YABookgate

Echo makes a good point...

Midway through he points out that women's erotica used to be clearly marked. The "bodice ripper" cover, remember?

Nowadays, sure women can buy and read their smut with less embarrassment, but it is a little too close to YA designs. What keeps a kid from picking up one of these by accidents? (For a parallel, imagine playboys had a cover that looked like general comic books.)

And yeah, I'm not some prude, but I do believe in keeping some things walled from kids. You don't put the red light districts next door to the schools.
 
I think there's more to it than that. Western literature and especially modern editors and authors don't let you explore and in fact actively discourage it in favor of a pretty basic structure with different settings and characters. It feels like they decided every book has to be able to be converted into a Hollywood blockbuster.

Young boys gravitated to video games, anime, and manga because it lets you explore a story. Sometimes it's nice when nothing happens except some worldbuilding or character development, or the MC isn't strong enough to play an active role in the big battle. It feels like most books aim to rush through the story and railroad their characters without much subtlety or nuance.

Young boys like exploring stuff. I remember just enjoying reading DC comics in the 00s and reading the JSA stories where it was usually a buncha old dudes cracking jokes and trying to figure out their responsibilities as the "elders" of the hero community. Or the Titans and seeing the background. Or the JLI and etc. It was cool.

Or, hell, Doc Savage. The sidekicks had lives and were fun to read.

Echo makes a good point...

Midway through he points out that women's erotica used to be clearly marked. The "bodice ripper" cover, remember?

Nowadays, sure women can buy and read their smut with less embarrassment, but it is a little too close to YA designs. What keeps a kid from picking up one of these by accidents? (For a parallel, imagine playboys had a cover that looked like general comic books.)

And yeah, I'm not some prude, but I do believe in keeping some things walled from kids. You don't put the red light districts next door to the schools.
Yeah, this is kinda fucked up because it feels like this was done so women didn't have to feel embarrassed about reading this in public, but then I'll bet there's many instances of young girls picking these up. Of course, the usual suspects see nothing wrong with this.
 
Yeah, this is kinda fucked up because it feels like this was done so women didn't have to feel embarrassed about reading this in public, but then I'll bet there's many instances of young girls picking these up. Of course, the usual suspects see nothing wrong with this.
The fact young girls can just stumble onto this smut is gross. It's like leaving playboy mags in the kids section for boys to find. Is it THAT hard to clearly label your book? Shameless is what it is.
 
Nowadays, sure women can buy and read their smut with less embarrassment, but it is a little too close to YA designs. What keeps a kid from picking up one of these by accidents?
This is my issue that I have with B&N's manga section, they keep the smutty manga with the normie shounen and shoujos and not all of it is wrapped in cellophane.

This is probably why it is they were hankering for that "new adult" shit because college women/those with arrested development want to read smut really badly but YA publishers know it's a bad idea to start putting it in their books (though Lord knows they've definitely tried), and they don't want to go into the actual adult section because they might find books written by *gasp* white males or books that weren't approved by BookTok.
 
This is my issue that I have with B&N's manga section, they keep the smutty manga with the normie shounen and shoujos and not all of it is wrapped in cellophane.
You ain't wrong.

And comic books are hardly any better. You can sometimes find like lost girls next to issues of Superman.

Every b&n literally has a "baby" section in their store. Young adult stuff and youth friendly comics, manga etc should all be on the shelves leading up to that section with adult stuff further away at the least.
 
I actually posted both Larry and Jemisin's numbers somewhere on here.

Larry outsells her by an order of magnitude, and that's with an industry industrywide excommunication order on him.

He has between 2-3 million total sales over his career. The big surprise for me being his best work, the Forgotten Warrior Saga, is his worst performing series commercially. Maybe that changes now that it's complete.

Even with what is it now, five Hugo Awards? Jemisin has yet to break one million sales, and around 80 percent of her sales are her Broken Earth novels, which I wager depends on every library on Earth buying copies when it became the first ever three-time Hugo winner.

Her most recent series, the one where muktiracial queer personifications of the five boroughs of New York fight HP Lovecraft or some shit, underperformed to the point the publisher cut it from a trilogy to a duo duology. 60k sales book one, 20k sales book 2. You can't find them now without a markdown sticker on them.
That's not at all surprising.

Jemisin sucks. I remember reading some blog post of hers in which she said she wrote The Broken Earth trilogy (maybe another book/series) as a statement on rape culture. Meanwhile, what are Correia & Co. protesting with Sad Puppies? In their own words, "boring message fic."

Jemisin gets her awards for boring messsage fic, and Corriea is persona non grata. Way to prove his point, guys.
 
The fact young girls can just stumble onto this smut is gross. It's like leaving playboy mags in the kids section for boys to find. Is it THAT hard to clearly label your book? Shameless is what it is.

It's by design.

Yes, it's so the Twilight Moms who kept reading YA well into thier 30s can read thier fairy porn without shame - I think that's also a big reason fantasy publishers have ditched vivid covers, because that demo of women was embarrassed by them - but by sheer happy coincidence, it also lets them sell what are essentially Harlequin Romance novels to teenagers and kids.
 
I think that's also a big reason fantasy publishers have ditched vivid covers, because that demo of women was embarrassed by them - but by sheer happy coincidence, it also lets them sell what are essentially Harlequin Romance novels to teenagers and kids.
From "Instagrammable" to "Groomable". I hate what has happened to our society.
 
It's by design.

Yes, it's so the Twilight Moms who kept reading YA well into thier 30s can read thier fairy porn without shame - I think that's also a big reason fantasy publishers have ditched vivid covers, because that demo of women was embarrassed by them - but by sheer happy coincidence, it also lets them sell what are essentially Harlequin Romance novels to teenagers and kids.
Sorry for late reply. Yes it's intentional. Twilight poisoned a generation of women like crack did the black community in the 80s. Once it started, it was fucking over. Game over man.
 
Sorry for late reply. Yes it's intentional. Twilight poisoned a generation of women like crack did the black community in the 80s. Once it started, it was fucking over. Game over man.
I'd also attribute millennial/zoomer culture in tandem with the whole sexual liberation bullshit the boomers started. Probably could have kept it under control if shame was still preventing women from reading bean-flickers in public.
 
I and many people I know and have known—men and women—had no trouble finding smutty books, R-rated movies with tits, and even porn by the time we were old enough to be interested. Those who were interested sought it out; those who weren't did—I don't know, supervised after-school activities.

My point is that exposure to romance novels isn't going to redirect some kid's life trajectory toward porn and "gooning." Certain personalities are going to gravitate in that direction and some aren't. Personality is mostly genetic. As certain corners of the Internet used to say, "Sloots gonna sloot."
 
I peruse this thread but don't post often here, but I went to a few local bookstores recently and some of the fantasy, sci-fi and YA stuff was just unbelievably egregious. I couldn't believe what I was seeing, and honestly you don't believe it as bad as people say it is until you go and look at what is being piublished and pushed now. Just look at this shit, I pulled the covers from amazon as I didn't want to post pictures from the bookstore itself, and this wasn't even all of them, just some of the more egregious examples. There was another steampunk(?) interracial book with a brown girl and white guy that seemed at least partly serious and not full-blown romance. Note that these were the ones I noticed simply because they were turned so the cover faced out so I could easily see what it was, who knows how many others were like it next to them. A note, the "comedy" book about the drunk black girl falling in love with a werewolf or whatever was literally sitting next to Le Guinn's "Left Hand of Darkness" and I found that darkly amusing. Another "funny" element is how prominent the interracial romance part is, gay and straight. If I had to guess, it is brown women writing this as a self insert of some type where they get with a white guy (or they think MxM interracial romance is hot for whatever reason.)
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I think this really speaks to the crisis in our current culture and no wonder boys don't want to read Western "books" when this is the stuff that is on the shelves. Of course they turn to manga and youtube and video games when this is the quality they can expect to see. It wasn't this bad even 2 decades ago. I was thinking about how bad the situation was, had some thoughts about my own adolescence and the YA and fantasy I read growing up.
I read quite a bit growing up, including the classics and such, but the big stories I remember in my pre-teens were various Redwall books, many books by Lloyd Alexander (most prominently the Chronicles of Prydain) and the first series of books that Suzanne Collins published, The Underland Chronicles. The Underland Chronicles is significantly better than Hunger Games in my opinion, I have no clue why it is completely forgotten and people remember Hunger Games instead. Maybe because the central character is a girl in Hunger Games and a boy is the main character in Underland Chronicles.

Even though it has been near-decades since I have read some of the above stories, I still remember the central themes of Taran Wanderer, the 4th book in the 5-book series Chronicles of Prydain. The premise is Taran having a crisis where he no longer believes in himself and he thinks that he has to be born noble to become High King and marry Princess Eilonwy. The entire story revolves around him learning from various people over a long journey that what he does is what matters, not who his parents were. That journey eventually of course climaxes in the realization that he can seize control over his destiny and accept responsibility for what he can and wants to become, and it is not a birthright that can give him permission to become the man he wants to be. The other stories I listed above have similar themes and revelations, and those are the sorts of stories that can have lifetime impacts on children and adolescents.

Humans are fundamentally story-tellers. Stories, real or not, are very important to both the culture and morality of a people. We use stories to communicate fundamental ideas, especially to the younger generations. Often those stories are fictional/mythical to help separate comparisons to real life events, so we can focus more on the themes, ideas, and choices and consequences of a character. I am an analytical person so I enjoy reading philosophy and such, but often teaching important 'grounded' ideas in philosophy, like morality, being and the Self, are best taught not through direct instruction, but through stories that illustrate examples. Readers/listeners will absorb these stories and assimilate the concepts unconsciously.

Teaching the younger generation with direct examples (ie YOU personally should do this in your life) isn't always as effective as a story of a person going through events in life that can apply similar ideas and growth onto real life. This is why cultures all across the world at all times always had tales of growing up and 'the hero's journey' like stories. I know there is plenty to criticize with Joseph Campbell and the idea of the monomyth, but Joseph Campbell's absolutely got it right with in my opinion. Cultures across the globe have used stories to perpetuate not only their unique cultural ideas, but also to instill in successive generations values and beliefs that are too be valued. This was a tradition that existed for all of Mankind up until the past century, where it was completely destroyed by cultural vandals.

All of that to say that humans generally need, to borrow a phrase from LotR, 'Tales that really mattered'. Without those, you can miss important life lessons that can be illustrated through the use of those stories.

Due to a combination of malice, ignorance, and 'enlightened' new ideas of teaching, an entire generation of men (and women) in The West were completely without those 'tales that really mattered'. The entire storytelling history of The West was completely abandoned by the Elites, and this was one of the things that I believe led to such a total failure of culture during the latter half of the 20th century, along with a complete collapse of morals and ideas. This was somewhat stymied by a few specific cultural touchstones, namely media properties like Star Wars, the major comic book publishers, and the very rare book exceptions like LotR. I always wondered why boomers especially seemed to be so livid at the sequal trilogy for Star Wars and the subsequent destruction of the franchise, and were so enamored with comic books and the Marvel films. I realized the reason for this was for that generation, Star Wars and films like it WERE the 'tales that really mattered.' The millennials who were so enamored with comic book movies the past few decades were so enamored with effectively childhood entertainment, because when they were going through adolescense they didn't have those things in books or movies at the time, since Hollywood was largely focused on highschool sex comedies and such. Hardly stories about heroism and Maturing into adulthood. This is why they were/are so obsessed with Marvel films, because they are having a delayed appreciation for those adolescent stories.
This makes what is happening in current YA so disastrous, and why there might not be a comeback. Gen Alpha (and even younger) are watching youtube creators and that type of sloptent. They don't even have Marvel slop to appreciate, especially with how Disney and others have destroyed their most successful properties over the past decade, like Star Wars. You get a few rare moments for boys like Percy Jackson series, but for the most part there is nothing left on the shelves like that at all anymore. And with publishing still firmly under the control of the cultural vandals, there probably won't be.
 
Are any of you active on Threads? That's where most of the YA drama is going on nowadays. All the major players in the industry left X, so you'll only find echoes of what is happening (after it's already happened) there.

Just this past week, a self-published romance author was exposed for promoting pedophilia in her book. Other women authors bullied her off the internet and got her to unpublish her book. That story has a happy ending.
 
Are any of you active on Threads? That's where most of the YA drama is going on nowadays. All the major players in the industry left X, so you'll only find echoes of what is happening (after it's already happened) there.

Just this past week, a self-published romance author was exposed for promoting pedophilia in her book. Other women authors bullied her off the internet and got her to unpublish her book. That story has a happy ending.
I saw that. The excerpts people posted were pretty fucked up. IIRC, the pedo writer in question also got busted for having heavily plagiarized another romance writer under a previous pen name.
 
I read quite a bit growing up, including the classics and such, but the big stories I remember in my pre-teens were various Redwall books, many books by Lloyd Alexander (most prominently the Chronicles of Prydain) and the first series of books that Suzanne Collins published, The Underland Chronicles. The Underland Chronicles is significantly better than Hunger Games in my opinion, I have no clue why it is completely forgotten and people remember Hunger Games instead. Maybe because the central character is a girl in Hunger Games and a boy is the main character in Underland Chronicles.
I mean the Hunger Games was pretty popular, don't know if it's cultural touchstone level popular though.
Even though it has been near-decades since I have read some of the above stories, I still remember the central themes of Taran Wanderer, the 4th book in the 5-book series Chronicles of Prydain. The premise is Taran having a crisis where he no longer believes in himself and he thinks that he has to be born noble to become High King and marry Princess Eilonwy. The entire story revolves around him learning from various people over a long journey that what he does is what matters, not who his parents were. That journey eventually of course climaxes in the realization that he can seize control over his destiny and accept responsibility for what he can and wants to become, and it is not a birthright that can give him permission to become the man he wants to be. The other stories I listed above have similar themes and revelations, and those are the sorts of stories that can have lifetime impacts on children and adolescents.
The issue is that the postmodern era just endlessly deconstructs shit.

Humans are fundamentally story-tellers. Stories, real or not, are very important to both the culture and morality of a people. We use stories to communicate fundamental ideas, especially to the younger generations. Often those stories are fictional/mythical to help separate comparisons to real life events, so we can focus more on the themes, ideas, and choices and consequences of a character. I am an analytical person so I enjoy reading philosophy and such, but often teaching important 'grounded' ideas in philosophy, like morality, being and the Self, are best taught not through direct instruction, but through stories that illustrate examples. Readers/listeners will absorb these stories and assimilate the concepts unconsciously.
Speaking of which, I keep finding wokescolds trying to hijack European myths' potential gay stuff or feminist stuff while also trying to use a westernized edition of African mythos/etc. in YA fiction/fantasy fiction.
Teaching the younger generation with direct examples (ie YOU personally should do this in your life) isn't always as effective as a story of a person going through events in life that can apply similar ideas and growth onto real life. This is why cultures all across the world at all times always had tales of growing up and 'the hero's journey' like stories. I know there is plenty to criticize with Joseph Campbell and the idea of the monomyth, but Joseph Campbell's absolutely got it right with in my opinion. Cultures across the globe have used stories to perpetuate not only their unique cultural ideas, but also to instill in successive generations values and beliefs that are too be valued. This was a tradition that existed for all of Mankind up until the past century, where it was completely destroyed by cultural vandals.

All of that to say that humans generally need, to borrow a phrase from LotR, 'Tales that really mattered'. Without those, you can miss important life lessons that can be illustrated through the use of those stories.
The issue is that we're in a postmodernist era where "truth" is subjective and relative and anyone with a backbone is labeled a nazi.
Due to a combination of malice, ignorance, and 'enlightened' new ideas of teaching, an entire generation of men (and women) in The West were completely without those 'tales that really mattered'. The entire storytelling history of The West was completely abandoned by the Elites, and this was one of the things that I believe led to such a total failure of culture during the latter half of the 20th century, along with a complete collapse of morals and ideas. This was somewhat stymied by a few specific cultural touchstones, namely media properties like Star Wars, the major comic book publishers, and the very rare book exceptions like LotR. I always wondered why boomers especially seemed to be so livid at the sequal trilogy for Star Wars and the subsequent destruction of the franchise, and were so enamored with comic books and the Marvel films. I realized the reason for this was for that generation, Star Wars and films like it WERE the 'tales that really mattered.' The millennials who were so enamored with comic book movies the past few decades were so enamored with effectively childhood entertainment, because when they were going through adolescense they didn't have those things in books or movies at the time, since Hollywood was largely focused on highschool sex comedies and such. Hardly stories about heroism and Maturing into adulthood. This is why they were/are so obsessed with Marvel films, because they are having a delayed appreciation for those adolescent stories.
It's not just that, but also the destruction of the family unit.

This makes what is happening in current YA so disastrous, and why there might not be a comeback. Gen Alpha (and even younger) are watching youtube creators and that type of sloptent. They don't even have Marvel slop to appreciate, especially with how Disney and others have destroyed their most successful properties over the past decade, like Star Wars. You get a few rare moments for boys like Percy Jackson series, but for the most part there is nothing left on the shelves like that at all anymore. And with publishing still firmly under the control of the cultural vandals, there probably won't be.
They may be fucked if the pendulum doesn't fully get to swing.

The elites keep trying to put bandages on the impending economic collapse. There's plenty of young people turning to the right because they feel something's incoming and they saw the left not giving a fuck at all.
 
I'd also attribute millennial/zoomer culture in tandem with the whole sexual liberation bullshit the boomers started. Probably could have kept it under control if shame was still preventing women from reading bean-flickers in public.
Modern culture combined with social media accelerated the fuck out of it. Once people found others gooning to the same shit, shame was out the window. They felt they had a community or whatever
 
Modern culture combined with social media accelerated the fuck out of it. Once people found others gooning to the same shit, shame was out the window. They felt they had a community or whatever

This is the story of every depraved affectation that's gained even a little mainstream notoriety-to-acceptance for the last 25 years, from furries to troons to incest porn.
 
My point is that exposure to romance novels isn't going to redirect some kid's life trajectory toward porn and "gooning."
Reading my mom's romance novels one boring summer practically killed the genre for me until I found CLANNAD which cemented itself as the greatest romance in my eyes and nothing has topped it. It's actually amazing I've even gotten married to a Tall, Dark, and Handsome (imo), I'm so damn picky about how romance is supposed to be.

Now hilariously enough those books pretty much got me to become more critical about sex scenes to the point I literally roll my eyes at "milky-white breasts" and how "hungry" a man can be towards a woman. Granted back then, women writers kept their kinky shit to themselves, so it was just all pulling down the bodices and hiking up skirts in the missionary position (and not necessarily in bed), and yet the sex was still so laughably bad.
 
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