Russian Special Military Operation in the Ukraine - Mark IV: The Partitioning of Discussion

There seems to be a real surge of "America is the good guy" in this thread. For me, little has changed. It is now time to carve up Ukraine as far as the USA is concerned, and the USA is furious with Kiev for not being okay with that. But now it is Trump in the White House, blame all falls on Zelensky and how he dresses. As if Trump is actually deciding foreign policy based on a lack of tie. Frankly, if he were that would not be a mark in Trump's favour.
ukraine and russia are corrupt slav shitholes so america is the good guy by default. when ukrops bring up the 93 nuke disarmament, they forget how corrupt ukraine is and how the world cant coexist with tiny 3rd world shitholes with nukes.
I don't think Ukraine can trust the USA's firm handshake gentleman's agreement. History amply proves that. The agreement as written, i.e. without any security guarantees, is an agreement that would only be enforced at the will of the party that had the monopoly on force. I.e. the USA
thanks to europe's relaxed social policies, we are ukraine's only reliable benefactor; so we make the terms.

If ukraine wanted it any other way, then the millions of ukrainians who left should've stayed and worked on the homefront and military.
 
"Euros continue to whine about having zero agency, wonder why everything sucks"

Never gets old guys lmao.

Literally all it takes for Europeans to be against a populist is to claim they're a Russian asset or a Nazi. But nooooo, its 100% America's fault. All we did was continue the standard European status quo, just with less blowing stuff up.
 
Don't like it? Just stay, get bombed, and die, lol. Yeah right
Here’s the thing about Ukraine: It’s a BIG country.

It’s also a country where 80% is untouched by war. If you talk a walk in Kiev or Lvov, you wouldn’t be able to tell it apart from Warsaw or Berlin. (Aside from an occasional air alert, but even then you got nothing to worry about unless they set up a Patriot launcher right outside your house. Which they don’t.)

Millions of Ukrainians didn’t leave because of the war. Even those who got evacuated from the frontline could easily have been accommodated in the West of Ukraine.

Millions of Ukrainians left, USING THE WAR AS AN EXCUSE, because they know their country is a corrupt shithole, and because they know their own government will fuck them. Hard. War or no war.

Just look at polling among Ukrainians who left. The majority isn’t planning to come back, even if there’s peace.
 
From one another. Europe since the end of WWII has existed in two deeply artificial states - first, as a proxy battleground in a simmering conflict between two great powers, then, as a collective vassal to one great power. Both of these seem to have made Europeans forget how security works. If spending money on the military to gain increased influence is on the table, then everyone will need to engage in security competition to survive. This is what Europe is deathly afraid of, and why there are now talks, however absurd, about an EU Army. You have completely forgotten what it's like for France to be leery towards Germany, for England to view Spanish interests as a threat. But that's what most of European history has been. Having an outside power provide security removes the possibility of security competition among European powers, which allows them to invest in welfare services and other largesse which they have now become completely reliant on - not the mention the fifth column welfare leeches which have infested every European polity,
A little healthy competition between neighbours is good for both parties. Historically, the USA's military involvement in affairs has made things worse, not better. WWI would have ended in 1916 if J P Morgan hadn't been worried about not getting his loans repaid. And if that American money hadn't poured in in the first place in hopes of a fat RoI, it probably would have ended sooner still.

The only real war Europe faces is between its Elites and its peoples. And the USA has been on the side of the former for a long time now.

Millions of Ukrainians left, USING THE WAR AS AN EXCUSE, because they know their country is a corrupt shithole, and because they know their own government will fuck them.
Their own government? Or the USA's proxy government which Victoria Nuland put in place after Ukranians voted the wrong way? And helped keep in power, funnelling money and NGO support to Azov and other Banderites?
 
The President of Finland offered Trump and Zelensky to solve the conflict in a sauna

Alexander Stubb in an interview with Bloomberg TV suggested that the leaders "take a deep breath, take a cold bath, visit a sauna and return to the negotiating table."

He believes the fossil agreement could be a turning point, creating economic interest in Ukraine for Trump and opening the way for peace talks


Personally, I suggest Putin as a mediator in peace talks between Trump and Zelensky
 
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A little healthy competition between neighbours is good for both parties.
Maybe once an equilibrium is established, like that which existed post-Westphalia. But establishing that equilibrium is a costly, bloody process. Look at what happened after Rome fell to see what happens to Europe in a power vacuum.

Historically, the USA's military involvement in affairs has made things worse, not better. WWI would have ended in 1916 if J P Morgan hadn't been worried about not getting his loans repaid. And if that American money hadn't poured in in the first place in hopes of a fat RoI, it probably would have ended sooner still.
Not saying that American influence has been necessarily good for Europe in the long run, but more that Europe is reliant on it in deep, structural ways. It may not be good that someone shot up heroin for ten years but it's still a fact that going cold turkey at that point will likely kill them.

The only real war Europe faces is between its Elites and its peoples. And the USA has been on the side of the former for a long time now.
It's precisely the elites freaking out, because the EU is a hothouse flower that will wither outside the US security umbrella. The very powers which are least equipped to rearm are the ones who dominate the politics of the EU right now. Meanwhile, more peripheral powers who feel the threat of foreign diplomatic pressure more keenly would stand to rearm much faster - and those countries are also more homogenous and thus more likely to actually be able staff their armed forces with loyal recruits. When you tell someone with much bigger guns than yours what to do, they tend to tell you to fuck off. Only in a world without security competition do the Eurocrats hold any power over their continent, without it centrifugal forces would quickly either weaken the union or outright dismantle it.
 
I can see this playing out. Starmer and the rest of the GAE and EU Rats crying!

Except with Starmer there won’t by any phone banging or booth kicking.
He’ll just sit down in his cuck chair in the corner and have a real good, womanly weep.
Nah. I always chuckle when I see Starmer being wound up as some kind of mastermind.

The guy is a moron. He sent 100 Labour campaign workers to help Kamala when EVERYONE could see which way the wind was blowing.

He’s the kind of stooge that the men in smoke filled rooms agree on setting up/running as a PM. Pretty presentable, decent looking. Very, very average IQ, and zero charisma so it’s easy to dump him again if he against all odds would start developing ideas of his own.

A man so average that he’s OWNED since he could never rise beyond a medium tier position on his own.

Starmer will be the last one to acknowledge any changes in the facts of the ground, since his IQ and pre-programming won’t allow him to change course.
 
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