India-Pakistan Conflict - Land Of The Indus Versus Land Of The Pure

  • 🐕 I am attempting to get the site runnning as fast as possible. If you are experiencing slow page load times, please report it.
skeleton.webp
>mfw waiting for something to happen
all I ask is for something good to happen this year and I am repeatedly denied. I know nothing ever happens, but come the fuck on, someone send some spoofed paki taunting emails or something to the indian government to make them tard rage out and cleanse their entire subcontinent of subhumans with nuclear fire. I'm dying over here.
 
Anti-Indian sentiment could become mainstream if they are viewed as aggressors by the left which they almost 100% certainly would be. It would make all the upcoming changes to our Visa system go over very smoothly.
This is an aspect I hadn't considered, surprisingly. Especially since the left tends to ignore inciting incidents in favor of current feels, they'd gladly ignore the initial tourist shooting event in favor of "But the water flows they cut off", favoring their usual power and privilege way to assess good guys vs bad guys.

Once the walls have cracked on their position in the progressive stack, they're free game for further attacks on their legitimately horrifying treatment of women, their abysmal environmental activity, and the fact that they still struggle to escape an at-birth class based societies trappings with their caste system. India's a huge pile of all the shit they hate the most, and if it becomes a legitimate target due to that one failing, all of it is gonna become free game as the lefties move to one-up each other on suddenly dislikingthem.
 
Anti-Indian sentiment could become mainstream if they are viewed as aggressors by the left which they almost 100% certainly would be. It would make all the upcoming changes to our Visa system go over very smoothly.
Indians are the very embodiment of everything the left, TERfs and even actual right wingers hate in a person all rolled into one ethnic group.
 
Combat Aircraft (Number in service, all variants, not counting training aircraft)
Country:IndiaPakistan
GoodSU-30MK1 (259), Rafale (36), HAL Tejas (31) 326 total J-10 (20), JF-17 (156), 176 total
MediocreMiG-29 (59), Mirage 2000 (36) 95 totalF-16 (75)
BadSEPECAT Jaguar (113), MiG-21 (40) 153 totalMirage III (58), Mirage V (78), F-7 (53) 189 total

Swap the JF-17 amd Tejas to Mediocre and make the Mirage 2000 and any upgraded Mig-29s to good. Oh and any F-16 on the Block 50/52 family.

Tejas and JF-17 are Mig-21 class / F-15E class jets with better radars.

Also, the Jaguar is an attack jet and it drops bombs pretty well.
 
Last edited:
Swap the JF-17 amd Tejas to Mediocre and make the Mirage 2000 and any upgraded Mig-29s to good. Oh and any F-16 on the Block 50/52 family.

Tejas and JF-17 are Mig-21 class / F-15E class jets with better radars.

Also, the Jaguar is an attack jet and it drops bombs pretty well.
Pakistan's F-16s should be in the "Good" column, they are going to be on the upper end of the F-16 spectrum, but they would only be able to be used defensively or with US permission (which they won't get). So that's a pretty big asterisk.

The MiG-29s should definitely be moved to "Good" as they are MiG-29M/2nd gen equivalent upgrades. Mirages are probably fine where they are, they are upgraded but not to latest spec.

JF-17 needs to be in the Mediocre at best. Also the Su-30s are Mk1 and probably need to go in the Mediocre block. The Tejas are Rafales with worse engines and indian QC.
I'd say maybe the J-10 too, but there is no reliable data about performance.

Jaguars are good, reliable attack craft with AtA capabilities. They are going to be fucked if they're the ones getting hunted, but as deterrence and ground attack they're more than capable. I'd say they should be mediocre but ranking jets is almost pointless.

Given neither side has stealth craft, what's really going to matter is missile quality and quantity.
 
Pakistan's F-16s should be in the "Good" column, they are going to be on the upper end of the F-16 spectrum, but they would only be able to be used defensively or with US permission (which they won't get). So that's a pretty big asterisk.

The MiG-29s should definitely be moved to "Good" as they are MiG-29M/2nd gen equivalent upgrades. Mirages are probably fine where they are, they are upgraded but not to latest spec.

JF-17 needs to be in the Mediocre at best. Also the Su-30s are Mk1 and probably need to go in the Mediocre block. The Tejas are Rafales with worse engines and indian QC.
I'd say maybe the J-10 too, but there is no reliable data about performance.

Jaguars are good, reliable attack craft with AtA capabilities. They are going to be fucked if they're the ones getting hunted, but as deterrence and ground attack they're more than capable. I'd say they should be mediocre but ranking jets is almost pointless.

Given neither side has stealth craft, what's really going to matter is missile quality and quantity.

I rate CAS aircraft rather lowly after seeing the SU-25's mediocre performance from both sides in the Ukraine war, not that the planes failed to deliver ordinance on target, but in that CAS aircraft fare extremely poorly against modern air defense, and even worse in contested airspace. You can see the shift from CAS to multi-role aircraft with the Russians using the SU-34 with UMBKs to hit targets from beyond the range of Air Defense, the US made the same realization decades ago with the A-10 being mostly replaced with F-15 Strike Eagles using JDAMs. Aircraft that are both older and significantly less capable and durable than the SU-25 belong in the "bad" tier if ether side is using S-300 or IRIS equivalents for air defense.

I judged the rest of the aircraft mostly based on time of introduction. I'm well aware that a highly modernized F-16 is a capable combatant, but even it has shown age over Ukraine, albeit in very small numbers under adverse circumstances.

MiG-29Ms have fared poorly in Ukraine against SU-34/35s, It has been 3 years and I cannot recall a single time a MiG-29 (or any variant thereof) has shot down an SU-27, 30, 34, or 35. In general, it seems like the big fighters (SU-27, F-15) have aged much better than their small contemporaries (MiG-29, F-16). Of course, as you said, Pakistan isn't running around with upgraded SU-35s and the like, so this may be the MiG's first time to shine.

As for the Chinese aircraft, I simply assumed that being recent = decent electronic suite. There's no combat data on them at all, so this will be eye-opening to China.
 
I just want to state this before my milsperg:
There is about a 0% chance any of this shit will get tested. This is going to be a repeat of 2019. India will do some initial HVT strike with more-modern aircraft to make sure they get the important stuff deep over the LOC then will down grade to using their garbage teir planes for mass counter-retaliation strikes.
This is both a cost-savings measure and a deescalation; India's Rafales might be able to take a nuke to Islamabad and Pakistan has to respond accordingly. A MiG-21 ain't.

The plane Pakistan shot down back then was a Mig-21 for gods sakes, and for their part Pakistan flew no combat sorties, just had jets in the air to posture.

Also I mention elevation a bit later on, but when assessing the impacts of Drones on the fight, a fight in Kashmir would be taking place above the operating envelope of most of the cheaper drones.

I rate CAS aircraft rather lowly after seeing the SU-25's mediocre performance from both sides in the Ukraine war, not that the planes failed to deliver ordinance on target, but in that CAS aircraft fare extremely poorly against modern air defense, and even worse in contested airspace. You can see the shift from CAS to multi-role aircraft with the Russians using the SU-34 with UMBKs to hit targets from beyond the range of Air Defense, the US made the same realization decades ago with the A-10 being mostly replaced with F-15 Strike Eagles using JDAMs. Aircraft that are both older and significantly less capable and durable than the SU-25 belong in the "bad" tier if ether side is using S-300 or IRIS equivalents for air defense.
A lot of the Russian Su-25 losses after the early stage were due to airframe failure: Either near misses that later became fatal or just airframe stress. Nearly all Ukrainian Su-25 losses involved some sort of AtA action from Russian CAP - either direct shoot down with stand-off missiles or forcing an Su-25 to manuever where AAD could get a lock. It even then took multiple launches, usually a half-dozen or more, missile span Russia can pull of due to lack of threat to their jets.

This is unlikely to look like Ukraine (and that's if it pops, which I doubt it will. Its going to 2019 all over again). Ukraine and Russia both have obscene levels of AAD of at least "poses a threat that can't be ignored" level, and the size disparity of Ukraine's airforce has prevented Ukraine from launching effective CAP. In a Pakistan/India engagement environment AAD would be less of challenge and both sides would have sufficient combat aircraft to run interference for attack jets which makes them less vulnerable to AtA, which would allow them to operate under AAD envelope as intended, pilot skill and airframe maintenance providing.

The Jaguar itself has over-wing hardpoints for Sidewinders as well as it bomb load, so while it's not an air superiority fighter by any stretch, it would be a threat to any Pakistani cross-border strikes.

I guess what I'm saying is I'd put attack aircraft into their own categories.
For the Jaguar specifically, it'll come down to how well they are maintained. They got a very good rep in both British and French service for reliability, so the plane is solid if the ground crews are. And that's a pretty big IF.

I judged the rest of the aircraft mostly based on time of introduction. I'm well aware that a highly modernized F-16 is a capable combatant, but even it has shown age over Ukraine, albeit in very small numbers under adverse circumstances.

Ukraine's F-16 are hand-me-downs to (effectively) WARPACT pilots and the delta between NATO and Soviet-Pattern planes is vast. Ukraine has lost 2 F-16s. One was due to pilot error (NATO and Soviet horizon indicators are inverted, Pilot very likely got confused and should not have been allowed at the stick; he knew somoene and had minimal training) and one to enemy action from a S-400 ambush - an ambush that wouldn't be possible without (effectively) no opposing CAP allowing Russia to set it up.

Pakistan, on the other hand, got their F-16s in 1983 - they have had multiple generations of pilots who have flown nothing but F-16s and trained replacements to fly F-16s. They are also keeping them up-to-date. These the "oh shit" arm of Pakistan's airforce so there has been no fucking around or playing political favoritism with the pilots.

You'd be better off looking at the IDF over Syria for performance.

MiG-29Ms have fared poorly in Ukraine against SU-34/35s, It has been 3 years and I cannot recall a single time a MiG-29 (or any variant thereof) has shot down an SU-27, 30, 34, or 35. In general, it seems like the big fighters (SU-27, F-15) have aged much better than their small contemporaries (MiG-29, F-16). Of course, as you said, Pakistan isn't running around with upgraded SU-35s and the like, so this may be the MiG's first time to shine.
The MiG-29/31 is an airsuperiority fighter. Its designed to operate at high altitudes for AtA roles, something that just doesn't materialize in Ukraine. The AAD density keeps both sides launching at stand-off ranges. The issue with the MiG-29 (and 31 which is just an upgraded 29) is that its a bit of a hanger queen and IIRC nearly all of Russian losses after the first couple months have been due to pilot error or airframe failure.

edit: Oh there was one MiG-31 that got got by Ukaine doing a SAM-ambush. But not regular occurance; Russia doesn't use their MiG-29s much because they have Su-34 and Su-35 which are much more appropriate to the environment and, to try to keep the geopolitics brief, a high-flying long range Mig-29/31 air superiority fighter getting close to NATO borders is more likely to get knickers in twists than a Mult-role shorter range Su-34/35

Another thing to remember, as we talk about operating ceilings, is that any combat will take place at a much higher elevation than the current kurfluffle in Ukraine. Upper cap and engine performance numbers that don't matter when you're over flat land are likely to start mattering a whole lot when the ground is 5000ft up.

As for the Chinese aircraft, I simply assumed that being recent = decent electronic suite. There's no combat data on them at all, so this will be eye-opening to China.
What I've heard on war thunder forums, the #1 source of real world combat platform data from folks I trust to know about such things:

The JF-17 is absolute garbage. They were made to be SAM-soakers for Pakistan's F-16s. They are better than nothing, but their engines are garbage, the avionics are shit, and they mainly rely on the missiles to do the heavy lifting.
Basically as the F-16 was supposed to be a cheap fighter to protect other dedicated craft, the JF-17 is that but even cheaper to screen their F-16s. They are good for bombing the Taliban and making your opponent have to plan around something that launch sidewinders, but they operate on the premise "4 mediocre jets with heatseekers are more likely to get an enemy to turn around than 2 good jets"

The J-10 however has very limited data. And more importantly, instead of the JF-17 "multirole" the J-10 is primarily intended for air superiority missions (but lacks the performance to be classed as such). In that case the engines are garbage, but the avionics are improved and its possible, especially against India's older craft, it might prove itself.
 
Last edited:
I hope China will back Pakistan against India so it end up as a horrifying grinding war before taking themselves out each other, or at least make India collapse on itself.

Sadly it's a number war and there is 1 billions saars, unless they decide to upgrade the good old explosive belt with nuclears payloads and make it go boom in their cities.

Would be nice too if jobs and pay bounce back up since they can't pay Indians to work for a dime anymore.
 
The MiG-29/31 is an airsuperiority fighter. Its designed to operate at high altitudes for AtA roles, something that just doesn't materialize in Ukraine. The AAD density keeps both sides launching at stand-off ranges. The issue with the MiG-29 (and 31 which is just an upgraded 29) is that its a bit of a hanger queen and IIRC nearly all of Russian losses after the first couple months have been due to pilot error or airframe failure.

Another thing to remember, as we talk about operating ceilings, is that any combat will take place at a much higher elevation than the current kurfluffle in Ukraine. Upper cap and engine performance numbers that don't matter when you're over flat land are likely to start mattering a whole lot when the ground is 5000ft up.

The MiG-31 is an entirely different aircraft that predates the MiG-29 by a few years. The former was designed as a high-performance interceptor for the Soviet Air Defense forces, which dealt with strategic bombing and interception, and were based out of giant two-mile long runways deep in the interior. The MiG-29 is an Air Superiority fighter developed for the Soviet Air Force, which dealt with more frontline missions to support the army. The former was never exported out of the USSR/Russia and was designed for maximum performance above all, and the later was exported widely and meant to operate on improvised airfields. The MiG-31 is a hangar queen, the MiG-29 is not.
 
The MiG-31 is an entirely different aircraft that predates the MiG-29 by a few years. The former was designed as a high-performance interceptor for the Soviet Air Defense forces, which dealt with strategic bombing and interception, and were based out of giant two-mile long runways deep in the interior. The MiG-29 is an Air Superiority fighter developed for the Soviet Air Force, which dealt with more frontline missions to support the army. The former was never exported out of the USSR/Russia and was designed for maximum performance above all, and the later was exported widely and meant to operate on improvised airfields. The MiG-31 is a hangar queen, the MiG-29 is not.
You're right, I got my MiG that are in the 30s mixed up. I was thinking of the MiG-33. That's the jumped-up 29.
The 31 is the Foxbat but able to turn.
 
Last edited:
For the Jaguar specifically, it'll come down to how well they are maintained. They got a very good rep in both British and French service for reliability, so the plane is solid if the ground crews are. And that's a pretty big IF.
I'd say "jeet support & maintenance" is a massive debuff no matter the quality of the vehicle.

We could have given the jeets and pakjeets F35s and they'd find novel ways to break the planes through sheer incompetence.
 
At this point, both countries are scrambling to either get clearance for, or to avoid, a retaliation from India. India's usually retaliated via an airstrike, but the last time around one of their (albeit shitty) jets got shot down. India has to retaliate somehow, in order to not look like a bunch of punk bitches and invite more terrorism from across the border like Europe does. The real question is if Pakistan attempts to intercept the strike, and if they do, how successful the interception goes. Ambushing the entire flight and humiliating India is most likely to escalate the situation further.
 
  • Like
Reactions: IAmNotAlpharius
Back