Feminism discussion thread

[boxtail]

You know you can just be attracted to men in a normal way instead of imagining them having gay sex?

Cope and seethe

the real reason men harp on gross porn made for women is because they think it makes theirs look less awful, and you're playing into that by defending your own porn use

men accuse women's fluffy novels of being as bad as their porn. Their opinion on degeneracy can be disregarded.

 

[Feels Badman]

Cope and seethe

I'm not the one bringing up lolicon as a reason why me masturbating to gay men is actually feminist.

men accuse women's fluffy novels of being as bad as their porn. Their opinion on degeneracy can be disregarded.

Getting off on men fucking each other in the ass is degenerate whether men say it is or not.

 

[PhoBingas]

men accuse women's fluffy novels of being as bad as their porn. Their opinion on degeneracy can be disregarded.

Nobody ends up sex trafficked to make Diana Gabaldon novels.
When the product is free, they're marketing something else, and I wish it was something more people picked up on.

 

[Jellie Opal]

Let's not pretend writing aimed at women and their conceived sexual desires isn't rooted in anti-feminist rhetoric. So many "spicy" or "smutty" "novels" being touted around shit like BookTok is just repackaged rape. Women consuming porn is bad, point blank. Women practicing what they've read or seen in pornography is bad, point blank. Women promoting porn is bad, point blank. Comparisons to men's consumption is a red herring to progress and our own liberation from such systems.

There is, of course, the false dichotomy that pornography vs. hentai/manga/fujo/what-the-fuck-ever women consume is "just as bad." Comics and other written/drawn materials don't traffick others to star in their works, but like I've said above, that doesn't mean that these media texts aren't upholding patriarchal sexual standards. "Feminist porn" is an oxymoron and a shitlib psy-op to get women comfortable with and aroused by their own oppression. Patriarchal masculinity is founded on the subjugation of women, and anything that promotes the subjugation of women, especially through sexual means, is patriarchal. I don't care if a woman authors this type of content--she's a pornographer and all pornographers get the wall.

Source: I've exited too may all-female book clubs/reading groups where they all just wanted to read "romantasy," i.e. pornified rape, and have Big Feminist Discussions about why rape when it's authored by a woman is good actually because uhhhhhhhhhh getting off is feminist because uhhhhhhh anything a woman does is good!!!!!!!!!! (When are these fauxminist women going to go to bat for fellow rape-loving woman Ghislaine Maxwell, who, in light of today's "news" from the DOJ and FBI re: Epstein, apparently didn't do any trafficking to any clients? How can they sit idly by when innocent women like Maxwell, who made lots of autonomous choices as an individual agent, is suffering in a gilded cell? /sarcasm)

 

[boxtail]

View attachment 7614318

Let's not pretend writing aimed at women and their conceived sexual desires isn't rooted in anti-feminist rhetoric. So many "spicy" or "smutty" "novels" being touted around shit like BookTok is just repackaged rape. Women consuming porn is bad, point blank. Women practicing what they've read or seen in pornography is bad, point blank. Women promoting porn is bad, point blank. Comparisons to men's consumption is a red herring to progress and our own liberation from such systems.

There is, of course, the false dichotomy that pornography vs. hentai/manga/fujo/what-the-fuck-ever women consume is "just as bad." Comics and other written/drawn materials don't traffick others to star in their works, but like I've said above, that doesn't mean that these media texts aren't upholding patriarchal sexual standards. "Feminist porn" is an oxymoron and a shitlib psy-op to get women comfortable with and aroused by their own oppression. Patriarchal masculinity is founded on the subjugation of women, and anything that promotes the subjugation of women, especially through sexual means, is patriarchal. I don't care if a woman authors this type of content--she's a pornographer and all pornographers get the wall.

Source: I've exited too may all-female book clubs/reading groups where they all just wanted to read "romantasy," i.e. pornified rape, and have Big Feminist Discussions about why rape when it's authored by a woman is good actually because uhhhhhhhhhh getting off is feminist because uhhhhhhh anything a woman does is good!!!!!!!!!! (When are these fauxminist women going to go to bat for fellow rape-loving woman Ghislaine Maxwell, who, in light of today's "news" from the DOJ and FBI re: Epstein, apparently didn't do any trafficking to any clients? How can they sit idly by when innocent women like Maxwell, who made lots of autonomous choices as an individual agent, is suffering in a gilded cell? /sarcasm)

Where the fuck are you finding book clubs where women are reading about rape. As someone who frequents book clubs I think youre lieing hardcore, and also probably dont leave your house

 

[Feels Badman]

View attachment 7614318

Let's not pretend writing aimed at women and their conceived sexual desires isn't rooted in anti-feminist rhetoric. So many "spicy" or "smutty" "novels" being touted around shit like BookTok is just repackaged rape. Women consuming porn is bad, point blank. Women practicing what they've read or seen in pornography is bad, point blank. Women promoting porn is bad, point blank. Comparisons to men's consumption is a red herring to progress and our own liberation from such systems.

There is, of course, the false dichotomy that pornography vs. hentai/manga/fujo/what-the-fuck-ever women consume is "just as bad." Comics and other written/drawn materials don't traffick others to star in their works, but like I've said above, that doesn't mean that these media texts aren't upholding patriarchal sexual standards. "Feminist porn" is an oxymoron and a shitlib psy-op to get women comfortable with and aroused by their own oppression. Patriarchal masculinity is founded on the subjugation of women, and anything that promotes the subjugation of women, especially through sexual means, is patriarchal. I don't care if a woman authors this type of content--she's a pornographer and all pornographers get the wall.

Source: I've exited too may all-female book clubs/reading groups where they all just wanted to read "romantasy," i.e. pornified rape, and have Big Feminist Discussions about why rape when it's authored by a woman is good actually because uhhhhhhhhhh getting off is feminist because uhhhhhhh anything a woman does is good!!!!!!!!!! (When are these fauxminist women going to go to bat for fellow rape-loving woman Ghislaine Maxwell, who, in light of today's "news" from the DOJ and FBI re: Epstein, apparently didn't do any trafficking to any clients? How can they sit idly by when innocent women like Maxwell, who made lots of autonomous choices as an individual agent, is suffering in a gilded cell? /sarcasm)

It was quite literally last night that I finished reading ACOTAR, because I wanted to understand what people are talking about when they criticize it. It's fucking bad. Nobody was trafficked to make it, but that's about the best you can say about it, and for me that's not a high enough bar to consider it okay. If you're actually turned on by fictional women being drugged, mind controlled, stalked, humiliated, bruised, and forced into sexual acts against their will, you have a problem.

Nobody wants us to critically examine how misogyny affects female sexuality, because men are the ones who benefit from us not doing so. Whether it's using the existence of romantasy as an excuse for their own degeneracy, or finding willing victims to enact their gross kinks with, they benefit. There's a point where the romantasy obsession intersects with real life BDSM/simulated rape. I've seen photos of women with tattoos that say "consensual non consent" and an ACOTAR reference, or something similar. It's genuinely concerning.

 

[Jellie Opal]

Where the fuck are you finding book clubs where women are reading about rape. As someone who frequents book clubs I think youre lieing hardcore, and also probably dont leave your house

Heauxz can't even spell or use apostrophes correctly and I'm the one who doesn't leave the house? Mmkay sweaty. As "someone who frequents book clubs," methinks you'd be aware of how sentences and punctuation work.

"Smut" and "spicy" books and series aimed at women (like shit by Sarah J. Maas) frequently feature coerced sex and dubious consent in their novels. Shit where it'll be like "he pins my wrists to the bed and puts his fingers in my pussy without asking and starts masturbating me. I struggle and feel wet but I'm so powerless, oh no I came!!!!! The big strong man, who is a fairy-wolf hybrid, made me cum and I just don't know how to say no or even if I should!!!!" Pick up any "romantasy" "novel" and you'll find coercion, dubcon, manipulation, and very obviously, poorly written sexual dynamics that amount to little more than rape.

Anyway,

LOSER SPOTTED.

 

[boxtail]

Heauxz can't even spell or use apostrophes correctly and I'm the one who doesn't leave the house? Mmkay sweaty. As "someone who frequents book clubs," methinks you'd be aware of how sentences and punctuation work.

"Smut" and "spicy" books and series aimed at women (like shit by Sarah J. Maas) frequently feature coerced sex and dubious consent in their novels. Shit where it'll be like "he pins my wrists to the bed and puts his fingers in my pussy without asking and starts masturbating me. I struggle and feel wet but I'm so powerless, oh no I came!!!!! The big strong man, who is a fairy-wolf hybrid, made me cum and I just don't know how to say no or even if I should!!!!" Pick up any "romantasy" "novel" and you'll find coercion, dubcon, manipulation, and very obviously, poorly written sexual dynamics that amount to little more than rape.

Anyway,

LOSER SPOTTED.

Women and men consume rape fiction different ways, I dont think theyre comparable. Wanting to be ravaged is different than wanting to rape someone, and one is obviously worse.
But yes I generally dont give a shit about what women are writing about. You you wanna police every other women for not being femanist enough, congrats, you can be the biggest most femanist around. In terms of problems, middle aged women reading about "he touched my pussy without asking!!" is like... so what.

 

[Big Miss Steak]

middle aged women reading about "he touched my pussy without asking!!" is like... so what.

"What's the big deal with romance targeted at women that normalizes sexual assault?" fuck off

Romantasy or smutty books will never be as vile as men's pornography because actual people aren't being trafficked/hurt but that doesn't mean it isn't harmful for normalizing abuse or assault. Like, both things can be true.

 

[Feels Badman]

Women and men consume rape fiction different ways, I dont think theyre comparable

You started comparing them, because making comparisons is how you cope with being a porn addicted loser. "At least I'm not as big of a loser as men who watch loli rape porn!!" Great, you're still a loser though.

 

[PhoBingas]

Romantasy or smutty books will never be as vile as men's pornography because actual people aren't being trafficked/hurt but that doesn't mean it isn't harmful for normalizing abuse or assault. Like, both things can be true.

100%. It's not like there was a scandal with the leading romance novel publishing house employing a bunch of teenagers between the ages of like 13 and 16. Now say the same thing about certain major porn sites. IIRC it was pornhub that got in hot water for having a bunch of underage content but it got buried in the media for all the usual reasons. It's shocking how normalized it's become, but what's more shocking is how rabid some people get when you mention that "Hey, maybe we should do something about kids being able to access porn."
The wall is too good for pornographers. Take 'em to a field or empty lot and make Pol Pot proud.

 

[Jellie Opal]

It was quite literally last night that I finished reading ACOTAR, because I wanted to understand what people are talking about when they criticize it. It's fucking bad. Nobody was trafficked to make it, but that's about the best you can say about it, and for me that's not a high enough bar to consider it okay. If you're actually turned on by fictional women being drugged, mind controlled, stalked, humiliated, bruised, and forced into sexual acts against their will, you have a problem.

Jinx!! We both referenced the same degen author and her series!

Women and men consume rape fiction different ways, I dont think theyre comparable. Wanting to be ravaged is different than wanting to rape someone, and one is obviously worse.
But yes I generally dont give a shit about what women are writing about. You you wanna police every other women for not being femanist enough, congrats, you can be the biggest most femanist around. In terms of problems, middle aged women reading about "he touched my pussy without asking!!" is like... so what.

Anyone consuming or creating rape pornography is degenerate and indicative of a sick society.

I'll grant you that there is a difference IRL between the actor of rape and the one who is acted upon and that their differences are up for debate, but I'll also lol at the fact that you say that their consumption of related material isn't comparable and then go on in the next sentence to compare and then judge one action over the other. Lol. Lmfao, even. "UWU women consuming rape fiction waaaaant to "be ravaged!!!" but men read rape fiction to get off because they wanna be the rapist!!!! And that's obviously WORSE!!" Hey guess what: both are bad. Whether literarily experiencing this content as wannabe rapist or victim, either sex consuming this content is degenerate. The consumer is degenerate regardless of their reasoning. They're both consuming rape porn. They're both getting off to it, and they're both fucked up. They're increasing the demand for this type of content.

Also, acting like I'm ~*~policing~*~ other women for "not being feminist enough" when I'm criticizing cultural behavior from within my own sex is gay and lame. I'm not going around telling women that they're eeeeeeevil and should be shoved into the Problem Attic. As evidenced by my former comment, I've left reading groups where that sort of behavior/genre is dominant and quietly made my exit. I do my bitching on the web, as evidenced by *gestures around*.

Additionally, ~middle-aged women~ aren't the only ones consuming this type of content. Teen girls and even children are exposed to rape pornography, and many of them, especially with the advent of social media, are shown/advertised media that represents it and utilizes its cinematic/literary language to groom them into submission and hypersexualization. This constant consumption, even casually, normalizes this shit for them. Earlier ITT, others were discussing how porn references/fetishes made their way into content aimed at children, like cartoons. When teen girls and young women under the age of 25 are groomed culturally with media that promotes rape, unequal if not abusive sex relations, and their intellectually lazy justifications of "if you choose it, it's good," it's not far-fetched to criticize how we got here and how it's affecting our world. Boo hoo if some people want to defend their degeneracy. They're not unique nor new nor convincing. The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun.

What a pathetically misogynistic and dismissive demographic for you to trot out in order to personify your point. "Durr bhurr middle aged biddies jerking it to romance book porn isn't a big problem." Anyone making or consuming this content has a problem. Its very existence is indicative of inequal sex dynamics culturally, socially, legislatively, and it must be challenged. Who cares about winning The Biggest Most Bestest Feminist Award when we are being groomed through media?

Incredibly uncompelling and uncritical. Face the wall.

 

[boxtail]

Are women grooming other women? Its women writing for other women who are buying these books for that express purpose. In children's media its men covertly including fetish material to trick children into consuming it. One is grooming the other is not.

 

[Feels Badman]

Its women writing for other women who are buying these books for that express purpose. In children's media its men covertly including fetish material to trick children into consuming it.

At least half of these books are marketed and sold as YA, which means adolescent girls are consuming them, most likely without knowing what's in them. People had no problem criticizing Twilight back in the day for having a stalker love interest who's way older than the female character chronologically. This is worse, and it's marketed towards the same age demographic as Twilight was.

I notice you're also continually moving the goalposts with every response. First no women are consuming rape porn books, then it's fine because it's older women doing it. What's next, it's okay for teen girls to read this stuff because at least they're not watching actual rape on film?

 

[Jellie Opal]

Are women grooming other women? Its women writing for other women who are buying these books for that express purpose. In children's media its men covertly including fetish material to trick children into consuming it. One is grooming the other is not.

Once again, pathetic and uncritical reasoning. Anyone can be a groomer. Women encouraging other women to think and act certain ways is not uncommon at all. It happens all the time in real life: women providing girls and other women media and materials meant to make them dependent upon the patriarchal system. I just mentioned Ghislaine Maxwell not too long ago ITT. If you want to get for real, read the US v. Pipkins case, one of the biggest prostitution ring bust-ups in the United States, and read about the "bottom bitches" (actual term) who groomed young girls into the prostitution rings. These older women, also prostituted by these pimps, used pornography, written and visual, to explain to the girls what prostitution would be like and what to expect from johns and how to treat their pimps.

Female authors writing about rape porn for other women to get off are complicit in a patriarchal system. Women selling subservience to other women are degenerate, and I don't find the "but some women get off to it/profit from writing about it" argument compelling. Quit consuming porn: all your gray matter is leaking out from your brain each time you goon, making you stupider.

 

[YWNBAM]

Are women grooming other women?

Yeah, this can also happen. You were clearly yourself exposed to degenerate misogynistic homo porn rather young which led you to obsess over it and defend it's shitty ideas.

 

[Nip Slip]

I've always assumed women into rape smut are actually just into CNC (Consenting Non-Consenting), and want their ideal moid crush to desire her so badly he just can't help himself.

Spoiler: If anything I picture it like this meme lmao

It's not a healthy approach to intimacy and shouldn't be accepted as a normal kink, but it can't be remotely compared to the degenerate stuff men come up with imo.

 

[boxtail]

At least half of these books are marketed and sold as YA, which means adolescent girls are consuming them. People had no problem criticizing Twilight back in the day for having a stalker love interest who's way older than the female character chronologically. This is worse, and it's marketed towards the same age demographic as Twilight was.

I notice you're also continually moving the goalposts with every response. First no women are consuming rape porn books, then it's fine because it's older women doing it. What's next, it's okay for teen girls to read this stuff because at least they're not watching actual rape on film?

Im not moving the goalposts, youre just purposefully misinterpreting what I'm saying and then getting mad about it.
Women in book clubs are not reading rape books. Im in one and its usually mystery novels, literally not a single book featured rape even in a negative light. Even if you're saying your book clubs read ACOTAR, literally when is there a sex scene featuring rape? I think some characters have SA backgrounds but its like an offscreen "muh tragic backstory" type thing, and the only slightly non consent thing is I think someome bathed naked in a crowded room.
2. I dont care if a middle aged woman reads rape. Shes not going to go out and rape someone. Shes not even saying women should be raped. But even then WHAT book are you reading in bookclub are you reading where this scenerio is depicted, tell me.
Even your Twilight refernece is kind of over the top. Its a guy whose enamored with a women who returns these feelings. Women arent reading these and being like "if a much older guy stalks me this is perfectly okay" no, even the biggest Twilight fan is not going to be okay with that. Women get insane flack for their content. Even in the beginning of this, you said yaoi wasnt femanist enough because "women arent inserting themselves into the role of women". Women arent inserting themselves into yaoi, not everyone wants themselves to be involved. Youre just demanding women insert themselves for literally what purpose.
My point is youre focusing on criticizing women specifically. Its like complaining about the anthill next to a mountain.

 

[Feels Badman]

you said yaoi wasnt femanist enough because "women arent inserting themselves into the role of women"

It's spelled feminist, not femanist, and I certainly never said anything like that. Yaoi isn't feminist because it's degenerate fucking porn. Nobody has said anything different except you. You're focused on defending certain types of porn because other types happen to be worse. I'm saying all porn is bad, full stop.

Women arent inserting themselves into yaoi, not everyone wants themselves to be involved. Youre just demanding women insert themselves for literally what purpose.

You are insanely brain damaged if you think anyone has demanded that you self-insert into porn. You are actually losing IQ points in real time from the content you consume. Stop it. Get some help.

My point is youre focusing on criticizing women specifically. Its like complaining about the anthill next to a mountain.

If you weren't sitting here defending porn, nobody would be criticizing it or you, and we would all be hating on men as usual. Stop defending porn and the criticism of porn will stop.

 

[Jellie Opal]

This is what im referencing.

You keep doing ad homimem attacks like I give a shit. If you were really against porn you would have said that, rather than critisizing women for reading "rape books" at book club (once again WHAT book are you talking about). I think your version of feminism is just criticizing other women while ignoring men. Oh yes these young women are all getting groomed into choking fetishes by older women, this is totally sound and based in reality. If women just stopped liking yaoi and romance novels we'd be free

Both Feels BadMan and I have mentioned Sarah J. Maas' series. Rebecca Yarros is another derivative romantasy author who reinforces sexist tropes. Another older series that was resurrected recently in wake of the romantasy trend is Anne Rice's Sleeping Beauty series. All of these were recommended in these book groups, online and offline, that I was in. Remember the pandemic? Remember when that happened? People started promoting and meeting online to discuss their interests? That's when a lot of these books were published and gaining traction. Adding any more titles to this point would not convince you, as you're committed to typing one handed since your other hand is down your pants.

"I think your version of feminism is just criticizing other women while ignoring men." Nobody's ignored men in here. I've repeatedly mentioned how women reinforce patriarchal systems, in case you're too retarded to go back and read. Women are autonomous agents and are not free from criticism or scrutiny by other women. Pretending that women can't or shouldn't be criticized isn't feminist. It's benevolent sexism. Additionally warping my former points to reinforce your arguments is also stupid. I've never said young women were being groomed solely by older women; I rightfully pointed out that women contribute to patriarchal society in a number of ways, mainly ITT through media.

But to the choking point, women like Amber Rose/Sabrina Carpenter/porn stars like Sasha Grey and Mia Khalifa, DO encourage women to partake in violent, degrading sex acts--they just also encourage them to get paid for it. They're not free of criticism, either. They, too, will get the wall. To reiterate Feels BadMan's point above: