Dumb Shit on Wikipedia

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In fairness I think some people will give the dumb answer to troll when asked something that stupid by a pollster.

I've seen it called the "reptilian effect", after how polling repeatedly suggests that between 1% and 3% of Americans supposedly believe that reptilians control the country. But then again, can we really be sure that millions of Americans don't believe that reptilians control the country?
 
I like fucking up these types of polls any time I can.

When I was in high school they gave aptitude tests for whatever reason and then sometimes they'd tack on some political attitudes and other bullshit test and I'd just answer how either Charles Manson or Hitler would answer because I really hated having my time wasted. I preferred wasting it myself.
 
Sarah Jeong's Wikipedia talk page is a firestorm at the moment. The leftist editors are trying hard to prevent any mention of racism and one has outright stated that you can't be racist against "so-called white people".

Some Quotes:
Someone posts a BBC article where the headline says that the tweets were racist (as a source that they should be considered racist). Then the BBC does what they're known for - capitulating to a leftist agenda - and changes the headline to say that the tweets were "inflammatory" rather than racist. Another Wikipedia editor then edits the person's post without their permission. Then said post edit is reverted by someone else and the guy that edited it is accused of Orwellianism:
*** @XavierItzm: I have changed your comment, since the BBC changed the article today. For anyone wondering, the BBC used to say "racist" but now says "inflammatory". You can see somewhere below where I criticize this decision by the BBC, but if they changed it, we have to respect that. wumbolo ^^^ 16:33, 3 August 2018 (UTC)
I've reverted this Orwellian change. Changing someone else's comment on a talk page is not acceptable.2600:1012:B147:F1EA:F559:8E27:8070:B4CB (talk) 09:32, 5 August 2018 (UTC)

A retard basically saying "many leftist news sources are saying that this leftist journalist isn't a racist and other leftists are defending her by saying it's satire, who knows whether this is something worth even adding to her page":
Other points: the term "racist" is definitely not being used universally; ABC, WashPost, and USNews use the expression "derogatory". CNN calls "disparaging" and notes many people defending Jeong call them "satirical". Who knows where it will land when the dust settles--if anywhere worth noting.

Apparently the tweets weren't racist (the numbered points are responses to someone saying that there are more than enough sources to move forward with editing her page to add the recent controversy):
Strong oppose nothing racist about her tweets, no reference for the tweets being racist either.
1) That's not a ocunter-argument to anything that I've said above. Thats' your original research that her comments were racist - they were not. 1.1) You have to provide arguments why her claims are racist, preferably some good sources, you didn't cite any. 1.2) You can't be racist towards the so-called "white people"
Some people think you can be racist against white people, however, and think that Jeong's statements should be called racist, leading to this lit comment:
Support I support the sentence as proposed. I fail to see why this is an issue stating fact here. Numerous statements were made that disparaged white people. At the time she apparently had no problem whatsoever with publicly broadcasting them, and her statement now that she was "counter trolling" falls on its face by analyzing the context with which they were made. Also, she is not a comedian, so she can not claim that she made them in the "joke" context. Is there some sort of mystical-magical ceremony that someone goes through that removes all traces of previous racial hatred because suddenly they want to get a paycheck from the Times? I do not understand the apparent multiple standards that Wikipedia appears to be embracing with these apparently biased editing decisions. As such, I think I could also support the statement somewhere "The New York Times has decided to hire a known anti-white racist." Perhaps maybe in the article for the NYT even. Nodekeeper (talk) 12:53, 3 August 2018 (UTC)
A Wikipedo suddenly thinks that racism is just, like, your opinion, man:
Support inclusion of event but do not use the word 'racist' to describe the tweets. Racist is an opinion which should not be done in Wikipedia's voice. I wager to include This version of the events as it is the most accurate according to WP:RS. It should be noted that the reliable sources do include examples of the tweets themselves. Per WP:biggrin:UE weight with all the of the WP:RS, this is a significant event for the subject and deserves a mention in the very least. We have to word it correctly to abide by WP:BLP of course, but it does not deserve to be excluded. Tutelary (talk) 15:22, 3 August 2018 (UTC)
But someone isn't happy about that:
While I sympathize with most of the comment, it is quite a slippery slope to start saying that racism is a matter of opinion. In this particular case, we have the BBC reporting it straight that the subject "wrote racist tweets". There is no opinion: it is news reportage from what (up until yesterday!) was considered by many to be an unimpeachable WP:RS. But as this very thread and threads above show, the BBC is far from being the only one straight reporting racism. Consider, for example, the preeminent news organisation in Australia:
A JOURNALIST who tweeted racist abuse about “dumbass f***ing white people” claims she was only “counter-trolling”.[3][emphasis added]. Cheers to all, XavierItzm (talk) 16:03, 3 August 2018 (UTC)
Someone responds by pointing out that the BBC backed down and changed their headline and even comments on how biased the BBC is:
@XavierItzm: actually, the BBC is no longer "reporting it straight" that the subject "wrote racist tweets". They changed "racist" to "inflammatory" and provided this explanation:

Update 3 August 2018: This article and its headline were updated after reflecting on Sarah Jeong's statement explaining her actions.

It's really depressing how journalists find defending their journalist friends more important than facts. Seriously, someone "apologizes" for something you think is racist, and then you no longer think it's racist?! But the BBC still describes harassment against her as including racist slurs. wumbolo ^^^ 16:26, 3 August 2018
Someone actually requests that her entire article be deleted because it would be the "kindest thing to do" as it might "ruin her life." So it looks like white knighting leftist thots is a credible reason to delete content on Wikipedia, now:
The kindest thing to do here may be to delete the article. Before this episode, the article references are either not independent of the source (college or employer), or mentions in articles that are not about her as the subject. Even her book is self-published published by her employer (Forbes). Even with this coverage, it could be considered one event, so though notable, her notability is not sustained. Seems a shame to ruin her life when the real problem is with the way the NYT has treated Jeong vs. Quinn Norton episodes.
Apparently racist tweets that got international coverage aren't notable enough to be added to her article:
We can certainly agree that this episode as it stands to date (coverage of tweets, nothing more) would never form an adequate basis for passing AfD; that's why we're having an conversation about whether it should even be included in the article, which is a lower standard than "notability" for having a standalone entry.
Someone submits a proposal for how the event should be summarised in her article, and it's laughably biased:
In August 2, 2018 conservatives commentators on social media drew attention to tweets that Jeong made in 2014 that were disparaging to white people.'The New York Times' issued a comment noting that she was a target of frequent online harassment and that the tweets were Jeong responding by "imitating her accusers." The 'Times' has also said that they do not condone Jeong's tweets and that Jeong regrets her approach to responding to harassment.
But another editor isn't happy:
I don't know that I could agree with the way you've written this. Citing "conservative commentators" and not mentioning that it was a large news story in mainstream news makes it sound more partisan than it actually was.
I also don't know if avoiding the word "racist" is the right thing to do at this point; certainly we shouldn't describe her as racist, but when the BBC has a headline up for 12 hours on their front page characterizing the tweets as racist, and when many (if not every) other major news networks have done the same, it seems most appropriate to characterize them as racist. Still, if you want to avoid the word, I would change your first sentence back to being something about receiving widespread criticism in the news media, because we have plenty of sources to back that claim up. Maybe make it:

In August 2018, Jeong received widespread criticism in the news media in response to tweets she had made in 2014 that were disparaging to white people. 'The New York Times' issued a comment noting that she was a target of frequent online harassment and that the tweets were Jeong responding by "imitating her accusers." The 'Times' has also said that they do not condone Jeong's tweets and that Jeong regrets her approach to responding to harassment.

And I would append the following three sources as citations:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-45052534

https://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/ny-times-stands-hire-sarah-jeong-twitter-furor-56994680

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/08/02/business/media/sarah-jeong-new-york-times.html
Another leftist chimes in, saying that the article shouldn't mention the controversy, that her tweets cannot be said to be racist and that the whole thing is a conspiracy to get a journalist fired:
Oppose. Same problems I've mentioned before. Undue weight in a relatively short biography contravenes policy on biographies of living people. Basically every sentence is loaded in some manner. Whether the tweets were disparaging in the first place (e.g. articles linked above have characterized them as tongue-in-cheek). Dredging up the tweets has been described as a bad-faith effort to harass/discredit/fire a journalist. To discuss all this would require a lot of original research and misusing the site since Wikipedia is not a news aggregator.Citing (talk) 18:09, 3 August 2018 (UTC)
Someone isn't happy that people are avoiding calling her a racist:
Oppose the watered down version Google reports "About 66,400 results (0.56 seconds)" for a search of "racist" on en.wikipedia.org. There is no evidence an embargo of the term "racist" on Wikipedia. Additionally, the proposed references do not include the RS sources who are doing the criticism. And the prose does not mention that the NYT rescinded an offer for the very same position for the very same reason to another journalist. "New York Times slammed by critics for 'hypocritical double standard' after standing by Sarah Jeong". IMHO the only neutral source includes racist in the title, "The New York Times Shouldn't Fire Sarah Jeong for Racist Tweets About White People", Reason Magazine. ESparky (talk) 18:10, 3 August 2018 (UTC)
M'good sir, mayhaps you should consider that using scholarly language to describe the actions of m'lady is more befitting a station of our repute?:
ESparky, I'd wonder if you'd reconsider the "New Proposal" instead of your "Alternative Proposal". Newspaper rhetoric is not optimal for encyclopedia writing. The phrase "disparaging to white people" might seem like an insipid replacement for "racist" but it moves us away from headlines into more scholarly prose. Why not take this compromise given the vast spectrum of opinions here today? Perhaps we can get a consensus for this. The links still provide ample details on the story. Jason from nyc (talk) 16:48, 4 August 2018 (UTC)
Some ruffians respond:
Sorry, but the use of euphemisms is not scholarly prose. We have a word for the practice, it is called racism. She was called out for racist statements in at least dozen RS headlines, not disparaging remarks. The following is state of mind, “oh man it's kind of sick how much joy I get out of being cruel to old white men", it is not disparaging remark, there is no target, just a race and gender. The terms "disparaging" and "rhetoric" is the apologetic spin that came later. Your version even avoids citations with "racist" in any of the titles. Racism is the actual accusation levied. I think my alternate explains the entire story concisely, to include the previous woman who was fired for the same thing. The apologists can tack their spin to the bottom going forward. ESparky (talk) 17:24, 4 August 2018 (UTC)
Strongest possible support Why on earth is there no mention of perhaps the sole notable episode in the life of Sarah Jeong? Does 48 hours of international news coverage by literally nearly every media outlet of record not warrant one sentence in an article that mentions such trivialities as the fact that she and someone called 'Peter Higgins' launched a newsletter? Jeong's open racism, and the supposedly liberal-leaning (but suddenly 100% fine with racism) NYT's defense of her *is* the reason she is notable enough to warrant a Wikipedia entry, to most of the world.
It's all a "bad faith" trolling campaign orchestrated by the right-wing, just look at these completely unbiased news sources that prove this!:
Oppose in current form: "widespread criticism" is misleading, given that multiple independent sources published since the initial furore, such as CJR, Vox, CNN, WaPo, The Guardian, and The Independent, describe the criticism/backlash as coming almost exclusively from right-wing figures. Several also explicitly paint the controversy as a bad-faith trolling campaign, including The Guardian, Vox, and CJR. The stuff about regret/not condoning etc. is The kind of PR boilerplate we would expect from any public figure, and their employer, in such a situation; by themselves, those statements don't add much to readers' meaningful understanding of the subject.
All of those articles are biased as hell, but the CJR one is so laughably blatant that it beggars belief (the parts where it says James Wood's name followed by a quote from him are his tweets, the formatting didn't copy/paste properly):
Sarah Jeong, The New York Times, and the Gamergate School of Journalism
By David Uberti[/paste:font]AUGUST 3, 20181148 WORDS

ON THURSDAY, JUST A DAY after The New York Times announced Sarah Jeong as the newest member of its editorial board, she also joined the small but growing club of journalists who’ve been labeled as the real racists in certain corners of the internet.

Right-wing media outlets dredged up a series of inflammatory tweets Jeong sent between 2013 to 2015, in which she appeared to demonize white people. Creatures of the pro-Trump fever swamps—take actor James Woods, who’s amassed 1.64 million Twitter followers as a bruising defender of the president—employed it in their anti-media crusade. Fox News ran with it in primetime.



James Woods
Well, at least she’s an equal opportunity #racist regarding gender...



James Woods
So the @nytimes welcomes its newest member to the editorial board...


James Woods
And this #racist nitwit...

Such culture-war dustups are a fixture of digital life. But in the Trump era they’ve jumped from comment sections and Reddit threads to the highest levels of national politics and media, forcing the professional press to belatedly grapple with how to respond. The Times and The Verge both put out statements Thursday following the uproar among conservatives over Jeong’s tweets. Their divergent responses provided a clear snapshot of arguably the largest fault line within journalism today: the one between journalists who have grown up on the internet, and the media organizations who haven’t.

This split can make itself visible at times through political ideology and, in turn, opposing views on objectivity and detachment. But at its core it’s generational. And it divides journalists on issues ranging from how to respond to harassment campaigns to the way to frame coverage of President Donald Trump.

Jeong, for her part, offered contrition in a statement on Thursday. Female journalists are far more likely to be harassed than their male colleagues, and the 30-year-old Asian-American described her past tweets as “counter-trolling” in response to racist and sexist abuse she received while covering tech and digital culture. The Times itself echoed that sentiment in its own statement soon after:

Her journalism and the fact that she is a young Asian woman have made her a subject of frequent online harassment. For a period of time she responded to that harassment by imitating the rhetoric of her harassers. She sees now that this approach only served to feed the vitriol that we too often see on social media. She regrets it, and The Times does not condone it.

Jeong’s tweets were bad, in short, and the writer herself acknowledged “how hurtful these posts are out of context.” But they weren’t bad enough for the Times to un-hire her, leaving many on the right interpreting it as tacit approval of her supposed views. Andrew Sullivan seethed in New York magazine that the idea Jeong was merely mimicking her harassers is “the purest of bullshit.” Fox News’s Tucker Carlson—who’s carved out a large niche as the voice of aggrieved white men—took the occasion to characteristically flay all of mainstream media. “In point of fact,” he said, “[Jeong’s] views are commonplace in the American establishment, maybe universal.”

The notion that a few tweets from one young writer is evidence of an emerging front in institutional racism is proof enough that nothing can satisfy such arguments. It’s bad faith, as many digital journalists have come to call these criticisms, and it willfully ignores historical nuance and context. The Times didn’t bow to that pressure. But it did suggest that the critics had a point.

The Verge, meanwhile, put out a far more muscular response on Jeong’s behalf. A note from editorial leadership of the Vox-owned site targeted her critics rather than engaging with them:

Online trolls and harassers want us, the Times, and other newsrooms to waste our time by debating their malicious agenda. They take tweets and other statements out of context because they want to disrupt us and harm individual reporters. The strategy is to divide and conquer by forcing newsrooms to disavow their colleagues one at a time. This is not a good-faith conversation; it’s intimidation.

So we’re not going to fall for these disingenuous tactics. And it’s time other newsrooms learn to spot these hateful campaigns for what they are: attempts to discredit and undo the vital work of journalists who report on the most toxic communities on the internet.

This may appear hypocritical from the outside looking in; the mean tweets are OK this time because they came from someone on our team. But the reality is this aggressive stance is born from years under fire from critics who give journalists’ work the least generous interpretation possible in order to further their own interests. Does Fox News and the pro-Trump internet really want The New York Times to improve its internal culture and journalistic ethics? Or is painting “the media” as enemy of the people central to their business model and political mission?

Answering such questions requires value judgments about motive, which the Times and many other legacy outlets tend to avoid on issues ranging from Trump’s “lies” to criticism of their respective publications. The Verge pointed to its own experience on this front in its statement, comparing the way Jeong’s tweets were whipped into national news with Gamergate.

The 2014 harassment-campaign-masked-as-media-critique was a formative episode for many digital outlets and reporters, as critics weaponized media norms of civility and balance against journalism itself. Writers who spoke out about gaming’s overwhelming whiteness or masculinity—and who often happened to be women or people of color—were met with hard-edged grievance politics from critics who were overwhelmingly white and male. Their cries about ethics in gaming journalism largely amounted to concern trolling aimed to get the media to do as they wished. You may recognize such tactics by Trump and some of his supporters online today.

Whether the Times and other legacy outlets can employ some of the lessons of Gamergate without drastically reorienting their values—staying neutral without validating bad-faith arguments—remains an open question. The current political environment would seem to make it all but impossible for outlets that prize the appearance of impartiality.

For now, though, young journalists like Jeong, who have long been told to be bold and edgy, to build a brand, develop a voice, and explore their personal identities for $150 a pop, are exposed. As longtime Gawker blogger Alex Pareene pointed out Thursday, the implicit agreement made by such kid-writers “was that the web would feed us” in return for a new, digitally native style of journalism. But the digital media industry has also proven unable to sustain itself, and as political enemies close in, it turns out that these journalists might be the ones who get eaten.

Editor’s note: James Bennet, editorial-page editor of The New York Times, is a member of CJR’s Board of Overseers.
Spats continue and later down the talk page someone points out the double standards:
Evidently over a long period there are also numerous anti-police statements as well;[7][8] "“If we’re talking big sweeping bans on shit that kills people, why don’t we ever ever ever ever talk about banning the police?"

"“let me know when a cop gets killed by a rock or molotov cocktail or a stray shard of glass from a precious precious window.”

"“Cops are assholes,”

I would not be opposed to deleting the article and merging with the NYT article a single sentence that states that they hired Sarah Jeong, an anti-white and anti-police racist for their editorial board. Anybody want to help me defend the edits? Nodekeeper (talk) 20:23, 3 August 2018 (UTC)
If you actually read Neutral point of view and Biographies of living persons, you would see why describing anyone in Wikipedia's voice as an anti-white and anti-police racist is a non-starter. —Sangdeboeuf (talk) 05:13, 4 August 2018 (UTC)
At this point there is a myriad of sources calling her views racist. --RandomUser3510 (talk) 05:37, 4 August 2018 (UTC)
Statements, yes possibly. Views, possibly (depending on the reliability of the source). That does not mean we characterize the person herself as such. —Sangdeboeuf (talk) 05:46, 4 August 2018 (UTC) (edited 23:41, 4 August 2018 (UTC))
That's fine, but please explain how this only applies to Sarah Jeoung and not others. Right-leaning people are carpet bombed as right supremacist Nazi skinheads via the ADL (see Lana Lokteff) even when they deny being so. Yet Sarah Jeoung gets the benefit of A) her statements =/= her views and B) not even having it mentioned in the article despite numerous articles about it --RandomUser3510 (talk) 05:53, 4 August 2018 (UTC)
Sorry, but that's a red herring. "Other crap exists" has no bearing on the improvement of this page. Much of the commentary on this talk page (let alone the blatantly partisan media commentary cited as sources) also has more than a whiff of concern trolling about it, which doesn't inspire too much confidence in the proposed changes. —Sangdeboeuf (talk) 06:33, 4 August 2018 (UTC)
It's not a red herring, it's an example of bias. Sarah Jeong is getting privileges added to her Wikipedia page, whereas other people (right-leaning) in politics are not. Indicating bias is a step in improving the article. I can accept that Sarah Jeong can get these privileges but at least we can have consistency with others going forward. --RandomUser3510 (talk) 06:37, 4 August 2018 (UTC)
Persisting with wanting to add the anti-police statements top the article, a leftist responds by claiming that wanted to add the tweets to the wikipedia article is part of a harassment campaign, then disparages The Spectator as an unreliable source because it calls out leftist media bias:
The anti-police statements are also cited elsewhere. For example:
Police? “Cops f—king suck” and “they’re f—king horrible,” according to this Harvard Law alumna, who hates the men and women whose job it is to enforce the law. She responded to the 2014 race riot in Ferguson, Missouri, by aiming obscenities at the police and declaring “America is f—king racist.”[1][Emphasis added]. It might be worth mentioning at some point. Cheers to all, XavierItzm (talk) 08:18, 4 August 2018 (UTC)
Oppose minor, unimportant trivia. If we were to add every random tweet to each and every article on Wikipedia we would seize to be an encyclopedia. Also, the context. It's pretty obvious that attempts to add these tweets are yet another extension of the harassment campaign. The article has been around on Wikipedia for months and got no attention, but then the campaign started and boom - multiple attempts at vandalism so much so that the article had to be locked by an admin Openlydialectic (talk) 09:03, 4 August 2018 (UTC)

Any source that uses such charming phraseology as "No one at Harvard or at the New York Times will speak a word in favor of white people, Christians, heterosexuals, or police officers ... the white males at the New York Times would probably commit suicide en masse if they believed such a gesture might help Nancy Pelosi win back the House Speaker’s gavel" and describes the subject as having "made her bargain with the Devil" is quite obviously an opinion essay and not reliable for factual statements, especially in articles about living persons. —Sangdeboeuf (talk) 09:17, 4 August 2018 (UTC)
Ad-hominem attack, irrelevant to the citation. The citation merely cites facts, which is what can (and should) be included in an enyclopaedia.XavierItzm (talk) 10:53, 4 August 2018 (UTC)
Someone who edits Wikipedia still hasn't realized that it's propaganda:
This article is not neutral because it doesn't show any of the criticism of her, in mainstream publications by authors with reputations in the printe media, like Andrew Sullivan. Wikipedia is not propaganda. If there's a controversy, or early work, it should mention it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.130.68.55 (talk) 20:30, 3 August 2018 (UTC)
People point out the double standards:
reached, and that is not happening here. Ikjbagl (talk) 00:16, 4 August 2018 (UTC)

Support Between January 9 and August 2 there were no edits to this article. It used to be a stub.

Since then there have been dozens and dozens of edits, all ignoring the sole reason why Sarah has everyone's attention. The rationale seems clear: to puff up the article and insulate Sarah from the inclusion of criticism given her actions.

If there's one and only reason why someone is famous or infamous, then it should feature prominently in their article, if they're going to have an article at all. When editors play favorites like this (notice no such protection was ever given to anyone accused of #metoo misconduct) then it erodes the trust people have in Wikipedia.2600:1700:B951:3F40:9E40:FEE3:9AD8:9C28 (talk) 04:50, 4 August 2018 (UTC)

Support Clearly there is WP:biggrin:isrupt taking place on the article and the talk page. Editors that are actively engaged in active WP:censorship need to be noted by the community and be banned from editing the article and talk page. Nodekeeper (talk) 07:20, 4 August 2018 (UTC)

Support This is very telling. kencf0618 (talk) 09:16, 4 August 2018 (UTC)

Strong support - OP makes a very good point, I haven't seen this happen for many, if any, other locked articles. Jdcomix(talk) 13:27, 4 August 2018 (UTC)
Someone seriously suggests adding a section claiming that there is a harassment campaign against her that is the basis for all the recent controversy and that it is possibly being orchestrated by the Russian government and that right-wing people participating in said "harassment" need to be named:
Let's draft a few sentences about the ongoing harassment campaign against her

So as the editors above noted, her page currently states no information about the topic that got her into the attention of the media - the ongoing harassment campaign against her. I've already posted the following above a few days ago, but of course that comment was removed by trolls. Here's what I wrote:

"(...) the harassment campaign against her should be mentioned in the article, however we have to remember the Undue weight rule. 1-2 sentences would be enough for an article this small. I propose the following: 1 sentence to explain how she became a target of the harassment campaign, and 1 more to describe the trolls/bots/influencers/etc who were behind the campaign."

What do you people think? I would have written a more precise draft but I am not a native speaker and am afraid of going against English rules, but I think we should absolutely mention the harassment campaign., including the right-wing personal participating in it and the possible russian involvement Openlydialectic (talk) 10:45, 4 August 2018 (UTC)
Disagreement:
Strong oppose, there is no secondary source information about a harassment campaign, only that her old tweets have been reported on. Reporting that someone has made racist statements does not equate to a harassment campaign, and no reliable secondary sources have described it that way (I think someone posted a blog from Huffington Post? That's not a reliable source). Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not a place to blog or post opinions or original research; please come back with reliable sources. Ikjbagl (talk) 11:26, 4 August 2018 (UTC)
Her allegations of a harassment campaign can be mentioned as this is part of her apologetics and explains her position. We shouldn't present this as fact unless, as Ikjbagl notes, there are reliable secondary sources. Jason from nyc (talk) 11:33, 4 August 2018 (UTC)
They respond by quoting far-left media:
Some do frame it as harassment, or at least cite others who do:
  • The Independent: "[Jeong] has been targeted for harassment by dishonest trolls, her former employer has claimed"
  • Vox: "Jeong’s detractors organized to deploy a system of performative outrage ... launching a torrent of violent, racist, and misogynistic speech at both Jeong and the New York Times"
However, a greater number characterize the media response as more of a bad-faith concern trolling campaign:
  • CNN: "Jeong had more than a few backers, who argued that the tweets were being highlighted by bad faith actors who were only interested in getting a journalist fired"
  • The Guardian: "The result is a situation in which antisemitic trolls and a blog with a history of defending white supremacy can accuse an Asian writer of racism. When her employer defends her against the charge, figures on the right use that to stoke racial tensions and claim liberals are racists"
  • Columbia Journalism Review: "The notion that a few tweets from one young writer is evidence of an emerging front in institutional racism is proof enough that nothing can satisfy such arguments. It’s bad faith, as many digital journalists have come to call these criticisms"
  • The Cut: "Today, the Times declared that it was standing by Jeong — but also issued an apology in response to the bad-faith criticism from the right" (opinion, needs attribution)
  • The New Statesman: "some of [Jeong's] responses were unearthed and paraded as evidence, in a mind-bendingly paradoxical exercise in hypocrisy, that Jeong herself is a racist" (ditto)
  • Fast Company: "Now, over the last day or so, bad-faith online trolls have dug up her past tweets ... and have deemed them 'racist'" (ditto)

Really makes you think:
What's with the admin-level protection?
Is this normal, that a person's BLP gets HEAVILY curated of any criticism and immediately after the article gets promoted to admin-level protection? It's "strange" to assume good-faith when somebody this much in the media focus gets this kind of treatment. FFS we don't even protect main-page articles that get millions of views, and we admin-protect a stub that has every ounce of criticism whitewashed away? Nergaal (talk) 19:42, 4 August 2018 (UTC)
Someone posts biased, leftist news sources to "prove" the the controversy is a right-wing conspiracy:
Independent, reliable sources that I have seen are near-unanimous in attributing the uproar to conservative/right-wing sites and personalities. The AP (also picked up by USA Today and U.S. News & World Report) and BBC cited above are among the most solid, mainstream sources we could use for current breaking news. But also see:
  • The Independent "After being uncovered [the tweets] quickly spread and were picked up by conservativemedia including the Daily Caller and Gateway Pundit websites"
  • The Guardian "The response has infuriated those on the right, including Mike Huckabee and Rod Dreher, who have accused Jeong of being racist against white people ... Jeong’s experience in the last two days has highlighted the way the 'alt-right' is unearthing problematic social media posts in order to try and get opponents fired"
  • The Washington Post "At right-leaning outlets such as Fox News, the Daily Caller, the Gateway Pundit, Breitbart and Infowars, Jeong’s tweets were skewered as 'racist,' 'offensive' and 'anti-white' ... To some conservatives, her hiring, and the subsequent defense issued by the Times, was an example of how liberals get away with their own brand of racism — against white people"
  • CNN "Faced with criticism and indignation from conservatives, the New York Times on Thursday said it is standing by a new hire ... the backlash, mainly coming from the right, was matched in intensity by a show of solidarity among fellow journalists"
  • Vox "The New York Times announced this week that tech journalist Sarah Jeong will join its editorial board — and the ensuing outcry from right-wing Twitter was both swift and familiar ... the alt-right used her old tweets to accuse her of being racist against white people"
  • Columbia Journalism Review "Right-wing media outlets dredged up a series of inflammatory tweets Jeong sent between 2013 to 2015, in which she appeared to demonize white people ... The Times and The Verge both put out statements Thursday following the uproar among conservatives over Jeong’s tweets"
Sangdeboeuf (talk) 06:45, 5 August 2018 (UTC)
A reasonable person wastes their time:
I disagree with most of the paragraph as it attempts to perform a slight subterfuge by saying "The critics characterized her tweets as being racist against white people;" Do we really need "critics" to define the tweets as racist wheneverybody agrees that they are. Or, is it because that they happen to be against white people, then they aren't reallyracist? Also, saying that they were "mostly in 2013 and 2014" ignores the fact that her twitter was active through 2017 when her anti-police statements appeared. Were those "counter-trolling" as well because of harassment? Harassment from who? I think we need to separate the so called "counter trolling" tweets from the others. Perhaps two or three sections. Her anti-white anti-male "counter trolling" tweets in one section then another section describing her other anti-police tweets at later dates. A paragraph describing her first tweets, then the New York Times response, then a paragraph describing her later twitter statements. Nodekeeper (talk) 05:01, 5 August 2018 (UTC)
There was an exchange where someone mentions a talk she gave where she blamed white men for the world's problems, which contradicts the excuse that her racism was a response to randos on twitter. Completely unbiased Wikipedo responds by pretending to not understand why this would be relevant:
Talk at Harvard - It's all white men's fault[edit]
Another source completely outside of the "twitterverse" and presumably then not while being "harassed" has appeared. She gave a talk at Harvard Law School - The Berkman Klein Center for Internet and Society, on October 30, 2015. She said;

Everything is implicitly organized around how men see the world. And not just men, how white men see the world. And this, this is a problem. This is why so many things suck.

Source. I think this needs to be included after the New York Time's statement that they issued. Nodekeeper (talk) 07:03, 5 August 2018 (UTC)
Why is that? —Sangdeboeuf (talk) 07:44, 5 August 2018 (UTC)
Because it would best highlight the bigotry that exists on ultra left wing propaganda machines like NYT and Wikipedia.Mantion (talk) 07:57, 5 August 2018 (UTC)
hat's not a good enough reason. PaulCHebert (talk) 08:05, 5 August 2018 (UTC)
Wiki bias:
#cancelwikipedians[edit]
This article and its treatment on the talkpage continues to look like a sham. Wikipedia has stopped being a neutral, balanced presentation of factual events. The whiteknighting army here continues to push a non-sources based agenda, and completely ignores actual 3rd party sources. I am sure anybody reading something like #cancelwikipedians will feel at least somewhat bothered, but well-covered opinions in a similar outrageous perspective is completely ok to continue being ignored in the article. Nergaal (talk) 08:38, 5 August 2018 (UTC)
Someone points out that being a hateful twat on twitter was something she was known for, even ironically attacking the paper that she now works for:
Examples of non - "Counter Trolling" tweets?
There are some additional tweets from the anti-white male racist tweets time period that could be an example of tweets that are not "imitating her harassers" as the New York Times has lazily posited. There are, ironically, tweets where she hates on her future employer (and future colleagues there); After a bad day, some people come home and kick the furniture. I get on the internet and make fun of the New York Times.

I feel really bad for the 95% of the New York Times that already seethes with resentment over their horrible columnists

Guys, what drugs do you think Paul Krugman does

I feel really bad for the 95% of the New York Times that already seethes with resentment over their horrible columnists,

Source. So in the statement about Sarah Jeong's "counter trolling" explanation there can be some examples of tweets that were not addressing so called harassment. Nodekeeper (talk) 09:22, 5 August 2018 (UTC)
Unfortunately, only "high-quality" sources (i.e. ones that are leftist) are acceptable (high-quality and unbiased sources means her current employer and herself (except when her own tweets make her look bad, then her own statements aren't to be treated as fact)):
In terms of balance, the NYT's explanation, which is referred to by multiple independent, reliable sources, would be given much greater weight. Exceptional claims require exceptional sources, which the partisan blog American Thinker is not (and in fact seems to be just another self-published source). You would need multiple high-quality publications claiming that any of these tweets are relevant. The "counter-trolling" rationale was in response to accusations of Jeong's supposed racism, remember? These tweets appear to have nothing to do with race or ethnicity, but once again, it's a moot point without a published source mentioning it. —Sangdeboeuf (talk) 10:41, 5 August 2018 (UTC)
The response:
Sarah Jeongs tweets possibly could be considered a primary source see WP:Twitter-EL. As such, the WP:Weight is not always needed or applicable. Many of Sarah Jeong's tweets can be used as sources according to Wikipedia policy see WP:Twitter. I would submit that you stop trying to come up with excuses to not do so. I have posted some on the talk page in order to collaborate with other editors to develop relevant topics and specific prose for them.
These tweets appear to have nothing to do with race or ethnicity,
Actually they do, as they show her state of mind during and after the period that she claims she was being harassed, which was in fact the supposed reason for her wide scale tweets of hatred of a specific race and gender, if not her call for genocide. This is actually extremely relevant, because sitting on the New York Times editorial board she could be help making important decisions concerning coverage of the white genocide in South Africa. I personally don't think that's joke material, but maybe that's just me. Nodekeeper (talk) 11:46, 5 August 2018 (UTC)

I don't blame anyone who can't be bothered reading all this bullshit, by the way.

Archive of the talk page added as an attachment at the bottom of this post.
 

Attachments

Last edited:
A Wikipedo suddenly thinks that racism is just, like, your opinion, man:
Support inclusion of event but do not use the word 'racist' to describe the tweets. Racist is an opinion which should not be done in Wikipedia's voice. I wager to include This version of the events as it is the most accurate according to WP:RS. It should be noted that the reliable sources do include examples of the tweets themselves. Per WP:biggrin:UEweight with all the of the WP:RS, this is a significant event for the subject and deserves a mention in the very least. We have to word it correctly to abide by WP:BLP of course, but it does not deserve to be excluded. Tutelary (talk) 15:22, 3 August 2018 (UTC)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roseanne_Barr
kpopoddfs.png

:thinking:
 
Peter Hitchens, borderline lolcow British "journalist" (and brother of the late Christopher Hitchens) who could start an argument in an empty room and enjoys trolling the Internet in his spare time (he has Google alerts for his name set up and leaves argumentative comments on random peoples' blog posts when they criticize him), was banned from editing wikipedia and is encouraging his followers to brigade the discussion about his ban there:

phwikipedia.png


The "satirical" edit in question, which he had added to the article on George Bell, and then edit-warred to repeatedly re-add when it kept getting reverted:

phwiki2.png


The summary another editor provided of the situation for a review of his ban:

phwiki3.png
 
Sarah Jeong's Wikipedia talk page is a firestorm at the moment. The leftist editors are trying hard to prevent any mention of racism and one has outright stated that you can't be racist against "so-called white people".

Some Quotes:
Someone posts a BBC article where the headline says that the tweets were racist (as a source that they should be considered racist). Then the BBC does what they're known for - capitulating to a leftist agenda - and changes the headline to say that the tweets were "inflammatory" rather than racist. Another Wikipedia editor then edits the person's post without their permission. Then said post edit is reverted by someone else and the guy that edited it is accused of Orwellianism:



an exceptional individual basically saying "many leftist news sources are saying that this leftist journalist isn't a racist and other leftists are defending her by saying it's satire, who knows whether this is something worth even adding to her page":


Apparently the tweets weren't racist (the numbered points are responses to someone saying that there are more than enough sources to move forward with editing her page to add the recent controversy):

Some people think you can be racist against white people, however, and think that Jeong's statements should be called racist, leading to this lit comment:

A Wikipedo suddenly thinks that racism is just, like, your opinion, man:

But someone isn't happy about that:
Someone responds by pointing out that the BBC backed down and changed their headline and even comments on how biased the BBC is:

Someone actually requests that her entire article be deleted because it would be the "kindest thing to do" as it might "ruin her life." So it looks like white knighting leftist thots is a credible reason to delete content on Wikipedia, now:

Apparently racist tweets that got international coverage aren't notable enough to be added to her article:
Someone submits a proposal for how the event should be summarised in her article, and it's laughably biased:
But another editor isn't happy:
Another leftist chimes in, saying that the article shouldn't mention the controversy, that her tweets cannot be said to be racist and that the whole thing is a conspiracy to get a journalist fired:Someone isn't happy that people are avoiding calling her a racist:
M'good sir, mayhaps you should consider that using scholarly language to describe the actions of m'lady is more befitting a station of our repute?:
Some ruffians respond:
It's all a "bad faith" trolling campaign orchestrated by the right-wing, just look at these completely unbiased news sources that prove this!:
All of those articles are biased as hell, but the CJR one is so laughably blatant that it beggars belief (the parts where it says James Wood's name followed by a quote from him are his tweets, the formatting didn't copy/paste properly):
Sarah Jeong, The New York Times, and the Gamergate School of Journalism
By David Uberti[/paste:font]AUGUST 3, 20181148 WORDS

ON THURSDAY, JUST A DAY after The New York Times announced Sarah Jeong as the newest member of its editorial board, she also joined the small but growing club of journalists who’ve been labeled as the real racists in certain corners of the internet.

Right-wing media outlets dredged up a series of inflammatory tweets Jeong sent between 2013 to 2015, in which she appeared to demonize white people. Creatures of the pro-Trump fever swamps—take actor James Woods, who’s amassed 1.64 million Twitter followers as a bruising defender of the president—employed it in their anti-media crusade. Fox News ran with it in primetime.



James Woods
Well, at least she’s an equal opportunity #racist regarding gender...



James Woods
So the @nytimes welcomes its newest member to the editorial board...


James Woods
And this #racist nitwit...

Such culture-war dustups are a fixture of digital life. But in the Trump era they’ve jumped from comment sections and Reddit threads to the highest levels of national politics and media, forcing the professional press to belatedly grapple with how to respond. The Times and The Verge both put out statements Thursday following the uproar among conservatives over Jeong’s tweets. Their divergent responses provided a clear snapshot of arguably the largest fault line within journalism today: the one between journalists who have grown up on the internet, and the media organizations who haven’t.

This split can make itself visible at times through political ideology and, in turn, opposing views on objectivity and detachment. But at its core it’s generational. And it divides journalists on issues ranging from how to respond to harassment campaigns to the way to frame coverage of President Donald Trump.

Jeong, for her part, offered contrition in a statement on Thursday. Female journalists are far more likely to be harassed than their male colleagues, and the 30-year-old Asian-American described her past tweets as “counter-trolling” in response to racist and sexist abuse she received while covering tech and digital culture. The Times itself echoed that sentiment in its own statement soon after:

Her journalism and the fact that she is a young Asian woman have made her a subject of frequent online harassment. For a period of time she responded to that harassment by imitating the rhetoric of her harassers. She sees now that this approach only served to feed the vitriol that we too often see on social media. She regrets it, and The Times does not condone it.

Jeong’s tweets were bad, in short, and the writer herself acknowledged “how hurtful these posts are out of context.” But they weren’t bad enough for the Times to un-hire her, leaving many on the right interpreting it as tacit approval of her supposed views. Andrew Sullivan seethed in New York magazine that the idea Jeong was merely mimicking her harassers is “the purest of bullshit.” Fox News’s Tucker Carlson—who’s carved out a large niche as the voice of aggrieved white men—took the occasion to characteristically flay all of mainstream media. “In point of fact,” he said, “[Jeong’s] views are commonplace in the American establishment, maybe universal.”

The notion that a few tweets from one young writer is evidence of an emerging front in institutional racism is proof enough that nothing can satisfy such arguments. It’s bad faith, as many digital journalists have come to call these criticisms, and it willfully ignores historical nuance and context. The Times didn’t bow to that pressure. But it did suggest that the critics had a point.

The Verge, meanwhile, put out a far more muscular response on Jeong’s behalf. A note from editorial leadership of the Vox-owned site targeted her critics rather than engaging with them:

Online trolls and harassers want us, the Times, and other newsrooms to waste our time by debating their malicious agenda. They take tweets and other statements out of context because they want to disrupt us and harm individual reporters. The strategy is to divide and conquer by forcing newsrooms to disavow their colleagues one at a time. This is not a good-faith conversation; it’s intimidation.

So we’re not going to fall for these disingenuous tactics. And it’s time other newsrooms learn to spot these hateful campaigns for what they are: attempts to discredit and undo the vital work of journalists who report on the most toxic communities on the internet.

This may appear hypocritical from the outside looking in; the mean tweets are OK this time because they came from someone on our team. But the reality is this aggressive stance is born from years under fire from critics who give journalists’ work the least generous interpretation possible in order to further their own interests. Does Fox News and the pro-Trump internet really want The New York Times to improve its internal culture and journalistic ethics? Or is painting “the media” as enemy of the people central to their business model and political mission?

Answering such questions requires value judgments about motive, which the Times and many other legacy outlets tend to avoid on issues ranging from Trump’s “lies” to criticism of their respective publications. The Verge pointed to its own experience on this front in its statement, comparing the way Jeong’s tweets were whipped into national news with Gamergate.

The 2014 harassment-campaign-masked-as-media-critique was a formative episode for many digital outlets and reporters, as critics weaponized media norms of civility and balance against journalism itself. Writers who spoke out about gaming’s overwhelming whiteness or masculinity—and who often happened to be women or people of color—were met with hard-edged grievance politics from critics who were overwhelmingly white and male. Their cries about ethics in gaming journalism largely amounted to concern trolling aimed to get the media to do as they wished. You may recognize such tactics by Trump and some of his supporters online today.

Whether the Times and other legacy outlets can employ some of the lessons of Gamergate without drastically reorienting their values—staying neutral without validating bad-faith arguments—remains an open question. The current political environment would seem to make it all but impossible for outlets that prize the appearance of impartiality.

For now, though, young journalists like Jeong, who have long been told to be bold and edgy, to build a brand, develop a voice, and explore their personal identities for $150 a pop, are exposed. As longtime Gawker blogger Alex Pareene pointed out Thursday, the implicit agreement made by such kid-writers “was that the web would feed us” in return for a new, digitally native style of journalism. But the digital media industry has also proven unable to sustain itself, and as political enemies close in, it turns out that these journalists might be the ones who get eaten.

Editor’s note: James Bennet, editorial-page editor of The New York Times, is a member of CJR’s Board of Overseers.
Spats continue and later down the talk page someone points out the double standards:







Persisting with wanting to add the anti-police statements top the article, a leftist responds by claiming that wanted to add the tweets to the wikipedia article is part of a harassment campaign, then disparages The Spectator as an unreliable source because it calls out leftist media bias:



Someone who edits Wikipedia still hasn't realized that it's propaganda:
People point out the double standards:
Someone seriously suggests adding a section claiming that there is a harassment campaign against her that is the basis for all the recent controversy and that it is possibly being orchestrated by the Russian government and that right-wing people participating in said "harassment" need to be named:
Disagreement:
They respond by quoting far-left media:

Really makes you think:Someone posts biased, leftist news sources to "prove" the the controversy is a right-wing conspiracy:A reasonable person wastes their time:There was an exchange where someone mentions talk she gave where she blamed white men for the world's problems, which contradicts the excuse that her racism was a response to randos on twitter. Completely unbiased Wikipedo responds by pretending to not understand why this would be relevant:
Wiki bias:

Someone points out that being a hateful twat on twitter was something she was known for, even ironically attacking the paper that she now works for:
Unfortunately, only "high-quality" sources (i.e. ones that are leftist) are acceptable (high-quality and unbiased sources means her current employer and herself (except when her own tweets make her look bad, then her own statements aren't to be treated as fact)):The response:


I don't blame anyone who can't be bothered reading all this bullshit, by the way.

Archive of the talk page added as an attachment at the bottom of this post.
Wikipedia desperately needs to be scrubbed clean, and fast.
 
Sarah Jeong's Wikipedia talk page is a firestorm at the moment. The leftist editors are trying hard to prevent any mention of racism and one has outright stated that you can't be racist against "so-called white people".

Some Quotes:
Someone posts a BBC article where the headline says that the tweets were racist (as a source that they should be considered racist). Then the BBC does what they're known for - capitulating to a leftist agenda - and changes the headline to say that the tweets were "inflammatory" rather than racist. Another Wikipedia editor then edits the person's post without their permission. Then said post edit is reverted by someone else and the guy that edited it is accused of Orwellianism:



an exceptional individual basically saying "many leftist news sources are saying that this leftist journalist isn't a racist and other leftists are defending her by saying it's satire, who knows whether this is something worth even adding to her page":


Apparently the tweets weren't racist (the numbered points are responses to someone saying that there are more than enough sources to move forward with editing her page to add the recent controversy):

Some people think you can be racist against white people, however, and think that Jeong's statements should be called racist, leading to this lit comment:

A Wikipedo suddenly thinks that racism is just, like, your opinion, man:

But someone isn't happy about that:
Someone responds by pointing out that the BBC backed down and changed their headline and even comments on how biased the BBC is:

Someone actually requests that her entire article be deleted because it would be the "kindest thing to do" as it might "ruin her life." So it looks like white knighting leftist thots is a credible reason to delete content on Wikipedia, now:

Apparently racist tweets that got international coverage aren't notable enough to be added to her article:
Someone submits a proposal for how the event should be summarised in her article, and it's laughably biased:
But another editor isn't happy:
Another leftist chimes in, saying that the article shouldn't mention the controversy, that her tweets cannot be said to be racist and that the whole thing is a conspiracy to get a journalist fired:Someone isn't happy that people are avoiding calling her a racist:
M'good sir, mayhaps you should consider that using scholarly language to describe the actions of m'lady is more befitting a station of our repute?:
Some ruffians respond:
It's all a "bad faith" trolling campaign orchestrated by the right-wing, just look at these completely unbiased news sources that prove this!:
All of those articles are biased as hell, but the CJR one is so laughably blatant that it beggars belief (the parts where it says James Wood's name followed by a quote from him are his tweets, the formatting didn't copy/paste properly):
Sarah Jeong, The New York Times, and the Gamergate School of Journalism
By David Uberti[/paste:font]AUGUST 3, 20181148 WORDS

ON THURSDAY, JUST A DAY after The New York Times announced Sarah Jeong as the newest member of its editorial board, she also joined the small but growing club of journalists who’ve been labeled as the real racists in certain corners of the internet.

Right-wing media outlets dredged up a series of inflammatory tweets Jeong sent between 2013 to 2015, in which she appeared to demonize white people. Creatures of the pro-Trump fever swamps—take actor James Woods, who’s amassed 1.64 million Twitter followers as a bruising defender of the president—employed it in their anti-media crusade. Fox News ran with it in primetime.



James Woods
Well, at least she’s an equal opportunity #racist regarding gender...



James Woods
So the @nytimes welcomes its newest member to the editorial board...


James Woods
And this #racist nitwit...

Such culture-war dustups are a fixture of digital life. But in the Trump era they’ve jumped from comment sections and Reddit threads to the highest levels of national politics and media, forcing the professional press to belatedly grapple with how to respond. The Times and The Verge both put out statements Thursday following the uproar among conservatives over Jeong’s tweets. Their divergent responses provided a clear snapshot of arguably the largest fault line within journalism today: the one between journalists who have grown up on the internet, and the media organizations who haven’t.

This split can make itself visible at times through political ideology and, in turn, opposing views on objectivity and detachment. But at its core it’s generational. And it divides journalists on issues ranging from how to respond to harassment campaigns to the way to frame coverage of President Donald Trump.

Jeong, for her part, offered contrition in a statement on Thursday. Female journalists are far more likely to be harassed than their male colleagues, and the 30-year-old Asian-American described her past tweets as “counter-trolling” in response to racist and sexist abuse she received while covering tech and digital culture. The Times itself echoed that sentiment in its own statement soon after:

Her journalism and the fact that she is a young Asian woman have made her a subject of frequent online harassment. For a period of time she responded to that harassment by imitating the rhetoric of her harassers. She sees now that this approach only served to feed the vitriol that we too often see on social media. She regrets it, and The Times does not condone it.

Jeong’s tweets were bad, in short, and the writer herself acknowledged “how hurtful these posts are out of context.” But they weren’t bad enough for the Times to un-hire her, leaving many on the right interpreting it as tacit approval of her supposed views. Andrew Sullivan seethed in New York magazine that the idea Jeong was merely mimicking her harassers is “the purest of bullshit.” Fox News’s Tucker Carlson—who’s carved out a large niche as the voice of aggrieved white men—took the occasion to characteristically flay all of mainstream media. “In point of fact,” he said, “[Jeong’s] views are commonplace in the American establishment, maybe universal.”

The notion that a few tweets from one young writer is evidence of an emerging front in institutional racism is proof enough that nothing can satisfy such arguments. It’s bad faith, as many digital journalists have come to call these criticisms, and it willfully ignores historical nuance and context. The Times didn’t bow to that pressure. But it did suggest that the critics had a point.

The Verge, meanwhile, put out a far more muscular response on Jeong’s behalf. A note from editorial leadership of the Vox-owned site targeted her critics rather than engaging with them:

Online trolls and harassers want us, the Times, and other newsrooms to waste our time by debating their malicious agenda. They take tweets and other statements out of context because they want to disrupt us and harm individual reporters. The strategy is to divide and conquer by forcing newsrooms to disavow their colleagues one at a time. This is not a good-faith conversation; it’s intimidation.

So we’re not going to fall for these disingenuous tactics. And it’s time other newsrooms learn to spot these hateful campaigns for what they are: attempts to discredit and undo the vital work of journalists who report on the most toxic communities on the internet.

This may appear hypocritical from the outside looking in; the mean tweets are OK this time because they came from someone on our team. But the reality is this aggressive stance is born from years under fire from critics who give journalists’ work the least generous interpretation possible in order to further their own interests. Does Fox News and the pro-Trump internet really want The New York Times to improve its internal culture and journalistic ethics? Or is painting “the media” as enemy of the people central to their business model and political mission?

Answering such questions requires value judgments about motive, which the Times and many other legacy outlets tend to avoid on issues ranging from Trump’s “lies” to criticism of their respective publications. The Verge pointed to its own experience on this front in its statement, comparing the way Jeong’s tweets were whipped into national news with Gamergate.

The 2014 harassment-campaign-masked-as-media-critique was a formative episode for many digital outlets and reporters, as critics weaponized media norms of civility and balance against journalism itself. Writers who spoke out about gaming’s overwhelming whiteness or masculinity—and who often happened to be women or people of color—were met with hard-edged grievance politics from critics who were overwhelmingly white and male. Their cries about ethics in gaming journalism largely amounted to concern trolling aimed to get the media to do as they wished. You may recognize such tactics by Trump and some of his supporters online today.

Whether the Times and other legacy outlets can employ some of the lessons of Gamergate without drastically reorienting their values—staying neutral without validating bad-faith arguments—remains an open question. The current political environment would seem to make it all but impossible for outlets that prize the appearance of impartiality.

For now, though, young journalists like Jeong, who have long been told to be bold and edgy, to build a brand, develop a voice, and explore their personal identities for $150 a pop, are exposed. As longtime Gawker blogger Alex Pareene pointed out Thursday, the implicit agreement made by such kid-writers “was that the web would feed us” in return for a new, digitally native style of journalism. But the digital media industry has also proven unable to sustain itself, and as political enemies close in, it turns out that these journalists might be the ones who get eaten.

Editor’s note: James Bennet, editorial-page editor of The New York Times, is a member of CJR’s Board of Overseers.
Spats continue and later down the talk page someone points out the double standards:







Persisting with wanting to add the anti-police statements top the article, a leftist responds by claiming that wanted to add the tweets to the wikipedia article is part of a harassment campaign, then disparages The Spectator as an unreliable source because it calls out leftist media bias:



Someone who edits Wikipedia still hasn't realized that it's propaganda:
People point out the double standards:
Someone seriously suggests adding a section claiming that there is a harassment campaign against her that is the basis for all the recent controversy and that it is possibly being orchestrated by the Russian government and that right-wing people participating in said "harassment" need to be named:
Disagreement:
They respond by quoting far-left media:

Really makes you think:Someone posts biased, leftist news sources to "prove" the the controversy is a right-wing conspiracy:A reasonable person wastes their time:There was an exchange where someone mentions a talk she gave where she blamed white men for the world's problems, which contradicts the excuse that her racism was a response to randos on twitter. Completely unbiased Wikipedo responds by pretending to not understand why this would be relevant:
Wiki bias:

Someone points out that being a hateful twat on twitter was something she was known for, even ironically attacking the paper that she now works for:
Unfortunately, only "high-quality" sources (i.e. ones that are leftist) are acceptable (high-quality and unbiased sources means her current employer and herself (except when her own tweets make her look bad, then her own statements aren't to be treated as fact)):The response:


I don't blame anyone who can't be bothered reading all this bullshit, by the way.

Archive of the talk page added as an attachment at the bottom of this post.
The sheer length of this post re-confirms that Wikipedia autists are the most prolific autists anywhere
 
Wikipedia desperately needs to be scrubbed clean, and fast.

It's amazing that Wikipedia is able to function as a decent resource at all given the insanity of the bureaucracy behind the scenes. Wikipedia bureaucracy rivals that of the US government, except it's far more corrupt.

Everything related to current politics should be fucking deleted from Wikipedia tbh. Some of these articles wouldn't look out of place in RationalWiki. I didn't knew "unbiased information" meant "information with clear left-wing bias taken from clearly biased sources". You learn something new everyday.

Take a shot every time you see "WP:RS" in these discussions.
 
Everything related to current politics should be fucking deleted from Wikipedia tbh. Some of these articles wouldn't look out of place in RationalWiki. I didn't knew "unbiased information" meant "information with clear left-wing bias taken from clearly biased sources". You learn something new everyday.
It really makes you think about what Wikipedia as a whole considers to be an "authoritative" or "trustworthy" news source, because anyone seriously linking
as "proof" clearly does not know what those words mean individually.
 
Last edited:
Everything related to current politics should be fucking deleted from Wikipedia tbh. Some of these articles wouldn't look out of place in RationalWiki. I didn't knew "unbiased information" meant "information with clear left-wing bias taken from clearly biased sources". You learn something new everyday.
Whenever they have to put in an opinion in defence of something right-wing, they always make it clear it’s from a “conservative outlet”, but you can bet when they publish reams of stuff in defence of something left-wing they won’t mark it out as a leftist or liberal outlet.
 
Peter Hitchens has now, unsurprisingly, taken his crusade against Wikipedia to his Mail on Sunday column. Because he always covers the most important issues of the day.

phtwitter.png


"It is a bit like the aftermath of an unpleasant dream. In the world of Wikipedia I have been arrested, penalised and silenced without trial, denied any freedom to defend myself before any independent or unprejudiced tribunal, and told I can only have my freedom back if I publicly abase myself before the arbitrary authorities. Actually, ahem, I’m not guilty until I have been ruled to be so by a unanimous independent jury of my peers, and if they treat me as guilty without due process, they can take a flying leap."

lol, he thinks there should be jury trials and guilt beyond a reasonable doubt should need to be proved before people are banned from websites.

http://hitchensblog.mailonsunday.co.uk/2018/08/goodbye-wikipedia-and-thanks-for-all-the-laughs.html

https://archive.is/7bqe5

I still think Wikipedia is, on balance, a good thing. This is even though its mysterious ruling council of Wikicrats have now banned me from taking any part in editing it. It is despite the fact that the said Wikicrats then gagged and muzzled me, when I said that this action should not be taken until after a fair trial, rather than before any kind of trial.

It is a bit like the aftermath of an unpleasant dream. In the world of Wikipedia I have been arrested, penalised and silenced without trial, denied any freedom to defend myself before any independent or unprejudiced tribunal, and told I can only have my freedom back if I publicly abase myself before the arbitrary authorities. Actually, ahem, I’m not guilty until I have been ruled to be so by a unanimous independent jury of my peers, and if they treat me as guilty without due process, they can take a flying leap. So they can whistle for the grovel they want, till the end of time. There is only ever one answer to such Kangaroo Tribunals. So Goodbye Wikipedia, at least from the editing point of view But it is a mild taste of what it must be like, in reality, to face obdurate authority of this kind, nasty and dispiriting. It dims the sunshine, and nags at the mind.

Of course, not being able to contribute to areas of knowledge where you have expertise is annoying. But fall foul of the strange, nameless elite which actually runs Wikipedia, and it is like Kafka’s ‘The Trial’ without the jokes. My Kangaroo Trial grinds on, and I confidently expect shortly to be banned from Wikipedia until I kowtow to them, which means ( see above) for the rest of my life.

Is this a great loss? It is a loss, for certain. Most of you will probably never have bothered, but some years ago I thought it would be interesting and rewarding to sign up as what Wikipedia rather grandly calls an ‘editor’. You can easily create an identity and a sign-on – mine is ‘Clockback’, as in ‘Putting the Clock Back’ and is meant to be a mild self-depreciating joke, though few people get it. When, like me, you have no sense of humour, it is hard to work out what might amuse other people.

The first thing I learned from this is that any Wikipedia entry about any live issue which is even mildly controversial cannot be trusted. It is at best a useful starting point from which to find research sources, but often not even that. I made the mistake of challenging the consensus view on one or two such subjects, and introducing into their entries mentions of controversies which they did not refer to. Within minutes, my changes had been wiped out by militant guardians, who plainly had more numbers and more time on their side than I could ever hope to do. Had I had a hundred allies, all with limitless time, it might have been possible to change things. Otherwise not. This sort of intimidation works, and is diligently done by propagandists, because Wikipedia is still taken more seriously than it should be by innocent readers.

Oddly, you can face the same problem in what appear to be wholly uncontentious areas. I once attempted to add a short reference to what I thought of as an important book, which had not been given much space, on the Wikipedia page about a favourite author. Again, my change was wiped out within minutes by a furious guardian, who seemed to think that she, and nobody else, should control the entry. Life’s too short to qyarrel with people like this.

My one significant success has been to alter the Wikipedia entry for the ‘Education Policy Institute’ so that the alert reader will realise that this body is not a wholly disinterested research organisation, but has deep connections with the Liberal Democrat party, and with the ‘Academy’ movement.



Because I can see that some people might be worried by this fact, and are entitled to know what I am up to, I have also made clear from the start that I am Peter Hitchens, yes, that one, and even went through a strange procedure to confirm this. Had I not done so, and had I instead hidden my identity, perhaps I would have been spared the events of the past week. So much for honesty being the best policy.

I thought this was especially important, as I have sometimes made changes in the entry about me and the one about my late brother and in a few others where I have an openly-declared interest. In the family ones, I have kept myself pretty strictly to correcting factual errors, which in some cases nobody else could possibly do. Who else knows when I joined and left the International Socialists? Who else would be troubled by, and put right, a foolish mistake about my late father’s naval career? Who else recalls the day I broke into a government fall-out shelter in Cambridge, more than 50 years ago? But then again, why let a silly mistake survive, where it might be believed, cited and repeated? One day it could just be important.

Yet by doing so I have probably been breaking some of Wikipedia’s myriad little rules about neutrality and conflicts of interest. Well, so what? These rules are blunt instruments, more or less assuming universal bad faith. They remind me of the extraordinary cobweb of rules about sexual contact devised by Antioch College, Ohio , see https://www.nytimes.com/2018/02/24/style/antioch-college-sexual-offense-prevention-policy.html

These rules it seems to me, were decided on the assumption that the male sex is predatory and untrustworthy.

Likewise, Wikipedia’s rules seem designed to deal with people who, offered the opportunity to wield secret influence in their favour, will do so. They also assume that those editors involved entirely lack the normal human emotions, such as grouchiness, and are never impatient, let alone sarcastic or satirical. Actually, let me qualify this. You can do these things if you’re more or less on the side of conventional wisdom and don’t work for the Mail on Sunday. My opponent on the Bishop George Bell’ entry (the source of all my troubles) is extraordinarily rude without provocation, calling me a ‘loudmouth’, describing my articles as ‘rants’, dismissing the highly distinguished, disinterested and multi-party group of people who seek basic due process for the late Bishop Bell as a ‘fan club’ and claiming wrongly that they are ‘right-wing’ in the clear belief that this would be a bad thing if so, (so simultaneously disclosing his own partiality and his ignorance of the subject). Nothing whatever happens to him for this behaviour. Indeed, he has a ‘Platinum medal’ for his services to Wikipedia.

Wikipedia’s rules were made to prevent secret distortion and lying, and manipulation, not to prevent someone like me openly and transparently correcting errors, even if I do sometimes shout and stamp a bit, to get attention.

In this openness, I am highly unusual. Pseudonyms are actively encouraged on Wikipedia, for reasons I can guess at but don’t really understand. Most Wikipedia ‘editors’ have names like ‘Woof’ or ‘3ZjY8Splat!’ . And the people who have adopted these interplanetary names also understand Wikipedia’s cobwebbed maze of rules (like an arcane board game invented by someone who enjoys algebra) about how exactly to appeal and who to appeal to in case of difficulty. I confess I never have done. Sometimes I have been able to hunt help down, using parts of the keyboard I had never even noticed before. What *is* a ‘tylde’? (It’s all right, I know now). Sometimes, a week later, trying to repeat the feat, I have lost my way doing so, and ended up going round in electronic circles. You try, if you think it is either easy, or easy to learn.

As so often, in computer world, those who *are* skilled in it completely fail to understand how baffling it is for those who are not. In my experience the best way to get help is to make a small but definite noise, at which point a helpful person often descends from the sky and fixes the problem.

I agree this is not ideal, but nobody ever gets hurt and no lies get told in this process, whereas problems often do get fixed.

But it has now got me into dreadful trouble, as you can see here

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard#Block_review_for_Clockback

(scroll down to ‘Block review for Clockback)

And here

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Clockback

(Scroll down to ‘Comment on the block’)

The really funny bit is that, on this occasion, I finally did discover which button to press, and appealed for help from an ‘administrator’, who immediately descended from on high, studied the issue in depth for what must have been all of 90 seconds, and thereupon blocked me indefinitely from the whole Wikipedia site (except from my own small talk page, from which I have also now been banned as well, for refusing to kowtow).


I appealed about this: ‘I am in dispute with another editor who repeatedly reverts legitimate changes in the entry and will not engage in discussion’

This administrator ruled ‘I have blocked Clockback based on a review of contributions, which skew heavily towards highly biased

Very quickly, the fact that I am a newspaper columnist (and not for ‘The Guardian’) entered into the discussion.

‘Note also that Clockback is Peter Hitchens [152] , who writes for The Mail on Sunday and is involved in the topic itself.’

To which my blocker responded : ‘Should have guessed. If only his brother were here instead.’

After that, my entire Wikipedia record, stretching back more than ten years, was combed for offences against the rules.

I have a record of the whole exchange, in which the significance of my connection with the MoS is explored at length, but it is pretty dull, and I have edited it severely to remove identifiers.

After that, my entire Wikipedia record, stretching back more than ten years, was combed for offences against the rules. The Wikigulag looms.

Today I sneaked a final defence on to the trial page, where it remained for all of ten seconds before being wiped. It ran as follows: ‘Hullo everybody, this is Peter Hitchens (in real life!), not logged in as Clockback as I would then be censored and muzzled. Administrators have my e-mail address, thanks to the appeals they have rejected on it, and are invited to contact me if they wish to check the authenticity and provenance of this contribution. I would just like to ask all those involved in this decision to take a long, slow breath and look at what they have done. Most fundamentally, they have responded to a plea for help with a kick in the teeth. When I posted a request for assistance in a dispute with another editor, which had lasted two years and involved the other editor being unpleasantly rude, openly biased on the issue under discussion, and unresponsive on the talk page, on several occasions, the person who intervened (who could not possibly, in the time, have made a just or thorough examination of the matter) immediately blocked me, and to rub the matter in, blocked me indefinitely. This is plainly unjust and no free person would accept it or be willing to abase himself to get it lifted. If you wish to discuss this matter with me, treat me fairly. If (as seems to be the case in some comments) you take a special pleasure in blocking a Mail on Sunday columnist, feel free. If that is your idea of a good time, then I can only say that we're all different. But do not pretend you are doing this in pursuit of the truth. The fact remains that my much-frowned-on edits, though satirical and not intended to stand (I made their purpose plain on the talk page), were entirely factual, an undeniable truth which I have yet to get any administrator or editor to notice, acknowledge or address. Fact One: The police, in England, have precisely no statutory role in the investigation of crimes allegedly committed by the dead; Fact Two: it is a legal absurdity for any English tribunal to say it has found no reason to doubt an allegation. Reason to doubt is actively embodied in the principle of presumption of innocence, is the basis of jury trial and is embedded in both civil and criminal procedure. If you are ready to listen, then I'm ready to defend myself. If I am treated with fairness, an open mind and civility, you will find I respond in the same way. If I am muzzled and silenced, then I just remember how my English ancestors would have responded to such treatment. Please do not delete this. I have of course kept a copy.’

And now we come to the issue itself, which I must now leave it to others to sort out. I should at this stage point out that some editors and administrators on Wikipedia have nobly come to my defence. I am very grateful to them but they have been met with quite a lot of derision and hostility for simply abiding by the laws of fairness. Some - but not all of them - believe I should have ‘helped myself’ by grovelling, but I cannot pretend to believe that I have done anything wrong.

The dispute is about the description of controversy about the late Bishop George Bell. My view is this. whatever anyone may have believed about this in the past (and the C of E made great efforts to persuade people that they had serious evidence against Bishop Bell when they did not), the charges were dealt a devastating blow (the lovely old English word ‘Whirret’ seems right in the circumstances) by the report of Lord Carlile QC, which you may read in full here.

https://www.churchofengland.org/sites/default/files/2017-12/Bishop George Bell - The Independent Review.pdf

Amazingly, until I put it there last week, the Wikipedia entry on the George Bell case did not even contain a direct link to this report.

Now, Lord Carlile was specifically debarred from giving any opinion on the charges against George Bell in his conclusions. Archbishop Welby put that in the terms of reference.

But that did not stop him giving an opinion elsewhere in the document. And lo:

Paragraph 171: 'Had the evidence my review has obtained without any particular difficulty (see section[H] below) been available to the Church and the CPS, I doubt that the test for a prosecution would have been passed. Had a prosecution been brought on the basis of that evidence, founded upon my experience and observations I judge the prospect of a successful prosecution as low. I would have expected experienced criminal counsel to have advised accordingly.’

Lord Carlile must be one of the most experienced lawyers of his generation. Coming from him, this judgement is quite devastating, and only people who don't understand English legal understatement could miss its import. I have known this since Christmas and waited for other Wikipedia editors, unburdened by being me, to discover it and include it, because I am aware of preposterous prejudices against anyone with knowledge of the matter, daring to tinker with the sacred Wikipedia.

Yet the Wikipedia version, while giving a wholly inadequate account of the Carlile Report, *still* contains tendentious rubbish, dating from the C of E’s original slippery attempt to smear Bishop Bell in the eyes of public and media, driven by the fact that it wasn’t anything like as sure of his guilt as it was claiming to be.

Most especially is the redundant, outdated, and discredited section about how the police had said they had enough evidence to arrest George Bell, had he not been dead for some decades. To my own direct and painful personal knowledge, this inaccurate claim poisoned the minds of many people, often highly educated ones, especially in the media, against George Bell. It created a great solidified wall of slime, which had to be cleared out of the way before the case could be properly debated. It should never have been said. Now that it is discredited, it has no place in a tightly-edited and concise account of the case *unless* it is qualified by a strong rebuttal. The questionable, indeed legally needless and ultra vires, involvement of the police should certainly not be the opening stage of the story.

This claim that Bell would have been arrested was clearly stated by Carlile to be wrong in law in his paragraph 167, which everyone interested in the case should read to the end, especially the bit about the C of E taking ‘ an exaggerated view’ of the use of the word ‘arrest’

The police have also admitted to me, in their formal response to a complaint I made to them on behalf of GB’s niece, that the C of E diocese persuaded them to get involved. Detective Superintendent J.D. Graves wrote :

‘… the Diocese of Chichester notified Sussex Police that they planned to release a statement to the media. It was never our intention to be proactive (my emphasis); in other words, there was no intention to release a police statement about the alleged criminality of Bishop Bell (my emphasis). However, we were asked by the Diocese to make a statement as they had decided to make this information public and so we provided them with a statement for inclusion in their press release on the basis that once the Diocese published their statement a natural consequence would be a media request to the police for comment’.

It later repeats ‘the press release was driven by the Diocese’.



This was an extraordinary admission, though of course one that could have been foreseen by any informed person, since the Police in England have absolutely no statutory role in the investigation of criminal allegations against the dead, who cannot, in English law, be prosecuted. Anyway, since ‘Carol’ first made her claim in 1995 (as Carlile records) her concern has always been to make a civil claim against the C of E, not a criminal charge against Bishop Bell.

As for the stuff about some secret tribunal ‘finding no reason’ to doubt the claims against George bell, that was just a confession of legal incompetence. The presumption of innocence is always a reason to doubt any charge. And there was a good deal more, as any reader of the long paragraph 178 shows.

That’s what it was all about. But at the end of it, the Wikipedia account is still hopelessly biased against the truth. Perhaps someone else unburdened by being me, is prepared to become as knowledgeable as I am about the case, and set the matter right. If they do, I warn them not to make any jokes.

Since he's a conservative commentator and the left-leaning bias of Wikipedia is rather well known and politics have been injected into this ban, and since I've provided Hitchens' take here, I should mention:

-Almost all of PH's edits over the past 10 years have been to articles he has a direct and obvious conflict of interest with (the articles about himself, his brother, books he has authored, political issues he frequently writes and debates about, etc).
-He basically used Wikipedia as a personal soapbox instead of trying to help build an encyclopedia.
-He straight up vandalized an article and got in an edit war to repeatedly reinsert his vandalism.
-He never acknowledged any wrongdoing (and rather self-righteously masturbated about how the admins there were authoritarians persecuting him).
-He directed his Twitter and Facebook followers to brigade the discussion about whether he should be unbanned.

I hate to agree with the officious dorks who run Wikipedia, but user bans from websites rarely get more justifiable than this.
 
lol, he thinks there should be jury trials and guilt beyond a reasonable doubt should need to be proved before people are banned from websites.

Wikipedia kind of invites the argument by having a fake internal kangaroo court allegedly based on rules, when the only real rules is whatever autists are currently at the top of the wiki pecking order get to do whatever they want to whoever they want.

Most people aren't so privileged they have their own newspaper column to fire back at these spergs, though.

I hate to agree with the officious dorks who run Wikipedia, but user bans from websites rarely get more justifiable than this.

So he's a dumber, more annoying version of his brother?
 
So he's a dumber, more annoying version of his brother?

Yes, and oddly he's a devout Christian (who wrote a book called "The Rage Against God" as a counterpoint to Christopher's "God is Not Great") and he also has none of his brother's sense of humour.

I find him unintentionally hilarious and, in the past, briefly considered creating a lolcow thread on him, but felt I was probably in a small minority finding him funny. Among other things, at his brother's funeral Stephen Fry was in attendance (having been a friend of Christopher's), and Fry approached him and tried to introduce himself and make small talk, Peter was a dick and brushed him off (even by his own account he was rude to Fry for no reason other than he hated Fry's acting), Fry published a tweet about how he was shocked at what an asshole Peter was given how awesome Christopher had been (he later admitted he was drunk and he shouldn't have written the tweet), and Peter used his column to rant sanctimoniously about how Fry was a horrible person who tweeted an attack against him at his brother's funeral. lol
 
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Christina Hoff Sommers is now criticising Wikipedia's bias regarding the Sarah Jeong article:

View attachment 513343

The talk page she referenced has a discussion of how to word the controversy because there was an edit war and it got resolved. It's the same for any living person.

There's a something demented in her Tweet, but it's not Wiki.
 
The talk page she referenced has a discussion of how to word the controversy because there was an edit war and it got resolved. It's the same for any living person.

There's a something demented in her Tweet, but it's not Wiki.

Why is she even notable? Why even have an article about some nobody and exclude the only notable thing about her?
 
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