GPUs & CPUs & Enthusiast hardware: Questions, Discussion and fanboy slap-fights - Nvidia & AMD & Intel - Separe but Equal. Intel rides in the back of the bus.

[Get the rope Macaulay!]

I don't understand why there's this persistent pool of people who seethe uncontrollably at every RTX demo.

probably because a big chunk of games are starting to exclusively have ray tracking like that indiana jones game. and demos like this have been saying it would be the "way of bthe future" since 2018

 

[Betonhaus]

I still have yet to find anyone that can justify why people should be this mad about raytracing.

"I don't like raytracing, the games don't look good and the performance sucks."
Then don't play raytraced games. There's an entire three decades of PC games at your fingertips that you can play right now that don't require this. Hell there are still new AAA games coming out that don't use raytracing. Why is this something to get upset about? Are you really particularly bothered that you're not able to play modern slop like Alan Woke at 100+ fps? By the time any of this matters enough to impact a game you'll want to play, 4090-level raytracing will be available on $200 cards.

I don't understand why there's this persistent pool of people who seethe uncontrollably at every RTX demo.

The problem is that all this money has been spent on horrible games that nobody wants to play when that money could've gone towards games people wanted to play; like if the original studio hadn't been bought out and gutted and instead were allowed to make a proper sequel or express their vision on a different tack.

 

[Slav Power]

*snip*

Okay nice, another lecture in a vacuum. Cool, I know why ray tracing is more computationally expensive. Now, let's focus on these core abstracts:

-what future does real time ray tracing have with the current physical limitations hardware is facing
-is it really the future of graphics or is it a dead end and the future will be going back to optimizing raster graphics

Because the way I see it, it is a dead end. No amount of optimization and hardware evolution will make ray tracing replace rasterization. The hardware demand for it is so exponentially higher and we're inching closer and closer to the upper physical limits of what we can pull out of semiconductors that I doubt we'll see affordable GPU's capable of perfect real time ray tracing that can match raster performance even within ten years.

Obviously ray tracing acceleration that Nvidia is doing will be immensely useful in workloads like Blender, but it will never be good enough to replace raster graphics in games. The reason I ranted about HL2 RTX? Nvidia keeps pushing those tech demos to prove that real time ray tracing is viable, and it's viable now. When it clearly isn't. When pushed to the max on a 5090 at 4K, it can't hold 30fps. It has to fill in the gaps with frame generation. Frame generation, which cannot overcome the input lag that's inherent to the raw frames.

The reason I'm outraged is that this is not an evolution, it's a massive regression. Nvidia is pushing something that'll never be viable, and with it they push technology that will lead to the demise of raster games as well, as developers will get lazier and lazier, where you will need to buy the newest Nvidia GPU to be able to have a playable experience, instead of something in the 3090/4070Ti/5070 ballpark which is already a very potent amount of power.

The only future where video games run and look good, is if everyone goes back to faking real visuals well. We already have a heapton of PBR implementations in raster, they look great and they perform great. Zero need to push ray tracing. But with Nvidia pushing ray tracing, as well as frame generation, and everyone defending it because it's the new thing, it makes bigger number better and you're poor if you can't experience it, then it's only going to wither and rot.

Now, I know that you're constantly obtuse about what it is that you want to convey and your constant dodging of the topic at hand. Whether it's on purpose or whether it's genuine autism, I don't know.

For example:

a 4090 is to raytracing what an N64 was to rasterization

N64 costed ~$400 adjusted for inflation, it was a fully fledged gaming system. A 4090 launched with the MSRP of $1600 and it's only a GPU. You've implied that the future of gaming will demand you buying systems for, what, $6000 to enjoy them in what can be considered acceptable? And you never address whether or not this makes sense, whether or not this will be viable. You just throw this example out there, without any context as if it's something normal, as if it's something acceptable. It's ridiculous. N64 was revolutionary because it brought real time raster graphics to the masses. The 4090 is a premium product, so if ray tracing is meant to replace rasterization, and this is what Nvidia is pushing for, that means it's turning what was for decades available to the masses into an expensive premium product.

That's essentially what you're telling me by throwing this statement without addressing it from your personal standpoint, and I have no other choice than to conclude that you are paid by Nvidia to defend them. If you think that's retarded, then please, learn how to actually speak your mind so that you won't confuse people about what it is that you want to convey. So far you're doing a great job of coming off as an Nvidia shill with the amount of raw theory in a vacuum that doesn't relate to the current discussion you keep throwing around.

So, if you can, tell me this: with everything that's going on with what Nvidia is pushing, the current state of the market, the pricing of Nvidia GPU's, the push for ray tracing, it's lackluster performance with the current hardware. Do you think this is good? Do you thing this will be viable in X years? Do you think that everything that Nvidia is doing in terms of video game graphics makes sense? That it should be defended? Do you think it has a future? Abstracts, if you are capable of addressing them without talking about something unrelated.

EDIT: To clarify what I mean by focusing on optimization in video games:
-Ditching ray tracing, it will never be viable and the focus needs to be fully on rasterization.
-Focusing on pushing rasterization further, more cheap tricks to get believable graphics. We already managed to go far with it, like with NFS 2015, so we can push it further.
-Ditching the idea of realism. Realism ages bad. Stylized graphics don't. Even semi-realistic styles like in GTA V will age better than full realism.
-Making sure that all those rasterization tricks will deliver the most believable result at the lowest performance cost. Not best, not most realistic, most believable. That's what I mean by optimization.
-Set the golden standard so that you can push as many frames as possible on every resolution as the default. Don't waste computing power on doing something you could do with a fraction of it for the same result on screen. That way, frame gen will only be there if you want to go for really high FPS, like 200+ on higher resolutions. Not as a band-aid for not being able to push 60fps at 1440p because the devs didn't care about optimization.

 

[#lurker]

How did we live with rasterization before this advanced lighting of NVIDIA© RTX© Raytracing came along?

That will be $3000 at 30fps. Remember to thank Jensen for this privilege.

 

[Raging Capybara]

First Mirror's Edge at 7fps, then HL2 at 13fps.

The RTX 60xx will run Quake Arena at 8fps. The future is now, boys. Of course, with a muzzle flash that takes 2 seconds to be properly rendered.

 

[Betonhaus]

I'm looking forward to handheld PCs being more common as they should set the benchmark that games need to be optimized for in order for most people to buy them. I think my next computer will be a handheld, providing it has a proper docking station I can connect two monitors and Ethernet to that has a connection more reliable then Type-C (I may be waiting a while and forced to compromise)

 

[Fcret]

probably because a big chunk of games are starting to exclusively have ray tracking like that indiana jones game. and demos like this have been saying it would be the "way of bthe future" since 2018

Right but are you seriously buying GPUs based on capabilities you're not interested in using? Indiana Jones looks like boring AAA Game Awards bait slop.

What RT games are people in this thread actually interested in playing that don't perform well on budget cards?

The problem is that all this money has been spent on horrible games that nobody wants to play when that money could've gone towards games people wanted to play; like if the original studio hadn't been bought out and gutted and instead were allowed to make a proper sequel or express their vision on a different tack.

Game studios routinely chase bad market trends that don't pan out. You point at them and laugh. Hell, we've seen that even when trends like live service die, the big studios are no more likely to suddenly have a change of heart and decide to make tight, well-designed single-player experiences. Often they just double down on DEI slop because the people making decisions at these studios aren't gamers and the only way to get rid of them is for the entire studio to go under.

The idea that "studios are wasting money on ray-tracing instead of making the games I personally want" is absurd. You make more money dealing in real estate than you do making games nowadays. The alternative isn't, "game I want." The alternative is, "no game at all because the specific thing I want isn't profitable and/or something devs actually want to make."

Software has always been take it or leave it. There's not really that many developers in the world and most of those devs aren't working in game dev because the industry pays like shit.

Anyone in this thread who's getting legitimately upset about market trends, I offer you this advice - get another hobby. Basing your happiness around the creative outputs of another human being is always going to be disappointing because other people are different from you and don't value the same things.

 

[Slav Power]

get another hobby

I will make sure to laugh in your face the moment your hobby faces the same fate, and with time it will, like everything else. Unless you don't have any which is why you're so confident in your spergery, in which case your very existence on this planet is a joke on it's own.

 

[The Mass Shooter Ron Soye]

How did we live with rasterization before this advanced lighting of NVIDIA© RTX© Raytracing came along?

Does this shit look like ass because Nvidia/raytracing is bad, or because this is an amateur hour production by non-Valve developers using RTX Remix?

https://www.ign.com/articles/half-l...s-that-it-ruins-the-original-games-atmosphere (archive)

Driver-Gomm then said that Orbifold Studios’ mod is its interpretation of Half-Life 2, and any mod team is free to have a go at making an alternative using the RTX Remix technology.

“It’s moddable,” Driver-Gomm began. “Remix is out there, Half-Life 2 works with it because we're doing it. There is always room for people to put in their own interpretations, and I feel like that is the healthiest way to approach it.

“Half-Life 2 RTX is an interpretation, right? We're pretty proud of it. We think we're doing a lot of research to get it pretty on point. If people disagree, which is entirely their right to do so, then they have the tools to go and make that alternative interpretation.”

https://www.hl2rtx.com/ (archive)

Orbifold Studios is a collective of developers who love Half-Life, formed by the teams behind Half-Life 2: VR, Half-Life 2: Remade Assets, Project 17, and Raising the Bar: Redux. We're led by our passion for creation and desire to always raise the bar of quality.

Our goal with Half-Life 2 RTX is to deliver a new way to experience Valve's classic, using cutting-edge rendering tech to bring the game to life in a way never before possible. At the same time, we'll be remastering all of the game's assets, to be made available to the community for free. With Half-Life 2 RTX and the release of its assets, we hope to ignite new passion within the community to explore the potential of RTX in remastering classic mods, or making new mods with RTX in mind!

Orbifold Studios are not affiliated with Valve and/or Valve Software® in any way, shape, or form. Steam, Half-Life, Half-Life Logo and the Steam logo are trademarks and/or registered trademarks of Valve Corporation © in the U.S. and/or other countries.

 

[Slav Power]

this is an amateur hour production by non-Valve developers using RTX Remix?

Nvidia continues to prop it up on it's social media and their branding is all over it so you can shove your "it's a fan-made mod" excuse up your ass. Nvidia is making it abundantly clear that HL2 RTX is in a direct relation to their brand, so it shall be judged like an Nvidia product.

 

[#lurker]

Does this shit look like ass because Nvidia/raytracing is bad, or because this is an amateur hour production by non-Valve developers using RTX Remix?

I don't think it really matters. When you fail to beat 20 year old rasterization techniques, it's failure all around.

 

[Fcret]

I will make sure to laugh in your face the moment your hobby faces the same fate, and with time it will, like everything else. Unless you don't have any which is why you're so confident in your spergery, in which case your very existence on this planet is a joke on it's own.

My main hobbies aren't based around consooming things other people make. I make my own shit for my own personal enjoyment.

Video games are a diversion.

 

[Slav Power]

My main hobbies aren't based around consooming things other people make. I make my own shit for my own personal enjoyment.

Video games are a diversion.

Okay so you're just here to bait, gotcha. Should've known better not to reply to an anime avatar.

 

[The Ugly One]

I still have yet to find anyone that can justify why people should be this mad about raytracing.

"I don't like raytracing, the games don't look good and the performance sucks."
Then don't play raytraced games. There's an entire three decades of PC games at your fingertips that you can play right now that don't require this. Hell there are still new AAA games coming out that don't use raytracing. Why is this something to get upset about? Are you really particularly bothered that you're not able to play modern slop like Alan Woke at 100+ fps? By the time any of this matters enough to impact a game you'll want to play, 4090-level raytracing will be available on $200 cards.

I don't understand why there's this persistent pool of people who seethe uncontrollably at every RTX demo.

There are no mainstream games at all right now that require RTX cards (EDIT: Okay, there's a tiny number of games) since any mainstream game that won't run on a 6000 or earlier series Radeon is DOA (plus not portable to the PS5). Thus, being mad about a game supporting raytracing in 2025 makes about as much sense as being mad that a game supports the Voodoo graphics accelerator in 1996, or a game having optional stencil shadows in 2002. Given that the newest AMD cards that have even the capability to do partial raytracing (i.e. just reflections & shadows) at playable frame rates are the 7000 series, which launched in 2023, and games tend to have 7 to 8-year-old cards as the min spec, it will be 2030 at the earliest before screen-space reflections are dead for real and you have to upgrade.

 

[#lurker]

There are no mainstream games at all right now that require RTX cards,

Again, RTX takes development resources and takes away from rasterization quality and optimization. "Requiring" is irreverent when it effects you regardless..

 

[Mister Fister]

Even the 9070xt is now about 10% slower than 5070 ti in RT.

 

[The Ugly One]

Now, I know that you're constantly obtuse about what it is that you want to convey and your constant dodging of the topic at hand.

I get really tired of you accusing me of bad faith when I write essays with sources to explain technical subjects to you that you don't understand.

I wrote up detailed answers to this:

-what future does real time ray tracing have with the current physical limitations hardware is facing

and this:

-is it really the future of graphics or is it a dead end and the future will be going back to optimizing raster graphics

that went into pretty extensive detail, but then I came across you accusing me of bad faith once again and decided, you know what? Go fuck yourself, buddy. You're not worth the effort. I'll respond to anyone who isn't going to be an absolute cunt in reply to the effort I make to explain things.

 

[Slav Power]

I wrote up detailed answers to this:

You didn't. You just explained how demanding ray tracing is and how everyone is using every trick in the book to make it somewhat good.

The questions that real time ray tracing face are:
1. will it be real time where it won't take a second to recast the lightning
2. will it be optimized enough and will the hardware be powerful enough to make 1. a reality
3. will the hardware be affordable enough to make 2. a reality outside of the 4090/5090 price ballpark
All three would need to be answered. You didn't answer any. Just went into the technicalities of ray tracing in a bubble without addressing the bigger picture.

and this:

Your entire rant was about ray tracing.

Let me be clear, I am assuming that what you're talking about is this post and I'm judging the post I'm currently replying to based on that. But it seems you're talking other posts. Which ones? Sorry, but this is not how online discussions works. If you've wrote such expansive arguments previously, bookmark them and refer to them whenever another discussion pops up if you believe they are relevant to the discussion and you don't feel like rewriting them again. No one is going to look through a thread to mark down each and every one of your opinions that you just assume everyone already knows by heart whenever you make another post and replies to it to make sure they know the full picture.

I get really tired of you accusing me of bad faith

I'm not accusing you of bad faith, I'm accusing you of being an autist that can't have a proper discussion, and whenever someone points that out to you, you get angered because no one but you sees the world the way you see, and you assume everyone already knows what is on your mind at any given moment.

Now that you've mentioned how you've wrote up detailed answers to those two points somewhere in this thread, but at no point did it cross your mind that I haven't read them, nor do I remember them, and that I discuss with you based on solely what you're posting at this exact moment and not based on days or months of your posts here over God knows how many pages of discussion, I understand it now.

You're not arguing in bad faith.
You're just autistic.

This is exactly the type of train of thought that autistic people have. They assume that everyone knows what's on their mind at any given moment, and when people get confused because of that they get angry that they're misunderstood.

Go fuck yourself, buddy

Likewise. I find it rather infuriating to try and have a discussion with someone that is permanently stuck in a parallel universe. Pretty counterproductive if you ask me.

Take up group therapy sessions, they've very helpful for people on the spectrum to learn social cues and how to interact with people. I'm being 100% serious on this.

 

[Premium Dog Food]

HL2 RTX is a tech demo, of course. It's not there to be playable, it's there to sell you "this will be the future of NVIDIA™ gaming".
The temporal artifacts are the results of optimization. Light bounces accumulate over frames instead of being computed all at once like real light would behave, hence the ghosting and slow time to update. This behavior already brings the 5090 to it's knees, proper real time path tracing with decent performance is still some time away.

 

[Betonhaus]

HL2 RTX is a tech demo, of course. It's not there to be playable, it's there to sell you "this will be the future of NVIDIA™ gaming".
The temporal artifacts are the results of optimization. Light bounces accumulate over frames instead of being computed all at once like real light would behave, hence the ghosting and slow time to update. This behavior already brings the 5090 to it's knees, proper real time path tracing with decent performance is still some time away.

Tech demos are supposed to be playable, if short and incomplete.

A good tech demo would be five to fifteen minutes of storyline that's completely playable, if sparse of side quests and flavor text. Such as the old GameCube Zelda tech demo that somehow turned into Wind Waker.

A bad tech demo is an entire game that crashes on launch even if you have the recommended hardware.