The Horrific War Crimes of Japan, never acknowledged, never atoned for, or apologized for. - Kawaii culture used as propaganda to make Japan look better after killing millions of people.

[Kari Kamiya]

Imperialism is one hell of a dopamine rush.

I'll split the baby here

I see what you did there.

Japan doesn't have to apologize for the Rape of Nanjing but only if they admit that them having atomic weapons dropped on them was wholly justified, and stop complaining about it.

Weird that they've complained about the Americans dropping the bomb when they pretty much worship action American cinema like Die Hard and Bladerunner.

Not sure if Japan ever did, but if they would apologize to the hibakusha, what they call the people and their descendants of the survivors of the atomic bombing, and to the Ainu and give reparations for how they've been treated, they don't have to apologize for the Sino-Japanese War, Rape of Nanking, or any other war crimes they did (although Unit 731 was fucking heinous). They just shouldn't pretend they never did such barbaric acts of war while teaching the young generation about their otherwise-rich history.

 

[LaysGuy]

After America a-bombed Japan twice, they began kissing up to Japan as a form of atonement, forgiving them of their atrocious war crimes.

This was made very obvious when General MacArthur decided to give immunity to the Emperor of Japan, along with all members of the imperial family from convictions of war crimes.

 

[Terminus Est]

Based gooks

 

[Lemmingwise]

I really like the worldview of "Why won't they apologize, maybe they'll apologize if we nuke their citizens again!?"

When will you apologize for nuking citizens?

Oh says the american, but that was a necessity... many more people would have died if we weren't as brutal as possible to counter the brutality of the Japanese.

What makes your self-justifying realpolitik more right than that of the japanese?

I don't think you can really claim a moral high ground.

I'll go one step further. I think the difference between how germany and japan have dealt with this, shows that japan's method is far better for future success, looking at the severity of the social problems in germany. I know the OP admitted that Germany's way is going too far, but can you really stop the path to becoming Germany once you open the door to that? I'm not too certain one can. Maybe the propaganda and lies by the Japanese government in minimizing their crimes are comparable to what the United States government does in regards to theirs, particularly exemplary in the 2013 repeal of ban on government propaganda against its own people over news networks.

At the end of the movie Memento a point is made about how we all lie to ourselves and distort our history to suit ourselves and help ourselves and certainly in politics nothing is more true and effective.

Shit, for someone who puts the value of truth above almost everything, I've made a pretty compelling argument for deceit and lies in this post. You've caused me to think about some dark shit @Poiseon

 

[Krokodil Overdose]

Is there any situation in the history of anything ever where this singing the "I'm sorry" song has ever actually produced reconciliation as opposed to entrenched hostilities and rent-seeking? Because I can't think of any.

As far as "brainwashing kids" goes, the Japanese method ("we dindu nuffin") is far preferable to the German one ("you are tainted by existing, stained with the Original Sin of the Holocaust that no amount of contrition will ever wash clean. Your life has no meaning unless you devote it to ritually abominating Hitler and doing penance for the six gorillion.") Inasmuch as in [The Current Year] apologies for past misdeeds is seen not as an olive branch, but as a confession, not to mention an open invitation to rent-seeking grievance-mongers everywhere... fuck it.

I've said this before, but I feel the need to reiterate the point: we need to get the fuck over WW2. It was seventy years ago, all the interesting people are dead, and all of the directly effected people will be gone in most of our lifetimes. Nobody's being done any favors by this constant, interminable wallowing in the past.

 

[Mewtwo_Rain]

Apologies as far as I'm concerned when it comes to countries, politics, and within regards to historical events are nothing more than power grabs and emotional black mail. Even if to some the intent sounds good, the outcome ends up a lot differently (Good intentions pave the road to Hell scenarios) and all it does is lead to resentment when one group doesn't apologize in turn or demands of reparations or certain treatments.

In real life situations, that's fine to apologize when you wrong someone, but within regards to politics/etc. I'd rather not. Everyone's dirty and just using it for leverage, favors, power plays any way. Even if the apology is sincere and no country gets effected by making it, it's the risk that's the issue. It's a high risk, low reward, for what? For a group of people who were in said event/etc. to get over their fee-fees? Which they probably won't get over anyway thus doing nothing productive? It's literally just Kabuki theater.

It also reeks to much of the "Denouncing this person" crap or at least similar in effect and outcome. It's useless. Now if they want to (whichever country) that's fine, but I don't think it should ever be expected or needed. Some guy having his friend blown up with an explosive probably isn't going to get over watching his friend bleed out during war times just because the modern PM running the country says "I'm sorry." Let alone someone from opposition forces or opposing nations responsible for said outcomes.

 

[Chexxchunk]

Well, that and Japan seemed to have a weird, oscillating obsession with America.

Imagine space aliens visited you on three separate occasions, blessed you with amazing ideas and technology that totally revolutionized your society, and then fucked off leaving an aura of mystery.
Because that's what happened between Japan and Germany/America.

 

[Truthspeaker]

The problem is in this world during the current year, you couldn't just have some press conference formally admitting an apology for what they did. If they admitted it happened, they would have to apologize for it, and that sets off talk of "reparations", and before you know it, it's some globalist puppet country ready to sell out their own people and culture, a bit like a time-delayed Germany.

It wasn't a Current Year thing.

The New York Times, which notoriously covered up the worst atrocity of the '30s, covered Nanking as it was happening. The Japanese press covered the beheading contests the soldiers engaged in as they were happening.

Massacring the elderly, women, and children was always considered bad conduct in warfare. Cannibalism was also considered bad conduct. All that was committed constantly by the Japanese Army in occupied territory.

I really like the worldview of "Why won't they apologize, maybe they'll apologize if we nuke their citizens again!?"

When will you apologize for nuking citizens?

Oh says the american, but that was a necessity... many more people would have died if we weren't as brutal as possible to counter the brutality of the Japanese.

What makes your self-justifying realpolitik more right than that of the japanese?

The Japs attacked us.

They killed thousands of American sailors to retaliate on our sanctions. They killed hundreds of thousands of American sodiers alone during World War II. Before Fatman and Litte Boy were dropped, they were planning on killing every one of the Allied POWs they held captive. They did it to give themselves an Asian Empire, and they committed the second-worst atrocities of any party during WW2.

The only shame is that the bomb wasn't ready by the Summer of '44. We could've dropped it on Berlin, and greatly shortened the horror.

And, we dropped fucking warning leaflets on Hiroshima and Nagasaki before the bombing. The Axis would've never done that. The Soviets and the ROC would've also never done that.

Is there any situation in the history of anything ever where this singing the "I'm sorry" song has ever actually produced reconciliation as opposed to entrenched hostilities and rent-seeking? Because I can't think of any.

Just off the top of my head: the Second Vatican Council was the single most significant move ever made against anti-Semitism in history.

Every country that made a move towards truth and reconciliation after communism is way nicer to live in nowadays than the countries that didn't.

The refusal to have honest conversation about the atrocities committed during pre-War Yugoslavia led to the mutual hatred being expressed in civil war.

But there have been lots of others. Germany's wasn't even about the Reich. It was about the Reds.

 

[Lemmingwise]

The Japs attacked us.

Well that makes intentionally killing civilians suddenly not a war crime.

As for "they did it to themselves" rhetoric may be as easily applied to the allied powers in causing japan to turn imperialistic in the first place, by being refused racial equality after their sizeable contribution in the first world war. This was refused and cancelled by president Wilson after every nation that voted, voted in favor of it. No racial equality for the japanese.

Also after centuries of imperialism in the east by western powers, Japan was denied practically any gains. This after the US had just taken the philippines. But I'm sure that was liberating them for democracy, right?

If Japanese did the nukes to themselves, then certainly the US did pearl harbor to themselves.

I generally side with america in a lot of things, but you have to untangle the propaganda about historic events 70 years ago.

It's lovely to hear that you would have loved to bomb another major european population center with a nuke though.


edit: I see you added one more line, so let me respond to that too.

And, we dropped fucking warning leaflets on Hiroshima and Nagasaki before the bombing. The Axis would've never done that. The Soviets and the ROC would've also never done that.

Those leaflets were general "petition your leaders to surrender and evacuate your cities". These warnings were dropped on 35 different cities. And it's not like it would be even possible to evacuate those population centers in any meaningful way. The leaflets were intended as propaganda and they read as propaganda when you read them. Psychological warfare. Not some kind of humanitarian purpose, because firebombing and nukes after all were not targetted at military bases, they were targetted at places where they did maximum damage to life in Japan so as to be unendurable.

Every side used these kind of propaganda leaflets, Germany too. It's only America upon winning that claimed some moral reason that they were gentle warnings to prevent loss of life, which is a ridiculous assertion if you look closely at the claim.

There are some redditor historians that claim that there is no evidence of nagasaki or hiroshima receiving leaflets BEFORE the bombings, but I don't know how accurate that claim is.

 

[Truthspeaker]

Well that makes intentionally killing civilians suddenly not a war crime.

The bombs wiped out 10,000 Japanese troops. It was a perfectly legitimate military operation.

Unless you're implying that the Americans were unjustified in the war from the start.

As for "they did it to themselves" rhetoric may be as easily applied to the allied powers in causing japan to turn imperialistic in the first place, by being refused racial equality after their sizeable contribution in the first world war. This was refused and cancelled by president Wilson after every nation that voted, voted in favor of it. No racial equality for the japanese.

Wilson made many, many terrible decisions during WW1. Chief among them was entering the conflict.

But racial equality? The Japs never gave a fuck about racial equality. They were just as brutal and oppressive as the worst of Europe's colonial powers. If they gave a fuck about racial equality, or human beings other than themselves, they wouldn't've cannibalized those Indians.

Also after centuries of imperialism in the east by western powers, Japan was denied practically any gains. This after the US had just taken the philippines. But I'm sure that was liberating them for democracy, right?

I don't support the American Conquest and Rule over the Phillipines either. Why the fuck would I support any old thing just 'cause Americans did it? I don't support slavery or prohibition either, for the record.

If Japanese did the nukes to themselves, then certainly the US did pearl harbor to themselves.

So bombing someone when you're not at war with them because they're sanctioning you is morally equivalent to bombing someone you're at war with after dropping fucking warning leaflets on your target in your book?

Good to know!

I generally side with america in a lot of things, but you have to untangle the propaganda about historic events 70 years ago.

Untangling propaganda only means something when you do it for both sides.

I'm no brain-dead rah-rah-er. I've already been more critical of America's unjustified actions during WW2 (the Internment, segregated armies, McArthur's amnesty of war criminals, the practice of making trophies out of Japanese sodiers body parts) than anyond else in the thread.

It's lovely to hear that you would have loved to bomb another major european population center with a nuke though.

Berlin was the enemy capital, and we were at war with them.

Would you've been more comfortable with an invading army doing the job of the bomb, like what actually happened to Berlin? Have you ever read anything about what invading armies do to occupied cities when they have to take them mostly through their own labor, like what's been brought up repeatedly already?

Or is this something you only get ouraged about when certain sides do it?

You've done a lot to suggest your answer.

 

[Y2K Baby]

Imagine space aliens visited you on three separate occasions, blessed you with amazing ideas and technology that totally revolutionized your society, and then fucked off leaving an aura of mystery.
Because that's what happened between Japan and Germany/America.

I SAID, EVEN BEFORE THAT.

 

[Lemmingwise]

edit: I see you had questions that I hadn't answered. I let me answer your question

Would you've been more comfortable with an invading army doing the job of the bomb, like what actually happened to Berlin? Have you ever read anything about what invading armies do to occupied cities when they have to take them mostly through their own labor, like what's been brought up repeatedly already?

Or is this something you only get ouraged about when certain sides do it?

Would I have been more comfortable? I'm not arguing for comfort at any level. If the invading army killed as many civilians, I'd view it as morally equal.

Have I read about what invading armies do? Yes, I've read extensive accounts in regards to various wars.

Do I only get outraged when certain sides do it? I'm not particularly outraged and I don't think a neutral reading of what I wrote could point to that. I was piercing some of the propaganda that you were previously believing and I think it's uncomfortable to you. I think it sparks anger and I think that makes you perceive my comments as far more firebrand than they were. I can do firebrand posting pretty well if I'm zealous about a subject, but this wasn't it.

But racial equality? The Japs never gave a fuck about racial equality. They were just as brutal and oppressive as the worst of Europe's colonial powers. If they gave a fuck about racial equality, or human beings other than themselves, they wouldn't've cannibalized those Indians.

See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racial_Equality_Proposal

I was presuming you were familiar with it. It's not about universal racial equality, but it was about the japanese being recognized as racially equal after joining the war as an ally and helping to win it. The request to be recognized as racially equal was shut down by the American president.

I'm not saying this to score moral points for any side, but it's hard to not see this as a contributing factor to Japan dealing with "No you're not equally racial" after the first world war with "Fine, we're superior racially" at the second world war.

Why the fuck would I support any old thing just 'cause Americans did it?

Your defense of every other american thing would seem to imply so. But that wasn't why I wrote it. My point wasn't "look how horrible the americans are", my point is that the sword cuts both ways. If war actions against japan are justified for their imperialism, then war actions against americans are justified for their imperialism.

And the warning leaflets is a pretty big joke and a perfect example of you swallowing self-serving propaganda. I don't even mind that much, as I said, a nation probably needs that kind of self-serving propaganda.

It's just that you're not as different from those "japs" as you'd like to think, when it comes to nation-serving propaganda.

 

[Bass]

The fact is the Chinese are in the process of making a goddamn anime about Karl Marx and Friedrich Engels called The Leader that will undoubtedly gloss over the fact they were two trust fund assholes that never worked a goddamn honest day in their lives.

I think your only mostly right here.

Engals was a trust fund asshole who never worked an honest day in his life.

Marx was the lazy asshole who mooched off the trust fund asshole and made Engals look like he was a godd@mn workaholic.

 

[Truthspeaker]

See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racial_Equality_Proposal

I was presuming you were familiar with it. It's not about universal racial equality, but it was about the japanese being recognized as racially equal after joining the war as an ally and helping to win it. The request to be recognized as racially equal was shut down by the American president.

I'm not saying this to score moral points for any side, but it's hard to not see this as a contributing factor to Japan dealing with "No you're not equally racial" after the first world war with "Fine, we're superior racially" at the second world war.

This is nonsense.

The Japanese didn't support racial equality. They supported themselves being treated equally to Whites.

The idea that Whites invented racism in Japan is nonsense. The persecution of the Untouchables (not those Untouchables, the Burakumin), the Ainu, and the Okinawans are matters of record, and occured long before World War I.

The Japanese were not the only people who did this. Many anticolonial activists throughout the world also supported their own groups being treated as equal to Europeans rather than all groups being treated equally. But the Japanese weren't anticolonial either. They wanted their own colonies, much like the Third Reich, and took them by the second-most brutal measures of the most brutal war in History.

Y111our defense of every other american thing would seem to imply so. But that wasn't why I wrote it. My point wasn't "look how horrible the americans are", my point is that the sword cuts both ways. If war actions against japan are justified for their imperialism, then war actions against americans are justified for their imperialism.

I'm alive today because my grandfathers didn't have to invade Honshū. As our most of the people posting on this site, including you.

Pardon me if I'm biased towards the reason I'm alive at all. There's a certain swarthy segment of the American population that feels the same way about Sherman's March.

And the warning leaflets is a pretty big joke and a perfect example of you swallowing self-serving propaganda. I don't even mind that much, as I said, a nation probably needs that kind of self-serving propaganda.

The warning leaflets weren't a joke. They were real. As real as bayonettes in a Chinese baby.

They were ignored, chiefly because Japanese propagandists told them -- especially under Baron Araki, who died of old age in the mid-'60s -- that dying for the Emperor was the highest glory anyone could achieve.

It's just that you're not as different from those "japs" as you'd like to think, when it comes to nation-serving propaganda.

I didn't get this from public school. By the time I graduated, the one history teacher I had who seriously covered World War II said the atom bomb was a bad thing, and completely glossed over the crimes of the Japanese Empire.

Most of the rest of my history classes extensively covered the abuses Europeans inflicted on Amerindians and Africans, even as far back as elementary school. They didn't come close to covering everything, but the message was still clear.

The Paul Fussell article I linked was something I found on my own. He was a combat veteran of the Western Front, injured in action, judged 40% disabled after he got home, but was still cleared to be part of the Invasion of Japan. President Truman was also a combat veteran, artillery, of Meuse-Argonne, which to this day is the deadliest battle in the history of the American Military. Those two forgot more aboyt war than you or I'll ever know.

Pardon me if I trust their call more than yours.

 

[The best and greatest]

edit: I see you had questions that I hadn't answered. I let me answer your question



Would I have been more comfortable? I'm not arguing for comfort at any level. If the invading army killed as many civilians, I'd view it as morally equal.

Have I read about what invading armies do? Yes, I've read extensive accounts in regards to various wars.

Do I only get outraged when certain sides do it? I'm not particularly outraged and I don't think a neutral reading of what I wrote could point to that. I was piercing some of the propaganda that you were previously believing and I think it's uncomfortable to you. I think it sparks anger and I think that makes you perceive my comments as far more firebrand than they were. I can do firebrand posting pretty well if I'm zealous about a subject, but this wasn't it.




See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racial_Equality_Proposal

I was presuming you were familiar with it. It's not about universal racial equality, but it was about the japanese being recognized as racially equal after joining the war as an ally and helping to win it. The request to be recognized as racially equal was shut down by the American president.

I'm not saying this to score moral points for any side, but it's hard to not see this as a contributing factor to Japan dealing with "No you're not equally racial" after the first world war with "Fine, we're superior racially" at the second world war.


Y111our defense of every other american thing would seem to imply so. But that wasn't why I wrote it. My point wasn't "look how horrible the americans are", my point is that the sword cuts both ways. If war actions against japan are justified for their imperialism, then war actions against americans are justified for their imperialism.

And the warning leaflets is a pretty big joke and a perfect example of you swallowing self-serving propaganda. I don't even mind that much, as I said, a nation probably needs that kind of self-serving propaganda.

It's just that you're not as different from those "japs" as you'd like to think, when it comes to nation-serving propaganda.

To add to this Americans also fucked over Japan during thier war with Russia during the peace talks. The Japanese wanted to annex mainland Russian territory but all they got was some rinky-dink island.

Americans also restricted Japanese access to their resources and froze Japanese assets in America when it was increasingly obvious who the US was throwing their lot in with. As a consequence the Japanese military was in dire need of war resources which they decided to obtain the same way everyone else obtained their resources up until then: through force.

 

[Lemmingwise]

The Japanese didn't support racial equality. They supported themselves being treated equally to Whites.

I'm not sure why you're calling it nonsense in the first sentence and then repeating my claim in the second sentence. That's what I'm saying, mate.

I'm not sure why you felt the necessity to make this claim, as yes, it's nonsense, but I never said otherwise:

The idea that Whites invented racism in Japan is nonsense.

The warning leaflets weren't a joke. They were real.

(I wasn't saying they didn't exist and if you read my earlier replies more carefully you'd know that and also what my real criticism of them was)

A Day Too Late

Did the United States warn Japan about the atomic bombs prior to their use? A mystery is unravelled.

blog.nuclearsecrecy.com

Pardon me if I trust their call more than yours.

Instead of trusting someone's call, you could seek to try to understand why I see things differently, regardless of whether you would agree with that perspective. I think many parts of your comments suggest that you don't understand my message at all.

didn't get this from public school. By the time I graduated, the one history teacher I had who seriously covered World War II said the atom bomb was a bad thing, and completely glossed over the crimes of the Japanese Empire.

Most of the rest of my history classes extensively covered the abuses Europeans inflicted on Amerindians and Africans, even as far back as elementary school. They didn't come close to covering everything, but the message was still clear.

Ah, this is very informative and also seems the overcompensation in the opposite direction. My apologies for misunderstanding and expecting a HOO!!-RAH!! american education. I did not just mean school education when I said propaganda, but more significantly movies and other culture, as I suspect many people's perception of pearl harbor is more shaped by Pearl Harbor movie than history lessons at school. But I'll apologize for being wrong in that presumption, with one caveat; the gung ho way you approached the topic didn't give much room for me to think otherwise.

Sounds like your education was about as oikophobic as one might expect in the rest of the west, I didn't expect that honestly. I get that you've developed some sort of allergy against this kind of self-hating crap as a result, which I generally would consider quite a healthy response after finding those additional sources. But I say this with the best intentions to you; you seem to be fighting a shade in your past, and I say that with full empathy of that position.

I make no claim about the moral good or bad of japan's colonial ambitions, only that being allowed to be a blood brother in world war 1, but not being allowed to persue similar colonial ambitions as its brothers is part of the reason why japan broke from its allies and sought a new one in a former enemy (germany).

 

[MadDamon]

leftist voices crying shame and guilt against [USA / UK / France / Spain / Germany / Japan / Serbia] over historical events are omnipresent in today's media. now where are these voices when it comes to historical events carried out by [Turkey / USSR / China / Arab Caliphates / Mongolia / Bosnia] ? suddenly they're absent, silent, indifferent, dismissive.

this disparity in attention and coverage betrays their true intentions and motivations - they're in it to spin an anti west, anti european, anti right narrative, nothing else. and that is why we in turn dismiss the whole thing entirely, as is appropriate with enemy propaganda.

I'm not saying that only Jap should apologize for what they have done. Imo, every countries should have, in some form, apologize, or at the very least, acknowledge those horrific events that happened in the past, brought by their ancestors.
Not saying that they should go full omfg We are devil incarnated kill us mode like Germany is, but neither should they completely ignore it to the point like Jap, saying these event is nothing but fictional.

Also, if Jap ain't that much of a hypocrite when it comes to their history, i won't mind them that much on this.

 

[The Estatist]

It's not like Amerifats dindu nuffin when Pearl Harbor happened. They were butting into the Far East way before that.

Anyway, if Amerimutts can get away with terrorizing the Injuns then we can let the Japs off fo Nanking.

 

[Corbin Dallas Multipass]

I don't care about apologies, but the fact that they teach japanese students a completely alternate version of history where japan did nothing wrong and the US a-bombed them because we thought it would be funny, is hypocritical and ridiculous. That's like germany teaching their students hitler was a nice guy and the allies made up the whole genocide thing. Would you say "But the firebombing of dresden! We are just as bad!"

Also, people seem to forget who fucking started the war. The japanese atrocities like murdering babies did not in any way advance their war effort, it was sadism. Dropping the atomic bombs, while killing lots of civilians, immediately ended the fucking war. The war that also killed lots of civilians. The war that we did not agree to or ask for.

The problem is history gets twisted to the point where in the US we're being taught the US was completely in the wrong in the run up to WW2, and we bombed japan for no reason, and no talking about the HORRIBLE shit other countries did because we aren't perfect and their governments get mad when people bring it up.

How long until the US was actually the one genociding people and the nazis actually were just misunderstood?

 

[The Estatist]

The US got their genociding out of their system with the Redskins.

Also, Amerindimutts can't really make too big a fuss about Nanking getting raped when MacArthur helped cover up Hirohito and Co.