Is a Post-Scarcity Society Possible? - aka Star Trek World

[Dooly Tilly]

Confirmed for fat.

I never joke. Ever.

It looks like my potent truths have destroyed you.
It also sounds like you're a typical American sociopath, hyper national war monger.

I know I'm right.

TZM proposes a new economic system that not only supports the productive, but also ensures everyone has what they need and most of what they want, of course if we both "have" and everything is free, there's no need for theft.

Given there's no money, we open our borders on resources and allow all countries to be friendly, ie, no more war.

In many instances technology exists but both individuals and governments can"t afford it, but with no money, no problemo.

 

[Bassomatic]

I gave vertical farming as an example of how we could have post scarcity for food, as for water, we can use desalination, however, if people are living in the wrong part of the planet, the logical solution would be to move to parts more productive.

I never suggested something relating to future population, only that we're beyond scarcity for food and quite frankly everything else given 7-10 billion.

The Venus project has blueprints for off the grid ecological cities on land and sea, TZM explains how we can accomodate these populations using ecologically friendly peak science/engineering.

You can certainly ask me more, but given this system is the only one that can provide mankind with everything it needs and most of what it wants, it might be a good idea to peruse the PDF.

So you're entire claim is, if if if if if. That's not really helpful. If I was immortal. Now, where will these people in the wrong parts move to? There are two problems, room and cost. 70+% of earth is water, and we really haven't made living on the ocean full time possible yet, and of the amount of land we have, a shit ton sucks to live on. So what do we do when we already don't have room? It ain't utopia or post scarcity, if we are all locked into apartments the size of a prison cell.

That's fair you didn't include population increase, but history and economics prove when there is a boom amount of food, population increases, so really it's something you should and have to factor in. Also, we currently have people starving to death. So you saying you have a plan to make 70 billion eat when we can't/won't/don't feed 7... is quite the claim.

I'll take a peek at this when I get a free min, but let me again, restate what I mentioned earlier, it's fine to cite things but again you say, here read this and you get it when in debate you have to both put your own spin on and honestly represent a pov.

TZM proposes a new economic system that not only supports the productive, but also ensures everyone has what they need and most of what they want, of course if we both "have" and everything is free, there's no need for theft.

Given there's no money, we open our borders on resources and allow all countries to be friendly, ie, no more war.

In many instances technology exists but both individuals and governments can"t afford it, but with no money, no problemo.

Does this cover opting out? What if, say bill gates wants out, there will always be humans drive. Let me list something that's commonly mentioned on the website, incels. They feel they are owed a partner, as much as some feel they are owed food and water. To do that would require slavery. Something in the developed and Western World that's both detested and outlawed.

What if someone's dream is a plot of land to farm by hand? Sure they may be able to Star Trek up a lunch but they aren't fulfilled as a human.

What's our drive to do this if not profit? Even if to do for the good of it, should these people not be rewarded? It's going to be a lot easier for a Rocket Scientist to sell books, than a book sales person to build rocket ships. How are we going to make up for "greed" with out the force of a gun?

If you include well we just gulag people who don't play along you just pretty much are saying USSR 2.0 and don't expect a year of 4 pests result

You say these things we can't afford. What are they, and lets pretend you remove cash/money/currency from the reason we can't afford, there's also limitations of materials and power. Interesting fact, My dad was into engineering in college GM was a big company, the biggest name in the game. As a wet behind the ears engineer making things better with out thinking about the rest of the supply chain was still on his head.

So he thought, hey GM makes the most motors in the world at the time, why are they using iron? alum blocks are better. The reason he was told? There is not enough alum in the world. Tech has changed a lot since then and now a lot of GM uses alum as it's easier to make it's still a finite amount. It wasn't money.

I'm trying to be respectful here, but so far you've said "money is bullshit and if we had magic powers we'd all be rich" I'm really trying to give you a leg to stand on and hear your thoughts but it's getting less persuasive the more you post and coming off as some pseudo technobabble commie crap. Lots of the USSR commies thought things would be perfect because tractors.

 

[Dooly Tilly]

Bass.
I'm a technological anarchist, TZM is also anarchy.
I'm simply pointing out that if we run into trouble thanks to the problems with the monetary system, the environment and automation, we have a way out.

Remember that this is a new mode of thinking relative to the state of the current system, ie, as the system worsens, it'll be silly for billionaires to speak about their wants whilst we all suffer needlessly.

 

[Bassomatic]

Bass.
I'm a technological anarchist, TZM is also anarchy.
I'm simply pointing out that if we run into trouble thanks to the problems with the monetary system, the environment and automation, we have a way out.

Remember that this is a new mode of thinking relative to the state of the current system, ie, as the system worsens, it'll be silly for billionaires to speak about their wants whilst we all suffer needlessly.

Ok, that's quite alright you have your hopes/beliefs. I tend to not shit on anyone here unless they poke a bear and you've been nothing but respectful in debate so I'm happy to talk with you on it.

As you know, we do not live in an anarchist society. So, let's say we manage to make some tech that is post scarcity, like a corn crop that doesn't need water and matures in 2 days for example. How do we prevent it from being monopolized, banned, controlled? Or are you suggesting, we need that society before our breakthroughs come out? Then again, the problem seems to lie, if we have no force of money we still have other things that are scarce and people's loyalties.

I will say, I dig and respect you say your thoughts are for a more advanced time/society. Let's be real here, it can be a cop out, but history also backs this. Humans always wanted to fly, and until past 100 years it was laughable to say we will.

Many of the richest of the rich in free society, have donated most if not all their wealth and there still is a ton of suffering. If I came up with free power for the world I'd be happy to know I did something good, but I sure as fuck want my ferrari for it. I don't know if you are trying to imply that people whom are wealthy are greedy or a restraint on growth of humanity.

Really another thing with this is what do we consider scare now, might not be. Hell Caesar himself never could get ice cubes like you or i do. Not only that our drinking water is safe as hell in the developed world. You or I don't have anywhere the riches of him. We are going back to social issues though, if you and I both get what we want and enough for dinner, the human will strive for more. Sure we both got a nice steak, but god damnit I only had a ribeye, I wanted porterhouse. I don't see how we can remove this factor from humanity.

 

[Dooly Tilly]

I'm saying that within a 5yr period we could convert all western economies to full automation, and once that happens we no longer need to work or have money as the robots build it for free.

However, that's the engineering side of the equation, we must first gain widespread support for the truth that automation is ready once peak science/engineering is applied.

ATM, industry builds based on inherent obsolesence and planned obsolescence, plus they also build to a budget.... These are strangleholds on progress.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AOfGEiaG5Ws

 

[Bassomatic]

I'm saying that within a 5yr period we could convert all western economies to full automation, and once that happens we no longer need to work or have money as the robots build it for free.

However, that's the engineering side of the equation, we must first gain widespread support for the truth that automation is ready once peak science/engineering is applied.

ATM, industry builds based on inherent obsolesence and planned obsolescence, plus they also build to a budget.... These are strangleholds on progress.

Ok, I'm saying this nicely, but prove it. I don't at all buy this on a dozen reasons.

Also, people will be needed for the robots and it's industry. People swore the cotton gin was going to end the work force.

The sheer concept of peak in regards to science or engineering is a joke, iron is a great metal, isn't it? We still use it. I think we are a wee bit more advanced than the iron age. We have robotics doing many tasks and we still chose hand labor for the best and more complex works. Humans want to grow and be better so we keep growing. Unless you think as a technocrat yourself, the fact we are using the internet now is stupid, you'd have to agree tech advances and grows non stop. It's in us humans.

Not all things factor planned, obsolescence, and budgets are a real issue, you can't fault them as things are finite. Now I'll jump on your side and say, we waste a ton making shit, on avg, per consumer reports 1/3 a new car you buy is ad cost. That sucks. Now regulation is another thing, lets say you buy a car that also has an optional convertible top, how much of your dollar buying your car is spent, on that option that doesn't apply? I don't want an air bag, but laws say I gotta have one, so how much of the budget is spend on that? These pass on to consumer. So let's pretend BMW says we are going to give a blank check for the new car, how much will it cost? After that how damn much will you or I have to pay? It'll be unfathomable.

I don't disagree with you, that robotics will change the work force, but as always it just shifts us, it doesn't replace us. If anything, look at the blessings we have now, today the poor who are replaced by robots will get a bail out, serfs and freed slaves? They were left to rot if not rounded up and sent out on a war for the lulz and get rid of the underclass.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AOfGEiaG5Ws

Jesus Christ Nigger... apparently I have been trolled.

 

[Dooly Tilly]

Bass.
It's time for you to make the effort to dl the free PDF called the Zeitgeist movement defined.
As I said before this is both a psychological and physical replacement for our now antiquated economics and mentality

Ahhh you gotta love the children playing with their buttons and downvotting my fucken formidable TRUTHS.

Are there any genuinely intelligent people at this forum?... Capable of proper critical thinking...

 

[Male Idiot]

No, this is not possible.

First, because of science. Neither matter nor energy is unlimited in our current understanding.
Second, human nature. Humans are just not motivated to be this sharing, it goes against human nature. Greed is the inherent motivator bred into us so that we hoarded that sweet, sweet mammoth bacon and got through the winter.

Now, a post basic needs like civilisation would be somewhat possible, as in a simple society where all basic needs are met. This means housing, electricity, food and such as free gibsmuh.

However such a society would need a motivation for people to work or it would fall apart. This could either be a cultural, deeply ingrained psychic motive like Federation's goody goodness or the Mechanicus's "We must know more!" motive, or a collective sort of nationalism and heavy, heavy birth control.

It is not impossible but very impropable.

 

[Bassomatic]

Bass.
It's time for you to make the effort to dl the free PDF called the Zeitgeist movement defined.
As I said before this is both a psychological and physical replacement for our now antiquated economics and mentality

I said I'd look at it when I have some time to kill, and remember when I mentioned it's great to cite but debate is your pov, not someone else's so you really should be doing the leg work on this not me.

Also, yea dude our economic model is so dumb, that's why we have the internet that we are typing on, hell did you know my power comes from atoms? Yup nuclear power here. Clearly we aren't much above banging rocks together.

Ahhh you gotta love the children playing with their buttons and downvotting my fucken formidable TRUTHS.

Pro tip: don't get mad at down votes, people now know a place to poke on you. Also, this brings nothing to the debate, and you are being openly hostile. Pretty much, signing out of the debate.

Are there any genuinely intelligent people at this forum?... Capable of proper critical thinking...

Yes, but since you have sunk to saying do my work for me on a debate, insulting and just saying "ur wrong" it's pretty clear you choose not to be.

 

[Dooly Tilly]

Bass.
You're just another lazy facebook generation type, although you could prove me wrong by informing yourself instead of expecting me constantly correct your errors.

No, this is not possible.

First, because of science. Neither matter nor energy is unlimited in our current understanding.
Second, human nature. Humans are just not motivated to be this sharing, it goes against human nature. Greed is the inherent motivator bred into us so that we hoarded that sweet, sweet mammoth bacon and got through the winter.

Now, a post basic needs like civilisation would be somewhat possible, as in a simple society where all basic needs are met. This means housing, electricity, food and such as free gibsmuh.

However such a society would need a motivation for people to work or it would fall apart. This could either be a cultural, deeply ingrained psychic motive like Federation's goody goodness or the Mechanicus's "We must know more!" motive, or a collective sort of nationalism and heavy, heavy birth control.

It is not impossible but very impropable.

As for science, please leave it alone or improve your understanding cause ATM, we have the technology to easily power the entire global economy.

Also, you're making all sorts of assumptions regarding human nature, however, our nature's are malleable as proven by history and secured by logic and common sense.

Hahahaha the facebook generation of lazy know nothing's make utter fools of themselves by downvotting my truths and reasonable advice/request.

Why start this topic if you're too lazy or stupid to learn?

 

[Bassomatic]

Bass.
You're just another lazy facebook generation type, although you could prove me wrong by informing yourself instead of expecting me constantly correct your errors.

You are on the attack because you don't have a point to stand on, you've pushed the work on to me and not pointed out a single error I've made.

This is a neat topic and I hope it's kept open but you should seriously poke away from this as you have sunk from bringing poor debate to just being disrespectful. It's not helping anyone.

As for science, please leave it alone or improve your understanding cause ATM, we have the technology to easily power the entire global economy.

Also, you're making all sorts of assumptions regarding human nature, however, our nature's are malleable as proven by history and secured by logic and common sense.

Prove it. No seriously, you keep making claims and not backing them up. I can show you very clearly people whom do not have power, and people whom choose not to have power. You say we can power the world, so where are these dozens of plasma reactors I don't know about?

People are able to grow and change, but history also shows us some things stay the same, many people desire to acquire more, be off the grid, etc. Also history keeps showing us, there's more stuff we want than stuff we can have.

Edit: Triple posting is really poor form chill.

 

[GS 281]

The sped was threadbanned.

Please don't argue with obvious speds it derails threads.