Overwatch

[Monsieur Guillotine]

This is the worst sentence uttered by a mortal soy boy.

Generally most people finish reading a post before they react to shit.

 

[Y2K Baby]

Generally most

Generally you should shut the fuck up.

 

[Monsieur Guillotine]

Generally you should shut the fuck up.

Generally in most cases most people would oftentimes agree that no u

 

[Bagronkleton]

Stopped playing it for a good while up until the recent Hammond update and tried Mystery Heroes mode for the fun of it and what do you know? I've had more fun playing the game of eliminating heroes to prevent the other team from getting an edge instead of slap 'n tickle on the point. Taking players out of their comfort zone by forcing them to adapt to an ever changing roster puts an entirely different feel to the game.

Have had more intense fights in that mode than anything else in Overwatch and for the most part the folk playing Mystery Heroes tend to be more laid back and appreciative of good matches even if they're on the losing side. Not always, but most of the time.

 

[Medicated]

wait did they just make another character gay?

 

[Secret Asshole]

Overwatch is gay, so its only logical

 

[Tanner Glass]

I remember when I first tried Overwatch. Coming from TF2, I really liked the infinite ammo system and the short respawn times. Even if I died, I was back in the action in seconds. Games were quick and all the characters seemed fun. I loved their unique personalities and play styles. I loved how crisp the game looked. I only played a day or 2 of the open beta, but I was hooked.

After a while, I started to lose interest. I noticed I wasn't having as much fun. Some of the things I realized over time:

Spoiler

- It's very easy to die in Overwatch. Almost everything kills you in 1 or 2 hits. It seems like in order to have any impact at all, you have to tryhard. Eventually games started to feel super tense, and I found myself being quick to frustration and ragequitting.

- The low respawn times don't make the game as fun as I initially thought. It feels a lot shorter when you're used to the respawn times in other games, but eventually you just get used to it and the thrill is gone. It's then that you realize how short your opponents' respawn times are, which brings me to my next point...

- Kills don't feel impactful. When your enemy is alive again in less than 10 seconds, you don't feel the same satisfaction that you would if respawn times were longer. Instead, it feels like you only get a couple seconds before the enemy is up your ass again. This, at least in my case, adds to the tension I mentioned earlier.

- No ammo means either unstoppable forces or immovable objects. At first, not having to worry about ammo makes the game feel faster and more about the action. Sooner or later, however, you start to realize why ammo management is actually a good thing in games like these. Without it, teams can just spam projectiles forever. You can't just wait for someone to be out of ammo and then push when they retreat because it's never going to happen. The only strategy is to out-tryhard the enemy or just wait for an ult. There's also nothing less fun than dealing with a good Pharah/Mercy combo that just spams rockets at you forever.

- Barriers are not fun. Adding to the grief of infinite ammo, there are also fucking barriers everywhere. Whether you're pushing or defending, be prepared to shoot through 3 layers of shields before you get to do anything to the enemy team. When Reinhardt was the only one with a decent barrier (and Winston's was still good for not much more than a condom for D.Va ult), it was a lot more fun and more rewarding because he had to aim the shit. Now we have Reinhardt shield, a better Winston barrier, Orisa barriers that are always up unless an ult hits them, Symmetra's shield (whatever the fuck it is now, they keep changing that shit), and even a goddamn support melee whatever with a personal shield. It wouldn't be as bad if all shields were ultimates or objective-based somehow, but the fact that they are regular abilities slows the game to a crawl, unless you're willing to - that's right, you guessed it - go full tryhard.

- Ults decide games more than good plays do. With all of the above being the case, what wins games is usually a coordinated set of Q presses. Most offensive ults in the game are one-shots, which means the team on the receiving end has to change their strat in the heat of the moment just to not die. With how easy it is to create Mexican standoffs in this game, it often feels like this is the only way to move the game forward. They doesn't even feel as good as getting a multi-kill through regular gameplay, which on either side would be impressive. For both teams, it's just kind of like "oh", and that's that.

- When you have to tryhard, there are far more tryhards. A symptom of having to tryhard in order to win is that a lot more players become quicker to getting salty, throwing, flaming, etc. It's a very harsh contrast when you compare how positive and jovial all the characters are, and how bright and shiny everything around you is. Sure, every game with a competitive aspect has flamers and tryhards, but it actually feels like this game has more of that than other games do. Overwatch is called a MOBA by certain people, and sometimes it feels that way with how wound up people are when they enter your game. The only real way around this is to find 5 other good friends who are not likely to get at each other's throats, but don't count on that.

A couple of months ago I went back to TF2, and it just felt so good by comparison. I could just jump into a community server and fuck around for 15 minutes and it was chill as fuck. Maybe I'm just getting old, but I can't see myself going tryhard in order to have fun. As such, I don't think I'll ever return to Overwatch. The new hero is a fuckin' hamster so I'm probably not gonna miss much.

If we're comparing TF2 to Overwatch (and you're spot on with those assessments) - here's a few more.

- Match Timing. All overwatch matches will end within 10 minutes. Frequently they're shorter than that (a team can get rolled in 3 minutes via offence, or can get frozen out in 5 by defense). This is obviously geared towards "esports" and distills each match into a few minor skirmishes and typically two "ult battles". While some TF2 modes have a similar final timer (attack/defend, payload) most modes can be kept going for a long time in a single match. (Example - in Capture Points, 5 minutes is added to the clock every time a point changes hands. If the teams keep gaining and losing control of a point - the game will not end until a team wins or no points change hands in 5 minutes.) It can get messy but it's a lot of fun to have some matches run long like this.

- Character Depth. Overwatch has more characters than TF2 but a much lower skill ceiling because each Overwatch character has a much smaller ability pool than their TF2 counterparts. Most instances where an Overwatch character has a TF2 ability, it's either implemented incorrectly, partially implemented, or meaningless. For example, in Overwatch you would need three characters to match the TF2 Engy (Torbjorn for the Turret, Symettra for the Teleporter, Lucio for the AoE healing) and even then they're simpler versions of those abilities (Torbjorn's Turret repairs, deployes, and upgrades for free and super fast. Symettra's teleporter is free and only the exit needs to be deployed).

- Character Weakness. Overwatch has a design around character weaknesses and counters; such as Pharrah being weak to Widowmaker because of her slow flying speed and Widowmaker being weaker to Genji because of his speed and ability to deflect bullets. Overwatch is designed around players switching characters to overcome counters as opposed to overcoming players through skilled play. While TF2 does have some class interactions, no class is explicitly weak to another class and most class matchups lead to some interesting combat guided by player skill (Pyro v Spy, Spy v Engy, Soldier v Heavy come to mind) as opposed to what character you happened to be on.

- No "Free" Ultimates - While some abilities resemble ultimates in TF2; like the Medic's Ubercharge or the Soldier's Buff Banner, none of them charge for free (Medic's charge bar fills only when healing and fills faster with smart healing whereas the Soldier's buff banner fills on damaging enemies). Additionally, in TF2 when a person is killed they lose all charge so no ultimate is ever guaranteed. If you are able to continuously kill a medic they will struggle to push into your defenses with an Ubercharge, which allows "assassin" classes such as Spy/Sniper to contribute to a defense.

 

[Snake of Diamond]

If we're comparing TF2 to Overwatch (and you're spot on with those assessments) - here's a few more.

- Match Timing. All overwatch matches will end within 10 minutes. Frequently they're shorter than that (a team can get rolled in 3 minutes via offence, or can get frozen out in 5 by defense). This is obviously geared towards "esports" and distills each match into a few minor skirmishes and typically two "ult battles". While some TF2 modes have a similar final timer (attack/defend, payload) most modes can be kept going for a long time in a single match. (Example - in Capture Points, 5 minutes is added to the clock every time a point changes hands. If the teams keep gaining and losing control of a point - the game will not end until a team wins or no points change hands in 5 minutes.) It can get messy but it's a lot of fun to have some matches run long like this.

- Character Depth. Overwatch has more characters than TF2 but a much lower skill ceiling because each Overwatch character has a much smaller ability pool than their TF2 counterparts. Most instances where an Overwatch character has a TF2 ability, it's either implemented incorrectly, partially implemented, or meaningless. For example, in Overwatch you would need three characters to match the TF2 Engy (Torbjorn for the Turret, Symettra for the Teleporter, Lucio for the AoE healing) and even then they're simpler versions of those abilities (Torbjorn's Turret repairs, deployes, and upgrades for free and super fast. Symettra's teleporter is free and only the exit needs to be deployed).

- Character Weakness. Overwatch has a design around character weaknesses and counters; such as Pharrah being weak to Widowmaker because of her slow flying speed and Widowmaker being weaker to Genji because of his speed and ability to deflect bullets. Overwatch is designed around players switching characters to overcome counters as opposed to overcoming players through skilled play. While TF2 does have some class interactions, no class is explicitly weak to another class and most class matchups lead to some interesting combat guided by player skill (Pyro v Spy, Spy v Engy, Soldier v Heavy come to mind) as opposed to what character you happened to be on.

- No "Free" Ultimates - While some abilities resemble ultimates in TF2; like the Medic's Ubercharge or the Soldier's Buff Banner, none of them charge for free (Medic's charge bar fills only when healing and fills faster with smart healing whereas the Soldier's buff banner fills on damaging enemies). Additionally, in TF2 when a person is killed they lose all charge so no ultimate is ever guaranteed. If you are able to continuously kill a medic they will struggle to push into your defenses with an Ubercharge, which allows "assassin" classes such as Spy/Sniper to contribute to a defense.

I think that the biggest thing between the two games is that TF2 is heavily driven by the community while OW is the illusion of community streamlined or gas lit by the creators. TF2 offers players the tools to make what they want with the workshop while OW's game browser feels like a bag level editors where you mess around with sliders again the illusion of creation which isn't creation. But that's the thing as OW was also gearing itself with the competitive seen (in my opinion way too early in the game's life) so the game needs to be watered down more and more and more. Fore the hell of it I managed to snag some time for a free weekend and I was personally surprised to see how the game changed in about 2 years but not in a good way. It's been dumbed down to such a more corporate I guess is the word way which again was to capitalize on esports as it's clear the team cares less about the entirety of the community but more on making it more accessible as an esports. Every now and again they give an animation that may look cool but explains so little or maybe a new map (the newest one looks like a palette swap that is already in the game)

TL;DR

The games have two different philosophy but what I think TF2 has on its hands more than OW is a concrete understanding of what it wants to be, a concrete fandom and if they wanted to do an esports thing they could without sacrificing the community and making it a mess.

 

[⋖ cørdion ⋗]

I love where this game has gone: Down the shitter. Just like every other Blizzard title.

HotS world pro? Who gives a shit. WoW raider? Get with the times. OW main? Play a real game.

Sad thing is they keep funneling money into this game, and I've no idea where and how. They can put a B-team on it to make maps and characters. Instead, they kill Diablo, SC and anything WoW by making devs quit or transferred. And even then, they recently said "We got several Diablo projects going, because we know what franchises made up Blizzard's core". Watch as it's OW tie-ins.

 

[Mapo Tofu]

I love where this game has gone: Down the shitter. Just like every other Blizzard title.

HotS world pro? Who gives a shit. WoW raider? Get with the times. OW main? Play a real game.

Sad thing is they keep funneling money into this game, and I've no idea where and how. They can put a B-team on it to make maps and characters. Instead, they kill Diablo, SC and anything WoW by making devs quit or transferred. And even then, they recently said "We got several Diablo projects going, because we know what franchises made up Blizzard's core". Watch as it's OW tie-ins.

If it's OW tie ins I will be angry.
Jeff Kaplan and team don't know what the fuck they are doing.
Better question.
Why does Genji remind me of Hakumen from Blazblue

 

[Tanner Glass]

I think that the biggest thing between the two games is that TF2 is heavily driven by the community while OW is the illusion of community streamlined or gas lit by the creators. TF2 offers players the tools to make what they want with the workshop while OW's game browser feels like a bag level editors where you mess around with sliders again the illusion of creation which isn't creation. But that's the thing as OW was also gearing itself with the competitive seen (in my opinion way too early in the game's life) so the game needs to be watered down more and more and more. Fore the hell of it I managed to snag some time for a free weekend and I was personally surprised to see how the game changed in about 2 years but not in a good way. It's been dumbed down to such a more corporate I guess is the word way which again was to capitalize on esports as it's clear the team cares less about the entirety of the community but more on making it more accessible as an esports. Every now and again they give an animation that may look cool but explains so little or maybe a new map (the newest one looks like a palette swap that is already in the game)

TL;DR

The games have two different philosophy but what I think TF2 has on its hands more than OW is a concrete understanding of what it wants to be, a concrete fandom and if they wanted to do an esports thing they could without sacrificing the community and making it a mess.

I think it's more that TF2 is a more competitive game on a personal level so more competitive fun can be derived from it - there's way more room for your individual impact to have a positive impact on your team. TF2 also has a much deeper design with regards to class interaction than Overwatch, even outside of Overwatch's "rock, paper, scissors" design. TF2 has a pretty large breadth of what a player can do to help his team and a lot of varied interactions between classes and even specific class tools whereas Overwatch (despite having three times the characters) is limited to 1) Shooting other players with guns, 2) Preventing your team from being shot (via shields or invulnerability), 3) Helping players shoot enemies via crowd controlling them with stuns/freezes and 4) Healing playes who have been shot.

Just even a simple thing like comparing player skill with regards of moving around the map is vastly different between games.

The TF2 spy, for example has a variety of ways to penetrate an enemy line in order to get behind them (various invisibility watches and disguise tools) where the enemy team has just as many tools to try and find him (game physics, flamethrowers, milk and piss jars, teamchat, and literal observation). Each attempt to cross the line is dynamic and so is the decision as to what to do once you're behind the line and what would be the biggest benefit to the team (such as killing the medic, finding and killing the engineer and then his equipment, trying to kill stragglers who aren't at the line yet, killing power classes near the front of the line like soldiers and heavies, or targeting the teleporter entrance). A spy's entry tools are also his escape tools so he needs to make sure they're up if he's trying to escape if caught or try and make sure he kills near the frontline so he can escape back into his own team.

Compared to his Overwatch analogue, Reaper - who only has one loud and short-range teleport to try and use in order to get behind people. If he's able to get behind, there are no advanced objectives besides deciding which person to shoot in the back (the tank or healer, ideally). Reaper's escape tool literally makes him ethereal (and cannot be bodyblocked), faster and invulnerable for three seconds, meaning there is very little you can do to stop his escape.

 

[Snake of Diamond]

I think it's more that TF2 is a more competitive game on a personal level so more competitive fun can be derived from it - there's way more room for your individual impact to have a positive impact on your team. TF2 also has a much deeper design with regards to class interaction than Overwatch, even outside of Overwatch's "rock, paper, scissors" design. TF2 has a pretty large breadth of what a player can do to help his team and a lot of varied interactions between classes and even specific class tools whereas Overwatch (despite having three times the characters) is limited to 1) Shooting other players with guns, 2) Preventing your team from being shot (via shields or invulnerability), 3) Helping players shoot enemies via crowd controlling them with stuns/freezes and 4) Healing playes who have been shot.

Just even a simple thing like comparing player skill with regards of moving around the map is vastly different between games.

The TF2 spy, for example has a variety of ways to penetrate an enemy line in order to get behind them (various invisibility watches and disguise tools) where the enemy team has just as many tools to try and find him (game physics, flamethrowers, tard cum and piss jars, teamchat, and literal observation). Each attempt to cross the line is dynamic and so is the decision as to what to do once you're behind the line and what would be the biggest benefit to the team (such as killing the medic, finding and killing the engineer and then his equipment, trying to kill stragglers who aren't at the line yet, killing power classes near the front of the line like soldiers and heavies, or targeting the teleporter entrance). A spy's entry tools are also his escape tools so he needs to make sure they're up if he's trying to escape if caught or try and make sure he kills near the frontline so he can escape back into his own team.

Compared to his Overwatch analogue, Reaper - who only has one loud and short-range teleport to try and use in order to get behind people. If he's able to get behind, there are no advanced objectives besides deciding which person to shoot in the back (the tank or healer, ideally). Reaper's escape tool literally makes him ethereal (and cannot be bodyblocked), faster and invulnerable for three seconds, meaning there is very little you can do to stop his escape.

I think it's like what you said before OW spreads abilities too thin. There is no "spy" character a character who's class is obvious at what they do and are given the equipment to do so. At best Sombra has Spy's invisiblity but that's pretty much it and going to Bastion, Symmetra and Torb we see Torb is like playing Enginner but you can only deploy a turret and add minor protection while Bastion is like playing a suit up version of the Enginner's turret as your only job is to be a stationary weapon as Bastion. Concepts are split between three characters in the cast to soak up a slot...basically a turret based character.

Overwatch is built on the idea of constantly switching to outlast the inevitable war of attrition which is a personal peeve as it means you can lose despite playing the competently at the end only because the team you were fighting managed to go full defense and drive you away from the point. It's a rock paper scissors like game where the rules change as one minute scissors beats paper but another paper beats scissors because it had a rock. Unlike in TF2 OW characters can't be fully countered without the aid of a team which is by design. I think Blizz didn't want a one man army mentality but they have no idea that's what they inadvertently create. The idea of weapons and equipment in Tf2 changes the idea of being "broken" because playing the game myself for a while you will always have a piece of equipment or a weapon that can prevent being locked down so easily as long as knowing your team and working together. I've played on Consoles and PC since 2016 in Overwatch and there is so little in the way of communication and playing off each other as it feels people do their own thing to their character's abilities and hope the other people on their team do the same.

Everyone in OW is just in their own world and part of that is the POTG and the forced esports mentality of trying to get medals and outclass everyone on your team rather than actual teamwork.

 

[Medicated]

I love where this game has gone: Down the shitter. Just like every other Blizzard title.

HotS world pro? Who gives a shit. WoW raider? Get with the times. OW main? Play a real game.

Sad thing is they keep funneling money into this game, and I've no idea where and how. They can put a B-team on it to make maps and characters. Instead, they kill Diablo, SC and anything WoW by making devs quit or transferred. And even then, they recently said "We got several Diablo projects going, because we know what franchises made up Blizzard's core". Watch as it's OW tie-ins.

I seriously have no idea what they are thinking. I've already left HotS because it went from Blizzard outright telling LoL players, "This isn't the game for you" at launch. To dumping all their money into an esport league, reworking many characters and mechanics to make the game more esport and viewer friendly, and splitting the playerbase so much between Quick Match, Unranked Draft, Hero League, and Team League, that the game is in the midst of a player exodus due to the MM having such a small pool of players to draw upon, it creates terrible match after terrible match making people ragequit.

I have no idea where they get these new game designers from. It's like they have no clue.

 

[Mapo Tofu]

I seriously have no idea what they are thinking. I've already left HotS because it went from Blizzard outright telling LoL players, "This isn't the game for you" at launch. To dumping all their money into an esport league, reworking many characters and mechanics to make the game more esport and viewer friendly, and splitting the playerbase so much between Quick Match, Unranked Draft, Hero League, and Team League, that the game is in the midst of a player exodus due to the MM having such a small pool of players to draw upon, it creates terrible match after terrible match making people ragequit.

I have no idea where they get these new game designers from. It's like they have no clue.

Most likely from the "Even RIOT thinks this shit is unbalanced" garbage bin

 

[Snake of Diamond]

I seriously have no idea what they are thinking. I've already left HotS because it went from Blizzard outright telling LoL players, "This isn't the game for you" at launch. To dumping all their money into an esport league, reworking many characters and mechanics to make the game more esport and viewer friendly, and splitting the playerbase so much between Quick Match, Unranked Draft, Hero League, and Team League, that the game is in the midst of a player exodus due to the MM having such a small pool of players to draw upon, it creates terrible match after terrible match making people ragequit.

I have no idea where they get these new game designers from. It's like they have no clue.

Really? I always thought Hots was blatantly trying to ride onto Overwatch's success. Remember that OW was conceived at first as a MOBA but they changed the idea into a hero based FPS "inspired by TF2". I'm not interested in the game at all but saying "this isn't the game for you" seems really off putting and discordant considering you want people from one of the most popular MOBA to play your MOBA. People love giving Blizz so much benefit of the doubt but they clearly have no idea what they're doing with either game as it seems they want that esports clout so bad which is why they threw an unprepared Overwatch into the ring and slapped together their MOBA idea.

 

[KillThemCrackasBabies]

wait did they just make another character gay?

View attachment 532026

The community treats every character as gay, to the point that the Mercy/Genji thing was teased as being canon was treated as a minor controversy.

 

[Snake of Diamond]

The community treats every character as gay, to the point that the Mercy/Genji thing was teased as being canon was treated as a minor controversy.

It's just gas lighting the community which is my issue as this should just be silly fandom bullshit. Blizz loves to spoon feed and pander to their community in the most infuriating way ever which is why an LGBT megathread exists on the forums now

 

[Medicated]

Oh I thought the autism thing was just fan theories/pressure.

 

[millais]

Oh I thought the autism thing was just fan theories/pressure.
View attachment 547289

maybe autists would make good sci-fi mercenaries because they lack empathy and morality

 

[Snake of Diamond]

Oh I thought the autism thing was just fan theories/pressure.
View attachment 547289

No no my friend it's official just not as widely publicized as Tracer being gay. The Symmetra being autistic was just for the people who cared enough about it.