Mega Rad Gun Thread

[Seafarer]

 

[Gurney Halleck]

This thread should just become the P320 death watch thread at this point. Mischief Machine is a smaller shop that makes grip modules for a bunch of FCU pistols and they just announced they're no longer making P320 parts because it's causing reputational damage at this point. The owner also comments on distressingly easy he found it was to disable the striker safety on the P320 with just brass shavings. It's a real shame, I had one of his P320 commander modules when I still had a P320 and it was a very well-made, tight-fitting piece. Much more than can be said for the P320 as a whole.

 

[Club Sandwich]

This thread should just become the P320 death watch thread at this point. Mischief Machine is a smaller shop that makes grip modules for a bunch of FCU pistols and they just announced they're no longer making P320 parts because it's causing reputational damage at this point. The owner also comments on distressingly easy he found it was to disable the striker safety on the P320 with just brass shavings. It's a real shame, I had one of his P320 commander modules when I still had a P320 and it was a very well-made, tight-fitting piece. Much more than can be said for the P320 as a whole.

very sad, and an unfortunate position to be in since pissing off the manufacturer of the product you make accessories for isn't good while also selling accessories for an unpopular, hated, or dangerous product will piss off the customer base, but ultimately only one of them actually pays the bills. i still think the P250, much like how the SP2022 is sometimes maligned, is a pretty decent pistol overall - the whole frame module thing being pretty neat. SIG should probably have redesigned from scratch or vastly simplified how the sear interacts.

 

[Gurney Halleck]

SIG should probably have redesigned from scratch or vastly simplified how the sear interacts.

The sad part is they did; with the P365. I firmly believe Sig would be much more well-regarded right now even with Ron Cohen fucking everything up if they had lost the MHS competition and then while licking their wounds, built their next-gen duty pistol off of the P365's FCU design. They might not have gotten all of the initial buzz of being 'da Army gun!' with all of the LE contracts that were signed based off of just that, but they'd probably still be a solid competitor for 3rd place or something with the M&P. It's beyond obvious now the P320 was never meant to exist outside of a prototype proof of concept and them managing to blunder into winning the big Army contract with it has made it impossible for them to back down on it now.

 

[likeacrackado]

Fucking why? The market is absolutely flooded with polymer striker fires you can't find holsters for already. Colt fanboys (besides the collectors that own shit like the American 2000) want nothing to do with this and just wish they'd unfuck their QC.

The only people who are gonna buy this are turbo normies who get it pushed on them by the local brick & motar by the clerk just trying to get it out of the counter already.

Looks like a CZ P10C clone. Its a fairly well regarded gun, so a US version with the Colt name behind it could compete for LE contracts. Better get it out the door soon, I hear a bunch of PDs are dumping their carry guns.

 

[World Famous Quasi Payer]

View attachment 7697548

I'd buy a P320 if everyone at BRC had to carry one for a year. Kyle hating faggots can do us all a favor, and seek Canadian healthcare.

 

[Falcos_Commisar]

meanwhile, during pistol quals

View attachment 7697170

Ahaha oh my God that's... Not a good look

it's pretty sad that when i was still in BCT, to even complete week 4, you had to had 23/40 at 50 through 300 meters or you failed, had remedial and if you kept failing you would be separated from service. most people (from my own memory, so maybe i'm wrong or we were an outlier) were in the 30+ range. people that had 35 or better could try the 800 meter targets. i still remember my score of 40/40 and 38/40 earning me a sharpshooter badge at Campbell's 800 meter range with an old M16A1E1. good times.

i figured that the rumors of just allowing qualifications on red dots were exactly that - rumors, and you would get training on them together with normal training with iron sights. that's how it was in the 80's through the 90's and into the 2000's. basic marksmanship fundamentals was required for mastering the very expensive, and you're responsible for buying the batteries for, electro-optics.

edit: also completing BCT isn't the end of rifleman training. combat arms goes to schools for specialty training on top of it, regular qualification if their job is specific and has new gear or doctrine, and multiple field exercises per year, not to include combined arms training or integration and familiarization training which also happen often enough - typically before deployments.

i had far less frequent training during my law enforcement career than my time in the military purely due to cost concerns and a bigger focus on the law and community aspects of the job vs when my job was primarily to be pointed at things and told to make them go away permanently.

Sounds like prior Army combat arms which makes sense. After Basic it's off to AIT and so on. Even then you'll have guys that BARELY know which end of the rifle the bullets come out of.

The Army HR lady/barber/dentist/ cook/ IT guy/ helicopter pilot/ SAM operator/ linguist/ Intel analyst / vehicle mechanic / vehicle operator is probably not touching an M4A1 more than the minimum required number of times a year the moment he/she leaves Basic.

That said the optics make 0-300 meter shots much easier now, especially LPVOs, Acogs, and red dots, as long as they're properly zeroed.

The only "wonder sight" that seems to work in a relatively realistic manner and as advertised is this unusual anti drone sight from Israel, the Smash 2000L, which the USMC has bought. Even then it apes a EoTech with a smart reticle and doesn't really talk about making hits easier past 300 meters.

https://www.smart-shooter.com/

 

[AGPinochet]

This thread should just become the P320 death watch thread at this point.

 

[MG-34]

Never thought I'd see Null talk about Sig on the MATI stream. Does anyone know if made in Indian Sig parts made it to the US military? Would be a real big deal.

 

[Romulus augustulus]

Never thought I'd see Null talk about Sig on the MATI stream. Does anyone know if made in Indian Sig parts made it to the US military? Would be a real big deal.

there is a seperate govt. production line. I don't know if they use indian parts in that or not. IIRC the law that mandates US military gear be made in the US does not apply to firearms.

 

[MG-34]

IIRC the law that mandates US military gear be made in the US does not apply to firearms.

It's been years but I could have sworn the Aimpoint Comp M2s used on M16s and M4s had "Made in Sweeden" printed on them and the M110 sniper rifles were actually built in Germany and not a US located HK factory so that tracks, though I trust the Euros a hell of a lot more than fucking Indians.

 

[Ass to Ass]

there is a seperate govt. production line. I don't know if they use indian parts in that or not. IIRC the law that mandates US military gear be made in the US does not apply to firearms.

Not sure about that in particular, but I do know that the Buy American Act of 1933, the Berry Amendment, and the Defense Federal Acquisition Regulation Supplement all heavily incentivize the acquisition of military equipment from US defense suppliers, but don't absolutely require it.

 

[Club Sandwich]

law that mandates US military gear be made in the US does not apply to firearms.

it does, however an exception is required to be granted and on file and the product cannot be procured in sufficient quality or quantity in the US, as well as the components must still be sourced from an approved country and producer (with rare exceptions, like chinese made batteries for example was alright until 2017 when an executive order forbid sourcing a lot of that stuff from china directly, although chinese partially owned factories in a friendly country were a valid source.

for example since Sweden doesn't allow most Aimpoints to be made outside Sweden there is an exemption specifically for that item for each contract term (which must be reviewed and renewed or denied each time the contract is renegotiated). a Glock can be procured locally in the US (Georgia), that wouldn't apply, so no Austrian P80's would be imported.

 

[DocAwe]

it does, however an exception is required to be granted and on file and the product cannot be procured in sufficient quality or quantity in the US, as well as the components must still be sourced from an approved country and producer (with rare exceptions, like chinese made batteries for example was alright until 2017 when an executive order forbid sourcing a lot of that stuff from china directly, although chinese partially owned factories in a friendly country were a valid source.

for example since Sweden doesn't allow most Aimpoints to be made outside Sweden there is an exemption specifically for that item for each contract term (which must be reviewed and renewed or denied each time the contract is renegotiated). a Glock can be procured locally in the US (Georgia), that wouldn't apply, so no Austrian P80's would be imported.

Without other reading you're talking about the Berry amendment right?

 

[WhoBusTank69]

Ian dropped his P320 video.

The video has dropped.
TL;DW: Sig dug their hole, the P320 was always average or worse, nobody makes interesting enough gripframes for any modular pistol, buy a Glock, nobody knows the specific cause of uncommanded discharges but it doesn't matter because the P320 and SIG is fucked anyway.

 

[AncientPhosphur]

Watching taking notes.

Ian doesn't think there's a chance the P320 could fire on its own and there's never been a case of that, it's all hypothetical. Sig could obviously fix it, but the fact they haven't so it shows they dont know how it happens, but their reputation is ruined. P320 doesnt offer anything different than competitors. Recommends Springfield echelon and the RX delta as being better than the P320. And then the Glock (Glock supremacy). Sig is an unsolvable problem. Again no one can solve the P320. How many are out there firing uncommanded? (his words). Sig doesnt offer anything that anyone else has. Armorers are worried about cost of replacements and risk, the risk is impossible. You cant as an armorer so you have to go with your own judgement while competitors are salivating. Sig had drop safety issue with P320s they ignored for voluntary recall, second issue is the trigger safety you dont need. Trigger safety is off for a better press (my experience, lol lmao the trigger is shit on P320s) but trigger safeties couldve prevented issues. The world now thinks there is an issue with Sig but their past issues is their main issue. That shouldnt have been a problem but other gun companies need to take safety seriously enough. Sig doesnt know what the problem is again, they cheaped out and QC are bad, doesnt solve problem. "fine" direct quote. Doesn't know if it forces a recall or if Sig recalls. Recall is independent of a Sig recall so they should expand on other products and scale down P320. Problems are from the 250 to the 320. He's glad he's not Sig because 320 is hosed, its a dead product. Exposes on how the 1903 wasn't properly heat treated and ended it.

 

[Polock]

The video has dropped.
TL;DW: Sig dug their hole, the P320 was always average or worse, nobody makes interesting enough gripframes for any modular pistol, buy a Glock, nobody knows the specific cause of uncommanded discharges but it doesn't matter because the P320 and SIG is fucked anyway.

>a trigger safety would have prevented some of the uncommanded discharges

I am really interested in hearing him justify/expand on this position because its quite open ended. Is he implying that a trigger dingus (only just learned today what the technical term for it is) safety would have prevented these guns going off? Is he implying that because there was no trigger safety/external safety that the design of the gun lead it down the path to an eventual critical design failure?

The first is an aggravatingly Reddit-tier position that's probably technically correct but not what the actual issue around the P320 is. The FBI report and the guntuber soyjacking demonstrated that its not some retard getting his keys or t-shirt caught in his holster, its that minimal pressure on the slide and trigger causes the striker to just do whatever it wants to do. But also yeah um ackshully you don't know how every accident involving the P320 went down sweetie so its pointless to make any claims.

The second position I cant really argue about because I am a retard on the internet and this requires more nuance and knowledge about gun design than I can command.

It seems like he is sorta implying both.

 

[Smoke Manmuscle]

Watching taking notes.

Ian doesn't think there's a chance the P320 could fire on its own and there's never been a case of that, it's all hypothetical. Sig could obviously fix it, but the fact they haven't so it shows they dont know how it happens, but their reputation is ruined. P320 doesnt offer anything different than competitors. Recommends Springfield echelon and the RX delta as being better than the P320. And then the Glock (Glock supremacy). Sig is an unsolvable problem. Again no one can solve the P320. How many are out there firing uncommanded? (his words). Sig doesnt offer anything that anyone else has. Armorers are worried about cost of replacements and risk, the risk is impossible. You cant as an armorer so you have to go with your own judgement while competitors are salivating. Sig had drop safety issue with P320s they ignored for voluntary recall, second issue is the trigger safety you dont need. Trigger safety is off for a better press (my experience, lol lmao the trigger is shit on P320s) but trigger safeties couldve prevented issues. The world now thinks there is an issue with Sig but their past issues is their main issue. That shouldnt have been a problem but other gun companies need to take safety seriously enough. Sig doesnt know what the problem is again, they cheaped out and QC are bad, doesnt solve problem. "fine" direct quote. Doesn't know if it forces a recall or if Sig recalls. Recall is independent of a Sig recall so they should expand on other products and scale down P320. Problems are from the 250 to the 320. He's glad he's not Sig because 320 is hosed, its a dead product. Exposes on how the 1903 wasn't properly heat treated and ended it.

The problem he avoided talking about is that Sig already spent the past 8 years doubling down on this not being their fault. It’s not just the gun is bad but the company will refuse to do the right thing even if they realize they screwed up. Compare that to the 1903 debacle. They immediately stopped production, investigated and found the root cause, and corrected the problem. The correct comparison for this debacle is the Remington 700 trigger issue.

 

[WhoBusTank69]

I am really interested in hearing him justify/expand on this position because its quite open ended. Is he implying that a trigger dingus (only just learned today what the technical term for it is) safety would have prevented these guns going off? Is he implying that because there was no trigger safety/external safety that the design of the gun lead it down the path to an eventual critical design failure?

He seems to have adopted the traditional Sigger defense in that it's an assumption that the argument has to do with the trigger itself whereas nobody criticizing the design has brought it up beyond the occasional "They removed the trigger dingus from the production design how curious".
Considering the FBI is the only institution of note to have investigated this and have disclosed findings similar to the internet gun community in that a trigger dingus would not have solved it(evidenced by M17/M18s with manual safeties going off) he is aggressively missing the point and will not make friends with this in order to remain on good terms with the industry.

 

[DocAwe]

Didn't Sig basically give Ian a free 320?
Might be why he's acting kinda skiddish about the whole thing.