hazbin Hotel in a vacuum and doesn't feel confused as shit?

True. I have said this over and over: why didn't Viv just make it a simple show about the evil devil's good daughter trying to get repentant sinner souls to heaven with no more weird mythical lore?

 

[The tired cat]

I was going to mention ADDICT, but I hesitated because it's debatable if that's something Viv had planned and use the song as an opportunity to tease it... or she made up Cherri's portion exclusively for the video. The guy in the video is based off a Zoophobia character named Izzi.

I wont lie, when I saw Izzis design, I dug it enough to use it for a story Ive been working on.

 

[FK009]

I wont lie, when I saw Izzis design, I dug it enough to use it for a story Ive been working on.

Not a bad call. Honestly, make him an assassin, and he comes off as a guy that will take literal pennies from people if it means putting a bullet through someones head. 50% off if you want it messy and painful.

I literally saw a demonology blog thing talking about how Lilith became a symbol of feminism because "muh strong, confident woman ain't under no man."
***
But, of course, Chadbrahamic religions bad, right?

Thats basically it, especially for those that hate (what they consider to be the white) religion in general. I have a entire branch of atheists in my family, and they absolutely love shit like this (one of their favorite shows was/is Lucifer), and are to this day shocked that the Catholic believes in Catholicism. Even one of their pets was named Lilith.

Actual lore and background to these things don’t matter to them, because they just hone in on one thing and then strip away anything they don’t like or would otherwise be inconvenient. Lilith rebels against her husband and Girl-bosses, and to them that is the greatest virtue in life, so that’s all that matters.

And yes, Chadbrahamic relgion bad, but only the ones that the white people like. The Muslims are all awesome, and have never once done anything wrong, and only Christianity has ever had any effect on the world, and has never once done anything right ever and in fact has made the world a worse place. Also Communism and Socialism awesome.

True. I have said this over and over: why didn't Viv just make it a simple show about the evil devil's good daughter trying to get repentant sinner souls to heaven with no more weird mythical lore?

Same reason everyone took issue with Voodoo being displayed as satanic in the show, it would require them to write and engage with the show with the singular premise that Christianity is correct. If that’s the case, then the shows get super X-phobic really fast, but also they actually would have to engage with the source material that Good and Evil does exist. That your crybaby backstory or shitty situation does in fact not excuse the shitty things you have done, that you have chosen to do. That being Nice, does not equate to being Good. It would also mean that repentance would need some admittance that you were in fact wrong, and that you do need to do better. In the series proper, Snake dude never actually repents of any sins, he just makes a grand gesture. And that is Good to them, a grand gesture.

Go with a more eastern approach to Heaven and Hell akin the Persona or SMT series were they’re essentially the forces of order and chaos, now you have leeway. Now you can make your fujo baits blameless because they’re le sad. Now you can have the literal devil be a goofy goober. Now you can make heaven and a frat bro evil, and invite sin into paradise.

Edit: Also remember, what spurred this was NOT Viv wanting to make a good show, or to share her creation. She wanted to take Hell back for the Gays. Fujo and shipping first, plot later. Honestly the goal of the show (get people to heaven) and the base drive (Reclaim hell for LGBTQLMNOP+-/*123) are kinda at odds with one another. It should not have been shocking war with Heaven where Hell wins happened.

 

[The tired cat]

Not a bad call. Honestly, make him an assassin, and he comes off as a guy that will take literal pennies from people if it means putting a bullet through someones head. 50% off if you want it messy and painful.

Funny thing, that what I did. Well, more like an assassin/bounty hunter, who enjoys hunting various citizens of hell as means of entertaiment and personal sport. Even added him and Striker having a sort of rivalry with each other.

 

[FK009]

Even added him and Striker having a sort of rivalry with each other.

That dynamic actually reminds me of a Fanfic I read called Broken Wings. They’re not the central villains mind you, more like bad guy’s right and left hand, but the dynamic worked from what I recall from it.

 

[Mad Hunter]

They trash Christianity but when it's Islam, somehow, they are so quiet. But, I've seen actual former Muslims highly critical of Islam. Hell, some even say it won't survive the 21st century properly because of progress not aligning with its main ideals (or rather, the ideals of those spreading it). The crazy thing? They're so frightened if they gotta say something about Islam, all religions and beliefs involved (as far as my observations go), but if it's Christianity, they're free to criticize.

And yes, Chadbrahamic relgion bad, but only the ones that the white people like. The Muslims are all awesome

> is atheist
> proceeds to idolize demons from "mumbo-jumbo" lore from the "evil Chrischuds" to the point of naming a pet after her

They should just admit they're satanist.

Also, I swear that a lot of people claiming to be atheist/wiccan/whatever shamanic hoodou-voodoo tend to claim religious abuse or have gone through such abuse, but I'm beginning to notice a trend where lots of "OMG CONVERTED TO ATHEIST SLAY" people tend to have some convenient religious aboos story.

Even one of their pets was named Lilith.

 

[InJailOutSoon]

In the series proper, Snake dude never actually repents of any sins, he just makes a grand gesture. And that is Good to them, a grand gesture.

You know, that's exactly what happened in Helluva Boss. Stolas didn't have to repent for any of the shitty actions he did to Blitzø; just had to save him from being executed. Made a grand gesture. And everything becomes hunky-dory between the two of them (or at least from Blitzø's end). I wouldn't be surprised if the same thing happens with Octavia. Stolas just does some sort of grand gesture for her that makes him "good" in her eyes, and he never has to apologize for any of his actions.

 

[Stumbling7]

I still vaguely remember that old art where Angel Dust and Vaggie were a couple instead of Charlie and Vaggie. Way better dynamic than what we currently have too.

Still the best way to piss off a fandom.

 

[Mad Hunter]

Still the best way to piss off a fandom.
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Remove the message and they'll only be pissed about Angel Dust x Vaggie. Charlastor is very popular. It's hilarious how it got the fans in a split because Alastor is aroace.

Apparently, it's fine if it's non-aroace x aroace (though, according to the genderspecial crap, it's a spectrum that depends on boundaries and attachments), but if it's gay x lesbian, it is not. If the characters are straight, then it's fine to make them gay, but then if the characters are gay, then heaven forbid you from imagining them in straight relationships.

I don't know if Viv actually tweeted it saying something around the lines of "if you wanna ship, just ship because IDGAF if Alastor is ace, Angel is gay, or Valentino is a rapist - just ship and have fun instead of being nasty jerks. It's fiction so have fun." If that's true, then I must give her some credit for that (only if it's true). Well, she favors the yaoi faggotry, though, so I'm doubting.