Community Detox / Alternative medicine / Homeopathy / Woo / CAM Scammers & Cows - The crazies who make $ off hating science, and the fools who love them

[Dysnomia]

So about the 42 weeks or more pregnancy loons-most home birth midwives are okay with it. In fact one of them had a 42 week patient with no amniotic fluid on a scan and the dumbass midwife asked other midwives on facebook what to do. One of them said stevia, lol, most said don't do anything. Unsurprisingly the kid died. Most of the home birth midwives in the USA aren't qualified to be nurses or nurses aids. The midwife isn't in jail and can't really be sued because of not carrying insurance. This trend started with Ina May Gaskin, a hippy that believes in jerking women off during labor to progress contractions. She deleted that nugget of wisdom from her later books but she did it to other gross hippies giving birth on their religious free love commune in the 60s.

If she was that overdue and had no amniotic fluid left she should have went to a hospital. Stevia isn't going to save your baby.

It looks like a lot of home birth people are crazy hippies. This isn't the dark ages. Go to a hospital. It's not worth dying and losing your child.

Is "woo" regional? Because I only heard it last year and thought maybe it's something they say down south or out west or one of those places I don't live in.

 

[multiverse]

Is "woo" regional? Because I only heard it last year and thought maybe it's something they say down south or out west or one of those places I don't live in.

Nah, just more a derisive phrase from the 90s.

 

[anondotcom]

It looks like a lot of home birth people are crazy hippies. This isn't the dark ages. Go to a hospital. It's not worth dying and losing your child.

Crazy hippies who looked up a handful of birth statistics and wigged themselves out, like anti-vaxxers. The US does have an unusually high infant and mother mortality rate for a developed country, as well as an unusually high rate of unnecessary medical intervention (c-sections and episiotomies mostly). (Don't look up episiotomies if you're easily squicked, by the way. Gross stuff.)

So, naturally, "woo" people latch onto this and decide to ignore literally all of human history's data showing why it's a bad idea and do (mostly or completely) unassisted home birth. Some justifications I've heard is "female bodies are built to do this" and "we've done it for millions of years without doctors," completely ignoring that it was incredibly common for women and infants to die in childbirth. Still is in a lot of underdeveloped countries.

Mostly the wackadoodles that make me uncomfortable are the crystal healing people. I've seen far too many dildos made out of not-body-safe-materials to trust anyone who insists that sticking rose quartz up your vag will cure your depression. Seems like a good way to catch a preventable disease.

 

[MrHoneyBadger]

This is so weird. We have aссess to every bit of knowledge that humanity made and still we have people that believe in healing powers of bear piss or quartz stones.
I can understand this shit in counties that doesn't have good access to internet, like central african counties, but America and Europe... This is o beyond my understanding.

 

[Bani]

In recent years, the hip thing for altmed people to sperg about has been "adrenal fatigue". The adrenals are these little things on top of the kidneys that release certain chemical compounds, like adrenaline and cortisol, into the blood.

Adrenal fatique is a condition quacks describe as pretty much having all the same symptoms as depression. They say it happens because you eat too much processed food and don't buy enough snake oil. It is not an officially acknowledged medical condition, obviously. I make note of this "condition" because FitVeganGinger likes to say she has/had it, and frequently mentions "adrenals".

Who needs a therapist and a Zoloft perscription when you have incense and essential oils!

 

[neverendingmidi]

Crazy hippies who looked up a handful of birth statistics and wigged themselves out, like anti-vaxxers. The US does have an unusually high infant and mother mortality rate for a developed country, as well as an unusually high rate of unnecessary medical intervention (c-sections and episiotomies mostly). (Don't look up episiotomies if you're easily squicked, by the way. Gross stuff.)

.

C-sections are high thanks to shyster lawyers claiming downs syndrome happened because the doctor didn’t perform a c-section fast enough (see John Edwards), or women wanting to schedule their pregnancies down to the moment of birth (somebody I work with had c-sections for both of her births so they didn’t screw up her schedule).

From what I understand, the infant deaths being high is because of how the US defines a “live birth”, which is pretty much any birth where they can get the baby to breathe at least for a while. Whether it’s a preemie, or underweight, or otherwise deformed. It breathes, even with mechanical help- it’s a live birth. So if it dies, despite all medical efforts, it counts against the live birth ratio. Whereas in a number of European countries, the baby has to meet a certain length and weight catagory to count as a live birth. Preemies and such aren’t counted until they reach those definitions, so if they die despite the care of doctors, they were never “alive” to be counted anyway.

 

[Hank Scorpio]

Man, I had listened to a lot of Sawbones podcasts about these woo idiots but I didn't realize there were some of these and how absolutely fucking batshit insane they are.

For fuck's sakes we have the Internet, there's no reason people should be so damn stupid about their own health.

Also whoever thought coffee or bleach enemas were a good idea can kindly jump off a cliff.

 

[Donovan the Man]

Antivaxxers drive me insane too, but my personal berserk button is Bloodroot/Black salve (CONTENT WARNING: People are smearing a very damaging substance on their skin to "remove tumors" and are basically burning holes in their flesh, it's horrifying).

I actually think it would be good to link some of Holiday's videos here. He has been debunking woo for a really long time.

The infamous black salve lady was a wild ride. She disfigured herself because she got skin cancer before and wanted to avoid getting a scar, but she showed the scar from previous treatment it was barely noticable. It was literally a small cleft in her nose which a lot of people naturally have. (gore)Now this bitch got a giant hole in her nose.

Sorry for the daily mail link, I don't feel like looking for the thread the pictures came from.

 

[MirnaMinkoff]

C-sections are high thanks to shyster lawyers claiming downs syndrome happened because the doctor didn’t perform a c-section fast enough (see John Edwards), or women wanting to schedule their pregnancies down to the moment of birth (somebody I work with had c-sections for both of her births so they didn’t screw up her schedule).

From what I understand, the infant deaths being high is because of how the US defines a “live birth”, which is pretty much any birth where they can get the baby to breathe at least for a while. Whether it’s a preemie, or underweight, or otherwise deformed. It breathes, even with mechanical help- it’s a live birth. So if it dies, despite all medical efforts, it counts against the live birth ratio. Whereas in a number of European countries, the baby has to meet a certain length and weight catagory to count as a live birth. Preemies and such aren’t counted until they reach those definitions, so if they die despite the care of doctors, they were never “alive” to be counted anyway.

I think you mean cerebral palsy not Down syndrome, Down syndrome is a trisomy (chromosomal disorder) which is detectable in the first weeks of pregnancy. Cerebral palsy can be caused by a number of factors and birth injuries are a big one. Anything that deprives a baby of oxygen for too long during birth can cause it.

The rise in c-sections in the USA in the 1990s happened for a number of reasons, insurance rates/lawsuits were one but also doctors loved being able to “schedule” the births to make it far more convenient for them. Quite a few women also preferred the idea of a c-section to natural birth and demanded c-sections. Tabloids in the UK termed it “too posh to push.”

The upside to some of the birth injury lawsuits was some dangerous medical instruments started to be used far less thanks to them. Forceps were very commonly used in deliveries years ago until the lawsuits spiked thanks to the injuries they were causing - including cerebral palsy - because they were often crushing babies skulls. Now forceps are rarely used and suction devices are the first choice when something is needed to get the baby through the birth canal.

C-section rates have been declining in recent years and better doctors don’t do them unless medically indicated or fetal distress makes it necessary.

I seem to notice doctors who work with lower income patients in the Medicaid programs seem really quick to do c-sections thanks to being able to bill a lot more for them than natural deliveries.

 

[MysticMisty]

women wanting to schedule their pregnancies down to the moment of birth (somebody I work with had c-sections for both of her births so they didn’t screw up her schedule).

At the gynecologist office I go to in every exam room (as far as I can tell) they have list of 40 reasons to go the full 40 weeks. Some of them are pretty stupid (like propping a book up against your giant pregnant belly while your read), but it emphasizes multiple times that babies even slightly premature are on average less healthy than full term ones. That alone should be the reason why scheduling giving birth is a terrible idea.

Also I hate people that plan their babies on special occasions just so they can get free attention and shit. It takes away from the babies that are born on special occasions by luck.

Back on subject though home births are also a terrible idea. So many things can go wrong during labor it might not be just the baby that dies. It should seem logical that it's not worth the risk of maybe being pressured for a genuinely unnecessary procedure. I actually had a teacher in high school however tell my class that if she wound up pregnant she'd go out in the desert by herself and give birth there for some fucking reason.

 

[Titty Figurine]

I actually had a teacher in high school however tell my class that if she wound up pregnant she'd go out in the desert by herself and give birth there for some fucking reason.

Maybe she was closet dingoes ate my baby crazy?

Of everything here so far I'm actually skeeved out the most by the black salve, though. That's some pretty gnarly stuff.

There's a particular flavor of body horror to putting something godawful on or in your person with the intent to fix a problem and having it backfire in such a grotesque way. It's even less savory than when sets like the krokodil images make their rounds. If someone's injecting some shit made out of photo developer in a dirty Russian kitchen it's obvious that longevity isn't exactly a priority but when your FB-addicted auntie thinks a jar of flesh-eating tar might actually cure her cancer... Yikes.

 

[MirnaMinkoff]

At the gynecologist office I go to in every exam room (as far as I can tell) they have list of 40 reasons to go the full 40 weeks. Some of them are pretty stupid (like propping a book up against your giant pregnant belly while your read), but it emphasizes multiple times that babies even slightly premature are on average less healthy than full term ones. That alone should be the reason why scheduling giving birth is a terrible idea.

Also I hate people that plan their babies on special occasions just so they can get free attention and shit. It takes away from the babies that are born on special occasions by luck.

Back on subject though home births are also a terrible idea. So many things can go wrong during labor it might not be just the baby that dies. It should seem logical that it's not worth the risk of maybe being pressured for a genuinely unnecessary procedure. I actually had a teacher in high school however tell my class that if she wound up pregnant she'd go out in the desert by herself and give birth there for some fucking reason.

I don’t think a reputable doctor will schedule a c-section or induction before 39 weeks unless it’s medically necessary.

There’s a risk factor that goes up steeply for stillbirth and many other complications after 40 weeks (which is why some of these crazy bitches refusing induction past 41 weeks is so insane). The ideal sweet spot is between 39 and 40 weeks, you get maximum growth benefit without added risk.

When I spoke to my doctor about induction he was clear that he only schedules them after the 39 week mark.

Home births are crazy to me. Unlike other animals humans have had assisted births going back before recorded history. Birth is dangerous. A hundred years ago the first thing many women did upon learning they were pregnant was write a will, it was just practical given the high maternal death rates. Why people want to return to the era before medically monitored and assisted births is beyond me.

The amount of fetal deaths in that past 40 week FB group speaks for itself.

 

[sperginity]

The facebook group is about going past 42 weeks. That's the upper limit for safety post dates. Gavin Micheal was 42 weeks too. 40 or 41 weeks is not a huge deal, but the danger rises a lot after 42.the facebook group is called ten month mama's, has more than one death so far. The unassisted home birth after cesarean (HBAC) is worse, I think they had 3 or 4 in the course of 6 months?

The healthy home economist says to feed your unvaccinated children raw milk and lie to your pediatrician about it.

 

[anondotcom]

The healthy home economist says to feed your unvaccinated children raw tard cum and lie to your pediatrician about it.

Ah, my other favorite: stupid people who don't understand why pasteurization and GMOs are actually a good thing.

The only part that drives me nuts is yes, woo is a self-leveling problem. Nutjob people doing nutjob things will ultimately die, likely painfully from something preventable and well-studied. But it kills me that these people inflict this upon their children and then are surprised when their kids get horrendously sick, which often results in permanent disability and/or death. Alternatively, they're even more surprised when the kid grows up, learns real science, and then never speaks to their parents again.

I knew a guy who tried to convince me that untreated water was safe to drink and that no plant would ever harm you if ingested, then called me ignorant for laughing at his face.

 

[Donovan the Man]

I can see a lot of reasons why women go full on alternative to hospital births, doesn't mean I understand why you would risk your baby's and your's life.

Child birth is the most vulnerable time a woman can be in and sadly a lot women go through birth trauma not by birth complications but from medical professionals. This can range from doctors not introducing themselves before shoving their hands into you, ignoring you when you say the epidural didn't work, being held down, unwanted episiotomy (episiotomies heal slower and are more painful than natural mild tears and not all women are at risk for tears), condescending attitudes, and the infamous "husband stitch" that can lead to years of discomfort and pain during intercourse. There are other things that have been done to women and new mothers may hear birth trauma stories from family members and or have experienced it themselves with their first birth and decide to go alt.

Not all OBs and nurses are partaking in birth trauma but compassion burn out is insane with medical professionals. There are very good OBs and nurses who try their best to protect you and make you feel safe. Women should ask their friends with kids who their OB was if they can instead of turning to home births. NICU and ped ER nurses have lots of stories of a poor baby coming to them in a horrible shape after home births.

Edit; alternative medicine moms probably already have like minded friends so I guess if you already drunk the koolaid asking friends for OB recommendations is a moot point. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

[sperginity]

I totally see why people would want to avoid the hospital for birth, but I know that home birth midwives are taking advantage of those women. You can google "power birth" if you want to see a similar set of practices from midwives, some are hands off and some are very authoritarian. There's no one really trying to fix shitty practices in hospitals, critics suggest home birth as a solution instead. I don't think it's fair that women should have to sacrifice safety to have dignity. When the midwives kill babies they rarely apologize or speak to the parents again.

 

[multiverse]

I totally see why people would want to avoid the hospital for birth, but I know that home birth midwives are taking advantage of those women. You can google "power birth" if you want to see a similar set of practices from midwives, some are hands off and some are very authoritarian. There's no one really trying to fix shitty practices in hospitals, critics suggest home birth as a solution instead. I don't think it's fair that women should have to sacrifice safety to have dignity. When the midwives kill babies they rarely apologize or speak to the parents again.

There's a plague of narcissistic doulas and midwives who will lay the nastiest blame on the mother when the child dies due to the negligence of care; I've been trying to find this "open letter" written to the mother of a kid who died that was a masterpiece of gaslighting and blame shifting. I read it years ago on a narcissistic abuse site I believe but it covered a lot of the absolute fuckery in the "home birth" community. The narcissism of the mother and the doula always come before the health and well being of the baby, i.e. "I got MY vbac home birth, despite all medical advice! Baby is in nicu with brain damage see my fundraiser but my dream birth!" "Well I was just following best home birth practice and the birth plan we dreamed of together, I just gave the momma what she needed from the soul, if only she'd not be so stubborn maybe the baby would still be here. oh well not my fault"

 

[Donovan the Man]

I totally see why people would want to avoid the hospital for birth, but I know that home birth midwives are taking advantage of those women. You can google "power birth" if you want to see a similar set of practices from midwives, some are hands off and some are very authoritarian. There's no one really trying to fix shitty practices in hospitals, critics suggest home birth as a solution instead. I don't think it's fair that women should have to sacrifice safety to have dignity. When the midwives kill babies they rarely apologize or speak to the parents again.

There's a plague of narcissistic doulas and midwives who will lay the nastiest blame on the mother when the child dies due to the negligence of care; I've been trying to find this "open letter" written to the mother of a kid who died that was a masterpiece of gaslighting and blame shifting. I read it years ago on a narcissistic abuse site I believe but it covered a lot of the absolute fuckery in the "home birth" community. The narcissism of the mother and the doula always come before the health and well being of the baby, i.e. "I got MY vbac home birth, despite all medical advice! Baby is in nicu with brain damage see my fundraiser but my dream birth!" "Well I was just following best home birth practice and the birth plan we dreamed of together, I just gave the momma what she needed from the soul, if only she'd not be so stubborn maybe the baby would still be here. oh well not my fault"

I agree, home birth is no solution to avoiding birth trauma. Sadly women's health is filled to the brim with abusive people who treat adults like children and have their heads up their asses, but alternative medicine abuse is standard. Scamming a lady with ovarian cancer into continuing to put horse radish in her vagina or some shit until she dies is highly beneficial to woo peddlers. She can't sue or get you arrest when she's dead and gave you all of her retirement savings. Scammers can just pack up and move if things get heated and even go on to scam highly disadvantaged people. Many alternative medicine scammers are setting up shop in South America.

Narcissism runs deep in alternative medicine, the grifters and the marks.

 

[Sexy Potoo]

The Extended Pregancies in the OP reminded me of this timeless gem.

Also, Cr1tikal rips into some of these quacks in this video below.

 

[heathercho]

Mostly the wackadoodles that make me uncomfortable are the crystal healing people. I've seen far too many dildos made out of not-body-safe-materials to trust anyone who insists that sticking rose quartz up your vag will cure your depression. Seems like a good way to catch a preventable disease.

Having sex with randoms off Tinder is a great way to catch preventable diseases, but here we are, suffering idiots with STDS who then try to make it cool and not be shamed by it. People will do what they want and they will justify it. The amount of people shoving rocks up their cunts is probably less than sluts justifying their sluttery by being proud of having STDs.
But that's just the problem : alternative medicine pushed by quacks or progressive attitudes pushed by nutsacks, the less control there is in the world, in society, the more this kind of autistic behaviour will crop up.

I'm not against alt (specifically Asian/Chinese medicine) medicine, because it's obviously a huge part of being a gook, but you have to know when alt medicine is supplementary and when mainstream medicine is needed. Mainstream medicine wouldn't be where it is, without the findings of people who have come before. Not all mainstream medicine is safe and not all doctors are good or even properly qualified, yet when regulated and practiced by someone with skill, it is unquestionably effective. There's a lot of corruption in the pharma/medicine world - which needs more regulatory watchdogs that don't have their hands in the pie and less imported 3rd world "doctors" clogging up the western system.
Which all goes back directly to a lack of rules and control, it really does go both ways.

The individual should be well educated. But not everyone is. I mean personally, when I am out in a crowd of people, maybe at a mall or on a train, I get really irritated by how mindlessly stupid western society is in regard to germs. You'd think these tards would know by now to you know... wear a face mask if you're sick so you don't spread your disease. It's a lack of self control and community responsibility. But to them it's like... not even something that enters their heads to do.

Eating properly healthy, avoiding sugars and having a nutrient/mineral rich consumption, getting exercise and not being fat should be something that people know how to do in an educated society, but the US is full of landwhales. It truthfully doesn't make sense, but here we are with walking soap factories promoting HAES. Common sense is not always common, whether people believe in "woo" or gobble down whatever big pharma gives them.

Edit : Also, fuck off Cammy, get back to your thread. You do an awful lot of coughing, just remember that.