Russian Special Military Operation in the Ukraine - Mark IV: The Partitioning of Discussion

The expats. They're apparently the most belligerent.
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Or maybe they want the whole ukraine liberated from the grifters who are stealing everything

i have a good friend in Kiev. 2 years ago told him to get the hell out of there, but he decided to stay because he landed a very well paid job with some US pharmaceutical outfit or something of the sort. maybe connected to the network of biolabs there, dont know. or maybe something financed by usaid.

This guy was livid when Russia invaded, now he cant wait to see the green goblin gone and possibly executed. his words: these people are stealing everything

Ukrainian draft-dodgers will continue to be the gift that keeps on giving in the EU for a looong time to come.
to dodge the draft in such stupid and lost since day one war is the smartest thing to do, if you ask me.

However, to go back for holidays... meh. stupid but i guess many of these folks have houses and relatives.

There are many ukrainians here. in my son school there are a few ukr kids.
overall, these people are not a problem, they are mostly families and keep a low profile. many found good jobs because they are well educated,
 
to dodge the draft in such stupid and lost since day one war is the smartest thing to do, if you ask me.
I agree until those people become rabid blood-thirsty pro-war fanatics yelling from afar. I fully support Ukrainian refugees who wanted to prevent this nonsense I just don't think I've ever seen one. Every one I'm aware of cheered for a potential war against Russia, got one, ran away, and now demand people from other countries go die fixing their mess.
 
Democracy european style.
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Or maybe they want the whole ukraine liberated from the grifters who are stealing everything

i have a good friend in Kiev. 2 years ago told him to get the hell out of there, but he decided to stay because he landed a very well paid job with some US pharmaceutical outfit or something of the sort. maybe connected to the network of biolabs there, dont know. or maybe something financed by usaid.

This guy was livid when Russia invaded, now he cant wait to see the green goblin gone and possibly executed. his words: these people are stealing everything


to dodge the draft in such stupid and lost since day one war is the smartest thing to do, if you ask me.

However, to go back for holidays... meh. stupid but i guess many of these folks have houses and relatives.

There are many ukrainians here. in my son school there are a few ukr kids.
overall, these people are not a problem, they are mostly families and keep a low profile. many found good jobs because they are well educated,
Assuming there really were close to 40m Ukrainians before the war, say of those-around 10m-were in the annexed territories and most stayed there. Around close to 15m left after 2/2022. Of the roughly 15m that remained if half of those are Bandera loving Nazi larpers it's a huge problem. I don't think people understand the degree of brainwashing the Ukrainian population underwent even before 1990; there were literally Banderite camps for children beginning in 1992. In the 33 years since that's a lot of brainwashed adults who think Russians are orcs out to get them and that they're some kind of Slav master race.

As far as the ones with refuge status in the West it doesn't matter if they fit in or not, at least in the US. The political climate has changed and we're not taking in everyone that wants to come, whatever the reason, because we're overextended, and in large part it's due to Biden's idiots in the State Department sending billions to the Ukraine. You can even argue that they should go back, because the moderates and educated can be an effective counter to the Banderites as well as the grifters.
 
There are many ukrainians here. in my son school there are a few ukr kids.
overall, these people are not a problem, they are mostly families and keep a low profile. many found good jobs because they are well educated,
While I also support draft dodgers, there’s a solution for that: TEMPORARY residence permits, preferably without the right to work.

These people had no business being here before the war, so why give them a free immigration pass?

And worst of all, take them in and they will always, ALWAYS import their conflicts., and stand and screech incoherently any time a politician wants to talk about Russia.

Just look at Jews and Palestinians.
 
These people had no business being here before the war, so why give them a free immigration pass?
I hate to be racist like that, but life experience - I know, you know.
Except for the rabbit banderites, they're white, civilized and actually educated.
So, there's no cultural barrier to speak of.
Can't be said for many H1b modern day house slaves or the European NAFRI affair.
And they get a pass. Often literally.
 
I agree until those people become rabid blood-thirsty pro-war fanatics yelling from afar. I fully support Ukrainian refugees who wanted to prevent this nonsense I just don't think I've ever seen one. Every one I'm aware of cheered for a potential war against Russia, got one, ran away, and now demand people from other countries go die fixing their mess.
That's an incredibly common phenomenon. Any time you see balkan people autistically screeching and arguing online about their patriotism that has very little to do with the original video or post, you can confidently bet that they're doing so out of their Berlin or New York apartments.

Even in my family the most 'patriotic' members are those that work in Scandinavia and only come back to their home country during the holidays... I don't have a clue what causes such bizarre behavior.
 
I agree until those people become rabid blood-thirsty pro-war fanatics yelling from afar. I fully support Ukrainian refugees who wanted to prevent this nonsense I just don't think I've ever seen one. Every one I'm aware of cheered for a potential war against Russia, got one, ran away, and now demand people from other countries go die fixing their mess.
Poisonous ideologies always have their wolves whom feast on children and wander into the hunters sights, and also their rats whom flee and howl as if they were wolves.

should add that neoconservatism is literally an ideology comprised entirely of rats. It's a freak of history.
 
Even in my family the most 'patriotic' members are those that work in Scandinavia and only come back to their home country during the holidays... I don't have a clue what causes such bizarre behavior.
There seems to be a phenomena with immigrants, whether temporary or permanent, where you either become more patriotic about your native country and its culture or you just get assimilated into the host country. Maybe overgeneralizing, but it makes clear sense to me.
 
There seems to be a phenomena with immigrants, whether temporary or permanent, where you either become more patriotic about your native country and its culture or you just get assimilated into the host country. Maybe overgeneralizing, but it makes clear sense to me.
This phenomenon typically revolves around the number of immigrants and the society that they have moved to.

If there is a small trickle of them compared to the general population then they will quickly blend in, and by the time their children grow up they will be indistinguishable from everyone else. If there is enough of them to forming ethnic enclaves then the opposite will happen and they will retain their culture because there would be no surrounding one to assimilate into.

On a societal basis if the culture doesn't hate itself and is proud then you will see a far higher rate of successful assimilation because the immigrants will see it as prestigious to do so. If the culture is self doubting or hates itself then immigrants will tend to stick to their old identity.

Two good examples would be American blacks. Immediately after the civil war a fair amount moved to the North but instantly began to assimilate with such success that a bunch of places had willingly ended segregation since they saw them as equal... But then a bunch of other blacks who had stayed in the South saw them and said "Me wants dat magic durt" and flooded them with new arrivals until they dragged the successful blacks down with them.
Morbidly enough this period also had a bunch of Northern born blacks telling the new arrivals to stop acting like apes because they would ruin it for everyone by proving their stereotypes and (correctly) predicted that the return of segregation would be the response.

Similarly after ww2 some black soldiers moved to Germany and raised families there. Their children perfectly assimilated into the surrounding German culture and studies peformed on them found they were in terms of every metric (academic peformance, crime, etc) the same as everyone else in the country... But then the EU began population replacement and their quality as a communinity quickly nosedived.
 
I hate to be racist like that, but life experience - I know, you know.
Except for the rabbit banderites, they're white, civilized and actually educated.
So, there's no cultural barrier to speak of.
Can't be said for many H1b modern day house slaves or the European NAFRI affair.
And they get a pass. Often literally.
Are white immigrants preferable over Arabs, Indians and Blacks.

For sure. Definitely. 100%.

But… Nevermind that a Ukrainian minority will 100% be a vocal minority screeching to punish Russia any chance they get.

They’re just not productive citizens. For every one Hohol you know who have managed to get a job and put their kids in school, I guaranfuckingtee that there are two or three drunks who do fuck all but drink vodka and get in fights.

If you’re ever in my country, I’ll take you to some of the centers and hotels where they warehouse these cabbageniggers.

They seem to come in three categories as I’ve said before.

1. Old babushkas, living at the public teet at ten times the expense they would in Ukraine.

2. Young and middle aged men, unemployed, alcoholics. (I assume they could have had a job in Ukraine, but here employers tend to sort out unshaven people who smell like booze and are chronically late.)

3. Single moms who have gotten a job in a supermarket, put their kid in a school and waiting to find some local dumb enough to marry them.

TLDR: Ukrainian refugees are better than Afghan. But NO REFUGEES is even better!

PS; If there’s a reason I’m extra salty about houol refugees, it’s because I’ve seen what the government pays to house them in a hotel. We’re talking about around 100 Euros PER Hohol PER DAY. Plus whatever pocket money they give them, despite the fact that they already pay the hotel THOUSANDS of Euros every month to hire a cook to make them dinner and lunch every day. Taxpayer money totally wasted to warehouse people who’d be perfectly safe in Lviv or Kiev.


EDIT: While Zelensky tries to hustle Trump with non existent minerals and Macron tries to shame Trump into falling in line, Putin knows how to speak to Don’s businessman-heart.

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“I hear you want to bring back manufacturing Don? Won’t you need aluminum for that? Perhaps a joint venture?”
 
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Even in my family the most 'patriotic' members are those that work in Scandinavia and only come back to their home country during the holidays... I don't have a clue what causes such bizarre behavior.
It's a coping mechanism, they feel unpatriotic by proving (with their actions) their country is actually a shithole where they can't earn a living wage or live a normal life, so they overcompensate by projecting this extreme patriotic mask.
 
I guess the hope for the Ukrainian side of this deal is that the US is invested in what Ukraine has left and will hopefully prevent them from losing even more? But as of now the war is still ongoing, and this deal is largely for post war reconstruction and actions to be taken after the war ends...

At least the USA gets their wish to be involved in European oil by getting a cut of any energy infrastructure that might go through Ukraine.
 
At least the USA gets their wish to be involved in European oil by getting a cut of any energy infrastructure that might go through Ukraine.
It's a rather lopsided deal, to be honest. America acquires shares in Ukrainian infrastructure, invests Ukrainian half of the profits into upgrading and maintaining it, and keeps the American half of the profits for itself.

Ukraine ends up with no rights to its infrastructure (it belongs to America due to the shares) and no dividends (they are invested in upgrading said American-owned infrastructure), so America gets to keep all the actual profits.

It's colonization 101, really. China is doing the same to Africa.
 
While I also support draft dodgers, there’s a solution for that: TEMPORARY residence permits, preferably without the right to work.

These people had no business being here before the war, so why give them a free immigration pass?

And worst of all, take them in and they will always, ALWAYS import their conflicts., and stand and screech incoherently any time a politician wants to talk about Russia.

Just look at Jews and Palestinians.
the ukros that came here after feb 2022 got a limited permit with no possibility to work, but those who get a job, some company got them a B permit.
so they are good to go.they are not a problem, and with 25% of swiss residents not being swiss, and as there is a large slav community, including russians, they blend quite well. never heard of any trouble from these folks.

as i said, could be the fact that being Switzerland what it is, you wont get riffraff here.
There seems to be a phenomena with immigrants, whether temporary or permanent, where you either become more patriotic about your native country and its culture or you just get assimilated into the host country. Maybe overgeneralizing, but it makes clear sense to me.
As Blondie would put it, you see, in this world there's two kinds of immigrants, my friend. :tomgirl:

those who emigrate, but as soon as they make enough money or whatever, they go back where they came from. they usually dont integrate. i know folks who are here 30 years and they dont speak a word of german.

and those who emigrate and will not go back. im the second type. my german still sucks but thats another story...

those who leave and dont plan to go back to all intents and purposes abandoned their original citizenship, and they are usually very little patriotic, if that.

if there was a war in italy, i couldnt care less.
my kids will do the swiss military service.
 
Full text of the agreement is now public:
Well this is fascinating. I've been very curious to see what the agreement actually was because like everyone else I've been scratching my head a little trying to answer the two questions: "What's in it for the USA?" and "What's in it for Ukraine?" The latter question being partially answerable already by the counter-question: "What choice does Ukraine have?"

And of course the missing third question: "What's in it for Russia" has had a provisional answer all along which is that Russia presumably gets what it wanted from the outset: no NATO troops on its borders and Crimea, now with added Donbass.

So... despite his idiosyncratic manner of speaking, Trump is actually a smart man. And despite the endless accusations about "losing money" and "bankruptcies" from the Left, he's an experienced businessman as well. So its good practice if something looks stupid to me to wonder if maybe I'm the one whose missing something. Now that we have the full text, I think this actually looks quite advantageous for America. The key is that it's not as greedy as it might be (to begin with). America could demand restitution for all its given and put the squeeze on. But I think Trump is well aware that Ukraine can't do that. He's also aware that he can't just force Z-man to sign something under duress and expect it to still be honoured once Z-man is executed by Banderites out of power further down the line. As an aside, I had to have a grim laugh at that line about ensuring those who caused the war shouldn't profit from it. America is more responsible than anyone else (though Bongland comes a very close second).

Here's what it seems to me that the USA gets out of this. The fund might direct a lot of its returns directly back into Ukraine itself but there are two big factors at play here. The first is that with US strong oversight, it can cut down on graft majorly. I know how funny that is to type given things like Hunter Biden's board position at Burisma and cuts for "the big man", etc. But corruption in Ukraine is endemic in a way it isn't in the USA and its that corruption that really enabled the Bidens to use it for money laundering so extensively. US dominance in this fund can mean, well, if not no corruption, none of the wrong kind of corruption. I.e. native corruption. It can still give big fat contracts to the well-connected American, but it's not going to be everybody at every step up the ladder taking their cut and robbing each other blind the way it is in the Ukie military and govt. right now. They can move the whole of the Ukranian reconstruction industry more towards an American model. Secondly, this is going to make the USA the single dominant business partner to the Ukraine, edging out Western Europe AND with those lines about sanctions, Russia.

So in short, whilst many of us were probably expecting some major immediate kickbacks to the USA, I think this is very smart long-term thinking (if it works). It'll buy off Russia from interfering by giving Russia chunks of the East, Crimea and whatever neutrality assurances it wants (for the timebeing). So Russia gains. Maybe Russia could gain more but that would also come with more risk. Maybe they'll be able to negotiate a loosening of sanctions with the USA for accepting this as well, though I think the USA would be more willing to give away parts of Ukraine than give up sanctions. Europe, which has long been the USA's actual rival, ends up dependent on the USA for energy and - if they restore Ukraine's status as breadbasket of Europe - affordable food. They will no longer be able to turn to Russia for these things because with the USA or Ukraine willing to blow up Europe's pipelines, these things more or less need to come through the Ukraine territory. And finally, the USA will as mentioned be getting the lucrative resources of Ukraine and infrastructure deals. And Ukraine loses its national identity over the coming decades.

Trump is a negotiator. He's actually willing to let the other side have things, so long as he gets more. Ukraine probably will benefit in many ways from this deal - an end to the war, trade with the USA, a priveleged position in trade against Western Europe on food and energy, which they wouldn't have otherwise. They'll just be bound to the USA by golden chains going forward. Russia will remain something of a pariah because this will help the USA block reconcilliation between Russia and Europe. And Western Europe will lose out the most but they'll all scurry back to the USA in hopes of currying favour over their rivals.

The biggest risk to this is probably Russia not being bought off by this sufficiently. They are winning the war after all and don't have to stop. But this is more a matter of how much they have to be given than whether they can be persuaded to agree at all. Russia never really wanted this war after all and only invaded when they were finally backed into a corner.

Another factor against would be Banderites and Azov types who resist US colonialism. But without foreign backing (from whom would they get this? Russia - ha ha!) they'd be expected to wither away over time.

That's my take having read the whole thing, anyway.
 
I'm wondering if the end result of any agreements is that Russia opens trade with America and does some compensation, with America getting completely out and uninvolved in the region and not bailing out Europe if they decide to play silly buggers and start WWIII
 
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