Christian theology thread for Christians - Deus homo factus est naturam erante, mundus renovatus est a Christo regnante

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Let's read the official position of the Catholic Chruch, shall we?

Was it worth it, Martin?
Yeah, he forced Rome to use the same language because it's Biblical, even though what they mean by that language is not exactly the same as what he or the other Reformers or the early church mean by it. Nevertheless, it was an improvement - so yeah, it was worth it.
 
Love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control.

There's not a human being on the face of the earth who actually displays any of those traits with any consistency.

You certainly don't. Just look in the mirror. Nor do any of your family members. Nor do any of your friends. Nor do any of the human beings on the face of the earth.
This is true.
The "saved" are indistinguishable from the "perishing," in terms of their life choices and behaviors.
This is not true.

The way you are writing makes it seem as though you hold God personally responsible for something that has happened in your life at the hands of someone calling themselves a Christian.
 
There's not a human being on the face of the earth who actually displays any of those traits with any consistency.

Correct, I am a sinner, and so is every Christian on earth, including the Pope. The Church isn't a museum for perfect saints, it's a hospital for sinners: "Jesus said, “It is not those who are healthy who need a physician, but those who are sick. But go and learn what this means: ‘I desire compassion, and not sacrifice,’ for I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners.”" – Matt 9:12-13

So, the indwelling of the Holy Spirit doesn't give us immediate and effortless perfection, that's not what Christ or His Church have ever taught. Quite the contrary, sanctification is a lifelong process of growing in holiness. Just because we are justified, that doesn't mean the tendency to sin (concupiscence), magically disappears. Christian life is an ongoing battle, (Ephesians 6:12), where we must cooperate with the grace of the Holy Spirit to overcome this concupiscence and grow in virtue. This is very, very hard. Especially in our modern world.

So, the Holy Spirit works with our wounded human nature to heal and elevate it. Every time we sin, it is not because the Holy Spirit has failed, but because we have failed to cooperate with the grace He has offered us. And the Church holds up thousands of examples of those who have successfully cooperated with the Holy Spirit: the Saints.

Look at St. Francis of Assisi, who radiated a supernatural love for all creation. Look at St. Maximilian Kolbe, who showed the ultimate self-control and love by volunteering to die for another man in Auschwitz. Look at St. Thérèse of Lisieux, who found immense joy and peace in the smallest acts of faithfulness.

They are the proof that with heroic cooperation with God's grace, holiness is possible. The rest of us are simply still under construction. Remember, the true measure of the faith is not the absence of sin, but the repentance that follows it. Don't stay black-pilled brother, look at the lives of our many great Saints rather than the wretched lives of the countless sinner who roam the earth.

Why can't they complain? The argument is that only God can forgive sins, not the institution of the Church.
Likewise, travesties like indulgences, simony, Albigensian/Hussite genocides, Medici/Borgia Papacies did in fact happen. Theoretically the doctrine is supposed to be unchanging, but it clearly has changed - whether that be how people understand it or how it is practiced.
True, fundamentally, only God can forgive sins. But, in His wisdom, God chose to delegate His authority to men to act as His instruments on earth. Just after His Resurrection, Jesus appeared to His Apostles and said: 'Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I send you.' And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, 'Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.' – John 20:21-23

And, while the Church is a divine institution, the Mystical Body of Christ and the Bride of Christ, she is also composed of sinners. Our Lord Himself predicted this when he compared the Kingdom of Heaven to a net that catches fish of every kind, good and bad (Matthew 13:47-50), and to a field with both wheat and weeds growing together until the harvest (Matthew 13:24-30).

The sins of popes like the Borgias, or the abuses of bishops who sold indulgences, are a scandal and a grave stain. They're a betrayal of their sacred office. But, the sinfulness of the men doesn't cancel the divine nature of the office they hold. A corrupt judge doesn't invalidate the Constitution. A bad president doesn't nullify the presidency. The Church has survived centuries of attack both from the outside and corruption from within is probably, this is probably one of the strongest arguments for her divine protection. No other institution can make that claim.

If God founded His Church on earth, wouldn't the enemy do everything in his power to destroy it from within and from without, through schism and spreading falsehood and misinformation about it? No other Church gets attacked like the Catholic Church does, there's a reason for that.

This leads us to our next point, confusion about indulgences. There is a common mistake of confusing three distinct things: Dogma, Discipline, and Development. This is easily corrected with a 2-second Google search, but here's the gist of it:
  • Dogma is the divinely revealed truth of the Faith (e.g., the Trinity, the Incarnation, the Real Presence, the authority to forgive sins). This is unchangeable and infallible.
  • Discipline are the practical rules and regulations of the Church (e.g., how indulgences are administered, the requirement of priestly celibacy in the Latin Rite, the laws of fasting). These are man-made and can and do change over time to suit the needs of the faithful.
  • Development of Doctrine is that our understanding of the unchanging Dogma can deepen and become more clearly articulated over time, without the Dogma itself changing.
Indulgences is the perfect example: the dogma of indulgences (that the Church has the authority from Christ to dispense graces from the Treasury of Merit to remit the temporal punishment due to sin) has never changed. As a matter of fact, I can obtain a partial, or even a plenary, indulgence right now if I want, free of charge. The discipline surrounding them (specifically, the practice of asking for alms in connection with an indulgence) led to a grave abuse: the sale of indulgences. So, the Council of Trent did not abolish the doctrine of indulgences. On the contrary, it strongly reaffirmed the doctrine but condemned the sinful abuse of simony and reformed the discipline to prevent it from happening again.

The correction of a sinful practice is not a change in doctrine, it is a purification of practice in service of the unchanging doctrine.
 
Yeah, he forced Rome to use the same language because it's Biblical, even though what they mean by that language is not exactly the same as what he or the other Reformers or the early church mean by it. Nevertheless, it was an improvement - so yeah, it was worth it.
What language did the Church use before? Please provide quotes and sources. You'll be hard-pressed to find any Magisterial document claiming justification isn't from Grace.
Why is what Martin and his little reformer friends "mean by that language" important?
And please quote and source the Church Fathers you vague-post about to substantiate your point.

I did, so it's the very least you can do after making such bold claims.
 
If Christianity actually worked, meaning the Spirit of God actually lived inside of you and remade you into a new creation, then you would be better than you are. And Christians in general would be better than they are. But every thought in the Christian's heart is wicked continually, as is true for all non-Christians. Your fake three-headed God doesn't actually make any of you holy, yet if your doctrine of the Trinity and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit were actually true, then you would be holy. Yet you aren't. And you never will be.
You seem to have a lack of underatanding relating to free will and how it works in the bible, what is your religious background in Christianity (what denom, how long, etc)? Cassius is 100% right, it sounds like you were fed poor theology and/or were personally wronged by a Christian during your past experience, so it all fell apart later. If that is the case then im sorry.

Unfortunately, poor theology has been the sand that many people trust pastors to build their houses upon, and we all know how that goes. 90% of rhe ex-christians i talk to say in no uncertain terms that they were promised something unbiblical by a chariamatic leader, who was apathetic to their problems when things inevitably fell apart.
 
The Church has survived centuries of attack both from the outside and corruption from within is probably, this is probably one of the strongest arguments for her divine protection. No other institution can make that claim.

Shintoism, the Orthodox Church, the Coptics, Ethiopian Church, Zoroastrianism, Jainism, Buddhism, and even the many groups that makeup Hinduism are just as old or older and have also survived persecution. The Christian churches mentioned here can even claim that they have changed less than Catholicism and have obviously faced more persecution (oftentimes by Catholics).

Council of Trent

The counter reformation only came about after the Church's started wars that killed tens of millions of people. It had to be dragged kicking and screaming out of corruption and even then has since remained a force for the elites, backing elitist authoritarian (and even fascist) governments and only putting a bandaid on poverty.

A corrupt judge doesn't invalidate the Constitution. A bad president doesn't nullify the presidency.

The entirety of the church engaged in these practices for centuries. Likewise, secular positions like presidencies and constitutions are basically invalidated all of the time. The Weimar constitution was only ended in 1946, but it obviously lost its meaning long before then.

No other Church gets attacked like the Catholic Church does, there's a reason for that.

The reason is that it's the biggest Church. It acquired this position through political alliances that allowed it to violently crush any opposition. It committed what many historians view as the first ideological genocides. Most criticism of the church is focused on this. The Church eventually lost most of its political power, but this current toothless institution is a recent development.
 
Cajun-Holy-Trinity (1).webp

The Cajun "Holy Trinity" is the cornerstone of many Cajun dishes and is composed of an equal mix of onion, celery, and bell pepper. In addition to this they can make, "The Holy Trinity and the pope" where garlic is added as well.

Bros is this an accurate metaphor for the triune God? 🤔🤔
 
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The Wisdom of Bl. Fulton Sheen

Day 191 - It is never true to say that we have no time to meditate; the less one thinks of God, the less time there will always be for God. The time we have for anything depends on how much we value it.

Book says "depends of how much we value it."
 
I don't understand the desire to have six children, I have one and that is more than enough to keep our hands full. I see these couples with five, six children and think, 'how can you possibly be keeping up with all their wants/needs at the same time'.

I like to joke it's the reason I could never be a Catholic,

"Catholic? No thank you, one child enough for us".
I think you might appreciate this Monty Python clip
 
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Shintoism, the Orthodox Church, the Coptics, Ethiopian Church, Zoroastrianism, Jainism, Buddhism, and even the many groups that makeup Hinduism are just as old or older and have also survived persecution.
None of them are institutions, and none come close to the scale of the Catholic Church.
The counter reformation only came about after the Church's started wars that killed tens of millions of people
Some say it was billions, perhaps even trillions of people. For no reason at all.
The entirety of the church engaged in these practices for centuries.
Yes, every single Bishop, Priest, Deacon, I heard even the laity was corrupt, down to the infants. Centuries upon centuries, it was horrible.
It committed what many historians view as the first ideological genocides
You say that like it's a bad thing. Some ideologies don't deserve to exist. The Catholic Church single-handedly save the West from becoming muslim, and it will do it again.
The Church eventually lost most of its political power, but this current toothless institution is a recent development.
Rerum Novarum had no effect on society, completely toothless, I tells ya!
only putting a bandaid on poverty.
This one is my favorite lie you've spouted. Good job, you son of the devil.
 
I don't think even Luther would agree with that. But he certainly did a very important thing right: he understood how God justifies us through his free gift of grace, and brought that good news to the masses for them to hear, repent, and believe for their salvation.
Luther called himself a miserable bag of worms, and Augustinianism isn't known for having a optimistic view of human nature. People often sum this up as "Lord have mercy upon me for I am both evil and retarded."
 
The Wisdom of Bl. Fulton Sheen

Day 192 - Because he's born in a cave, all who wish to see him must bend, must stoop, the stoop is the mark of humility. The proud refuse to stoop. Therefore they miss divinity. Those, however, who are willing to risk bending their egos to go into that cave, find that they are not in a cave at all; but they are in a universe where sits a babe on his mother's lap, the babe who made the world.
 
Roman Catholic trying to avoid damning anyone who disagrees with them challenge (impossible)
I prefer latins with a bit of fire and brimstone methinks, cause the ones that arnt are all wierdos who pray with muslims. At least the the former has a real position that I can exchange discourse with, Ive talked with one of those uniates and it seemed like basically anything goes theologically for them as long as you submit to the Pope. Its kinda wild.
Also remember that Luther himself would call the Pope the antichrist, this isnt a one way street.
 
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I prefer latins with a bit of fire and brimstone methinks
Views on the afterlife are a big reason I'm a protestant. It's easy to look at Roman Catholics with doctrines like purgatory and salvation for the unlearned and think, 'these people have gone theologically off the rails', but then I look at the Orthodox with their doctrines of praying people out of Hell, no fire in Hell, and the 40 day journey into the afterlife, and suddenly the Catholics don't look so bad.

I'm mean I'll give Catholics this, at least people sent to Hell stay there for eternity.
 
Views on the afterlife are a big reason I'm a protestant. It's easy to look at Roman Catholics with doctrines like purgatory and salvation for the unlearned and think, 'these people have gone theologically off the rails', but then I look at the Orthodox with their doctrines of praying people out of Hell, no fire in Hell, and the 40 day journey into the afterlife, and suddenly the Catholics don't look so bad.

I'm mean I'll give Catholics this, at least people sent to Hell stay there for eternity.
 
, no fire in Hell
I'm mean I'll give Catholics this, at least people sent to Hell stay there for eternity
The nature of Hell is often debated. What we know for certain is that Hell is total and complete separation from God, and only God knows who might be sent there.

Some consider the fire and brimstone talk to be more poetic/artistic language than real. It could very well be that Hell is just nothingness. Considering that God is the Father of all creation, it isnt unreasonable to suppose that total and complete separation from Him is the absence of existence. That line of thinking also aligns with the notion that God is infinitely loving and merciful. After all what mercy is there in an eternity of torment for the sins of fleeting mortality?
 
The nature of Hell is often debated. What we know for certain is that Hell is total and complete separation from God, and only God knows who might be sent there.
I like the bolded part, I'm glad that (unlike the Orthodox) the Catholics will at least admit Hell is eternal

However I think (correct me if I'm wrong) Fire and Brimstone is the Catholic Church official position, even if it is very begrudgingly, assuming Our Lady of Fatima is accepted by the Church (where Mary shows people literally burning in Hell) my assumption is this is the Church's position.

What I was trying to say was that when I started learning about the Catholic position on the afterlife I was like, "Wow these guys are off the rails man with this purgatory stuff and this nonsense about unlearned people being saved". Then I heard the Orthodox don't believe in Purgatory so I thought, "Let me go check them out, maybe they have a better view on things," and then I was like, "You know, actually the Catholics are a lot closer to the Bible than I realized".


This was literally my reaction to reading about the Orthodox's view of a 40 day journey to Heaven:

 
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