Snowflake Christine Milneaux - Munchie who came here to sperg [PM sneasel if you wanna do a proper OP on this tard]

[Or Else What]

I did read an article with quotes about some shop girls from the Victorian era who worked at higher-end clothiers and were locked into their corsets by the owner at the start of every day and let out after work. They were required to wear painfully tightlaced corsets on the job because it made them more appealing.

Young girls were often trained up into corsets from a very young age, put in stays (a pseudo-corset) as soon as 6. Girls at boarding school would often be made to sleep in their tight stays and would be tied into them with complicated knots to stop them from trying to take them off, and they would be cinched smaller and smaller over the years to train their waists small. So no, they were much more restrictive than a bra and panties today.

Edit: can we just rename this thread Victorian Apprecation Thread? If we delete @Christine Milneaux’s posts it’ll be perfect.

E: fixed lousy mobile typing

The shopgirl locks and extreme boarding school training never happened, they were fetish fantasies devised and detailed (in lavishly detailed drawings and long-running stories and pseudo-readers' sent-in experiences) by John Willie in his 1950s magazine Bizarre. Bondage of females was the big thing with him but corsets featured almost as prominently, and especially the BDSM themes of enforced 'training'. Certain features - and the themes represented - were reprinted and discussed and expanded upon in assorted underground fetish mags in the 1970s. Then Taschen (German publishers of inter alia coffee-table pageturners for the classier perv) reprinted the entire run in a 2-volume set in the 1990s. (I have it). Extracts were soon featured on Usenet and so onwards.

John Willie - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

However, 'bodices' and stays for younger girls were a thing from the mid 18th century but were never even a junior version of the stereotype of Victorian/Edwardian tight-lacing. After all, the primary aim of such adult garments then was to support the breasts, and what happened to the midriff, waist and hips varied according to resources, fashion, age and need. Tight-lacing was a distinct thing, discussed in ladies mags and practised (or said to be) by only a few; most mothers frowned upon it, but there were always the carefully retouched photo-portraits of royalty and society ladies to suggest an ideal and pretend to be 'natural' and 'realistic' - the same way that Instagram etc does now. Practically every photograph of the icons of that era had the waist whittle down to an extreme extent, sort of like an early 'Photoshop Fail'.

Yeah, there was a type of anemia doctors saw quite a bit in women, and especially younger women, called chlorosis that drastically decreased when tight lacing went out of fashion. No hard scientific data but it doesn’t seem entirely coincidental either.

The link with corsetry was entirely incidental. Tight-lacing was not at all the widespread practice imagined (see spergs supra) . The anaemia was due to female adolescents not getting the iron they needed. Back then girls from poorer families were invariably last priority for the little meat available for family dinners, and girls from more comfortable backgrounds either 1) had mothers whose knowledge of nutrition for children and teens was woeful (basically they were supposed to live on bread and milk, and it took WWI and the new science of nutrition for such advice to get the elbow) or 2) not uncommonly used food as a control/weapon in ways similar to today's definitions and practices of EDs. For eg, one craze was the wanting to recline in pallid but soulful brave repose as a Rossetti type overcome by philosophy and oh!everything!.

 

[Kate Farms Shill]

No one ever brings up the humble day dress or “Mother Hubbard” worn by Victorian women when they weren’t getting dressed up to go out, which was designed to be worn without a corset for maximum comfort. Subsequently spread to Polynesia by missionaries, and remains popular to this day on some islands because it protects from the sun but allows a lot of air flow.



Or the “safety corset” a predecessor of the girdle made with elasticated panels to give the desired breast support while allowing more freedom of movement and comfort.

Or that one of the major reforms women wanted was a corset that would provide them back and breast support but that they could lace and adjust themselves. The solution was fan lacing, where the laces are connected to straps that can be pulled and “locked” at the desired tightness without help or ruining the silhouette of your garments.



The vain Victorian fashion victim dying for a look is a dumb myth.

 

[MistressCaridad]

Once again @Kate Farms Shill coming with the good shit we can all learn from despite all the sperging from third parties this thread has been actually pretty educational in a wide variety of topics.

 

[Or Else What]

No one ever brings up the humble day dress or “Mother Hubbard” worn by Victorian women when they weren’t getting dressed up to go out, which was designed to be worn without a corset for maximum comfort...

aka the British 'tea gown'.

Downton Abbey Season 2: Teagowns and relaxation

My regular Jane Austen readers have been patient as I succumbed to Downton Abbey fever and began to cover events 100 years after Jane Austen’s death. Customs changed during that intervening c…

janeaustensworld.wordpress.com

These were also ideal garments to keep on (being comparatively easy to take off) for that less-respectable social occasion following afternoon tea: that being the usual time when the distinguished, rich, lover visited his mistress in those couple of hours between running the world and assuming grand paterfamilias status at dinner.

 

[homewayhalf]

As long as we’re debunking Victorian myths, Dickens was not paid by the word. He was paid by installments. They could have been however long he wanted them to be, people just loved to read his stories and his language is just how he wrote. He wasn’t out there counting his words. Book sperging over.

 

[Libtard-Wrecking Krogoth]

this thread became weirdly interesting suddenly

 

[AbraCadaver]

this thread became weirdly interesting suddenly

Well Christine was desperate to have a positive impact on others and be an inspiration online, and she’s sort of achieved that by leaving. She’s made the thread a better place by not being here. So mission accomplished?

A historical-accounts Victorian book I would recommend is Beautiful Forever, about a charlatan cosmetics and beauty products purveyor named Madame Rachel. It’s a good account of her starting out selling potatoes to factory workers and moving up, all the absurd claims she made about her beauty treatments, how she got her business all the way to Bond Street and oh by the way, blackmailing every other society lady who bought things from her.

She had a claim to make women “beautiful forever” with “forever” face enamelling...a kind of permanent makeup claim, which of course was anything but, and a treatment of it cost like a year’s salary. She also tricked at least one old woman into paying every cent she had to Rachel, after convincing her that a certain lord was madly in love with her and going to marry her and she needed to get ready for the wedding. All correspondence conducted through Rachel by letters, of course.

Just crazy rubbish you can’t even make up She was in and out of court constantly and infuriated the court because she was a tough woman who refused to sit quietly or be talked over. Also a con artist, but you know. A good read.

 

[heathercho]

Isn't Christine supposed to be a weeb? I do wonder why she never latched onto Meiji era fashions and lifestyle.

 

[Libtard-Wrecking Krogoth]

Well Christine was desperate to have a positive impact on others and be an inspiration online, and she’s sort of achieved that by leaving. She’s made the thread a better place by not being here. So mission accomplished?

A historical-accounts Victorian book I would recommend is Beautiful Forever, about a charlatan cosmetics and beauty products purveyor named Madame Rachel. It’s a good account of her starting out selling potatoes to factory workers and moving up, all the absurd claims she made about her beauty treatments, how she got her business all the way to Bond Street and oh by the way, blackmailing every other society lady who bought things from her.

She had a claim to make women “beautiful forever” with “forever” face enamelling...a kind of permanent makeup claim, which of course was anything but, and a treatment of it cost like a year’s salary. She also tricked at least one old woman into paying every cent she had to Rachel, after convincing her that a certain lord was madly in love with her and going to marry her and she needed to get ready for the wedding. All correspondence conducted through Rachel by letters, of course.

Just crazy rubbish you can’t even make up She was in and out of court constantly and infuriated the court because she was a tough woman who refused to sit quietly or be talked over. Also a con artist, but you know. A good read.

and here i was just hoping to stumble across maybe some revealing pics she forgot to delet and someone else found, but instead i learned a bunch of stuff about the victorian era. thanks kiwi farms!

 

[yummy hand sanitizer]

I have to say, I love this thread. Not because of Christine (who's boring as hell) but all the talk of historical fashion and medicine is fascinating.

 

[Recoil]

Fun aside for fellow fashion nerds, Ripley had a corset built into her uniform, it was fashioned out of a MIG pilot's pressure suit, creating a bit of a pun in action. The waif like Victorian garment is re-envisioned as tech wear for a tough as nails female survivor.

 

[Queen Of The Harpies]

It depends on the type of corset you’re talking about.

Spoiler: Corset sperg with large images

The hook and loop style corsets were primarily to support the weight of dresses that were made of heavy fabric (so the skirt wouldn’t pull away from the bodice) and also to smooth the underwear out. They often had steel boning as an added support but weren’t all that tight.

View attachment 788155

(Just for reference, this one also has garter straps to hold the stockings, it’s actually from the early 1900s so a little later than the time frame we’re talking about but that’s the premise)

Men often also wore hook and loop corsets under their suits to make their clothes lie smooth and flat.

View attachment 788159

Tight lacing, on the other hand, was a completely different animal and could be detrimental to one’s health.
View attachment 788161

Taken to an extreme, it fucked one’s rib cage and abdominal organs and caused the back muscles to atrophy. (Interesting article about tight lacing and health below)

The dangers of tight lacing: the effects of the corset — Royal College of Surgeons

A look at the medical effects of tight corsets as worn by women in the 18th and 19th centuries.

www.rcseng.ac.uk

So basically it depends on the type and how they’re fitted.

I have inserted pictures to give you all a sense of how damaging corsets really were. The last picture is of Cathie Jung who took waist training to the extreme. https://www.cathiejung.com/index.htm


Also this fag for equal representation: https://gracieopulanza.com/mr-pearl-can-men-wear-corsets/

 

[Kate Farms Shill]

I'd like to add another recommendation to the "Victorian women were not all fainting waifs" list.

Bringing Down the Colonel is about a woman who had an affair with an army Colonel, William Breckenridge who was running for Congress. He promised to marry her and when he broke it off, she sued him for breach of contract. Doing this exposed not only the affair and some other shocking unladylike behavior on her part, but even more shocking than that, she won. In part because his own sister-in-law was a women's movement leader who turned popular opinions against him.

Fun aside for fellow fashion nerds, Ripley had a corset built into her uniform, it was fashioned out of a MIG pilot's pressure suit, creating a bit of a pun in action. The waif like Victorian garment is re-envisioned as tech wear for a tough as nails female survivor.
View attachment 790887

This is my favourite post on this thread, holy shit. How did I never notice this?

 

[Recoil]

I'd like to add another recommendation to the "Victorian women were not all fainting waifs" list.

Bringing Down the Colonel is about a woman who had an affair with an army Colonel, William Breckenridge who was running for Congress. He promised to marry her and when he broke it off, she sued him for breach of contract. Doing this exposed not only the affair and some other shocking unladylike behavior on her part, but even more shocking than that, she won. In part because his own sister-in-law was a women's movement leader who turned popular opinions against him.


This is my favourite post on this thread, holy shit. How did I never notice this?

Yhank you! Hey, if you ever want to talk about the costume designs in these flicks, I'm an autistic encyclopedia RE: Ridley Scott character design and LOVE talking style.

 

[AbraCadaver]

Damn I never noticed that! Clever!

 

[Burn Book]

Isn't Christine supposed to be a weeb? I do wonder why she never latched onto Meiji era fashions and lifestyle.

That would require effort, research and actually being interested in something. The extend of her knowledge about the period in history that supposedly fascinates her so much is that Jane Austen existed and that cheap, shit quality costume dresses look kinda retro.

 

[Or Else What]

Yhank you! Hey, if you ever want to talk about the costume designs in these flicks, I'm an autistic encyclopedia RE: Ridley Scott character design and LOVE talking style.

One astonishing thing (amongst many, for it is a truly special film) about Alien (1979) is how well the clothing and set design has held up (with the obvious but forgiveable exception of 'Mother' - the room-sized disco-light computer). The 1970s 'New Hollywood' movie industry thought they avoided the obvious mistakes of those expensive, turgid 1950's epics which had biblical-era characters in nylon togas and false eyelashes, or the late 1960s turkeys like Nicholas and Alexandra and that Henry VIII one with (mmm) Genevieve Bujold - all backcombing and pale lipstick. But they hadn't - and nothing dated so fast and so thoroughly as the late 1970s looks. Yet not only did Alien avoid the cliches of sci-fi with its industrial 'used future' sets but that pared-down, army-surplus style workwear costuming, and the unadorned, tousled appearance of the characters was - and remains - remarkably timeless. None of the collars were big, none of the pants legs flared, there was no 1970s facial hair on show. But like 'Mother', there is one exception IMHO - Sigourney Weaver's poodle perm. But she gets away with it.

 

[Recoil]

One astonishing thing (amongst many, for it is a truly special film) about Alien (1979) is how well the clothing and set design has held up (with the obvious but forgiveable exception of 'Mother' - the room-sized disco-light computer). The 1970s 'New Hollywood' movie industry thought they avoided the obvious mistakes of those expensive, turgid 1950's epics which had biblical-era characters in nylon togas and false eyelashes, or the late 1960s turkeys like Nicholas and Alexandra and that Henry VIII one with (mmm) Genevieve Bujold - all backcombing and pale lipstick. But they hadn't - and nothing dated so fast and so thoroughly as the late 1970s looks. Yet not only did Alien avoid the cliches of sci-fi with its industrial 'used future' sets but that pared-down, army-surplus style workwear costuming, and the unadorned, tousled appearance of the characters was - and remains - remarkably timeless. None of the collars were big, none of the pants legs flared, there was no 1970s facial hair on show. But like 'Mother', there is one exception IMHO - Sigourney Weaver's poodle perm. But she gets away with it.

There's one more, I've talked about it on the farms before. It's the low rise skimpy cut of Weavers panties at the end of the film.
The entire movie bombards us with fear and feelings of disgust.
At the end of it all when weaver disrobes for hypersleep and we know it's over, a shot of the protagonist's body and her alluring state of undress gives us something stand out and distinctly human:

By virtue of set up and contrast I think it's one of the finest costuming choices in the whole film.


This is "Westworld".
I know this is a stretch, but I always thought the shape of those iron bars that hold her guts in call to mind a corset or other overly complex victorian garment. the patterns in that metal frame are almost making me think of lace or ribbon.

 

[$hakerattle]

I neither need or wish for condolences. I walked away from something with a 75% kill rate.
Most people who are hit with a debilitating medical crisis or chronic illness feel similar. We fight to get some semblance of our lives back. We don't want condolences for what has happened to us, we want people to know how hard we have worked in therapy to get as far as we have. We want less pills, not more. We don't rearrange our bedrooms around ourselves over and over again while we lie in bed. We rearrange our entire lives as we move through a world that will never be the same.
Most of all, we get the fuck on with it.
You wish to be "in" with "chronic illness influencers" but fail to see why actual people with actual conditions will never be a part of that community, be " influenced by you or any of the other malignant narcissists like you,and find you at best silly, or at worst offensive or dangerous. I leave you with this, a very intimate portrait of me, no, it's not in oil, it's what a left parietal stroke looks like after the body has removed all the dead tissue. You are left with a giant black hole where brain used to be. I don't have a single fainting couch. I walk, I talk, you wouldn't even know by looking at me.
Because I got the fuck on with it. Which is what I'm doing now. You will never listen, or learn, or grow the fuck up. You absolutely cannot take responsibility for yourself. You'd actually rather have a disease than handle your shit. That's pathetic. My condolences. I'm out. @ me or pm me if any body wants me.

View attachment 786939

Edit: I appreciate all the feels, but cough me up some winners because I'm a goddamn badass.

Well, shit. @Toasty basically said everything I wanted to say. This girl will never be a "chronically ill influencer" or whatever because people who are actually ill just fucking get on with their lives. Whining about having a job? Please. Actually ill people miss their jobs - stress, shit, and all - because they were independent, had decent health insurance, and made good money. Others would give anything to work, just to do something fucking normal and have some stimulation.

This girl is to actually sick people what troons are to real transgender people. I'd say that someone should give Jan a warning but I doubt she would comprehend it.

At least this thread was fun for literary references and shit. Hey, I've got one. This girl is basically Emmeline Grangerford from Huck Finn.

 

[Recoil]

Well, shit. @Toasty basically said everything I wanted to say. This girl will never be a "chronically ill influencer" or whatever because people who are actually ill just fucking get on with their lives. Whining about having a job? Please. Actually ill people miss their jobs - stress, shit, and all - because they were independent, had decent health insurance, and made good money. Others would give anything to work, just to do something fucking normal and have some stimulation.

This girl is to actually sick people what troons are to real transgender people. I'd say that someone should give Jan a warning but I doubt she would comprehend it.

At least this thread was fun for literary references and shit. Hey, I've got one. This girl is basically Emmeline Grangerford from Huck Finn.

Another good analogy - Chrissy Munch is the kind of girl who'd wear blackface to a lynching and weep openly.

Spoiler: Emmy Granger is the OG Chrissy

Emmeline Grangerford is a 'sentimental' artist.

Huck is inspecting the art of Emmeline and expressing his feelings about them in the text.
If you read Huck’s explanations without examining the underlying meanings you will find that Huck is completely clueless as to the artists’ sentimental intentions. He evaluates one picture called “Shall I Never See Thee More Alas” by describing a woman “under a weeping willow” (Twain 119) in a graveyard, another picture with a woman “crying into a handkerchief”, and yet another with a crying woman about to jump off a bridge. All three of these illustrations are obvious cliches of sentimental art of the 19th century.
Huck looks at the images and simply sees “nice pictures”, not realizing the intent of the artist, Emmeline. His lack of understanding lets Twain shit on purple prose faggotry. Point of the passage is to poke fun at the sentimentalists’. He makes Huck’s similes ugly, such as bulges on a dress looking “like a cabbage” and “black slippers, like a chisel” to mock the tryhard faggotry which was popular at the time that he wrote the book.