Trolling Ethics Debate Thread

[GS 281]

You've seen the exchanges between Chris and I: I don't order him around, I make suggestions and give advice as any other friend would. I don't expect Chris to take my advice, but I offer it anyway knowing that there's a slim chance he might actually listen.

The thing is though, that that's mainly all you do... Make suggestions or try to "nudge" him. In my relationships with people I do very little advice-giving, mainly in my relations with people it is a sharing of interests and if they have concerns, we discuss them. I see very little discussion, so basically veiling it as "friendly suggestions" doesn't cut it at all.

"Renee" is pretty much genuine in that she's trying to help Chris. There's no way I'm going to use my real identity when dealing with Chris, given his propensity for d0xx1ng people: sorry, I just don't need that. The first time I said something that "triggered" him, he'd drop my d0x: again, no thanks.

And no, sorry, interaction with me, or just about anyone else for that matter, is better than interaction with bat shit crazy Barb: in this case, I feel perfectly justified in saying that I'm a better influence on Chris than she is.

This confuses me. On one hand you're saying "I'm a better influence than his own mother!" and "I am genuinely trying to help him" and on the other you are saying "I couldn't trust him with even knowing who I am". Clearly you wanted to have some sort of role in his life in order to manipulate him into doing what you felt would be best for him, but you are frustrated that he would not accept the parameters of the relationship that you desired. And as for being a better influence than his mother? When he didn't give in, you packed up shop and walked away. My God...

Someone actually did suggest that I seek mental health because of my interaction with Chris, I just laughed it off because it was obvious that they were trolling. If I thought they were being serious, I'd ask them to explain why they thought I'd benefit from this type of intervention. (I'm going to stop there because I don't want to get into an "I'm better than Chris because'..." thing.)

Ever think he brushed it off because he found it personally insulting?

 

[Lurker]

Then what you are saying is that if people refuse mental health, then people seeking the opportunity to laugh at a man of diminishing capacity who had little in terms of mental faculties to begin with are doing a good thing by reaching out and manipulating their behavior for their entertainment. I feel you may be on to something. Perhaps the next edition of the American Journal of Psychiatry should have a conceptual piece taking the keynote identifying the benefits of the online troll for those who are of limited abilities and significant psychological issues. There can be a case study on Chris and the contributions that trolls have made to the improvement of his condition.

I don't recall saying that... Probably shouldn't put words in peoples' mouths.

All I'm saying is that I don't believe that what Thetan did was any more harmful to Chris than what Chris is doing to himself. I do not believe that Thetan's intentions, in regards to the Renee persona, were to manipulate Chris. She was trying to help him, and when you're just a person online, there's only so much you can do.

And yes, I suppose you could say that maybe Thetan was possibly looking for entertainment as well, but was getting Chris to be more social really hurting him?

 

[Alec Benson Leary]

He can do what he did in the GameStop, and he can (stupidly) discuss it on Facebook. That doesn't mean our sharp-as-a-tack legal system is going to wind up with private video and Facebook screenshots to use in the trial. But because it's Chris, someone has likely made sure the prosecutor has been receiving the info.

The benefit of the doubt any other person would've had is that they're not subject to being filmed by random strangers, but Chris does not escape that scrutiny.

I don't like this argument because it seems to suggest that Chris deserves "breathing room" to get away with harmful crimes. Chris didn't get filmed harmlessly rolling through a stop sign on a small street in the middle of the night because he was reasonably confident the streets are empty that time of night. He got filmed attacking someone with pepper spray. He doesn't really have a right to a chance to get away when he's going around picking fights and threatening to hurt innocent people. At that point he deserves what the world hands him.

And as others have said, he looks ridiculous and we are full blown into the information age. People get filmed all the time looking stupid and acting ridiculous. Marvin and I and our friends make a regular hobby of watching hours worth of video on synchtube of people being filmed doing stupid shit and fucking themselves over.

And he doesn't deserve it because he's a "celebrity," he has none of the benefits that come with celebrity status and mainstream news does not report on him.

That's not entirely true. Look at his Ebay sales.

And if he made stupid decisions when he was younger, he deserves the right to move away from those actions and recede from public view.

He doesn't want to move away from his bad actions. He wants to commit more.

 

[Lurker]

Consider the advantage of doing nothing - zero risk of unexpected negative consequences.
How sure are you that you can predict the likelihood and severity of something bad happening as a result of intervening in Chris's life? What are the odds your intervention will succeed?
I personally don't see how any online follower of Chris's can be sure enough that intervening in Chris's life is worth the risk.

Maybe I'm just weird, but I'm not sitting here looking at what could have happened. Thetan's "intervention" didn't appear to cause much, if any, damage to Chris. Do I suggest that every single person on this forum suddenly try what Thetan did? Fuck no. Because you're right in that there are risks.

But what's done is done, and Thetan tried to help him in her own way.

 

[General Juicer]

He wouldn't have had an escape hatch. Did you see how many witnesses were there? The store also probably had surveillance of unknown quality. At least Chris would've stood a chance to shape out a decent plea bargain that may have emphasized rehabilitation rather than jail time. Now if he gets a lawyer and he tries to make a deal with the prosecutor, the prosecutor can laugh and tell him he's got 6 witnesses, two tapes and audio, so he's going for a conviction and max time (not that he will).

Your argument still boils down to Chris ought to be getting a lighter punishment than what he objectively deserved because of stochastic weaknesses in the investigation phase -- weaknesses that would have held were it not for his celebrity, that is. For the sake of argument, I'll concede (even though I strongly doubt that the prosecution and judge would be forced to make the lion's share of their case and sentencing justification solely around the video) that this is true for most people who would commit this sort of crime. But even if we accept this premise, so what?

If you think that 1-2 years in the pokey for pepper spraying + vandalism is too harsh even if the case is a total slam dunk then make that argument. Saying that it's the fandom's fault that the prosecution has too much evidence is inane.

 

[GS 281]

I don't recall saying that... Probably shouldn't put words in peoples' mouths.

Well, what you said was

No one can force Chris to go to a psychologist. Thetan is doing the only thing that she can realistically do, in my opinion. Sure, it may be morally questionable to impersonate people that Chris knew in reality, but if Thetan can keep Chris from doing dumb shit like pepper spraying random people, it's certainly better than nothing.

You are saying three things here. You are saying that Chris cannot be forced to see a psychologist, that Thetan did the only thing she could do, and since Chris has all the problems he has, then it is better than nothing. You do understand that in saying these three things, that the reasonable conclusion one would make is that you are saying is that

Then what you are saying is that if people refuse mental health, then people seeking the opportunity to laugh at a man of diminishing capacity who had little in terms of mental faculties to begin with are doing a good thing by reaching out and manipulating their behavior for their entertainment.

As Thetan has admitted extensively that she did not seek friendship or to be close or personal and that she was only trolling him, you indicate that her trolling of Chris better than doing nothing at all. No words are being put in your mouth, you were paraphrased and generalized in an acceptable manner.

 

[Ravenor]

Oh, if you're talking about the whole gal-pal thing, then I agree with you. I not only didn't expect Chris to buy into any of it, but I didn't expect him to react the way he did.

I admit that the gal-pal thing was a huge mistake, and I'm sorry I ever went down that path.

Can I ask was the Gal Pal thing Chosen as the Path of Least resistance or because it's a known working tactic? If you could change it what "Stalking Horse" would you have chosen?

 

[qld]

Your argument still boils down to Chris ought to be getting a lighter punishment than what he objectively deserved because of stochastic weaknesses in the investigation phase -- weaknesses that would have held were it not for his celebrity, that is. For the sake of argument, I'll concede (even though I strongly doubt that the prosecution and judge would be forced to make the lion's share of their case and sentencing justification solely around the video) that this is true for most people who would commit this sort of crime. But even if we accept this premise, so what?

If you think that 1-2 years in the pokey for pepper spraying + vandalism is too harsh even if the case is a total slam dunk then make that argument. Saying that it's the fandom's fault that the prosecution has too much evidence is inane.

It's the prosecutor's job to go for the maximum sentence. Around here, that's how they get re-elected. It's the defense's job (PD, PC or Pro Se) to get him off. They should be able to strike a balance that is beneficial to the defendant and the public the prosecutor represents. This fan video could upset the balance and rob the defense of any bargaining chips for rehabilitation that Chris needs instead of the prison that will make Chris worse. Normal people don't come out of prison rehabilitated, they come out with mental disorders, learn how to be better criminals and often get victimized. What good do you think 1-2 years in a state prison could do for Chris, and ultimately the community they will release him upon?

 

[Marvin]

It's the prosecutor's job to go for the maximum sentence. Around here, that's how they get re-elected. It's the defense's job (PD, PC or Pro Se) to get him off. They should be able to strike a balance that is beneficial to the defendant and the public the prosecutor represents. This fan video could upset the balance and rob the defense of any bargaining chips for rehabilitation that Chris needs instead of the prison that will make Chris worse. Normal people don't come out of prison rehabilitated, they come out with mental disorders, learn how to be better criminals and often get victimized. What good do you think 1-2 years in a state prison could do for Chris, and ultimately the community they will release him upon?

County correctional facility, tops. He'll be fine. Pissy, but fine.

 

[Sammy]

What good do you think 1-2 years in a state prison could do for Chris, and ultimately the community they will release him upon?

Well for one, he might stop pepper spraying people, and threatening to pepper spray others that offend him.

 

[P-Logic]

Someone actually did suggest that I seek mental health because of my interaction with Chris, I just laughed it off because it was obvious that they were trolling. If I thought they were being serious, I'd ask them to explain why they thought I'd benefit from this type of intervention. (I'm going to stop there because I don't want to get into an "I'm better than Chris because'..." thing.)

I wasn't trolling. I was being completely sincere. And yes, you are a lot better off than Chris. That's exactly why your behaviour is such a concern.

If you ever want to have that discussion, you know where my PM is.

 

[Lurker]

Well, what you said was



You are saying three things here. You are saying that Chris cannot be forced to see a psychologist, that Thetan did the only thing she could do, and since Chris has all the problems he has, then it is better than nothing. You do understand that in saying these three things, that the reasonable conclusion one would make is that you are saying is that



As Thetan has admitted extensively that she did not seek friendship or to be close or personal and that she was only trolling him, you indicate that her trolling of Chris better than doing nothing at all. No words are being put in your mouth, you were paraphrased and generalized in an acceptable manner.

Maybe my issue is with the word "manipulate", which is me being nitpicky, I know. While I suppose you have a point, I guess my issue with what you're saying is that I don't think Thetan was really manipulating him. She merely made suggestions to Chris, some of which he took, and some of which he didn't. Hell, you saw that text from Chris when Thetan dared to mention the possibility of Chris seeing a therapist. At the end of the day, Chris is goinna do what Chris is gonna do.

If Thetan considers what she did "trolling", then she's probably one of the nicer trolls I've seen, because I've seen nothing from the textlogs to indicate that she forced him to do anything that he didn't want to do.

And yeah, I still think that it's better that Thetan did something, rather than leave Chris to his own devices. You see what he does with absolutely no prompting, yeah? Thetan was almost like an internet babysitter for him. Tried to keep him out of trouble. And for a while, it seemed to work. And then Chris decided to go full retard.

But obviously my moral compass isn't the best. What do I know.

 

[Cuck Norris]

Maybe my issue is with the word "manipulate", which is me being nitpicky, I know. While I suppose you have a point, I guess my issue with what you're saying is that I don't think Thetan was really manipulating him. She merely made suggestions to Chris, some of which he took, and some of which he didn't. Hell, you saw that text from Chris when Thetan dared to mention the possibility of Chris seeing a therapist. At the end of the day, Chris is goinna do what Chris is gonna do.

If Thetan considers what she did "trolling", then she's probably one of the nicer trolls I've seen, because I've seen nothing from the textlogs to indicate that she forced him to do anything that he didn't want to do.

And yeah, I still think that it's better that Thetan did something, rather than leave Chris to his own devices. You see what he does with absolutely no prompting, yeah? Thetan was almost like an internet babysitter for him. Tried to keep him out of trouble. And for a while, it seemed to work. And then Chris decided to go full exceptional individual.

But obviously my moral compass isn't the best. What do I know.

The only time Chris did something he didn't want to do that I'm aware of was the "Julie Reveals Herself" incident. He may have been coerced into doing stupid and embarrassing shit (Jackie "saga" anyone?) but it's not like anyone had anything on him to do it. Hell even when he had his PSN accounts hijacked other times most of what happened to him was minuscule compared to BlueSpike.

 

[Lurker]

The only time Chris did something he didn't want to do that I'm aware of was the "Julie Reveals Herself" incident. He may have been coerced into doing stupid and embarrassing shit (Jackie "saga" anyone?) but it's not like anyone had anything on him. Hell even when he had his PSN accounts hijacked other times most of what happened to him was minuscule compared to BlueSpike.

Well, Chris is also gullible and stupid, so there's that.

At least we can agree that Chris may have finally learned that he doesn't have to do what strangers on the internet tell him to, especially if he doesn't want to.

 

[SPARKLETWAT]

It's ultimately choice and I'll say why using a former lolcow as an example.

Spoiler: Behind a spoiler for less scrolling if this is boring, lol.

Who remembers CyndilovesPiccolo? She's autistic too and was probably as bad as classic Chris minus a video camera and she can't drive plus she was smart enough to not d0x herself. She caused a shitstorm on Deviantart in 2008 after it pulled one of her popular Transformers fanfics because it had porn in it and she acted nearly identical to Chris losing his shit about Sonic's blue arms. Cyndi tried to boycott DA or turn people against it, don't remember at the moment but it got the attention of a chan board. The trolls trolled Cyndi hard and got all her other fics yanked off DA too and you'd think someone murdered her family with how she blew up about it. She went around blaming the trolls and autism and saying everybody was against her. She tried to make the world feel sorry for her thinking the trolls might feel bad and stop but nope, it got worse. She moved around through a couple blogging sites and started posting ugly lulzworthy pics of herself.

Btw she later told me she lied about cutting her hair off and dying it purple. She said something about pulling it back and taking photos that she edited on her computer because she was afraid of trolls recognizing her while in public with per parents IRL. They wouldve cut down her internet otherwise which is something Chris's parents should have done. Anyway those color pics are all photoshopped to look lulzy and stupid on purpose. I saw her at botcon in 2009 and she had this stupid black bandana on her head to hide that her hair wasn't purple. I think she moved blogs because she tried to find one that let her put an invisible IP tracker in it to catch the IPs of trolls to ban them off her old Ambrosia forum. Too bad it backfired as the caps taken from her whining made her look like an assclown.

She kind of fell off the radar in 2009 with nothing hugely lulzy except the purple hair pictures and caps from her various blogs being dropped on the ED page, until something went down in 2012 with someone named swift-tiger on DA that got Cyndi to look back at herself and take responsibility for the shit she started. I don't think Cyndi had the capacity to change without seeing somebody else doing the stupid shit she was before trolls got to her. She couldve gone south like Chris and continued blaming everybody else but instead she recognized she was an ass, apologized for the bullshit and changed her behavior and has stuck to it. She's really nice and sweet now and if trolls try to harass her she shrugs it off. Ask her about ED and she says she totally fucked up and admits she was wrong.

I'm talking mainly about Chris below but this applies to basically all lulzcows.

The point i'm trying to make is Chris can change and chooses not to and whether it's his upbringing or his stubbornness is anybody's guess. "I'm right because I'm the hero of my story and you're wrong because you're all against me and everyone against me is villains and the hero always has to win!" is what keeps getting in his way. He could get on facebook tomorrow and admit he was wrong about how he acted and accept the consequences of his reputation while showing he's trying to do better and I bet you most of the trolling shit he gets might stop. Oh it'll take a long time to completely stop and won't 100% go away because weens will be weens but he'd get less because teh lack of reaction to them makes him a boring target and gives him a shot at some peace online. IRL is another mess altogether because as long as he does stupid autistic shit in stores where people have camera phones his antics are going to get posted and laughed at.

I do agree some of the trolling was way beyond fucked up but what's done is done. Chris was funny for awhile but now he's just a sad middle aged autistic person who is clueless about how to change his situation and doesn't know how to ask for help or is too stuck in the belief that any help he gets is trolls because of his paranoia. I do think the trolling contributed bigtime to his paranoia now so maybe he did learn a little something even if it was to his detriment.

 

[Thetan]

Can I ask was the Gal Pal thing Chosen as the Path of Least resistance or because it's a known working tactic? If you could change it what "Stalking Horse" would you have chosen?

"Renee" was a "gal pal" in the "purest" sense. She made it clear from the beginning that she had no interest in a sexual relationship with Chris. This was very calculated on my part. I didn't want to put myself in a position where I was trying to coerce good behavior out of Chris with the promise of possible china. Renee was an Internet friend (they're not uncommon). I thought I made this quite clear to Chris.

If Renee had been male, she never would have received a response.

The thing is though, that that's mainly all you do... Make suggestions or try to "nudge" him. In my relationships with people I do very little advice-giving, mainly in my relations with people it is a sharing of interests and if they have concerns, we discuss them. I see very little discussion, so basically veiling it as "friendly suggestions" doesn't cut it at all.



This confuses me. On one hand you're saying "I'm a better influence than his own mother!" and "I am genuinely trying to help him" and on the other you are saying "I couldn't trust him with even knowing who I am". Clearly you wanted to have some sort of role in his life in order to manipulate him into doing what you felt would be best for him, but you are frustrated that he would not accept the parameters of the relationship that you desired. And as for being a better influence than his mother? When he didn't give in, you packed up shop and walked away. My God...


Ever think he brushed it off because he found it personally insulting?

I'm walking away because I agree with @Absinthe. I don't want the personal liability. If that makes me a quitter or a bad person.... whatever. In Chris's current state, who knows what could set him off?

I didn't want any "role" in Chris's life, I was a casual acquaintance, an Internet friend (like I said, they're not uncommon). Do you have Facebook or Twitter friends? Are you actively involved in their lives or do you just chat with them on the Internet? Friends, casual or otherwise, give unsolicited advice all the time, most people seem OK with this. If someone offers me advice that I don't argee with, then maybe we'll have a discussion or, if it's something I find offensive or distasteful, I'll break off communication with that person. None of this is out of the ordinary.

And yes I am a better influence that his psychotic paranoid mother - almost ANYONE is. This is a woman who convinced Chris that their neighbors were breeding specially trained assassin snakes and setting them loose in their house, she also convinced Chris that Michael Snyder "faked" his injuries. Barb is an absolute fucking menace; she's toxic to Chris and the sooner he's away from her the better.

Getting Chris away from Barb may be the "silver lining" in all of this.

 

[Le Bateleur]

I'm walking away because I agree with @Absinthe. I don't want the personal liability. If that makes me a quitter or a bad person.... whatever. In Chris's current state, who knows what could set him off?

I didn't want any "role" in Chris's life, I was a casual acquaintance, an Internet friend (like I said, they're not uncommon). Do you have Facebook or Twitter friends? Are you actively involved in their lives or do you just chat with them on the Internet? Friends, casual or otherwise, give unsolicited advice all the time, most people seem OK with this. If someone offers me advice that I don't argee with, then maybe we'll have a discussion or, if it's something I find offensive or distasteful, I'll break off communication with that person. None of this is out of the ordinary.

And yes I am a better influence that his psychotic paranoid mother - almost ANYONE is. This is a woman who convinced Chris that their neighbors were breeding specially trained assassin snakes and setting them loose in their house, she also convinced Chris that Michael Snyder "faked" his injuries. Barb is an absolute fucking menace; she's toxic to Chris and the sooner he's away from her the better.

Getting Chris away from Barb may be the "silver lining" in all of this.

I just saw that text from Chris you posted. Damn. What a mess he is. I'm sorry this happened to you. Try not to feel bad, no-one could ever say you didn't try.

It's not easy to watch someone walk down the road to ruin.

 

[Thetan]

I just saw that text from Chris you posted. Damn. What a mess he is. I'm sorry this happened to you. Try not to feel bad, no-one could ever say you didn't try.

It's not easy to watch someone walk down the road to ruin.

That last message just kind of solidified everything for me, it made it apparent just how mentally unstable Chris is. If there ever was a time to get out, it's now.

 

[Cuck Norris]

That last message just kind of solidified everything for me, it made it apparent just how mentally unstable Chris is. If there ever was a time to get out, it's now.

I'm not going to lecture you on why this was a bad idea from the start, and I genuinely identify if you felt actual empathy for Chris given the way he's acted. I understand your motivation, but it's the perfect example of why, imo, it's just not worth it to get involved with Chris (directly) in any way.

 

[Thetan]

The social venue that Renee suggested to Chris was a bowling league put together by the folks at Impulse Gay Social club. It's inexpensive ($10) and it would have been a nice evening of bowling, pizza, and casual conversation for Chris.

I'm mentioning it now, because Chris never showed any interest and I'm not communicating with him anymore. When I was pushing the idea though, I kept quiet because I didn't want weens showing up and ruining things for Chris.

Now, in retrospect, I'm glad he didn't go. Could you imagine some poor gay guy trying to start a friendly conversation with Chris in his current state? He'd be convinced the guy was putting the moves on him and would probably pepper spray him in "self defense".

Again, I'm disgusted that Barb is sending Chris out to run errands in Wal-Mart when she has to know that he's been banned from there. Considering her behavior at The Game Place years ago, she could very well be egging Chris on, telling him that the bans are unenforceable (or something equally dangerous).