Ukrainian Defensive War against the Russian Invasion - Mark IV: The Partitioning of Discussion

[otherdispair]

Because they had no claim on Finland, and the small parts they might be able to manufacture one over have limited economic value unlike Ukraine.

I didn't make the Finland comparison to get into gay claim rhetoric.
But to point out that if Europe isn't even worth consideration to russian planners unlike during the cold war, they could have just gone for it.
No NATO commitment for the US, so it's just the Europeans.
Since you skip that entire section I'll just state the obvious.
Yes, Europe is able to defend it's self from russia.

Why should a foreign power have to incentivize a nation to be able to defend itself?

But you agree that Europe can defend it's self.
What I'm talking about the incentives to building up beyond what they need purely to be able to defend themselves from the russians.
That's where the US could incentivize, but didn't want to so

German Elections were on 2/23. That's less than two weeks

So you admit that the time line doesn't add up. Great you've proven your own agument wrong. Thanks for doing my work for me.

But I'll be trachers pet and go a bit further, let's look at it trough Occam's razor.
a) they tried to influence domestic politics in Germany, it failed, they stopped doing it
b) you see the goal was never to influence German politics, that's why they where doing every thing they could to do so like going and meeting with the AfD, having a member of your administration live stream with them or making public statements in their support. It was all to push military build up. Never mind that the AfD isn't a bellicose party. Never mind the time lines not lining up. It must have been 5d backroom deal chess.
No you decide wath the more straight forward, simple explenation is.

that's fair but don't act like they aren't already getting into bed with China which again: goes against the interests of their primary protector and increases the costs of that protection.
Europe can't continue to have worthless militaries and try to buck the US. They need to pick a master. And it looks like they are going Option C: Putin. Fuck it. Anythign is better than having to defend our borders and not import violent muslims and africans.

Again they aren't doing anything more than the US was doing before Trump 2. If that goes against the US's interest they whould have stopped doing so them selves long ago.
As for it increasing the cost of the EU's protection, it can defend it's self. What it does is increase the cost of keeping China contained. Something that isn't an issue for the EU but non the less helps the US in doing by following it's lead in sanctions and export restrictions.

It is. The North sea is rotten with gas & oil, but it is Non-green and also racist and ablist to exploit it. "Being too retarded to not sell yourself to Russia because oil drilling is icky" is not a US problem except the Eurograsshoppers have turned it into one.

Also Germany dragged their feet on approval an opening of LNG port facilities to process LNG from the US until after invasion, plus a million other little EU slights to the US as they continued to funnel money to Russia which has now manifested as weapons on the battlefield. And one of the leaders who did said foot-dragging works for Gazprom now.

The North sea is already being exploited for all it's got.
Increasing exploitation takes a lot of time and planning since it's all off shore. As a bonus it's some of the more shit waters in the world.
Most of it is more expensive to extract than it would be worth under anything but peak oil prices.
It isn't a silver bullet to Europe's energy needs.
Yes, the Germans are very bureaucratic, this isn't anything new.
The Germans will tell you that the red in their flag is for blood spilled. But don't let them fool you it's for their red tape fetish. That they got those facilitates set up and running in less than a decade is a miracle and a half.
but again it just boils down to perceived slights to the US's ego. "Why won't the europoors but our LNG, so unfair" never mind that it's a lot more expensive, never mind that their is a limited shipping capacity for LNG, never mind that american LNG comes largely from frakking and frakking is expensive so when oil prices drop so would the supply of LNG the US can sell to Europe or that the dems want to reduce drilling in doing so also limiting the supply that Europe could buy.
Yes, there is a former German president that worked for Gasprom. He's been ostracized harder from German polite society and political circles than the AfD.

 

[Ghostse]

Yes, Europe is able to defend it's self from russia.

X to doubt. Unless we're calling Poland and Turkey "Europe".

He's been ostracized harder from German polite society and political circles than the AfD.

And yet his party remained in power power for over a decade on (and still is one half of the current governing collation), while they continued to shut down more native power generation, including their nuke plants, shutter coal, and further put themselves at the mercy of Russian gas shipments while also doing thier damnest to prevent US gas imports to Europe.
Really juices the old almonds, makes you contemplate it might not be just one bad apple and the political fallout not quite that bad.

But you agree that Europe can defend it's self.

No I don't. Not even close. They have the CAPABILITY to get to that point but that's been wasted on bread and circuses and importing niggers & muslims to keep the proles down. You can see from how things are unfolding if Russia decided "fuck it, Hungary and Romania are sacred Russian clay now." and the US decided "No, no we're sitting this European tard fight out. Doing it twice + 80 years of babysitting for ungrateful faggots is enough for us. Good luck, let us know what your healthcare system looks like under Russia." most of Europe would be able to put a fight for a few months before they would simply start running out of weapons - and that's provided their population even had a will to fight in the first place.

Basically it doesn't matter how many Russians you kill, or how much equipment you destroy, or how shitty that equipment is, if they can keep it up longer than Europe can.

Assuming some sort of Centralize European command materialized (lol. fucking lol.) they would have the planes to go up against the Russian airforce, but wouldn't be able to keep it up since even if Typhoon production was increased, the fact the production and assembly is spread all over the continent makes it very vulnerable to bombing or just good old fashioned sabotage.

Lets not get into the sorry states of English, French, and German steel industries, and the fact most of their ammo production would come from the nords.

As for it increasing the cost of the EU's protection, it can defend it's self.

No, it can't.
They can't even collaborate to build a jet.

So you admit that the time line doesn't add up. Great you've proven your own agument wrong. Thanks for doing my work for me.

"The fact things aren't immediately announced to the public is beyond my Eurocuck brain to comprehend"
got it.

You said "months" and it was less than two weeks. And Trump has continued badger the Eurocucks about their lack of spending, and they continue to screech about the indignity of having to defend themselves.

 

[Skylavijas]

I seriously doubt that USA wouldn't get involved in a potential NATO war with Russia, over one simple thing, one ace up Europe's sleeve... Greenland.

In the event Russia starts a war with a NATO country, all Europe would have to do is offer up Greenland in exchange for peace. No formal peace talks, just blurt it out as a common, radical peace proposition that could quickly end the war, drum up hype and excitement, enough that Russian news media and propagandists roll with it "ha ha, Europe is so weak, they're already offering us land. But we will take much more than Greenland". THAT will make the US government go "oh shit, what the fuck are they doing". If somebody like Charles de Gaulle were alive today, he would really squeeze Trump's balls with that.

And well... Russia does aspire to gain naval dominance over the arctic sea, it wouldn't be unlikely that it would demand something like Greenland in the peace talks as an alternative to carving out massive territory out of EU countries, or that Western European countries would be quick to suggest that, to quickly appease their populations, that would be reluctant to fight in a war and would want to explore every possible alternative.

Now it doesn't have to be so extreme, but you get the idea. Greenland is the most powerful diplomatic weapon within Europe's arsenal, that has the potential to single handedly prevent an entire war. It may ultimately seal it's fate with it becoming the 51st state in the long run, but that's peanuts to pay, compared to the alternatives.

 

[Agamemnon Busmalis]

I said it before, but it is ironic how both American boomers and Russian vatniks heavily glamorize the same mid 20th century post-war era.

A lot of younger Americans glamorize the same period without understanding its flaws and faults as well. WWII has a unique glamor to it in the US and Russia that it doesn't have elsewhere.

 

[SBG]

Russia backs away from idea of showing up at the Vatican. Kinda expected since it'd be difficult to decline a cease fire there without annoying a ton of Catholics.

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/moscow-wont-allow-russian-speakers-ukraine-remain-under-rule-zelenskiys-junta-2025-05-23/

https://archive.is/LGbd3

Russia casts doubt over Vatican as possible venue for its talks with Ukraine​

MOSCOW, May 23 (Reuters) - Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov cast doubt on Friday over the Vatican as a potential location for peace talks between Russia and Ukraine, saying that the Holy See itself would find it uncomfortable to host two mainly Orthodox Christian nations.

Italian Prime Minister Giorgia Meloni said on Tuesday that Pope Leo XIV had confirmed his willingness to host talks during a phone call with her. The Vatican press office declined to comment further.

Pope Leo, the first U.S.-born pontiff, said soon after his election this month that the Vatican could act as a mediator in global conflicts, without specifically mentioning Russia and Ukraine.

Lavrov, speaking at the Diplomatic Academy in Moscow, on Friday played down the idea of the Vatican as the next venue and the Kremlin said there was not yet any agreement on where a new round of talks would take place.

"Many people are fantasising about when and where it (the meeting) will take place. We don't have any ideas right now," said Lavrov.

"But imagine the Vatican as a venue for negotiations. It would be a bit inelegant for Orthodox countries to use a Catholic platform to discuss issues on how to remove the root causes (of the conflict).

"I think it would not be very comfortable for the Vatican itself to host delegations from two Orthodox countries in these circumstances," Lavrov added.

Ukrainian and Russian negotiators held their first direct talks in more than three years earlier this month in Istanbul.

DISCRIMINATION​

Lavrov also said that Moscow would not allow Russian-speakers in Ukraine to remain under the rule of what he called a "junta" led by Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskiy.

It would be a "crime" for Russia to allow this to happen, he said, adding that the simplest way to settle the conflict would be for the international community to demand that Ukraine cancel what he said were laws discriminating against Russian-speakers.

Kyiv denies any such discrimination.

Lavrov reiterated an earlier Russian idea that it would be good if presidential elections were held in Ukraine so that Moscow could sign an eventual peace deal with someone widely regarded as legitimate.

Zelenskiy has dismissed the Russian-backed idea that he is not legitimate as propaganda. Elections were not held when his five-year term in office technically expired in May 2024 because Ukraine remained - and remains - under martial law, which suspends the normal election cycle.

Zelenskiy and the West say it is necessary to suspend normal political rules at a time of war and that the Kremlin, given Russia's own tightly-controlled political system, is in no position to criticise.

 

[Fanatical Pragmatist]

It depends half the time neolibs will just call anyone who disagrees with them a Russian bot. However there are definitely real people who are bought and payed for.

TBH all the "How much did Putin pay you not to like the new Disney StarWars slop?!?!?!" baseless and retarded accusations makes actual legitimate suspicion and accusation of "bro let's just let Russia have Eastern Europe and scrap the F-35 program while we are at it!" types fall on deaf ears.

 

[SBG]

TBH all the "How much did Putin pay you not to like the new Disney StarWars slop?!?!?!" baseless and retarded accusations makes actual legitimate suspicion and accusation of "bro let's just let Russia have Eastern Europe and scrap the F-35 program while we are at it!" types fall on deaf ears.

Not sure how much of that genuinely happens.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/lifestyle/lifestyle-buzz/fact-check-no-russian-bots-didn-t-cause-snow-white-to-bomb-at-the-box-office/ar-AA1BI7is?ocid=hpfs24&apiversion=v2&noservercache=1&domshim=1&renderwebcomponents=1&wcseo=1&batchservertelemetry=1&noservertelemetry=1

There was some viral image that went around claiming to be of a news article claiming "Disney confirms Russian troll farms at heart of bad snow white opening weekend", but it wasn't real. So I think some people are interpreting jokes or memes as having been genuine instances of people believing everything is a Russian bot.

Makes me hate how addicted people are now to sharing screenshots of headlines and then imagining they're well informed. They don't even bother trying to link to an article for people to not read. So it's easier than ever to trick people to imagining journos are making whatever random claims they want. Like there was an article not long ago from the New York Times on how debanking is an issue that people are looking for solutions on and on social media you'd think the New York Times was defending debanking. Gets retarded.

 

[otherdispair]

You said "months" and it was less than two weeks. And Trump has continued badger the Eurocucks about their lack of spending, and they continue to screech about the indignity of having to defend themselves.

You have one small problem, the linear flow of time.
Trump and Vance stopped bitching about European domestic politics after the general ellections in Germany, well before the EU defence initiatives.
And again the stick wasn't to stop asking nicly but to make every US ally and partner around the world question it's relieability.

the funny thing is that I've never said that where "months". Franky I don't see the value in responding the rest of your post since you'll just make stuff up I supposedly said while anyone can just go back in the tread and see for themselves.
I'm sure you'll bitch about it being implied or some gay as shit or about how I'm to dumb to understand that back channels exist.
But I'm not the one coping so hard that I start making stuff up.

 

[Ghostse]

Russia backs away from idea of showing up at the Vatican. Kinda expected since it'd be difficult to decline a cease fire there without annoying a ton of Catholics.

Water wet, sky blue, etc.

I also enjoy Lavrov acting like Popes haven't tried broker peace with other Christian denominations, Jews, Muslims, and probably would have tried to add his weight to ending the Hindi/Muslim Pakindia flareup.

There was some viral image that went around claiming to be of a news article claiming "Disney confirms Russian troll farms at heart of bad snow white opening weekend", but it wasn't real. So I think some people are interpreting jokes or memes as having been genuine instances of people believing everything is a Russian bot.

TBCF If you go on social media/reddit (bad idea, do not recommend) people there legitimately believe anyone who doesn't like [Current Astroturfed Media With(or by) Tranny/Nigger/Women] only has that opinion because they are in sway to Russian controlled handlers.

 

[Pocket Dragoon]

I've already spent way too much time on this site. It's pretty fascinating.

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Brave1
Marketplace

 

[No. 7 cat]

Russians are funny calling the Vatican as a venue 'vulgar' given that post Soviet dictator chintz of the Kremlin and other palaces.

Spoiler: Russia rejects Vatican talks calling the venue 'vulgar'

Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov has stated that Moscow will not participate in negotiations with Ukraine at the Vatican.

Source: Lavrov in a comment at the conference Historical South Russian Lands. National Identity and Self-Determination of Peoples in Moscow on Friday 23 May, as reported by RBC

Details: Lavrov said Russia has "no plans" for when or where the next meeting between Ukrainian and Russian representatives will occur.

"Efforts should not be wasted on unrealistic options. Imagine the Vatican as a venue for negotiations – it’s a bit vulgar," he explained.

He further linked the issue to religion, noting that a meeting of representatives from "two Orthodox countries" on a "Catholic platform" would be "somewhat uncomfortable" for the Vatican itself.

Background:

• Pope Leo XIV proposed the Vatican as a venue for negotiations between Ukraine and Russia, an idea supported by Kyiv, European states and the United States.
• However, Bloomberg reports citing Russian sources, the Kremlin is not planning a trip by Vladimir Putin to the Vatican or elsewhere for talks.
• Instead, Moscow is focused on technical-level negotiations that began last week in Türkiye’s Istanbul, which, like the Vatican, is not an Orthodox-majority country.

source - Ukrainska Pravda

Pictures of released POWs today. These were prisoners taken in Mariupol. Some look very poorly, but their morale seems high. Source is somewhere on Telegram. I had a details post, but it wouldn't most and saving a post only preserves some of it. Zelensky says the third batch of the 1000 tomorrow.



Budanov was interviewed recently and noted there will be accountability for Kremlin shills, which he took as a threat. George Galloway, red windbag is frightened. There's nothing wrong with menacing red shills funded by the Kremlin. Accidents can happen. That Yanukovych advisor who lived in Spain, who is no longer with us, is the most recent.

Kremlin moves the goalposts again: now “peace” with Zelensky isn’t real peaceLavrov says Russia wants elections held in Ukraine before any peace deal is signed — calling Zelensky’s legitimacy a “decisive issue.”According to the Russian Foreign Minister, if the deal is signed by “the wrong person,” Moscow may refuse to recognize it. Another excuse to stall negotiations...

Nexta on Twitter

 

[Ego]

NOOOOOOOO I WANTED TO BE THE MOUTHPIECE OF A GENOCIDAL REGIME WITHOUT THE POSSIBILITY OF BEING ASSASSINATED! WHY CANT I JUST PUSH POLITICS IN A WAR AND NOT HAVE VIOLENCE PUT UPON ME!!!!
I hope Budanov records Galloway in 4k.

 

[NKVD qt]

Budanov was interviewed recently and noted there will be accountability for Kremlin shills, which he took as a threat. George Galloway, red windbag is frightened. There's nothing wrong with menacing red shills funded by the Kremlin. Accidents can happen. That Yanukovych advisor who lived in Spain, who is no longer with us, is the most recent.

My most unhinged opinion about this conflict is that budanoving people like Jackson Hinkle and Goerge Galloway would not only be funny but cosmic justice for them being very annoying on twitter.

 

[Rezza]

Yeah I can see them actually doing it now, probably only the most offending/directly connected to Kremlin ones. 1 or 2 should be enough to scare the rest of them. And I don't think Kremlin can retaliate in the same manner because I don't think Kyiv is employing shills in the same manner as them

 

[National Defense Advocate]

What are we thinkin, hoholbros?

Personally, I think he's right on the money.

 

[Type 10 MBT]

What are we thinkin, hoholbros?

Personally, I think he's right on the money.

Yeah pretty much. This all begs the question of what Putin's end goal is though. It's easy to say he wants influence or power over the rest of Europe etc. But what is really the point where he'll say "This is what I was trying to do"? I mean it's unlikely he'll ever be satisfied but will he consider Russia becoming a world power again the end goal? The translucent nature of Russian politics is as always a minefield.

 

[National Defense Advocate]

Yeah pretty much. This all begs the question of what Putin's end goal is though. It's easy to say he wants influence or power over the rest of Europe etc. But what is really the point where he'll say "This is what I was trying to do"? I mean it's unlikely he'll ever be satisfied but will he consider Russia becoming a world power again the end goal? The translucent nature of Russian politics is as always a minefield.

unironically, the reclamation of the lost Soviet states. Failing that, exerting total influence on the political landscape of said states.
Once achieved, they will use these resources to torment Europe for reasons I cannot fathom.

 

[-Jack-]

Didn't he write an essay in 2020 pretty much foaming at the mouth of how great Russia was and how it needs to be at the height of when Catherine/Peter the great ruled over Russia? If you read an overview of that essay you can pretty much see what he wants.

 

[Fuck It We'll Do It Live]

Ukrainian Defense Intelligence Warriors destroyed a Russian military train with fuel in the Russian-occupied area of Zaporizhzhia region!

On May 24, drone operators launched a strike on the train in movement!

At least three fuel tankers have been destroyed. The railway supply of Russian occupation forces in the temporarily occupied territories of Zaporizhzhia region and Crimea has been disrupted.

Glory!

Source.

 

[Skylavijas]

Didn't he write an essay in 2020 pretty much foaming at the mouth of how great Russia was and how it needs to be at the height of when Catherine/Peter the great ruled over Russia? If you read an overview of that essay you can pretty much see what he wants.

Clearly not, because Peter is known as a great ruler because he WESTERNIZED the country and invited WESTERN intellectuals, merchants and other tradesmen to help reform it. That's how he was able to establish the Russian navy and modernize the Russian army up to western standard of that time. Not only that, but his most crowning achievement wasn't conquering cities, that's almost a footnote compared to him founding St. Petersburg, a city that in modern day, even before mass emigration of Ukrainians, held double the population compared to Kyiv.

I don't even need to read the essay to know that Putin either learned all the wrong fucking lessons or is speaking out of his ass, because this is all elementary school level Russian history. The only thing Putin and Peter have in common is that they both wanted to secure coastal territory. Outside of that, the two couldn't be more different. Putin will absolutely never develop any Russian territory, he will continue seeping resources into the capital like a parasite. He will never advance or innovate Russian culture, military, arts and society, he will only continue smothering it, and atrophying it's creative and innovative spirit. I am flabbergasted how nearly every other western society looks down on members of trash culture like bogans, hood culture, gypsies or chavs, while in Russia - trash culture like gopniks are celebrated as the epitome of masculinity. It almost feels like desiring to read and write at a university level, dressing formally and drinking fancy drinks is synonymous with emasculation and androgenicity. It's cult of barbarism what it is.