Avatar: The Last Airbender / The Legend of Korra

[wtfNeedSignUp]

First things first, the Avatar would suck all the attention. EVERY viewer would be more interested in them. Secondly, neutrality is boring. Unless the Avatar has his own goals that force them to interact, everyone would ask about him. Not to mention that it is the Avatar's duty to fight villains. Can't have them skip that. And lastly, an evil Avatar would be in conflict with the rest of the lives inside him. Possible to happen but any side that has a fully-realized Avatar has won already. A demigod with a team of geniuses is hard to beat as the villains find out. A demigod with an army is impossible to beat. Writing a story like that is one hell of a balancing act even for great writers.

Theoretically it is possible to write such stories but you probably can get better results with easier concepts.

The Avatar being the center of attention doesn't mean he has to be the main character. He can be a Yoda/Darth Vade character that is powerful but under his own rules

Also the Avatar's task is to keep balance between the nations, and to prevent the spirit world from invading the human world. Fighting villains is his own choice.

And even in the original show there was a plot point of Aang disagreeing with his previous reincarnations. Like with Aang being a pacifist, a new incarnation can be about the end justifies the means.

 

[Incecticyder]

The Avatar being the center of attention doesn't mean he has to be the main character. He can be a Yoda/Darth Vade character that is powerful but under his own rules

Those stories always have the same kind of fan discussion: "Why isn't that guy the protagonist?" When you give someone the protagonist role when there is someone else is the better choice, it makes for a very hard story. I remember a manga that tried to subvert expectations in such a way and it was canceled. The formula has to be understood inside and out before it is subverted. Merely reversing the role of the protagonist and the antagonist/rival/supporting character isn't enough. A whole lot of extra work needs to be done.

Also the Avatar's task is to keep balance between the nations, and to prevent the spirit world from invading the human world. Fighting villains is his own choice.

In the Avatar world, those are one and the same after a while. Every villain has tried to destroy the balance once their plans reached their final point.

And even in the original show there was a plot point of Aang disagreeing with his previous reincarnations. Like with Aang being a pacifist, a new incarnation can be about the end justifies the means.

There is a huge different in disagreeing with the methods and disagreeing with the end goals. If the Avatar is to be a proper villain, it has to be the latter.

 

[Duine In Cudromach]

or have them be temporarily nerfed

You clan get away with this if this is actually integral to a story's confict, which is different than just making the characters weak and stupid (which is the common way characterse are nerfed in these kind of movies).

Also, you could get around a lot of the issues of nerfing the Avatar by just having to deal with the Spirit World, where bending and the Avatar State simply aren't accessible and the conflict is then figuring out how to outmaneuver the villain. You won't get the bending fights while you'r ein there but you can still get the cool visuals.

First things first, the Avatar would suck all the attention. EVERY viewer would be more interested in them.

I disagree. While the Avatar is going to be a localized power they aren't necessarily the most intersting person on the team. Back in ATLA people were way more interested in what was going on with Zuko than with Aang.

Actually puts me to mind that it might be a cool miniseries to focus on a group of people who are trying to find the newly-incarnated Avatar and investigating weird bending phenomena in hopes of finding them.

Making the Avatar the villain

This is dicey just because of the Avatar's function as a force of balancein the world, but you absolutely CAN turn 'force of balance' into something that goes too far into 'maintianing peace'. One of the things that very briefly intrigued me in the movie was when Tagah said that he was basically part of an Air Nomad army who was 'enforcing peace' among the other nations and it absolutely sounded like a euphemism for an Air nation that was bent on conquering the world in the name of forcing unity and peae on the populace, which puts the Avatar in a good state to be doing the right thing in entirely the wrong way. THAT could have been Sonom's story (and would've been a really cool reason for her to have been forgotten by the cycle).

I also kind of want a true Dark Avatar. Not like what Unalaq was going for (just being, you know... evil) but one that actually interrogates Raava's edict of 'balance' against Vaatu's 'chaos' not as good versus evil or light versus dark, but stagnation versus change. The Avatar enforces a world balance that we see has been largely static for thousnads of years. That's not inherently good. Neither is change for the sake of change but you can have a real philosophical breach instead of just 'you are possessed by the Good Kite so you have to fight the Evil Kite'.

 

[Incecticyder]

I disagree. While the Avatar is going to be a localized power they aren't necessarily the most intersting person on the team. Back in ATLA people were way more interested in what was going on with Zuko than with Aang.

Actually puts me to mind that it might be a cool miniseries to focus on a group of people who are trying to find the newly-incarnated Avatar and investigating weird bending phenomena in hopes of finding them.

Doesn't matter. Zuko's story still revolved around Aang. The Avatar and his relationship with him was integral to his character. Even when the Avatar isn't the best character, the best character is still revolving around him.

Also, a miniseries about people that look for the Avatar might not have him as the protagonist but it does have him as the endgoal. You are again proving how much stories set in this world need the Avatar.

 

[wtfNeedSignUp]

Those stories always have the same kind of fan discussion: "Why isn't that guy the protagonist?" When you give someone the protagonist role when there is someone else is the better choice, it makes for a very hard story. I remember a manga that tried to subvert expectations in such a way and it was canceled. The formula has to be understood inside and out before it is subverted. Merely reversing the role of the protagonist and the antagonist/rival/supporting character isn't enough. A whole lot of extra work needs to be done.


In the Avatar world, those are one and the same after a while. Every villain has tried to destroy the balance once their plans reached their final point.


There is a huge different in disagreeing with the methods and disagreeing with the end goals. If the Avatar is to be a proper villain, it has to be the latter.

I'll give a simple example, the different nations leaders united in an agreement to forcibly recruit all benders into a singular peace force, under the supervision of the Avatar. While the organisation is militant and has some corruption, it's not evil. And the Avatar supports it since after lifetimes of endless conflict, it's the best long term solution.

And the main characters are deserters that would rather not be enslaved to the system, but go back to their family/palace/freedom. Maybe have them search for the Avatar in the first season to say to him how bad things are only for him to go "it's nice to know, but you should get back to your unit or I'll throw you in jail".

It doesn't have a straight up villain, but most people will sympathize with the characters while understand the Avatar's position from the previous installments.

 

[Duine In Cudromach]

Also, a miniseries about people that look for the Avatar might not have him as the protagonist but it does have him as the endgoal. You are again proving how much stories set in this world need the Avatar.

I... don't think this was even the argument? It certainly wasn't mine. You were saying that the Avatar would suck all the attention of the room and that they would naturally be the protagonist. There are configurations where the Avatar is not the protagonist, even if the story revolves around their presence and actions. The Avatar's sheer gravitational pull is going to change the world around him but that doesn't mean he's by default the most interesting character in the room.

 

[Prophetic Spirit]

Are we forgetting the deutagonists and tritagonists?

Aang is obviously the one, but Zuko is the deutagonist by default after S1, which is the antagonist.
I'm pretty sure Katara is the tritagonist.

 

[Incecticyder]

I'll give a simple example, the different nations leaders united in an agreement to forcibly recruit all benders into a singular peace force, under the supervision of the Avatar. While the organisation is militant and has some corruption, it's not evil. And the Avatar supports it since after lifetimes of endless conflict, it's the best long term solution.

And the main characters are deserters that would rather not be enslaved to the system, but go back to their family/palace/freedom. Maybe have them search for the Avatar in the first season to say to him how bad things are only for him to go "it's nice to know, but you should get back to your unit or I'll throw you in jail".

It doesn't have a straight up villain, but most people will sympathize with the characters while understand the Avatar's position from the previous installments.

Not saying it is impossible. It has happened. However, while you can have a story with a villainous Avatar, you cannot have the Avatar not be the protagonist. He will have to be a Villain Protagonist. Think Light Yagami. He is the villain but he is also the protagonist. You can't have the Avatar be an antagonist though.

I... don't think this was even the argument? It certainly wasn't mine. You were saying that the Avatar would suck all the attention of the room and that they would naturally be the protagonist. There are configurations where the Avatar is not the protagonist, even if the story revolves around their presence and actions. The Avatar's sheer gravitational pull is going to change the world around him but that doesn't mean he's by default the most interesting character in the room.

That doesn't mean much. Yes, Aang isn't the most interesting character but he is the one that causes other characters to be interesting by being the most important. The role of the protagonist is Aang's for his sheer importance, not how interesting he is. The Avatar is always the most important.

 

[Duine In Cudromach]

Not saying it is impossible. It has happened. However, while you can have a story with a villainous Avatar, you cannot have the Avatar not be the protagonist. He will have to be a Villain Protagonist. Think Light Yagami. He is the villain but he is also the protagonist. You can't have the Avatar be an antagonist though.

I'm not sure you understand what a protagonist is.

A protagonist is the lead character. The main perspective the narrative follows. (Or, as Prophetic Spirit implied, deuteragonists when you have two primary character, or tritagonists for three, and an ensemble cast when you have a larger group who all get spotlighted...) Multiple people have already explained how you could have a story that takes place in the Avatar world that doesn't focus on the Avatar. The Avatar's rpesence or actions might be motivating them, but if you aren't actually telling the brunt of the story FROM the Avatar's perspective, the Avatar isn't the protagonist.

Like, you even said the Avatar can be the villain but MUST be the protagonist? Why? That would require us to focus our main perspective on the Avatar when it makes more sense to tell the story from the perspective of the people opposing Villain!Avatar. That would make them the protagonists.

 

[Incecticyder]

I'm not sure you understand what a protagonist is.

A protagonist is the lead character. The main perspective the narrative follows. (Or, as Prophetic Spirit implied, deuteragonists when you have two primary character, or tritagonists for three, and an ensemble cast when you have a larger group who all get spotlighted...) Multiple people have already explained how you could have a story that takes place in the Avatar world that doesn't focus on the Avatar. The Avatar's rpesence or actions might be motivating them, but if you aren't actually telling the brunt of the story FROM the Avatar's perspective, the Avatar isn't the protagonist.

Like, you even said the Avatar can be the villain but MUST be the protagonist? Why? That would require us to focus our main perspective on the Avatar when it makes more sense to tell the story from the perspective of the people opposing Villain!Avatar. That would make them the protagonists.

But here is the problem: The Avatar world NEEDS the Avatar. It is a word made by and for him. Could a story work with an Antagonist Avatar? Not without MAJOR changes into what this world is. A lot can be done in storytelling. However, when you want to break the mold, you have to do way more legwork. As things are, there is nothing that can truly challenge the Avatar. Fighting against him is a fool's errant. If you want to make a story about people who were defeated by him, that is one thing. But you have to put real effort into make it make sense without nerfing him.

Again, I am not saying it can't happen but rather that the effort that you put in will not have the same appeal unless you really know what you are doing. And even then it might not be worth the effort as a more traditional story could wield better results. Doing things differently does not always pay off. Do you know what would need to be done to defeat that Avatar? If not, we might have a Madara situation once more.

As for protagonists and deuteragonists, the difference is their level of importance. There can a protagonist and a deuteragonist. The deuteragonist is either a rival or main supporter to the protagonist. They are above the rest of the supporting cast but bellow the protagonist. Goes double for the tritagonists.

 

[Neet Tokusatsu]

That's what i've been saying for a while.

 

[wtfNeedSignUp]

It's kinda funny that despite how libshit Korra was, the only political opinion it supported was Monarchism:
> Maybe we should not let Benders have extra power? - Actually everyone suggesting it is a thug or a dictator in disguise.
> Maybe we should reconnect with out spiritual side more? - Actually they want to summon Satan
> Maybe we should kill royalty that routinely discriminates and execute people? - Actually they are bad because violence.
> Maybe we should allow strong competent leaders to replace the old power structures? - No because fascism.

 

[Incecticyder]

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That's what i've been saying for a while.

We were all saying it. In fact, every show an ATLA alumni made was worse than the one that came before it. The Dragon Prince was worse than Voltron which was worse than TLOK which was worse than ATLA. Copy of a copy of a copy of a copy.

> Maybe we should not let Benders have extra power? - Actually everyone suggesting it is a thug or a dictator in disguise.

Ignoring how that conflict doesn't even make sense in the Avatar world.

> Maybe we should reconnect with out spiritual side more? - Actually they want to summon Satan

What it needed was a side that was pro-spirits but anti-Unalaq to counterbalance things.

> Maybe we should kill royalty that routinely discriminates and execute people? - Actually they are bad because violence.

That wasn't the problem with the Red Lotus. They were a bunch of anarchists that wanted to kill every ruler and bring chaos as they thought that was the natural state of things.

> Maybe we should allow strong competent leaders to replace the old power structures? - No because fascism.

Everyone is Hitler. They can't seem to get inspiration from any other tyrant.

 

[The Incredible Gassy]

Out of all the villains in TLoK I think Amon had the most potential. A guy that went off the deep end because a bender killed his family and left him permanently scarred could have been really compelling. You could make him a self loathing wreck that sees himself as a monster and by extension all benders need to be dealt with. If you want to keep the blood-bending in you could write around it by making him so unhinged he actually thinks he's using enery bending. Or a more malevolent spirit that is still bitter about the war could ally with him and give him that power.

 

[DeadwastePrime]

Out of all the villains in TLoK I think Amon had the most potential. A guy that went off the deep end because a bender killed his family and left him permanently scarred could have been really compelling. You could make him a self loathing wreck that sees himself as a monster and by extension all benders need to be dealt with. If you want to keep the blood-bending in you could write around it by making him so unhinged he actually thinks he's using enery bending. Or a more malevolent spirit that is still bitter about the war could ally with him and give him that power.

i mean yeah but thats if they had known the series would be more than 12 episodes long. gotta remember this was pitched as a miniseries initially before getting another season

 

[who dare wins?]

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That's what i've been saying for a while.

I’ve been seeing a fair amount of sperging defending LoK and total revisionism, tumblr has won the culture war in this regard and just keeps endlessly reversing criticisms via “media literacy” and other retarded excuses when this is it. Nick should’ve instituted creative controls and not commissioned the show for 4 seasons and LoK probably wouldn’t be ass.

 

[Mystery Spy]

tumblr has won the culture war in this regard and just keeps endlessly reversing criticisms via “media literacy” and other retarded excuses when this is i

True. But it's a meaningless victory.

It doesn't matter how much they scream "media literacy" — people won't like Korra just because they moan and write essays. I won't get tired of saying this: what they are really defending is just the lesbian ship. All the changes they made are indefensible, and the few "good things" are just not worth the terrible ones.

If Korra had been a success, she would have gotten her own live-action show, more seasons, and the leaked movie would've been about her. Instead, they already planned to replace her with the next Avatar. They even found an excuse to undo the nonsensical technology jump to the industrial age to keep the fantasy vibe in that show. Even Bryke are undoing a major part of it.

With all honesty how much people would be defending Korra herself if she wasn't a lesbian? People forget how unlikeable she really was.

 

[Prophetic Spirit]

True. But it's a meaningless victory.

It doesn't matter how much they scream "media literacy" — people won't like Korra just because they moan and write essays. I won't get tired of saying this: what they are really defending is just the lesbian ship. All the changes they made are indefensible, and the few "good things" are just not worth the terrible ones.

If Korra had been a success, she would have gotten her own live-action show, more seasons, and the leaked movie would've been about her. Instead, they already planned to replace her with the next Avatar. They even found an excuse to undo the nonsensical technology jump to the industrial age to keep the fantasy vibe in that show. Even Bryke are undoing a major part of it.

With all honesty how much people would be defending Korra herself if she wasn't a lesbian? People forget how unlikeable she really was.

View attachment 8954900

Cheesy line, but a senseless type of pride which backfires horribly after.

---

Reminds me of how i created a entire different main character based on Korra but taking all her flaws, putting actually consistent flaws and be basically the other side of the coin in a sequel of my planned trilogy of novels.

Spoiler: Gay context

My crush-in for teenage years made me being so soft with tomboish-arquetypes: she's never does something girly in the series iirc. Not even using an dress.
This "new" character is near over-protecting his platonic crush for a long time before a attempt of rape on the actual protagonist made her near-killing the perpetrator. At that point.
Less self-righteous, less selfish, more lovable and more caring of those she loves.

I think Bryke created a good base, but executed horribly. Like 95% of TLOK.
Only tumblrinas and retards defend Korra.

 

[Kharash]

what they are really defending is just the lesbian ship.

It's funny because it's so cowardly and half assed. They don't hint at shit the entire show even in just the last season, then have them hold hands for a second at the very end.
If anything you'd think those people would find that insulting and the lowest form of pandering.

 

[Incecticyder]

Out of all the villains in TLoK I think Amon had the most potential. A guy that went off the deep end because a bender killed his family and left him permanently scarred could have been really compelling. You could make him a self loathing wreck that sees himself as a monster and by extension all benders need to be dealt with. If you want to keep the blood-bending in you could write around it by making him so unhinged he actually thinks he's using enery bending. Or a more malevolent spirit that is still bitter about the war could ally with him and give him that power.

Amon came from the writers' own confusion. They confused their world with the real one. The conflict makes no sense if you think about it.

True. But it's a meaningless victory.

It doesn't matter how much they scream "media literacy" — people won't like Korra just because they moan and write essays. I won't get tired of saying this: what they are really defending is just the lesbian ship. All the changes they made are indefensible, and the few "good things" are just not worth the terrible ones.

If Korra had been a success, she would have gotten her own live-action show, more seasons, and the leaked movie would've been about her. Instead, they already planned to replace her with the next Avatar. They even found an excuse to undo the nonsensical technology jump to the industrial age to keep the fantasy vibe in that show. Even Bryke are undoing a major part of it.

With all honesty how much people would be defending Korra herself if she wasn't a lesbian? People forget how unlikeable she really was.

View attachment 8954900

Imo, Korra being a bad protagonist hurts otherwise decent show. She has constant events that should cause her to learn but she doesn't. The writers settled on making her an idiot and it stuck even after she should have matured.

She is her own story's worst character.

I think Bryke created a good base, but executed horribly. Like 95% of TLOK.
Only tumblrinas and retards defend Korra.

This.

It's funny because it's so cowardly and half assed. They don't hint at shit the entire show even in just the last season, then have them hold hands for a second at the very end.
If anything you'd think those people would find that insulting and the lowest form of pandering.

Exactly. Being lesbians was never the problem. The problem is the same as the rest of the show. They couldn't plan well ANYTHING! I assume they used to have better story planners. Someone should have been there to tell them "You don't want Korra to end up with Mako? Fine but decide who she should end up with in order to spend the rest of the show developing that relationship NOW!" but that guy was absent.