Not Just Bikes / r/fuckcars / Urbanists / New Urbanism / Car-Free / Anti-Car - People and grifters who hate personal transport, freedom, cars, roads, suburbs, and are obsessed with city planning and urban design

[TowinKarz]

Elon said today that Amtrak should be privatized. Predictably, /r/fuckcars is pissed:
Link in Post (Archive)

I know it's rhetorical, but, do they realize that Amtrak does not run inner-city commuter services? Those are run by state and municipal agencies? Like CalTrans and Metra? And that Amtrak has almost no effect on urban congestion whatsoever? In that if it got nuked tonight? 90% of people who use a train to get to work wouldn't notice in the morning?

Also, while privatizing Amtrak is likely unsustainable that was the original goal as to why it was even created in the first place, if congresscritters of the 1970s KNEW that Amtrak would just be an albatross forever, it never would've been created.

What they really wanted was to nationalize the entire rail network in the entire US. Not a strong majority, more like a small vocal minority. Fortunately for us? Being it was the 70's, and with the USSR still around? The word "nationalization" was a bit too close to "Communism" for some congresscritters who got a bit gunshy about pulling the trigger. And opted for a more mixed bag approach.

In it? We got public ownership of passenger rail and freight in just the Northeast and eastern midwest as about 15 or so bankrupt freight lines that had all binned it within the same narrow window (about 72' - 75') in that region were cobbled together into "Consolidated Rail" (Conrail) by congressional action. The rest of the nation's private railroads weren't in great shape either, but, they managed to be robust enough to oppose full nationalization. More importantly? With the state of rail now being a public concern? They were able to get a much needed deregulation bill through that ended a lot of outdated 19th Century practices including the setting of freight rates that had made it near impossible for them to compete with OTR trucking.

By 78' (IIRC) Conrail (making full use of said deregulation) had decided what in their inherited mish-mash of lines was needed and what was duplication or waste, was allowed to cut service/abandon lines and was actually turning a profit.

At that point? And also thanks to deregulation? So were a lot of other railroads who had pulled off their own series of private mergers and acquisitions of smaller lines that couldn't stand on their own anymore, largely eliminating the appetite and pressing need for radical nationalization.

Thus, Conrail, as the odd one out? Was sold back to the industry as a publicly-traded company, and that left just the perpetually money-losing Amtrak to remain a public ward forevermore as long-distance passenger service in this country fundamentally cannot turn a profit for reasons we've gone over many times before.

 

[Xarpho's Return]

But there are so many Third Places to walk to in NYC? I don't understand?

Yeah NO SHIT apartments aren't meant for socializing. He probably knows all this and will still cry about suburbs and their spare rooms and spacious interiors and neighborhood cookouts.

Even suburban apartment complexes (which urbanists deny exist) often (not always, depends on where and when it was built) have some large common area attached to the leasing office.

 

[IdiotPlusPlus]

We got public ownership of passenger rail and freight in just the Northeast and eastern midwest as about 15 or so bankrupt freight lines that had all binned it within the same narrow window (about 72' - 75')

My understanding was that the whole thing was caused by the govt essentially force merging the almost bankrupt PRR and NYCRR creating Penn Central which then went immediately bankrupt(largest prior to Enron)

Amtrak and Conrail were created and took over as govt owned operations as last ditch effort to prevent a collapse of the East coast rail and a massive hit to the economy it would cause, and they were split because passenger services were needed but loss making, and Conrail could be reprivatised once it recovered as it was still profitable.

West coast RR saw an opportunity to dump passenger services on the govt and so took it by supporting Amtrak even through they weren't in as much trouble as Penn Central

The whole saga is interesting as hell(my favorite parts are executives with blackmail sex pics of other executives, an illegally owned airline, and a armed standoff at a office between a manger and the creditors representative xD)

 

[TowinKarz]

My understanding was that the whole thing was caused by the govt essentially force merging the almost bankrupt PRR and NYCRR creating Penn Central which then went immediately bankrupt(largest prior to Enron)

They didn't quite force that merger, Penn Central had already happened in the late 60's But, as a condition of approving the merger? The Government HAD forced PC to also absorb the New Haven railroad, which was already bankrupt by the late 50's and had been living off a fed lifeline to keep New England commuter rail alive. Making PC start life with an albatross already around their neck.

Congress also definitely turned a deaf ear to repeated requests by PC to get out from under red tape that was forcing them in some cases to keep parallel lines active when they only needed one (The NYC and PRR had been historic rivals and had operated as direct competitors on the same routes, once they merged? Their new system was grossly inefficient and just duplicating services). Complicating matters were the poor state of track and equipment after years of deferred maintenance.

Their respective physical plants and technical infrastructure were also largely incompatible.... NYC was big on modernization and had been a first-adopter for diesel power AND computerized tracking and control. By contrast? The PRR had lagged behind due to it being a conservative company with a long history, who had accordingly thought itself too big to fail. Their century of success to that point also meant a lot of legacy union contracts, held over from more prosperous days, that they were having a hard time coming up with cash to honor as things got tight.

And finally? When the central offices of both companies were consolidated? There was a lot of bad blood and infighting over keeping hard-won executive positions. The NYC had favored promoting on merit, while PRR had favored old-fashioned seniority, the inevitable workplace culture clash led to situations where you probably had personal beefs with your direct superior, while your direct underlings, in turn, had it out for you. Meanwhile? Your entire department was likely operating in a silo due to lateral distrust of anyone else in the building for similar reasons, creating massive dysfunction in which corruption was easy to justify and get away with.

Amtrak and Conrail were created and took over as govt owned operations as last ditch effort to prevent a collapse of the East coast rail and a massive hit to the economy it would cause, and they were split because passenger services were needed but loss making, and Conrail could be reprivatised once it recovered as it was still profitable.

West coast RR saw an opportunity to dump passenger services on the govt and so took it by supporting Amtrak even through they weren't in as much trouble as Penn Central

Once the freeway system reached maturity in the early 60's? I don't think a single passenger route in the country was making a profit, they were eager to dump. Sole exception? Maybe the Northeast Corridor.

The whole saga is interesting as hell(my favorite parts are executives with blackmail sex pics of other executives, an illegally owned airline, and a armed standoff at a office between a manger and the creditors representative xD)

The problems inside Penn Central were legendarily bad. Its estimated that between gross profits in and expenditures out? The company never had more than maybe $5,000 (of 1960s dollars) of liquid capital in the bank. And that was on top of scummy execs playing games and floating huge loans to each other, with the collateral being a railroad that was worth millions on paper, but, in reality? Had only enough cash on hand to cover the next 48 hours of operations.

 

[Yamamura]

This got posted to /n/ recently

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hltTG3bIClA

View attachment 7059856

It's complaining about the Amazon cargo bikes in the bike lanes. The mealy-mouthed soy creature making the video tries to paint them as "not bicycles" just because they're larger and "take up the entire bike lane"

In addition to not realizing that congestion pricing is the reason why these are out in full force, it's basically being hypocrisy at the highest order, not just pointing out the Amazon cargo bikes running red lights.

One of the "solutions" the soy creature points out is a "wider bike lane", LITERALLY becoming the whole "just one more lane bro" stereotype.

This is the logical end conclusion of their goals. They wanted a world without cars where cargo bikes deliver everything and they got it. I said it before but these "cargo bikes" always are slower evolving cars because the car is the ultimate design of transportation.

Delivery companies will always be able to use these loopholes because if they started banning bikes with more than 2 wheels from the bike lane they would get reprimanded for being ableist. And if they banned the bike lane being used for commercial use they would affect the lower class workers who do food delivery.

The only reason before they could brag about car traffic not moving and bikes passing cars was because nobody uses the fucking bike lane. As soon as it becomes the only option of course you're going to get the same congestion you see with other things. Same as public transport you have loads of people jamming up the system.

 

[reptile baht spaniard rid]

I know it's rhetorical, but, do they realize that Amtrak does not run inner-city commuter services?

Amtrak does OPERATE some of those, and does run some successful short-range inter-city lines that commuters do use.

What kills Amtrak is the same reason all the freight rails loved it; the unprofitable long distance lines.

Amusingly the only profitable long-distance line is the (drumroll) carloving Auto Train!

 

[Xarpho's Return]

What they really wanted was to nationalize the entire rail network in the entire US. Not a strong majority, more like a small vocal minority. Fortunately for us? Being it was the 70's, and with the USSR still around? The word "nationalization" was a bit too close to "Communism" for some congresscritters who got a bit gunshy about pulling the trigger. And opted for a more mixed bag approach.

In it? We got public ownership of passenger rail and freight in just the Northeast and eastern midwest as about 15 or so bankrupt freight lines that had all binned it within the same narrow window (about 72' - 75') in that region were cobbled together into "Consolidated Rail" (Conrail) by congressional action. The rest of the nation's private railroads weren't in great shape either, but, they managed to be robust enough to oppose full nationalization. More importantly? With the state of rail now being a public concern? They were able to get a much needed deregulation bill through that ended a lot of outdated 19th Century practices including the setting of freight rates that had made it near impossible for them to compete with OTR trucking.

By 78' (IIRC) Conrail (making full use of said deregulation) had decided what in their inherited mish-mash of lines was needed and what was duplication or waste, was allowed to cut service/abandon lines and was actually turning a profit.

At that point? And also thanks to deregulation? So were a lot of other railroads who had pulled off their own series of private mergers and acquisitions of smaller lines that couldn't stand on their own anymore, largely eliminating the appetite and pressing need for radical nationalization.

Thus, Conrail, as the odd one out? Was sold back to the industry as a publicly-traded company, and that left just the perpetually money-losing Amtrak to remain a public ward forevermore as long-distance passenger service in this country fundamentally cannot turn a profit for reasons we've gone over many times before.

There's this whole thing that /r/fuckcars has with trains, that they aren't used more because Amtrak isn't extensive enough, etc. and that nationalizing and expanding would mean people would go on trains more before Big Car brainwashed them.

The problem is that whatever sentiment of riding trains instead of cars and planes exists, is small enough to be uneconomical. I don't believe there's anything stopping one of the Class I freight train corporations to run their own passenger service. You can't run the idea that "people want to ride trains" and "the corporations are just greedy" simultaneously. If, say, Union Pacific, found that there was a market for passenger rail and added them to hauls, allowing you to go from San Francisco to New Orleans (it covers a good part of the United States west of the Mississippi) cheaper/better than what Amtrak could offer, they would.

The problems inside Penn Central were legendarily bad. Its estimated that between gross profits in and expenditures out? The company never had more than maybe $5,000 (of 1960s dollars) of capital in the bank. And that was on top of scummy execs playing games and floating huge loans to each other, with the collateral being a railroad that had only 48 hours of operation left, maximum, at any given time before they'd literally run out of money.

The Wikipedia page is fascinating, if a little amateurish at points ("A lot of people at the railroad hated him.") and the company seemed like it was run completely terribly, probably one of these situations where it was only on inertia; meanwhile, they still played the diversification game like a bunch of corporations did that in that era with industries they had no business being in, like Six Flags (which was kept until 1982, after the government took away the railroad from them).

This came to a head just before Christmas of 1973 as Moore had been taking a Metroliner from D.C. to Philadelphia, when the train stopped just outside of the tunnel into Baltimore. 20 coal hoppers had derailed in the tunnel, and Moore went to the train telephone to tell the division superintendent he wanted it cleared in an hour. After an hour he went back to the phone, and fired the superintendent on the spot. Following this an engineer in another train phoned in to say "Merry Christmas to you, too, you son of a bitch." Moore then realized he had accidentally routed the call over the P.A. system, and everything had been played over the loudspeaker in every car.

Heh.

 

[TowinKarz]

There's this whole thing that /r/fuckcars has with trains, that they aren't used more because Amtrak isn't extensive enough, etc. and that nationalizing and expanding would mean people would go on trains more before Big Car brainwashed them.

Its a fundamental belief that disuse of a service by the public can only ever be blamed on the company offering the service not advertising enough, and not genuine public disinterest....Just more shades of that leftist idea that there are no truly unpopular leftist positions, only insufficiently educated normies. And no such thing as unwanted leftist programs, only poorly-funded ones....

They have no answer for why Amtrak has, despite already being a nationalized public transport entity? Only lost routes and trains over time instead of getting more.... it's not that the public doesn't care for long distance train travel, you just haven't done enough to MAKE them care.

Heh

Not to drag this board into a train history one, but, the Well There's Your Problem podcast did a three part streaming series on the absolute cluster that was Penn Central.

(By comparison? Their show on the Titanic was only two)

"Merry Christmas to you, too, you son of a bitch." Moore then realized he had accidentally routed the call over the P.A. system, and everything had been played over the loudspeaker in every car.

Its literal hours of anecdotes like this, highlighting gross incompetence at every level: Like trains getting delayed so much? The crews ran out of duty hours (like pilots, they have maximum limits) somewhere in Ohio? And just parking it on a siding and walking home? Carloads of perishables rotting because clerical errors erased their existence in the system? Executives buying expensive gifts for the "booth babes" at car shows on company credit? That kind of stuff.

It's worth checking out if it sounds interesting.

 

[IdiotPlusPlus]

If, say, Union Pacific, found that there was a market for passenger rail and added them to hauls, allowing you to go from San Francisco to New Orleans (it covers a good part of the United States west of the Mississippi) cheaper/better than what Amtrak could offer, they would.

That's one of those odd things with US Railroads, they seem to have a pathological hated of passengers, they've been caught multiple times stopping profitable passenger services just because they don't want to run them.

Union Pacific is notorious for blatantly telling their booking agents to refuse to sell tickets on a popular SF-LA day train by saying it was booked out(when it wasn't) till patronage fell and they could tell the regulator 'nobody uses it, it's unprofitable' so they could cancel it.

Back on topic tho, I feel like most urbanists who promote trains have never commuted regularly on them, I used to do an hour each way on the suburban trains and it's draining to lose basically 3-4 hours a day commuting (driving wasn't much quicker and was more expensive, both options turned 9-5 into 7-7), vs now where I have a 10-15 drive.

The complaints about the Amazon bikes really underlines in the end they aren't really for what they say they are, they just hate being inconvenienced by working class people, they are the hipster version of the spaceship fatties from wall-e, and anything that interferes with that bubble or questions their self important midwit takes drives them insane.

 

[Xarpho's Return]

Carloads of perishables rotting because clerical errors erased their existence in the system? That kind of stuff.

It's worth checking out if it sounds interesting.

The Wikipedia article did mention a bunch of potatoes rotting for days. The whole "food in trains" issue (excepting bulk, dry goods like sugar or grain) always seemed like a foreign concept to me because there's no way to really efficiently load and unload them, and for everything else the quantity is far too small for trains to be useful.

Apparently, refrigerated train cars exist and made a brief comeback in the 2000s with Railex, but even that seems to have been fad and Union Pacific later bought the company and shut it down a few years later.

That's one of those odd things with US Railroads, they seem to have a pathological hated of passengers, they've been caught multiple times stopping profitable passenger services just because they don't want to run them.

Union Pacific is notorious for blatantly telling their booking agents to refuse to sell tickets on a popular SF-LA day train by saying it was booked out(when it wasn't) till patronage fell and they could tell the regulator 'nobody uses it, it's unprofitable' so they could cancel it.

Is that actually true? Urbanists will say outright bullshit to further their point (such as the "GM streetcar conspiracy"), and a quick read on Wikipedia indicates that it was Southern Pacific that owned the track on the Coast Line. SP was bought by Union Pacific in 1996, at which point passenger line would've been discontinued for years.

 

[Bonesjones]

That's one of those odd things with US Railroads, they seem to have a pathological hated of passengers, they've been caught multiple times stopping profitable passenger services just because they don't want to run them.

Why would you use freight lines capable of carrying hundreds of thousands of tons of material for shitty busses instead, for a tenth of the money? It's just basic logistics. I know some people who work at a local mine and a single train car carries the same load as multiple 18 wheelers. Its just basic economics and optimization. Passenger trains are replaced by 5 other forms of transportation, freight trains aren't.

The complaints about the Amazon bikes really underlines in the end they aren't really for what they say they are, they just hate being inconvenienced by working class people, they are the hipster version of the spaceship fatties from wall-e, and anything that interferes with that bubble or questions their self important midwit takes drives them insane.

They hate being confronted with reality and all the logistic efforts and responsibility it implies. Living on the internet and ordering nothing but door dash helps them not have to face the fact that they are garbage people with no reason to live.

 

[TowinKarz]

The Wikipedia article did mention a bunch of potatoes rotting for days. The whole "food in trains" issue (excepting bulk, dry goods like sugar or grain) always seemed like a foreign concept to me because there's no way to really efficiently load and unload them, and for everything else the quantity is far too small for trains to be useful.

Apparently, refrigerated train cars exist and made a brief comeback in the 2000s with Railex, but even that seems to have been fad and Union Pacific later bought the company and shut it down a few years later.

They're still in use. Every mixed freight that goes by my house has one or two "reefers" in it. Loading is done same as by semi truck - they're boxed and palletized so you just need a forklift. The inside of a boxcar looks identical to that of a truck trailer, they aren't being loaded loose.

Unit trains (one train of only one type of car/cargo) of perishables rarely happens, the "Juice Train" that ran Tropicana's orange juice up the coast from Florida as an express service being the only one I can remember in my lifetime that was. But it was discontinued a few years ago.

But for as long as I've been watching the trains, there's always been some movement of frozen goods, and likely always will be.

What's happened over time is the railroads have moved more towards shipping raw materials, and trucks have moved more towards finished goods for last-mile service.

If you're running an industrial-scale bakery? The flour is likely to come in by rail in loose bulk, but the loaves of bread are likely to be taken to store via truck as neat, stacked, pallet loads.

All the industry served by my local railroad operates that way... as a truck-to-rail bridge in the system.

Plastic granules in by train car ---> Plastic bags out by truck
Tar oil in by tank car ---> Asphalt out by tri-axle
Sand in by hopper car ---> Glass products out by truck

The only exception is a limestone mine where the "bridge" isn't local but off at some distant steel plant (lime is used to remove impurities during the blasting process) but I'm sure wherever it is? The finished rolled steel goes out by truck.

 

[Return of the Freaker]

The only exception is a limestone mine where the "bridge" isn't local but off at some distant steel plant (lime is used to remove impurities during the blasting process) but I'm sure wherever it is? The finished rolled steel goes out by truck.

If you mean steel coils, I've seen those shipped by rail and truck. Probably dependant on infrastructure in the area and how close the user/storage of the steel coils is.

 

[TowinKarz]

If you mean steel coils, I've seen those shipped by rail and truck. Probably dependant on infrastructure in the area and how close the user/storage of the steel coils is.

Yeah, if anyone ever sees a big mobile butter dish on rails?

That's moving steel coils


But all this talk just proves the point again - the fuck cars people really don't understand what roads are for and that they have a use beyond "selfish" private auto, because our agricultural/industrial systems require it, and as long as they do? Might as well let everyone use it.

I mean, how to they propose moving those steel coils by bike?

Even the most strident "I can haul a plasma TV on my handlebars" biker is going to have to admit defeat on that one.....

I've said it before and I'll say it again, the hardcore bikephiles? Deep down inside? I don't think they really know what an 18 wheeler or freight train does or where they go, they just see them as enemies in a video game: an obstacle to overcome/remove.

 

[Return of the Freaker]

Yeah, if anyone ever sees a big mobile butter dish on rails?

That's moving steel coils

Guess we know Nick Rekeita's favorite train car

Edit

But all this talk just proves the point again - the fuck cars people really don't understand what roads are for and that they have a use beyond "selfish" private auto, because our agricultural/industrial systems require it, and as long as they do? Might as well let everyone use it.

I mean, how to they propose moving those steel coils by bike?

I've frequently seen them suggest that there shouldn't be truck haullage and everything should be by train and there should be rail spurs everywhere for freight. Any place that uses steel coils should have a spur to offload them

 

[BulkForceFive]

Some of his other videos:

why do urbanists keep getting outed as disgusting looking cretins??? "I'm a fat-faced soylennial with zoomer hair who moved to NYC on a whim, why don't any of the locals want to be my friend?" Damn what a mystery.

 

[quaawaa]

Aspiring urban planner wants to know if playing Cities: Skylines will prepare him for grad school:

Source (Archive)

 

[The Jewel of the Nile]

Alcoholism, you say...

 

[Road Work Ahead]

I've frequently seen them suggest that there shouldn't be truck haullage and everything should be by train and there should be rail spurs everywhere for freight. Any place that uses steel coils should have a spur to offload them

That's so remarkably retarded I don't even know where to begin.

 

[Xarpho's Return]

All the industry served by my local railroad operates that way... as a truck-to-rail bridge in the system.

Plastic granules in by train car ---> Plastic bags out by truck
Tar oil in by tank car ---> Asphalt out by tri-axle
Sand in by hopper car ---> Glass products out by truck

"Train in, truck out" does seem to be the modus operandi for any spur-operated downstream business, even for food.

In Texas (Houston or within an hour of it), Anheuser-Busch brings in grain, Blue Bell Creameries brings in sugar, and Gulf Pacific brings in rice. It all goes out by truck. Finished products directly to consumers by rail almost never happens anymore. (I say "almost" because I think 84 Lumber has a few sites with spurs bringing in lumber, but even many of those are gone or disused).