Open Source Software Community - it's about ethics in Code of Conducts

DavidS877 said:
If I need to switch kernels, test different command line parameters or just choose a different OS then I have a lovely menu in Grub already. the EFISTUB people just say "Oh, just use a EFI Bootloader selector like REFind..." But I've already got Grub.
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EFI already allows you to select which entry to boot (at least all implementations I've tried)?
 
Hannibalistique said:
Why do people still use shit like grub, gummiboot (or whatever it forked into), etc. after we got EFISTUB?
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Because it works?
Subtle Foreshadowing said:
Yeah buddy sure, whatever helps you sleep at night.
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The patches are there to make it work. GRUB being shit software does not change the fact that it works, and it works across different CPU architectures and machines.
If the distro installer installs the bootloader for me, and the bootloader works correctly, I don't see a reason to change it. GRUB, with whatever patches applied by distros, and whatever hacks applied during grub-install ticks both boxes for me.
ETA: lol ninja'd
 
The Real Slim Shady said:
The patches are there to make it work.
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The Real Slim Shady said:
and it works across different CPU architectures
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"it needs patches to work, so therefore it works"

You're just saying words atp. At some point, surely something is gonna toast your GRUB setup (happened twice when I used to run Arch), or your dualbooted Windows system decides to do what Windows does best (breaking your shit), or you just wanna change a setting or two. You're almost guaranteed to interact with the software you're using and it sucking hot ass plays a factor on how well you can do so.

Don't bother with something that needs 20 dozen rolls of duct tape just to hold it in place and somewhat resemble an actually working piece of program. Just use Limine or rEFInd or systemd-boot or whatever the fuck that actually works, instead of self-cucking yourself with poop from butt because "it just works"
 
To be the devil's advocate, GRUB offers you a familiar, always-on menu selection. On debian derivatives it's used to select which kernel you want to boot or if you want recovery. It's the same deal with Windows, but on Windows the menu is hidden and you have to hold down F8. So yes, EFI can boot a kernel directly, but I am not aware of an UEFI implementation that lets you, for example, edit the boot option string passed to the kernel.

EDIT: Neither of the problems you mention is a grub problem

At some point, surely something is gonna toast your GRUB setup (happened twice when I used to run Arch)
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skill issue
or your dualbooted Windows system decides to do what Windows does best (breaking your shit)
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Also skill issue, this is a known problem with dual booting, either use Windows boot manager as primary bootloader or bite the bullet, or use two separate disk drives.
You're almost guaranteed to interact with the software you're using and it sucking hot ass plays a factor on how well you can do so.
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It's actually motherboard vendor EFI that sucks, because they prioritize adjusting LED colors and fan curves in the UI over passing arguments to the OS kernel (see above)
 
The Real Slim Shady said:
skill issue
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Yeah my bad, should have switched to NixOS earlier. (totally not GRUB's fault)
Also skill issue, this is a known problem with dual booting
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Again, my bad. I dropped the Windows dualboot too. It's just not worth it. (the issue is still totally not GRUB)
either use Windows boot manager as primary bootloader
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goy (STILL not GRUB btw)
or bite the bullet, or use two separate disk drives.
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I'm not buying another disk drive just to remedy for a retarded piece of software (okay maybe GRUB was like 1% responsible)
It's actually motherboard vendor EFI that sucks
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Yeah.
 
Subtle Foreshadowing said:
Again, my bad. I dropped the Windows dualboot too. It's just not worth it. (the issue is still totally not GRUB)
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The issue is retarded software overwriting parts of the disk it should not touch, Windows is assuming that the disk only contains windows installs. It's going to break systemd-boot and LILO and everything else the same way. You do not understand how this shit works, I will not continue derailing the thread.
 
The Real Slim Shady said:
Also skill issue, this is a known problem with dual booting, either use Windows boot manager as primary bootloader or bite the bullet, or use two separate disk drives.
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Since UEFI i haven't once had Windows cause any problems with Grub as a primary bootloader with a single shared EFI partition in my dual boot systems despite updates and everything else.
 
Subtle Foreshadowing said:
something is gonna toast your GRUB setup (happened twice when I used to run Arch)
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Not a GRUB issue. Happened to me several times with rEFInd. Been burnt enough by this to keep a recovery USB stick nearby.

Subtle Foreshadowing said:
Again, my bad. I dropped the Windows dualboot too. It's just not worth it. (the issue is still totally not GRUB)
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GRUB has nothing to do with it. Windows will overwrite your boot partition with its shit whether you like it or not, and whether you use GRUB, rEFInd, or, god forbid, systemd-boot. That's just Windows being Windows and thinking of itself as the Only Operating System on the computer.

(Granted, I could be talking out of my ass here. As @DavidS877 noted, it doesn't quite make sense with UEFI, and I haven't dual-booted Windows in over half a decade.)

Subtle Foreshadowing said:
Don't bother with something that needs 20 dozen rolls of duct tape just to hold it in place and somewhat resemble an actually working piece of program.
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Have you seen any piece of software, ever? There's always some duct tape involved. You should be thankful it's being applied for you by people smarter than you instead of you having to troubleshoot and tape shit together yourself.

All that being said, I don't personally like GRUB, but most of the time it's just the simplest choice. It Just Werks™.
 
EFI is niggerware that every board manufacturer manages to break in different manner thus it is better to use condom in the form of GRUB when interacting with it, or preferably use civlized booting method if possible that is BIOS boot
 
I remember years back when I was switching to Linux for the first time it was GRUB that caused me all sorts of heartache and not even Linux itself.

Something about it was broken, the machine would boot, then GRUB would scream and shit itself and present me with some sort of shell. At the time I had no other electronic devices to look up what the hell happened, so it was very annoying to work out what to do. I eventually just randomly tried “exit” which closed the shell, and correctly booted my distro. I still have no clue what was broken about the setup but it hasn’t happened since.
 
At what point does a piece of shit software that hardly works become a different piece of software if you keep applying patches to it? One or two patches to make something work with a particular setup isn't a big deal, but when you have around 20 or more for just one piece of software, you're really not proving it works. If I take the worst software (that we can all agree on is the worst) and patch it to make it good, does that mean it is good software now?

GRUB is a shitstain on Linux and is the cause of many problems. I don't know a single well-educated user who has anything good to say about GRUB. For those of you where it "just works" on, it just works because other people have taken the time and effort to make it work because GRUB itself is a broken mess and you would know that if you tried to fiddle with it beyond simple boot options. This is just a fact. GRUB does not work, your distro made it work. Atleast when I compile my kernel manually without any specific patches, it just works most of the time.
 
Subtle Foreshadowing said:
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who is ts tranny and why is xe talking about xer ass, especially in regards to guix.

The grub package in guix is split between many different variations, most (if not all) inheriting from a single master package definition. This definition has the aforementioned 2 patches.

This first one just changes a random part of the code to be fixed for Guix's dedication to reproducible builds. This is a change to make GRUB work with Guix's goals and is just a form of porting.
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The second one exists to just to pacify a compiler warning and to permit grub-bios-setup to run on disc images without root permission.
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Basically, these two patches are entirely small and do nothing to substantially change grub, especially not in regards to the user experience in 99.9% of cases.

The 17 other patches that are alleged are likely minor code edits that are common for Guix to include to ensure the software functions in its weird ass environment non-POSIX compliant environment. For example, grub-efi has some of these edits. The ones in substitute change a line for another, and the first has to do with editing tests (not main program source code!) seemingly to make them work on guix. The rest are for pointing program filepaths to the right places (as guix is weird and stores all binaries in a massive directory called /gnu) so that the program functions.

Most of the other edits i've seen also are along these lines, just making minor changes to GRUB to make it work on guix.

Frankly, even if you think GRUB is utter dogshit, talking about it in the form of patches like this has to be one of the most pathetic excuses for an argument I've seen. GRUB is very low-level software that, of course, is going to get patched to work within the confines of whatever the distro maintainer wants to do. Instead of tackling the code quality, functionality, or something genuinely tangible, the complaint is that "oh it gets patched often that means its bad".




also, the girl in your profile picture was hand-sculpted for BBC
 
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