Community Debate Ethics in VTubing, Model Design and Voice Acting, Loli and Loli-adjacency - Containment zone for third rail enjoyers

[Burnt Fish]

because I do not see a stomach on what appears to be a kinda beach/summer style outfit and immediately think all the fucked up shit these people are clearly thinking.

Maybe it's due to me frequently going to the beach throughout my life since I was a kid and seeing people with that kinda outfit

I think it gets drown out in some obvious and unsurprising hyperbole. But the general issue I would point out is that it's one thing to go to a beach and like duh obviously kids are there and dressed for the beach.

But that's not the same thing as purposefully designing a model to make you look like a child, and then put it in that sort of revealing outfit, while preening for your viewers "ooooh tummy and toes for free on day one" There's an intent in that choice which is to tantalize, where your story of just seeing kids at the beach they're just kids there doing beach things, not dressing up for you as a viewer.

It's the same way that you can recognize there's a difference again in seeing an adult woman out and about on the beach in a bikini, it's different in intent than if you go log onto twitch and see local ethot #7658 doing her booby stream in a bikini. The woman you saw on the beach is just spending time at the beach, the woman on twitch is dressed specifically for an audience with the intent to tantalize them.

That's why I'll always criticize it with vtubing, model designs are an intentional choice, you don't have to choose to present and market yourself as a child, but people choose to do it, and then choose to do things that sexualize themselves for a reason, for a specific audience. when Saba was Gura it could possibly be hand waived away saying she had no say in her model (though still questionable), but especially now as an indie she's in full control of how she's presenting and what she's presenting with it.

You're acting like these are 2 separate things when the behavior is the fucking same and they post the same shit everywhere.

I'd thought my use of coinkydink would make my post being tongue in cheek obvious. I know they're the same thing, it was a sarcastic "oh wow how did this happen" sort of statement.

 

[The Lawgiver]

I sorta liken it to the difference between a child wearing a swimsuit at the beach and photos of a child wearing a swimsuit being posted online. Obviously there is nothing sexual about a child in a swimsuit but because pedophiles exist its best not to post pictures of your child on the internet in swimwear where they can easily end up in the wrong hands. In an ideal world Saba would be able to have that model and everything would be fine but because weirdo lolicons and pedophiles exist she will be sexualized. Its the fact that she chose that model knowing that is the case and actively panders to them that makes it worse. Its intentional. She didn't choose that model just because its cute she chose it knowing her audience is full of cunny loving weirdos.

I already said I do not give a shit about the semantics around a beach outfit existing, or even the character's stylization being percieved as a "child". That doesn't even factor for me, shit's gay to give importance over the fucking fact that KANI CREW was a listed potential fan name. They had a cut and dry blatant pedo tell and ignored it, focusing on the gay slapfight faux outrage shit.

But that's not the same thing as purposefully designing a model to make you look like a child, and then put it in that sort of revealing outfit, while preening for your viewers "ooooh tummy and toes for free on day one" There's an intent in that choice which is to tantalize, where your story of just seeing kids at the beach they're just kids there doing beach things, not dressing up for you as a viewer.

It's the same way that you can recognize there's a difference again in seeing an adult woman out and about on the beach in a bikini, it's different in intent than if you go log onto twitch and see local ethot #7658 doing her booby stream in a bikini. The woman you saw on the beach is just spending time at the beach, the woman on twitch is dressed specifically for an audience with the intent to tantalize them.

I wish you'd actually understand what my post was trying to say instead of perpetuating the machine.

 

[Burnt Fish]

I wish you'd actually understand what my post was trying to say instead of perpetuating the machine.

I perfectly understand what your post is saying but you still spent over half the post talking "beach model no matter, I went to the beach growing up" and I can still offer a counterpoint to that.

If you wanted to solely focus on the Kani crew stuff then keep your posts to that, if you write more people will reply to that too. want a narrower scope of replies, narrow the scope of your post, simple as.

 

[The Lawgiver]

I perfectly understand what your post is saying but you still spent over half the post talking "beach model no matter, I went to the beach growing up" and I can still offer a counterpoint to that.

If you wanted to solely focus on the Kani crew stuff then keep your posts to that, if you write more people will reply to that too. want a narrower scope of replies, narrow the scope of your post, simple as.

I'm not going to allow you to pull me into this gay slapfight eternal shit. You're deliberately misinterpreting my message to keep going on and on about how shit's supposed to be "tantalizing" or whatever when I blatantly was talking about how the constant refocusing to outfit talk instead of the actual genuine pedo terminologies felt like controlled opposition smokescreen bullshit for cloutfarming which fucking disgusts me.

 

[Burnt Fish]

I'm not going to allow you to pull me into this gay slapfight eternal shit. You're deliberately misinterpreting my message to keep going on and on about how shit's supposed to be "tantalizing" or whatever when I blatantly was talking about how the constant refocusing to outfit talk instead of the actual genuine pedo terminologies felt like controlled opposition smokescreen bullshit for cloutfarming which fucking disgusts me.

My brother in christ you are acting like a sperg I wasn't saying anything to the tune of twisting your message into being about tantalization. I was just giving a counterpoint to why it's not something I'd dismiss and I don't disagree whatsoever about the Kani stuff. it's not a one or the other thing. They're both a problem.

This isn't an eternal slapfight you're swinging at ghosts like a schizo.

 

[WelperHelper99]

I'm not going to allow you to pull me into this gay slapfight eternal shit. You're deliberately misinterpreting my message to keep going on and on about how shit's supposed to be "tantalizing" or whatever when I blatantly was talking about how the constant refocusing to outfit talk instead of the actual genuine pedo terminologies felt like controlled opposition smokescreen bullshit for cloutfarming which fucking disgusts me.

Enough. You are making this about you and not about the topic. Take your meds brother.

 

[Cheetahman]

The problem with rap music stereotypes wasn't that every kid in school who listened to rap music was destined to become a crack-slinging gangster, it was that so many people were okay with abhorrent media. The same thing seems to have happened to vtuber/anime/gacha, where even though not every person who keeps using the lingo is a full-blown child-fucking pedophile (like that artist who just got shitcanned), 100% of them are perfectly okay with disseminating it.
I think @cheesed to meet you has a pretty good analogy, seeing somebody else's child on the beach is normal, having photos of somebody else's child on the beach is highly suspicious. The "filtered tourist/cunny uoh" stuff has become like Rick and Morty roleplay for an even more reprehensible fandom.
You really have to wonder what happened, because the first dozen or so vtubers were basically all adult women who sang or did comedy sketches.

As for the SEA question, Southeast Asia is largely an amoral shithole where they will sell films of monkey torture and host number stations for CSAM distribution, so there's only so much benefit of the doubt to give them.

 

[WelperHelper99]

You really have to wonder what happened, because the first dozen or so vtubers were basically all adult women who sang or did comedy sketches.

Lack of gatekeeping. There was zero policing of the VTuber shit, partially due to how rapid it sprang up, and partially because the Lolicons astroturfed themselves hard going in. They got in on the ground floor.

 

[Wilson The Ball]

Lack of gatekeeping. There was zero policing of the VTuber shit, partially due to how rapid it sprang up, and partially because the Lolicons astroturfed themselves hard going in. They got in on the ground floor.

It was, above all else an investment. Reward these women with money for engaging in a depraved fetish until it is normalized

 

[Burnt Fish]

Lack of gatekeeping. There was zero policing of the VTuber shit, partially due to how rapid it sprang up, and partially because the Lolicons astroturfed themselves hard going in. They got in on the ground floor.

Honestly, and it's a point I've brought up here in the vtuber general thread before.

"Gatekeeping" to a large extent just doesn't work in general for things like this. You can gatekeep a place like kiwifarms because there are enforcement mechanisms. But something like vtubing is just like "youtuber" or "Streamer" and you can't functionally keep people out of that space, there are no mechanisms by which to do so outside of the platforms which host them, those platforms could "gatekeep" their platforms from these types of creators, but the community is largely powerless to stop them from existing.

The eroding normalization of some of the shit behavior going on in the space are a product of wider cultural issues beyond just vtubing or even anime. the normalization of sexual content in general, permissive mindsets around "no kink shaming" etc all give rise to the types of responses you'll see from lolicons. "If you don't like it just don't watch it" etc.

 

[WelperHelper99]

Honestly, and it's a point I've brought up here in the vtuber general thread before.

"Gatekeeping" to a large extent just doesn't work in general for things like this. You can gatekeep a place like kiwifarms because there are enforcement mechanisms. But something like vtubing is just like "youtuber" or "Streamer" and you can't functionally keep people out of that space, there are no mechanisms by which to do so outside of the platforms which host them, those platforms could "gatekeep" their platforms from these types of creators, but the community is largely powerless to stop them from existing.

The eroding normalization of some of the shit behavior going on in the space are a product of wider cultural issues beyond just vtubing or even anime. the normalization of sexual content in general, permissive mindsets around "no kink shaming" etc all give rise to the types of responses you'll see from lolicons. "If you don't like it just don't watch it" etc.

There are ways to deal with it. It takes a village however, and a very uncomfortable conversation that the wider weeb community (not just the VTubers) does not want to have. The lolicon is an invasive species. You go far enough back, they were not part of anime. Their introduction was an accident by all accounts by a single anime, which the creator himself regretted. That was the start. It never was contained. If it is to be stopped, the community itself must cast the lolicons out and say "not one of us".

 

[AngryAboutInternets]

I've recently been seeing more obvious pedophiles now making the argument of "If you think a little anime girl with a child physique in skimpy clothing is pedophilic, you're a pedophile" to try to do the most basic-bitch deflections whenever this topic gets brought up. Honestly, even being a very free speech oriented man, arguing with these people in brief exchanges has already made me want them thrown into woodchippers. Motherfucker I am not saying it should be illegal for some stupid bitch to put on a prepubescent voice and a "loli" avatar and then interact with a chat full of gooners stroking their cocks to her, but do not tell me it's not pedophile bait. It is obviously gray-area pedophile bait and everyone involved should be on a watchlist, just like the fuckers who cruise facebook for public child photos. Just because it's not illegal because any law to make it so would have a major chilling effect on speech, doesn't mean it's not immoral and fucking disgusting.

The only reason anyone would argue that shit like sawa's model isn't pedobait is to try to disguise their own fetishes out of (well-warranted and deserved) shame. For fuck's sake her head's diagonal side profile is literally toddler shaped. God I long for the day that net-culture-savvy people finally get power in policing and this shit has to go away because it can constitute probable cause for a search.

 

[Honored guest]

Goddamn these vtuber loli niggers are starting to show up for me on my shitposting twitter and I don't follow or engage in any anime shit, what the fuck.

 

[4090 Chad]

Goddamn these vtuber loli niggers are starting to show up for me on my shitposting twitter and I don't follow or engage in any anime shit, what the fuck.

Their algorithm is fucked. I’ve noticed that while you are scrolling the “For you” timeline, if you pause to look at or read something, even if it’s out of curiosity or disgust, the algorithm notices this and will instantly try and get you more of that content. Pure pajeet brained code.

 

[Burnt Fish]

There are ways to deal with it. It takes a village however, and a very uncomfortable conversation that the wider weeb community (not just the VTubers) does not want to have. The lolicon is an invasive species. You go far enough back, they were not part of anime. Their introduction was an accident by all accounts by a single anime, which the creator himself regretted. That was the start. It never was contained. If it is to be stopped, the community itself must cast the lolicons out and say "not one of us".

I think it's just going to take more than some simple gatekeeping/pressure from the community to get it done. I don't subscribe to the "just let them do things in the open otherwise they hide" mindset but I do recognize that if you try to make them unwelcome in a community, they'll just find some other place to gather.

Action from the streaming platforms would go a long way but unfortunately you can't expect youtube or twitch to move on much. Twitch has given some half measure actions toward loli vtubers, holding them to the standards of the child avatar they stream with. By temp banning Shondo a few times for things like drinking or doing sexually provocative stuff when her model is a child. But It's Twitch and they tend to just walk back punishments only doing them performatively and even when they aren't they are inconsistent as all hell.

If anything were to be done on the topic I would think it would need to be enough of the community starting to pressure those platforms about the pedo content on their platforms. I could also see a world where the credit card companies could put that pressure on them if they became aware enough of it. Pixiv, a Japanese art posting website for example got shut out of money from American credit cards because of the questionable content they host. Which in Pixiv's case I believe their solution was just starting to block westerners out of some parts of the site. However if Twitch or Youtube suddenly was faced with the prospect of Credit Card companies no longer processing payments for donations on their platform they'd likely be forced into taking action on the offending creators.

Of course using financial institutions like that as a cudgel has it's own debatable merit and morality. But that's just me spitballing ways that I could see where change would actually occur.

 

[Imam Shamil]

I think it's just going to take more than some simple gatekeeping/pressure from the community to get it done.

The only real way I see lolicons getting gatekept is when the public starts believing lolicons are disgusting. But It seems apparent to me that people don't care or are ignorant of lolicons.

For example, Youtube is incredibly good at gatekeeping racists from their website, but that's only because the majority of the west believes racism is evil. The same thing has to happen with lolicons before change can occur.

So basically, people have to speak out against lolicons publicly. Thankfully, Kiwifarms is one outspoken place, but there needs to be way bigger influences before change occurs.

 

[COME ON OUT YOU RAPIST]

Their algorithm is fucked. I’ve noticed that while you are scrolling the “For you” timeline, if you pause to look at or read something, even if it’s out of curiosity or disgust, the algorithm notices this and will instantly try and get you more of that content. Pure pajeet brained code.

There's a genre of Youtube I can only call gross-out thumbnails where it's just gore, usually with a helping of trypophobia. I don't think clicking on stuff even activates it, they just feed you this trash if you leave Recommended on at all.

 

[The Lawgiver]

I've recently been seeing more obvious pedophiles now making the argument of "If you think a little anime girl with a child physique in skimpy clothing is pedophilic, you're a pedophile" to try to do the most basic-bitch deflections whenever this topic gets brought up. Honestly, even being a very free speech oriented man, arguing with these people in brief exchanges has already made me want them thrown into woodchippers. Motherfucker I am not saying it should be illegal for some stupid bitch to put on a prepubescent voice and a "loli" avatar and then interact with a chat full of gooners stroking their cocks to her, but do not tell me it's not pedophile bait. It is obviously gray-area pedophile bait and everyone involved should be on a watchlist, just like the fuckers who cruise facebook for public child photos. Just because it's not illegal because any law to make it so would have a major chilling effect on speech, doesn't mean it's not immoral and fucking disgusting.

There are people that project pedo shit onto others, and to act like that isn't a phenomenon when it's happened enough for there to be meme compilations of those kinds of people getting outed is just as retarded as people immediately jumping to frame others as pedos for finding something weird or skeevy.

The only reason anyone would argue that shit like sawa's model isn't pedobait is to try to disguise their own fetishes out of (well-warranted and deserved) shame. For fuck's sake her head's diagonal side profile is literally toddler shaped. God I long for the day that net-culture-savvy people finally get power in policing and this shit has to go away because it can constitute probable cause for a search.

I see what you're doing here and I do not appreciate it. You are literally doing the shit you fucking were talking about but it's good because it's saying people are pedos for not thinking it's pedo, and likely vagueposting to try and frame me as a one for finding the kani crew thing more important than the stupid fucking outfit. I do not see the anime character as "toddler shaped". The kani crew thing is a tell that there was some attempt at appearing under legal age, which is STILL INCREDIBLY FUCKING DISGUSTING, but I do not fucking see "toddler" there.

I looked up "anime toddler" on image search and all the results look like this.

If a vtuber looks like this they get the bullet immediately.
I'm pissed I even had to look this shit up to prove a point, this is likely gonna be my last post in here for a while.

 

[No-Eyed Square Guy]

Youtube is incredibly good at gatekeeping racists from their website, but that's only because the majority of the west believes racism is evil.

That's not even remotely true, but YouTube has made you believe it. That's how thoroughly they can mind-fuck you if they know how.

Convincing men that teenage girls (most lolishit isn't kids) are unsexy is much harder than that.

 

[Imam Shamil]

That's not even remotely true, but YouTube has made you believe it. That's how thoroughly they can mind-fuck you if they know how.

Convincing men that teenage girls (most lolishit isn't kids) are unsexy is much harder than that.

Sure. Maybe you're right. But it's still good to be outspoken. Hopefully it'll lead to some change.