Programming thread

[Polyarmory]

HTML is not only easier to code, shit like React is a solution to problems that don't exist. Its dogshit, I gave up on trying to get better at react because quite frankly, I dont want to code react even if somebody was paying me to do it. I'm gonna code vanilla html and I'm not installing any bullshit libraries unless I actually find them useful. Express and bootstrap for example, are pretty good.

im more so talking about the language used, ist very 2019 leftward shift redditesque.
what i will say is i thought react was just supposed to make websites look nicer? like i understand you can create a competent website using html but if you want the bells and whistles you use react no?

Why do you guys shit on React so much when you don't even know why it exists, and why it's bad?

React exists precisely because "just use HTML" falls apart beyond a certain scale ("scale" in the sense of quantity of pages/interactions) of UI where you need to update things (preferably without making the user sit through a reload.) This really goes back to AJAX, which enabled websites to be enormously more efficient. When you got your response from an AJAX call, you needed to update what the user was seeing to reflect the result of the request. When you just need to do that once or twice, it's no big deal, but if you have a website as big as Facebook, managing these updates gets really messy. This is where a framework comes in: A tree of DOM subtrees have their intended appearance declaratively specified such that the logic for updating them to reflect changes can be completely automated. That's enormously valuable for an organization like Facebook.

Now we get to the "why it's bad" part. React was created by "Functional Programming" jackoffs who tried to force a stateless paradigm onto an inherently stateful system, and React has become a convoluted nightmare over the years as the tensions between the stateful DOM and stateless React have required more and more convoluted workarounds. As for why it's so often React, it's basically just because it was first (Angular as initially released is basically dead; a lot of users left for other frameworks between major versions.)

Now, you might be saying "Wait a minute, AJAX is more efficient than loading the entire website any time the user does anything, but modern websites using frameworks are enormous, what gives?" And to that, I say: Jeets. Frameworks encapsulate components well enough that, for the most part, you really don't need to worry about how the sausage is made, and most of those sausage makers are just focused on making their particular component look right, and usually have a poor understanding of what's going on under the covers, so a lot of really clunky and bloated stuff makes it into the ecosystem.

Now, why is every retard using React, or some other framework, for websites that don't really need it? Consider:

• Businesses have a strong tendency to prematurely scale. (For example, businesses with 50 users using Kubernetes with dynamic scaling.)
• If you're a web developer, every website you make is resume fodder, and saying you "made a site in React" helps you get employed, "I made a small, clean HTML website" doesn't.
• Unfortunately, lots of "coding bootcamps" and the like teach React like it it's own programming language, and users don't even know how to write JS normally.

As for why I sperg out like this, I find it frustrating when you retards observe a huge, industry-wide trend, and just grouch about "kids these days" and give eachother high-fives for being so enlightened instead of even trying to understand the forces that could have caused so many people to converge on the same solution.


tl;dr use Svelte

ETA: Some of you guys do this with LISP too, but in the other direction. People seem to assume that the only reason we aren't all using LISP is because we're all just not enlightened enough, and the s-expression syntax normiefiltered the masses too hard. I don't know exactly why LISP failed, but it has real problems that can be considered instead of just "too much parens PPP"

 

[Private Tag Reporter]

learn 6502 assembly, it's the simplest one (and the most enjoyable)

RISC-V is similar and more modern, would also recommend.

 

[Marvin]

Now, why is every retard using React, or some other framework, for websites that don't really need it? Consider:

• Businesses have a strong tendency to prematurely scale. (For example, businesses with 50 users using Kubernetes with dynamic scaling.)
• If you're a web developer, every website you make is resume fodder, and saying you "made a site in React" helps you get employed, "I made a small, clean HTML website" doesn't.
• Unfortunately, lots of "coding bootcamps" and the like teach React like it it's own programming language, and users don't even know how to write JS normally.

As for why I sperg out like this, I find it frustrating when you retards observe a huge, industry-wide trend, and just grouch about "kids these days" and give eachother high-fives for being so enlightened instead of even trying to understand the forces that could have caused so many people to converge on the same solution.

There's legitimate market reasons why a lot of developers jump immediately into using an elaborate framework, that some might argue is somewhat premature. They have downsides and can be argued to overcomplicate the project, but that doesn't mean the initial motivations for choosing the framework to begin with don't exist or don't have their own separate merits. That's absolutely true.

ETA: Some of you guys do this with LISP too, but in the other direction. People seem to assume that the only reason we aren't all using LISP is because we're all just not enlightened enough, and the s-expression syntax normiefiltered the masses too hard. I don't know exactly why LISP failed, but it has real problems that can be considered instead of just "too much parens PPP"

I don't think everyone needs to use a Lisp for every project for it not to have generally been a successful family of languages.

I always like people giving a Lisp a try but even if it's not super wide spread, I still consider it successful.

Like commercial Lisp compilers exist out in the world.

 

[analrapist]

I always like people giving a Lisp a try but even if it's not super wide spread, I still consider it successful.

I understand Lisp people through Prolog. Prolog's Horn clause execution approach lets me frame things more consistently with my understanding of math. Prolog also has the kind of metaprogramming facility Lisp is known for. I just really like how I can express concepts in Prolog, frankly. It seems like Lisp guys and Haskell guys have similar vibes. If I'm hacking for productivity, I default to Ruby (and sometimes Bash), but these are more hacking languages to me. I was taught Scheme in uni, never really got into it, but I should give the can a kick some day.

 

[Croco]

I don't think everyone needs to use a Lisp for every project for it not to have generally been a successful family of languages.

Which (lowercase) lisp? Scheme lisp? CL? Racket? Chicken? I had this bright idea today for janitoring my OS using racket automation. But as a newb it's harder to get information on racket compared to say C. Right the racket documentation is supposedly wonderful, but there is a trap of spending all your time (((learning))) a language, instead of applying a language to solve your need.
But a language that grows with you '((lowercase (common (lisp))) '(racket chicken chez guile (scheme))) sounds really neat in theory.

 

[Marvin]

Which (lowercase) lisp? Scheme lisp? CL? Racket? Chicken? I had this bright idea today for janitoring my OS using racket automation. But as a newb it's harder to get information on racket compared to say C. Right the racket documentation is supposedly wonderful, but there is a trap of spending all your time (((learning))) a language, instead of applying a language to solve your need.
But a language that grows with you '((lowercase (common (lisp))) '(racket chicken chez guile (scheme))) sounds really neat in theory.

I have always used Scheme Lisps, specifically Chicken because it has a nice C interface. I've worked with Guile before and I liked it but it's very much tied to a Unix-like environment, which makes writing portable windows code difficult. I hear good things about Racket.

Edit: Get a repl working and start editing a file and loading it interactively. You'll get moving quickly.

 

[Croco]

Edit: Get a repl working and start editing a file and loading it interactively. You'll get moving quickly.

I read the Chez documentation about 10 years ago and had some really good memories playing with the exercises in either quack or geiser mode. After Chez was open sourced by creators Cisco, Racket adopted it. It's a pretty attractive PL for several reasons. My main issue now is something perl would have been used for 30 years ago: all my files are scattered. A simple exercise such as searching ~/* directories and organizing each pdf into a distinct folder. I suppose I'll download all the documentation and load it into NotebookLM and ask it questions perhaps if I get stuck.

 

[Jotch]

learn 6502 assembly, it's the simplest one (and the most enjoyable)

6502, and pretty much any assembly really, is the programmer's equilavent of going camping.

Almost no one has to professionally, you can do generally fine without knowing anything about it, but you learn a lot of skills in conjunction with it that you will likely find useful.
And, for some few, it's really cozy.

 

[WielkiWapiesz2137]

Guile is probably the least well made major scheme implementation. Last time i used it i found multiple errors in arithmetic, it seems to be the slowest and it's documentation is atrocious. Which is quite sad as GUIX is written in it + defmacro > define-syntax. The most well made is most probably chez.

 

[Creative Username]

ETA: Some of you guys do this with LISP too, but in the other direction. People seem to assume that the only reason we aren't all using LISP is because we're all just not enlightened enough, and the s-expression syntax normiefiltered the masses too hard. I don't know exactly why LISP failed, but it has real problems that can be considered instead of just "too much parens PPP"

lisp is cool if you have 190 iq and you really want to solve some extremely autistic problem nobody has ever thought of before
otherwise you should probably use <mainstream language> which has <library to do stuff you want to do>

there are still some scheme implementations you can use where people would typically use perl though, and you should definitely try lisp if you have 190 iq and think you can make something that blows everybody's well-established shit out of the water
you can also use lisp if you just want to do it for fun, which is the most valid reason to use a programming language there is

Guile is probably the least well made major scheme implementation. Last time i used it i found multiple errors in arithmetic, it seems to be the slowest and it's documentation is atrocious. Which is quite sad as GUIX is written in it + defmacro > define-syntax. The most well made is most probably chez.

i've heard it was really slow until 3.0 when it got a nice bump from the jit and it now has pretty average speed
also its compiler tower and proof-of-concept implementations of e.g. javascript are quite cool
also i've found its documentation to be about as good as any other scheme's documentation
chez doesn't really have as many libraries as guile does and lacks support for r7rs-small

i hope they both improve significantly one day

 

[Belisarius Cawl]

Which (lowercase) lisp? Scheme lisp? CL? Racket? Chicken? I had this bright idea today for janitoring my OS using racket automation. But as a newb it's harder to get information on racket compared to say C. Right the racket documentation is supposedly wonderful, but there is a trap of spending all your time (((learning))) a language, instead of applying a language to solve your need.
But a language that grows with you '((lowercase (common (lisp))) '(racket chicken chez guile (scheme))) sounds really neat in theory.

Whenever I learn something that was difficult I tend to document it immediately, assuming I can't easily find the Stack Overflow thread or similar where it can be expected to remain in perpetuity. My main choice is Markdown documents on my GitHub (which I will obviously not link here) and lately I've branched into Jupyter Notebooks. Racket has a Jupyter kernel (though I haven't used it myself):

https://docs.racket-lang.org/iracket/index.html

 

[${Sandy}]

When you just need to do that once or twice, it's no big deal, but if you have a website as big as Facebook

Have you ever noticed social media platforms are a fucking buggy mess that run like shit?

Maybe I don't want to make giant social media sites. Maybe I want to work for a business that sells fucking car parts or something and just needs a well optimized web page. You can achieve this with html, and javascript. Yeah you'll need to add libraries but React is a convoluted and bloated fucking mess that has more problems than it fucking solves.

Also, sneed chat doesnt use react afaik. 'nuff said. Sneed

 

[Polyarmory]

Have you ever noticed social media platforms are a fucking buggy mess that run like shit?

Maybe I don't want to make giant social media sites. Maybe I want to work for a business that sells fucking car parts or something and just needs a well optimized web page. You can achieve this with html, and javascript. Yeah you'll need to add libraries but React is a convoluted and bloated fucking mess that has more problems than it fucking solves.

Also, sneed chat doesnt use react afaik. 'nuff said. Sneed

It's not about you. Nobody is talking about you. It's about the industry as a whole, and the needs faced by the people who pay the money, and the incentives for developers who want to make a living doing this. You're free to make your Wordpress site or roll your own with jQuery or some hipster bullshit or whatever. Nobody will stop you. But there are reasons that other people don't do that other than everyone else being dumber than you. Frankly, it looks like you didn't even read the post you're responding to. Your willful ignorance disgusts me.

 

[Creative Username]

"Functional Programming" jackoffs

you have made about four thousand enemies in this thread by saying this, did you even read the sign on the way in?

It's not about you. Nobody is talking about you. It's about the industry as a whole, and the needs faced by the people who pay the money, and the incentives for developers who want to make a living doing this. You're free to make your Wordpress site or roll your own with jQuery or some hipster bullshit or whatever. Nobody will stop you. But there are reasons that other people don't do that other than everyone else being dumber than you. Frankly, it looks like you didn't even read the post you're responding to. Your willful ignorance disgusts me.

yes hes slightly retarded but he hates react because he hates the big industry niggers too

 

[Private Tag Reporter]

I want to get in on the functional/stateful slapfight as well as the web framework slapfight but I have nothing to really add other than my pet stack which is kind of autistic and probably an easy way to get picked out of a crowd

I just wish the web platform supported scripts other than Javascript.

 

[Creative Username]

I just wish the web platform supported scripts other than Javascript.

there are a few languages that can compile directly to javascript with no 145 mb wasm runtime needed
this includes typescript (lol) but there are also a couple source-to-source scheme transpilers

it isnt perfect but you have to do what you have to do

 

[${Sandy}]

I just wish the web platform supported scripts other than Javascript.

I havent looked much into it, but web assembly might interest you.

 

[Private Tag Reporter]

I havent looked much into it, but web assembly might interest you.

You have to write a Javascript wrapper around any web apis you want to call from FFI, which I think is honestly worse than just coding in Javascript to begin with.

 

[${Sandy}]

You have to write a Javascript wrapper around any web apis you want to call from FFI, which I think is honestly worse than just coding in Javascript to begin with.

Fair, Im sure there is some fucking alternative. Im gonna look.

 

[Creative Username]

did you even read the sign

heres a real picture of i&t with this thread in frame, including that sign i was talking about

Spoiler: r/LispCirclejerk