Christian theology thread for Christians - Deus homo factus est naturam erante, mundus renovatus est a Christo regnante

[Derrick]

I was looking for his video explaining how Napoleon never existed (as a joke), to show how people who claim Jesus never existed were wrong, but I couldn't find it... I found this instead.

If anybody ever tells you Jesus never existed you can be assured they know very little about the topic.

To quote the Atheist new Testament scholar Dr. Bart Ehrman:

"Jesus was a Jewish man, known to be a preacher and teacher, who was crucified (a Roman form of execution) in Jerusalem during the reign of the Roman emperor Tiberius, when Pontius Pilate was the governor of Judea. Even though this is the view of nearly every trained scholar on the planet, it is not the view of a group of writers who are usually labeled, and often label themselves, mythicists." (Ehrman, Bart D. Did Jesus Exist?: The Historical Argument for Jesus of Nazareth. HarperOne, an Imprint of HarperCollinsPublishers, 2013)

As far as I'm aware of the tens of thousands of people with relevant credentials (Phds in History/Philosophy/New Testament studies) only two don't believe Jesus existed.

Ehrman (again an Atheist) has stated that, despite knowing thousands of trained New Testament scholars he has never met a single professor at any university's theology or seminary department who believes Jesus didn't exist. He has compared a Jesus mythicist teaching in a New Testament studies department to a Young Earth Creationist teaching at a Universities Biology department (a dig at myself).




The reason why virtually everyone agrees Jesus existed and was crucified is because the evidence for this is overwhelming. Bart Ehrman has identified 15 independent sources from within the first 100 years of Jesus's life for Jesus's crucifixion. Gary Habermas has identified 45 contempoary (from within 150-170 years) sources for Jesus life, of which 28 sources attest to his crucifixion (12 of which are non-Christian sources) (Habermas, Gary R. Historical Jesus, 1996, page 252) As a matter of fact the death of Jesus is the most recorded event in ancient non-Christian history (Habermas, Gary R. Historical Jesus, 1996, page 281).




The four Gospels were written within 30-65 years of Jesus's life. For reference the oldest surviving biography of Alexander the Great (Diodorus) is from about 300 years after his life. Two of the three oldest biographies of Augustus, who was Emporer when Jesus died, are older than the entire New Testament. Remarkably all books of the New Testmanet survive in full. This is almost unheard of with ancient histories. Of the 142 books of Roman history by Livy 107 have been lost. Of the 30 books of Tacitus's history nearly half is lost.

 

[Señora Airi]

The ADF is suing Washington on behalf of the OCA and Orthodox Churches due to the confession law that was passed.

 

[Preacher ✝]

The ADF is suing Washington on behalf of the OCA and Orthodox Churches due to the confession law that was passed.

You might want to clarify that its the Alliance Defending Freedom, not the Anti-Defamation League...

EDIT: Nevermind idk why I conflated ADF and ADL.

 

[Spooky Space Kook]

Any one else fed up with mega churches. Was walking yesterday and there was a big billboard with a sign that said "Kenneth Copeland Bible Study" or something like that. Didn't know who it was so I looked him up and it turned out to be some greedy pastor from a mega church in the US. Mind you I am currently in Canada so a mega church from Texas advertising all the way up in my neck of the woods is insane. There are mega churchs in Canada but they usually aren't as blatantly in your face. I went to ones Christmas service once and it was less of a service and more of a production/musical. Had all the usual shit like it being over produced with people coming down on ropes doing acrobatics and crazy lights and shit. That really kinda turned me off from Church and religion for quite a while because I was looking for a new church because I separated from the Church I was with from childhood. Are there any Protestant churches left that aren't cults/MLMs or leftwing anymore? Any insight would be helpful kiwibros.

Spoiler: Powerlevel about my previous Church

I had left my current church do to disagreements with how they where operating, they where a Protestant church but they really getting in on the political side of shit and attached a bunch of activist shit to everything. I volunteered, played music for worship and Christmas concerts and occasionally did outreach stuff like going to feed the homeless and helping Christmas hampers and shit. Around 2015-16 ish the Church took a political leaning and was on the anti Trump train(even though we where a Canadian church) but I was able to look past it. We had 2 really good Minister's but both of them decided to move on for personal reasons. The new Minister's were not of the same quality of the last ones and the church suffered quite a bit. The youth program was cut back so less young people and their families came. The church board and the Minister's started really pushing LGBTQ propaganda, and was even trying to teach gender theory to kids which was super fucked up. They started implementing gender neutral bathrooms, which just meant putting signs on the urinals saying that the bathroom was now gender neutral and to use the stalls(pretty much every man I knew pissed on the signs including myself). All the catering to gays and trannys didn't really amount to a many new comers, it just drove away a good deal of people. Some LGBT came but they never consistently showed up to services, the only services that got them to come in numbers was LGBT pandering services which only the LGBT showed up to which kinda defeated the point of pandering to them. During COVID the church went to online services and it was like that for 2 years because they were on the corona bandwagon. The band and choir leaders left cuz they where fed up and I stopped participating or playing in the band entirely. The church is pretty much dead, it is now significantly smaller. The old people stuck around but they have been dying off at an ever increasing rate and not enough new people show up to replace those numbers. The only time the church is close to capacity is Christmas or Easter. My friend went to another of the Churchs location until they stopped compensating a family member who played organ for 30 years. Another location does a drag queen service which is horrifying and the whole organization is infested with progressive politics.

TLDR: My church went gay and now I looking for a new Church that doesn't cater to faggots

 

[Preacher ✝]

Any one else fed up with mega churches.

I am fed up with all of the false Churches, but those evangelical mega churches are among the more egregious examples of shameless heresy.

 

[Señora Airi]

You might want to clarify that its the Alliance Defending Freedom, not the Anti-Defamation League...

EDIT: Nevermind idk why I conflated ADF and ADL.

It's OK; I had to read it several times before posting. Appreciate the lookout though

 

[Preacher ✝]

The Wisdom of Bl. Fulton Sheen

Day 168 - To demand love is to lose love. A selfish heart creates its own vacuum.

 

[Spooky Space Kook]

An

I am fed up with all of the false Churches, but those evangelical mega churches are among the more egregious examples of shameless heresy.

Another thing I have noticed is that Asian churches alot of time end up being cults for some reason. Like those Koreans in the US who were tied to a church I forgot the name of that they found bodies in the trunk of their car and were part of a human trafficking ring. Although the worst "churches" always seem to be in Africa. I think was in Kenya that like almost 500 people were found dead on the church's property a few years ago. It was called the "Good News" church if I remember correctly and their kill count would put a smile on Jim Jones face if that bastard was still around.

 

[Preacher ✝]

Another thing I have noticed is that Asian churches alot of time end up being cults for some reason. Like those Koreans in the US who were tied to a church I forgot the name of that they found bodies in the trunk of their car and were part of a human trafficking ring. Although the worst "churches" always seem to be in Africa. I think was in Kenya that like almost 500 people were found dead on the church's property a few years ago. It was called the "Good News" church if I remember correctly and their kill count would put a smile on Jim Jones face if that bastard was still around.

To a degree that is the respective reality of those parts of the world.

Africa has a historically established tendency to be a brutal and violent place. Asia has a historically established tendency towards superstition, mysticism, and alike.

Weak faiths like evangelicalism have a tendency to adapt to their environment rather than command their environment to adapt to them. Applying this logic to the mega churches reveals America's tendency towards wanton capitalism, for what is a mega church if not the religious equivalent of a Walmart.

 

[Spooky Space Kook]

Applying this logic to the mega churches reveals America's tendency towards wanton capitalism, for what is a mega church if not the religious equivalent of a Walmart.

The biggest problem is that in the West we view faith, religion and worship as transactional relationship with God and the church. Everything has been perceived through the "give and take" lense for so long now. It has been fed to us as "if you go to church and say your prayers good things will happen to you" and some places switched a few things around so that monetary donations to the church will benefit you through "miracles" instead of benefiting you by keeping the place of worship open. Mega church's have ramped up the rhetoric to 11 and to keep the masses from wondering were all the money went the spend some of it building massive gaudy production warehouses that they call a church and pocketing the rest. People seem to think that massive production budgets will somehow equal the best quality church service, kinda like how movies are today. Not to mention the "pastors" and their "miracles" that usually involve people forking over money to recieve some sort of temporary placebo effect.

 

[Mad_Dog]

The biggest problem is that in the West we view faith, religion and worship as transactional relationship with God and the church. Everything has been perceived through the "give and take" lense for so long now. It has been fed to us as "if you go to church and say your prayers good things will happen to you" and some places switched a few things around so that monetary donations to the church will benefit you through "miracles" instead of benefiting you by keeping the place of worship open. Mega church's have ramped up the rhetoric to 11 and to keep the masses from wondering were all the money went the spend some of it building massive gaudy production warehouses that they call a church and pocketing the rest. People seem to think that massive production budgets will somehow equal the best quality church service, kinda like how movies are today. Not to mention the "pastors" and their "miracles" that usually involve people forking over money to recieve some sort of temporary placebo effect.

Anything more high-tech than this hurts my soul

 

[Spooky Space Kook]

Anything more high-tech than this hurts my soul
View attachment 7518405

The reason modern churches need all the sound equipment today is that their acoustics suck. Old churchs have proper acoustics so you here everything from pretty much every seat. Also why choirs singing in churchs and cathedrals sound so good.

 

[Cassius Crayfish]

Kenneth Copeland may be possessed by some kind of evil spirit. He makes weird noises all the time, his eyes are discomforting - and he preaches a false gospel.

Are there any Protestant churches left that aren't cults/MLMs or leftwing anymore? Any insight would be helpful kiwibros.

Plenty. You'd probably be on fairly safe ground with churches that are part of the North American Presbyterian and Reformed Council. Unfortunately the two biggest Reformed/Presbyterian denominations - PC (USA) and CRCNA - are mixed bags these days, which is why they are not part of the Council. PCUSA is the worse of the two as its leadership has embraced woke. CRCNA is moving in the same direction without realising it.

 

[Frick Marisa]

(I don't know the channel at the end, I just liked the video...)

 

[Mad_Dog]

View attachment 7521435
(I don't know the channel at the end, I just liked the video...)

Minus the hoax part, average Catholic Saint reaction to persecution be like:

 

[Preacher ✝]

The Wisdom of Bl. Fulton Sheen

Day 169 - Truth is not something we invent; if we do, it is a lie; rather, truth is something we discover, like love.

 

[Derrick]

View attachment 7521435
(I don't know the channel at the end, I just liked the video...)

No serious scholar has suggested the Disciples stole Jesus's body since Hermann Samuel Reimarus in the 1760s. As you pointed out the disciples willingness to die for their faith indicates a genuine belief. We have first century sources for three of their deaths (four if you count Paul): Peter (1st Clement), Paul (1st Clement), James the Brother of Jesus (Josephus) and James the son of Zebedee (Acts of the Apostles). And we know from early Roman sources like the Pliny-Trajan correspondence all Christians had to do to not be murdered was recant, they weren't being murdered for having previously been a Christian, despite this these four (and many more if you let me have second century sources) were willing to go to their graves promoting the idea Jesus rose from the grave.

The truth is, once you get Jesus in the tomb, its very hard to come up with a naturalistic way to get him out, that's why, although a majority of New Testament scholars agree Jesus was buried in a tomb, a minority of Atheists continue to cling to the idea he was thrown into a paupers pit for Criminals. This is of course nonsense, we have 5 sources from the first two centuries (at least that I can think of) indicating Jesus was buried in a tomb: 1st Corinthians, the Synoptic Gospels, Gospel of John, Justin Martyr's dialogue with Trypho, Gospel of Peter (a gnostic text). We have zero sources indicating Jesus was buried in anything different than a tomb. As Dale Allison, who is no friend to evangelicals, pointed out: Christians believe Isaiah 53 is a messianic prophecy and LOVE using it to prove Jesus was the messiah, it is almost unthinkable that early Christians wouldn't mention Jesus being buried in a pit of criminals in an attempt to connect it with Isaiah 53:9: "He was assigned a grave with the wicked".

The inability to account for Jesus's body is a real problem. We have three first/second century sources indicating the Pharisee's accused the disciples of stealing his body: Gospel of Matthew (~80 AD), Justin Martyr: dialogue with Trypho (~140 AD), Tertullian: De Spectaculis (~197 AD), a tacit admission on their part that they failed to relocate his body. But as you yourself have noted, one might have been willing to be murdered for the life, two? Unthinkable, four? Downright impossible.

 

[GenderCop]

Any one else fed up with mega churches.

they are becoming like McDonalds, seriously.
They now start "branches" or "satellites"--that is prob why you see Copeland all the way up in Canada.

Newest trend is to call them one catchy word or term: the Rock Church, Redemption, Gateway, Elevation, Victory, New Life, Relentless, Quest, New Direction, New Hope, New Spring, Harvest Fellowship, Love unlimited, Church of the Highlands, blahblahblah.

These churches all claim they do not subscribe to concept of denominations and then they start "branches"--exactly like denominations.

I think its the size & flashy elements... a megachurch makes ppl feel like they did something important.

 

[Starscream's Loyalty]

I've been struggling with balancing self-interest/my own priorities with giving/charity. No, i dont give money, as its too fungible, but i give goodie bags to local schools amongst other things of that nature. Should I feel bad for not wanting to give away most of my possessions? Not all, obviously. But I know the world will just demand more from you. Basically, how do I differentiate self-interest from being just selfish? The secular world likes to throw around that word on anybody who simply says 'I don't want to pay for others' expenses'.

Sorry if this is just me rambling and its just one big word salad. I don't want to sacrifice my own blessings in life and just give then away to some dumbass who wouldn't piss on me if I was on fire. I struggle with seeing the difference in protecting my property vs being selfish.

 

[rapecel]

Gospel of Matthew (~80 AD)

Before that, actually. The reason people say it was written after 70 AD is because Jesus prophesied the destruction of the second temple, which happened in 70 AD. It's written like it was written before 70 AD, and the only way you "reasonably" get to a later dating is if you deny the possibility of legitimate prophecy.