Star Wars Griefing Thread (SPOILERS) - Safety off

Yeah I'd say they gear down for a few years, maybe even to post-OT levels.

If I were them I'd focus on side story type materials set around the OT and from earlier settings to avoid discussing the existence of the sequel trilogy in any works at all for a while. When they get a grip on what they're doing do something impressive and literally give it away on their official youtube or whatever to firmly reestablish that Star Wars got its shit together. Then eventually just skip ahead way past the sequel trilogy and never particularly address that it existed.
 
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They spent 4 billion on this franchise. George essentially sold Lucasfilm to the only entertainment company who could afford to buy it. What entity do you think would be a viable purchaser of the IP, provided Disney isn't willing to take a loss on the sale and expects at least what they paid for it in return? There isn't a movie studio with that kind of money lying around besides Disney.

Disney Star Wars isn't going anywhere, they'll keep tweaking it until either it settles into a smaller scale IP with a more limited fanbase (kind of like where it was post-Prequel Trilogy but pre-Disney acquisition), or they manage to pull off a convincing reboot of the tentpole blockbusters and recover from the bad PR the sequel trilogy has dumped on the brand.
How would you compare that to Disney era Power Rangers?
 
Here is another idea. Keep the Starkiller Base, but have it actually fucking matter in terms of story and setting instead of being generic nu-death star. Have it be the literal capital of the First Order and since its planet sized, have it contain a half dozen different environs that can be handwaved as training/food production/recreation areas and thus make it stand out visually. Also if you gonna borrow the "sucks up star energy" thing from the star forge in KOTOR, have it borrow more in terms of concept by having it be a gigantic factory, churning out and hiding this vast New Order battle fleet the republic is convinced does not exist.

Also throughout the movie emphasise how utterly secure and militarily unstoppable the New Republic is, and how the First Order forces never even try to take on a republic battle fleet, and indeed have it be made obvious in subtext how the military situation is a flipped version of A New Hope, with an overwhelmingly powerful republic assuming it is just casually hunting down a fanatical remnant of the empire that poses no real threat to them.

Most importantly instead of it destroying the republic's capital worlds halfway through the film and then be unceremoniously blown up, have it explicitly blow up Coruscant (not some crappy stand-in) and its surrounding planets along with the majority of the Republic's military forces and ships at the end after the seemingly overpowered republic fleet attacking what they think is just some desolate planet which holds the last remnants of the old empire is utterly kurbstomped when its whole equator splits open revealing not only a deathstar sized solar system destroying gun, but thousands of Star Destroyer hangers that vomit out all the ships they have been building for decades onto the now horribly outnumbered and utterly outgunned fleet, routing it and causing what its survivors to flee in panic as the First Order end the movie pretty much just casually undoing everything the Original Trilogy heroes did in the past 30 years.

Hell you can even work in Harrison Ford's contractually mandated death scene into this with him piloting the Falcon into the core of Starkiller Base and ramming some irreplaceable ancient sith tech doohicky in order to disable the automated factories/supergun/both and thus not only have him die awesomely but also have the gut punch of both him AND the falcon being lost. And ofcourse you set up a ticking clock story thread since the First Order will spend the next two movies trying to repair this damage and thus it gives some more urgency for the events in the next films.

So you had pretty much the same idea as this guy: http://www.scifiwright.com/2018/02/review-of-the-movie-weve-all-been-waiting-for/

It would still be better.

Heck this story is more entertaining and true to star wars than tlj.
 
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Is this his usual ‘rational’ style? I can’t believe I ever subscribed to political YouTube channels, oh well.
What follows below is a way too long takedown of his video.

!POWERLEVELING!

His opening statement makes it clear that he intends to defend the TLJ and that he looks down upon YT'ers who produce videos too quickly. He wanted to wait for the Blu-ray release and informs us that he takes his time with creating videos. Then he voices his disappointment with SW, it has now become part of a larger 'culture war' (tongue in cheek, as if he is not aware of or does not participate in said 'war').

Having shown multiple videos criticising TLJ in his intro (and saying he has watched some), he sums up a list of the most common arguments people have with the movie: Rey = Mary Sue, Snoke remains a mystery, Rose & Finn subplot goes nowhere, Holdo's plan is bad, Luke Skywalker is handled badly ("the most incorrect one"), Rey's parents reveal was disappointing ("it wasn't, it was great"), too much diversity (easy targets ahoy!), the movie was anti-man (again, easy target) and needless politics in a SW movie.
He responds to the last argument by conflating the use of certain aesthetics (stormtroopers, Nazis) and terminology (rebels vs empire, two opposing ideological factions) with actual political messaging, as if a band of ragtag heroes vs a great and mighty empire is necessarily political and isn't simply obvious good vs. obvious evil.
I'll agree that the prequels WERE political, considering that was a huge part of the story but to think that SW using certain imagery and terminology automatically makes it political is retarded.
It's almost as if these people are reading too much into epic space operas.

Next, he makes the observation that ESB and TLJ have similar story beats, although he misses the mark 3/5 times:
"The young hero goes off to train with the reclusive and reluctant master, who isn't the hero they were expecting."
Luke barely teaches Rey anything in TLJ, whereas we get an entire training montage in ESB + Yoda is what Luke was expecting (wise, powerful, skilled) after he drops his initial act as some garbage space creature.
"The characters travel to a new planet where they meet a character who double-crosses them."
True, except Lando's motivation and character were tied with the fate of his city and his relationship with Han, not blatant opportunism and self-interest.
"The young hero abandons their training early to rush off to save their friends and they learn a shocking twisttruth about their parents."
Luke isn't training Rey whatsoever after her first and only lesson, Rey goes off to save Kylo Ren (the antagonist and definitely not her friend) and Rey's revelation isn't shocking in the slightest, as she should know her parents aren't coming back for her and it all ends up being nothing.

Up next: "Rian Jonhson made this movie with a real understanding of what made ESB great, in my opinion."
He then claims this movie doesn't simply emulate ESB but tweaks it in such a way that it makes sense;
his example being Rey's parents. He then explains why the twist in ESB is good ("It takes Luke from a very certain place, to a very uncertain place) and why the inverse works in TLJ (Rey wants someone significant to be her father, ends up getting no one significant).
This ignores how it changes the overall story (absence of parents was important in TFA, in TLJ their identity is important) not to mention that Rey, besides losing a character flaw, doesn't change at all. She still does good for the sake of good, kicks ass, saves the day, beats the big bad and succeeds in protecting what she loves.

Following this, he makes a fatal mistake: "Many of the criticisms applicable to the ST can be applied to the OT, as well." A claim he doesn't back up well enough throughout his video (Most of it centred on ROTJ's first act).
He says Rey isn't unrealistically overpowered for a SW-character his evidence: Luke being able to pilot an X-Wing at the end of ANH "just because he's the protagonist (despite the audience being told multiple times he is a skilled pilot and him even planning to attend the Imperial Academy), Leia being able to fight stormtroopers (gee, it's not as if she could have trained basic combat skills while she was part of the Rebellion), Leia being able to choke out Jabba (he's a fat blob with stubby arms) and Anakin being able to podrace as and pilot as well as he does in TPM (correct).

Then, Shaun defends the Canto Bight subplot by pointing out Han Solo's journey and capture in ESB as well as Luke heading off to save his friends and failing "There are no material differences besides Han being captured and Luke losing a hand." This ignores that Finn and Rose's trip did nothing to evolve their characters, that Canto Bight was very much virtue signalling heaven, that Luke's attitude towards Vader changes and he becomes a better Jedi because of his defeat, or that Han being captured is the sole reason the first act of ROTJ exists.
Rose and Finn may as well do nothing since the escape pods are visible from Snoke's bloody throne room and it takes hours for The Resistance to reach Crait, not to mention that TFO apparently had an anti-cloaking scan available, why wouldn't they just use it when they see this big ship cruiser so close to a planet?
Lastly, the plan in TLJ turns out to be: send the remaining rebels to Crait, not hyperspace to safety.

A smaller segment follows, where he says: "The characters and their experiences matter, not searching around for plot holes to nit-pick." He then brings up small editing errors in both TLJ and ROTJ, and while I agree with him here, he seems to be waylaying any criticism or discussion about greater plot holes entirely.
Such an attitude is incredibly dismissive, to say the least.

We then get to Holdo's plan: he didn't like it on his first viewing, but appreciated it more so on the next and advises people to watch it again, as he thinks many will appreciate TLJ more.
His reasoning as to why Holdo does not tell Poe the plan is "Because he wasn't that person at that point in the story.", citing that the Rebels follow him at the end in order to retreat from TFO and fight another day.
This ignores how Poe would have had to leave the bombers for dead in the opening if he did follow Leia's orders (they were too slow to make it back to the Raddus in time), how Poe simply asks if Holdo has a plan, how Holdo refuses to tell Poe even when they are literally boarding the transports in the background and how Poe decides to retreat when the only viable way for any Rebels to survive on Crait at that point (as nobody knew Luke would show up and save the day) is to suicide themselves into the cannon.
A weak and cursory glance at the criticisms levied against this plotline, by now this is a recurring theme in many of TLJ defenders' videos.

Afterwards, Shaun bashes the first act in ROTJ in order to make TLJ look better. He is correct in his criticisms, yet makes the argument that you can't claim that Disney, Johnson or feminism destroys the old movies because the OT is "exactly the same" (lack of evidence).
Again, he ignores how the state of the galaxy is effectively rebooted to ANH levels of Empirial rule with 2 minutes of backstory provided for 30 years of history. The progress made at the end of ROTJ is nullified, the galaxy is worse of than ever, TFO is still extremely powerful despite losing Starkiller Base, Snoke & Phasma, a good amount of Star Destroyers not to mention half of their flagship.
This really does solidify his ignorance and narrow-minded approach to his subject matter (see his video on Rome, having read multiple books about the fall of Rome, his conclusion is ridiculous when there are multiple historical documents directly contradicting his narrative).


He then tackles Snoke's non-existent backstory, and adds he does feel like this new series is kind of a soft reboot of the originals. He says his backstory hasn't been told yet. (Snoke is dead at this point, he matters not to the overall story now).
His fan theory revolves around his take on SW: OT is liberalism vs fascism, PT is fascism emerging from liberalism (casual mention of Hbomb) and as far as TLJ is concerned this backstory doesn't matter.
He then compares Snoke to the Emperor, forgetting that Palpy only had a prominent role from ROTJ onwards, while Snoke is introduced in TFA and that these movies are SEQUELS, you don't get to skip backstory after jumping forwards this much, 10 minutes of backstory spread out across TFA and TLJ would be more than enough to give the audience a frame of reference and an update as to the current state of the galaxy.
How retarded does one have to be think this does not matter?

Then he says: "You do know what you're asking for when you say you want Snoke's backstory filled out, don't you?" As if basic backstory must be delivered in the form of 3 more movies, for Pete's sake.
Following this, he blames Snoke not having a backstory on TFA, as if TLJ is absolved of explaining stuff just because of its predecessor.
Lastly, he voices some subjective opinions and says he looks forward to the next movie to see where they go with Kylo being in charge of TFO. Funny, considering that is the sole reason I will likely see IX.

He then strawmans people who complain about diversity in these new movies (you know, diversity for diversity's sake) and rebuts people complaining about the anti-male messaging by showing Leia in the OT.
Again he ignores, the on the nose handling of characters like Holdo (no explanation necessary) and Rose Tico ("... saving what we love.").
I actually agree somewhat with people who complain about this, as more than one journalist and critic (including some native to my country) have come forth with the progressive message that males need to keep their testosterone in check while the females need to remind to be calm and collected (even though it makes no sense story wise).

Moving on, he then present his take on Luke Skywalker.
He posits that the legend of the Jedi (guardians of peace) does not compute with the reality (Obi-Wan and Yoda lying to Luke to make him kill his own father). He does not consider they may want to keep him in the dark as to not traumatise/hurt him.
Then he compares Rose & Finn being appalled by slavery on Canto Bight vs. Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon ignoring the problems on Tatooine. A laughable comparison, since Rose & Finn's actions likely cause more trouble for the oppressed than not, furthermore he expects the Jedi to not be distant from a system of oppression completely out of their control.
He confuses being emotionally distant with not feeling bad about objectively horrible practices.

Not to mention, he conflates being the 'guardians of peace' with ensuring everybody on every planet ever has a good life, as if you won't have to make compromises across a galaxy with millions of planets.
Later, he complains about the Force being used as a purely practical tool in the prequels (partially correct) and the Jedi hoarding it selfishly. As if having an established institute of force-users with an overall positive goal is somehow bad.
He goes on about how the movie literally explaining its theme and message in the story is somehow 'not ham-fisted'.
Then, he says Luke's death mirrors Obi-Wan's, completely disregarding that Obi physically confronted Vader and rose to the call to action the moment he was shown Leia's message.
Overall, he seems to ignore any legitimate criticism of Luke's arc whilst straw manning his opposition.

Finally, he finishes his video by listing of some of things he liked in the movie, his final thoughts on how TLJ rejects prophecies, bloodlines, established Force-rules, etc. show he likes this rejection of consistency and he seems to be aware that this movie is almost designed to piss off hardcore fans.

TL;DR Shaun misrepresents his opponents, barely mentions legitimate criticism, presents cursory rebuttals to said criticisms and dares not go down the rabbit hole.

Why are people like this still missing the point as to why fans are pissed off? Are they this blinded by the pretty visuals and """deep""" themes presented in this movie? What the hell is wrong with them, is this what the Anglo-Saxon education system shits out?
I've yet to see any of these people offer nuanced criticism of their opponents, why do they seem unable to see the broader picture?
Ffs, if they want a reasonable and nuanced takedown of TLJ, why don't they watch Mauler's critique?
It is pedantic and far too long but is by far the best on the internet I have seen.
 
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Who cares about about losing billions of dollars when you have the opportunity (that exists only in your tiny pea-brained head) to humiliate those you hate?

I guess these people are blind to Kennedy and Co's obvious failures, but what really strikes me about the people rallying around TLJ and/or Solo is that they seem to have no taste and as such wouldn't really be able to recognize a poor product from a great one. But it's all right so long as it "sends the right message", and then they point to small pockets of online trolls and such as representative of critics, who are all just "manbabies" who don't want to see strong women and POC succeed out of pure spite.
 
It also helps that they've built up Thanos and Gamora for years, allowing for this revelation to occur naturally. In ST, everything is half-assed and thrown at you without allowing it to breath or develop naturally: Snoke dies without ever doing anything memorable on-screen, the First Order exists...without no build up, it's just there for its' sake of having to battle a bad guy again and you'll have to deal with it; Rey is a nobody with no flaws, past or charm, but we have to trust in her cause she's the SaviorTM; Poe and Finn and Rey just turn into instant BFFs just 'cause, Holdo comes out of nowhere and orders us to take her seriously...Any of these things need to be developed and paced naturally and take its time if you want it to resonate and have a satisfying send - off (they reaaaally wanted us to feel something when purple haired witch died, and blame Poe for her death, but even if Poe was acting "dumb" he still made more sense than this rando slowpoke).

Bingo! This is a great example as to why I think that the MCU has actually become the "New" Star Wars. The Marvel movies have done a great job at being a movie serial ... Which is something that Star Wars is SUPPOSED to be able to do.
 
Yes, because poorly written smugass SJW fan fiction is SO much better than the well-loved genre-defining "schlock" that was the OT.
If TLJ is any indication of the """AMAZING""" adventures that the precious PoC and Women characters are going to have from now till the heat death of the universe, I say the "nu-Fans" can keep that shit.
 
I'll state the obvious and repeat it until I am blue in the face:

John Boyega never watched any of the star wars films.

He never wanted to watch any of the star wars films.

He doesn't like the people who work on or the merchandise that are of Star Wars films.

He wanted to get up on his box office soapbox and tell everyone that a movie that brought us Darth Maul, the Ithorian species (refer to KOTOR if you don't know), and Twi'lek titty dancers isn't inclusive enough.

Seeing someone who was merely handed the privilege of being in a Star Wars bitch and moan in PC Platitudes is exceptionally absurd.
 
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Who cares about about losing billions of dollars when you have the opportunity (that exists only in your tiny pea-brained head) to humiliate those you hate?

I guess these people are blind to Kennedy and Co's obvious failures, but what really strikes me about the people rallying around TLJ and/or Solo is that they seem to have no taste and as such wouldn't really be able to recognize a poor product from a great one. But it's all right so long as it "sends the right message", and then they point to small pockets of online trolls and such as representative of critics, who are all just "manbabies" who don't want to see strong women and POC succeed out of pure spite.

Imagine being overwhelmingly filled with hatred that you celebrate the death spiral of a four billion dollar franchise just to spite white people.

What the fuck?
 
So you had pretty much the same idea as this guy: http://www.scifiwright.com/2018/02/review-of-the-movie-weve-all-been-waiting-for/

It would still be better.

Heck this story is more entertaining and true to star wars than tlj.
Its not surprising. Using the bare bones of the story of TFA people seem to always come to similar conclusions as to how it should have been. I know a lot of people who independently arrived at my theory of Snoke being the first ever Jedi (which is also why he renamed the Empire "the first order" and why there were characters making significant mentions of the early history of the jedi and sith) and it seems like almost everyone thought Rey was a former Padawan of Luke's academy which explains both her flashbacks and her stupidly OP'd force/tech/everything abilities.

This is what gets me. I have said before that ANYONE can come up with the bare bones of a good sounding story (hell on paper the prequel trilogy storyline actually looks promising when you factor out how it was actually told on screen), and with the teams of writers disney can afford they could have easily created a trilogy of well written, fan pleasing, money making films which fit like a glove over the existing star wars canon and have overall stories and narratives that feel like it was worth resurrecting the franchise for...

...so why the flying fuck did they go with "mediocre shot for shot remake of A New Hope" followed by "confused and pointless WAT A TWEEEEEEST!" flick that actively shits on the franchise" and seemingly concluded with "double down on everything everyone hated and hope the new ultra mary sue womyn of colored protagonist will magically make the film a success"?!

Even with my unified field theory of dumbass woke marketing/PR that I keep banging on about, it still doesnt make sense in any way that they didnt at the very least try to write the basic plotline to the standards of atleast your average neckbeard fanfic writer.
 
I'll state the obvious and repeat it until I am blue in the face:

John Boyega never watched any of the star wars films.

He never wanted to watch any of the star wars films.

He doesn't like the people who work on or the merchandise that are of Star Wars films.

He wanted to get up on his box office soapbox and tell everyone that a movie that brought us Darth Maul, the Ithorian species (refer to KOTOR if you don't know), and Twi'lek titty dancers isn't inclusive enough.

Seeing someone who was merely handed the privilege of being in a Star Wars bitch and moan in PC Platitudes is exceptionally absurd.

I think I missed something, why would John Boyega hate SW?
I recall he was harassed before TFA, as he was the black stormtrooper revealed in the trailer but this really comes out of left field.
Could you please elaborate?
 
Its not surprising. Using the bare bones of the story of TFA people seem to always come to similar conclusions as to how it should have been. I know a lot of people who independently arrived at my theory of Snoke being the first ever Jedi (which is also why he renamed the Empire "the first order" and why there were characters making significant mentions of the early history of the jedi and sith) and it seems like almost everyone thought Rey was a former Padawan of Luke's academy which explains both her flashbacks and her stupidly OP'd force/tech/everything abilities.

This is what gets me. I have said before that ANYONE can come up with the bare bones of a good sounding story (hell on paper the prequel trilogy storyline actually looks promising when you factor out how it was actually told on screen), and with the teams of writers disney can afford they could have easily created a trilogy of well written, fan pleasing, money making films which fit like a glove over the existing star wars canon and have overall stories and narratives that feel like it was worth resurrecting the franchise for...

...so why the flying fuck did they go with "mediocre shot for shot remake of A New Hope" followed by "confused and pointless WAT A TWEEEEEEST!" flick that actively shits on the franchise" and seemingly concluded with "double down on everything everyone hated and hope the new ultra mary sue womyn of colored protagonist will magically make the film a success"‽

Even with my unified field theory of dumbass woke marketing/PR that I keep banging on about, it still doesnt make sense in any way that they didnt at the very least try to write the basic plotline to the standards of atleast your average neckbeard fanfic writer.

Because fanfic writers, regardless of their quality, usually at least like the franchise they are writing about.

The people Disney put in charge, in contrast, actively seemed to not only hate the franchise, but hate the people who loved it enough to buy all the merchandise and see the film 10 times in the cinema. They wanted a different crowd, a different kind of 'fan' that within the confines of their own hugboxes they were convinced were part of a massive, untapped market of money and wokeness.

They assumed they could get this new crowd, while contemptedly assuming the other scum would act like abused housewives, and take any trash they threw at them with desperate happiness. They were wrong. Now they must suffer the consequences.
 
There is a tiny sliver of hope that we might eventually get some insight into what JJ Abrams told Rian Johnson about the stuff that he set up in TFA...
I mean, there's rumors that Johnson was given some suggestions by Abrams and I would love to see what exactly those were.

In hindsight, it wouldn't even surprise me if Johnson threw them out and did his best to do the exact opposite to spite Abrams, come to think about it. "Fuck this shit, I'm doing this my way!"
 
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Who cares about about losing billions of dollars when you have the opportunity (that exists only in your tiny pea-brained head) to humiliate those you hate?

I guess these people are blind to Kennedy and Co's obvious failures, but what really strikes me about the people rallying around TLJ and/or Solo is that they seem to have no taste and as such wouldn't really be able to recognize a poor product from a great one. But it's all right so long as it "sends the right message", and then they point to small pockets of online trolls and such as representative of critics, who are all just "manbabies" who don't want to see strong women and POC succeed out of pure spite.
Yeah, I never understood that attitude. You're just being petty and vindictive in an apparently socially acceptable way.

To use something else that's currently fucking up big time, I'll point to comics. Current writers and artists are infamous for not being able to keep their issues and political opinions in their pants but I don't particularly hate them for it, clearly they should talk to somebody about that. I just want to be able to talk about the Fantastic Four or some cool thing in Spider-Man instead of shit-flinging over some race/sex swap they think will be the next great thing. That doesn't mean there can't be a place for your "trans WoC" stories and I'd read them too if they're interesting. Maybe one of us is a monster worthy of contempt IRL but that seems irrelevant in this context.
 
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