Off-Topic Let's talk about second-wave radical feminism - Dynastia's Daycare for the emotionally troubled.

[TerribleIdeas™]

This isn't particularly radfem to say, but it's just a fact that the construction trades don't attract many women. Not because the guys are being assholes, but 1) because most women are less physically strong, 2) are less interested and 3) have less aptitude overall in spatial visualization and applied mechanics. I know point 3 will be controversial and I'm not saying all women. But I think this because, basically, these are relatively high paying jobs. Probably the highest paid that you can get with a HS diploma. Second-wavers have been pushing for going on 40 years that women can do these jobs, the public sector/unions have had recruiting campaigns that long, and yet very few women succeed.

Maybe not 100% in disagreement, but I've found that the tradeswomen I've known seem to gravitate toward detail oriented trades, like specialty welding, finishing carpentry, cabinet-making., and less towards roofing, concrete, and the rest of the backbreaker trades.

 

[DuckSucker]

women are not even real

Of course not, not originally. They come out of pods, you have to go into a cocoon and transition into one, silly. That's why Johnathan has done and why he's an honest woman.

 

[2nd_time_user]

Maybe not 100% in disagreement, but I've found that the tradeswomen I've known seem to gravitate toward detail oriented trades, like specialty welding, finishing carpentry, cabinet-making., and less towards roofing, concrete, and the rest of the backbreaker trades.

I've noticed this too. Again, not saying all women are naturally less gifted in spatial visualization and applied mechanics. Some definitely are. But then there's the physical aspect. A 6'2, 230 pound male in even half-decent shape is gonna be able to lift more weight and repetitively than say a 120 pound female even if she CrossFits every day. I've known men who pour concrete for freeways, who install glass in commercial structures. Those are $100,000 union jobs with a HS diploma, but require the ability to not only hold but manipulate a 150-200 pound breakable object with others is absolutely essential.

Part of the second-wavers ideology has been that "anything boys can do, girls can do better." Not always.

 

[HG 400]

It's entirely reasonable to say "You know what, there's a shit-ton of opinions in that ideological movement over there that I don't agree with, so I'm not going to associate myself with them"

That is entirely reasonable, but most people generally wouldn't follow it up writing massive online arguments against feminism that frequently draw from the well of 'feminists who said mean things'. You're clearly more invested than just choosing not to be one, and that's fine. It just seems internally inconsistent to me. I'd have assumed that anyone posting on kiwifarms would see guilt-by-association smears as a miscarriage of justice, but if you don't see it that way that's fine.

 

[TerribleIdeas™]

I've noticed this too. Again, not saying all women are naturally less gifted in spatial visualization and applied mechanics. Some definitely are. But then there's the physical aspect. A 6'2, 230 pound male in even half-decent shape is gonna be able to lift more weight and repetitively than say a 120 pound female even if she CrossFits every day. I've known men who pour concrete for freeways, who install glass in commercial structures. Those are $100,000 union jobs with a HS diploma, but require the ability to not only hold but manipulate a 150-200 pound breakable object with others is absolutely essential.

Part of the second-wavers ideology has been that "anything boys can do, girls can do better." Not always.

I've heard it suggested that because women have finer manual dexterity, they excel with the fine detail work of fine carpentry, lacework, jewelry, fine welding and brazing, and similar. The suggested reason for it on the evolutionary level is that having increased tactile sensitivity and finer manual dexterity meant a greater capacity for identifying the source of a child's discomfort, and detecting if foods had faults. There's really no way to be certain that's the case, obviously, but it at least sounds somewhat plausible, and I haven't seen any other explanations floated for it that make any more sense than that.

That is entirely reasonable, but most people generally wouldn't follow it up writing massive online arguments against feminism that frequently draw from the well of 'feminists who said mean things'. You're clearly more invested than just choosing not to be one, and that's fine. It just seems internally inconsistent to me. I'd have assumed that anyone posting on kiwifarms would see guilt-by-association smears as a miscarriage of justice, but if you don't see it that way that's fine.

I don't see it as internally inconsistent, because I still don't see KF as hving an ideological goal beyond laughing at lolcows, while feminism, MRAs, BLM, and numerous other groups I intentionally disassociate myself from do have ideological goals, and I find those goals to be at odds with their statements and actions.

There's also the fact that the majority of my posts have been specific to the 2 phenomena that were being discussed, and my criticism of feminism was interspersed, where appropriate; you can claim I was writing walls of text about feminism, but the posts are there, and I was pretty clearly arguing about the opinions on autonomy being put forth here being at odds with widespread opinions on autonomy, ones held by more than just feminists.

 

[FI 665]

I've heard it suggested that because women have finer manual dexterity, they excel with the fine detail work of fine carpentry, lacework, jewelry, fine welding and brazing, and similar. The suggested reason for it on the evolutionary level is that having increased tactile sensitivity and finer manual dexterity meant a greater capacity for identifying the source of a child's discomfort, and detecting if foods had faults. There's really no way to be certain that's the case, obviously, but it at least sounds somewhat plausible, and I haven't seen any other explanations floated for it that make any more sense than that.

It's not that we evolved any greater dexterity when we missed carrying heavy loads, we just have smaller fingers.

 

[RE 374]

I've noticed this too. Again, not saying all women are naturally less gifted in spatial visualization and applied mechanics. Some definitely are. But then there's the physical aspect. A 6'2, 230 pound male in even half-decent shape is gonna be able to lift more weight and repetitively than say a 120 pound female even if she CrossFits every day. I've known men who pour concrete for freeways, who install glass in commercial structures. Those are $100,000 union jobs with a HS diploma, but require the ability to not only hold but manipulate a 150-200 pound breakable object with others is absolutely essential.

Part of the second-wavers ideology has been that "anything boys can do, girls can do better." Not always.

I'm not hip on the lingo for second wave/third wave, but I've noticed modern feminism seems to ignore a lot of basic biology. Women are generally smaller and physically weaker than men, hence why they have their own sports teams. Since we're in the Yaniv forum, I suppose this is a good place to point out things like menstruation can cause most women to be debilitated to some degree for at least 1-3 days a month even barring complications like endometriosis, cysts or fibroids which is another disadvantage to extremely physical jobs.

 

[TerribleIdeas™]

It's not that we evolved any greater dexterity when we missed carrying heavy loads, we just have smaller fingers.

I'm pretty sure that even men with smaller hands lose out in fine manual dexterity and sensitivity to women, but I won't say that hand size doesn't play into it, alongside the other things I mentioned.

I'm not hip on the lingo for second wave/third wave, but I've noticed modern feminism seems to ignore a lot of basic biology. Women are generally smaller and physically weaker than men, hence why they have their own sports teams. Since we're in the Yaniv forum, I suppose this is a good place to point out things like menstruation can cause most women to be debilitated to some degree for at least 1-3 days a month even barring complications like endometriosis, cysts or fibroids which is another disadvantage to extremely physical jobs.

Typically speaking, the bulk of the feminists I see that are biology denialists are social constructionists, who believe that men and women can be socialized to be the exact same, physically, culturally, intellectually, and psychologically. Far as I can tell, it was somewhat known in the 2nd wave, but I want to say it was a rather late philosophical development in the 2nd wave. At any rate, that belief also convinces them that Muslims and other such groups can be socially integrated, and they'll just start being super progressive, as a result. That's resulted in the whole immigration shitshow that is the EU, right now.

Edit - a particularly important word.

 

[2nd_time_user]

I've heard it suggested that because women have finer manual dexterity, the excel with the fine detail work of fine carpentry, lacework, jewelry, fine welding and brazing, and similar. The suggested reason for it on the evolutionary level is that having increased tactile sensitivity and finer manual dexterity meant a greater capacity for identifying the source of a child's discomfort, and detecting if foods had faults. There's really no way to be certain that's the case, obviously, but it at least sounds somewhat plausible, and I haven't seen any other explanations floated for it that make any more sense than that.

I think it's fair to state that men and women are fundamentally different both biologically and socially. Meaning their world view and lived experiences can be drastically different due to both these factors. As you've seen here. As far as transwomen, I think this is largely a phenom due to betas extrapolating that because alphas pick on them, because women aren't as attracted to them, they get an instapass because saying they're women is easier for some than admitting they're effeminate or enjoy wearing women's clothing.

 

[Okkervils]

I suppose this is a good place to point out things like menstruation can cause most women to be debilitated to some degree for at least 1-3 days a month even barring complications like endometriosis, cysts or fibroids which is another disadvantage to extremely physical jobs.

lol wut

 

[TerribleIdeas™]

I think it's fair to state that men and women are fundamentally different both biologically and socially. Meaning their world view and lived experiences can be drastically different due to both these factors. As you've seen here. As far as transwomen, I think this is largely a phenom due to betas extrapolating that because alphas pick on them, because women aren't as attracted to them, they get an instapass because saying they're women is easier for some than admitting they're effeminate or enjoy wearing women's clothing.

I think the combination of low success prospects, and the loudly proclaimed narrative that "white straight men are the entirety of everything wrong ever!" drives a lot of the troonery and trans-ternderism, but I'm not going to say I've read all the psychology (what there is of it) that claims to discuss the matter.

 

[RE 374]

lol wut

I worded that wrong. I meant there's discomfort, bloating, and tiredness a lot of time. I didn't mean to make it sound like a physical disability.

 

[2nd_time_user]

I think the combination of low success prospects, and the loudly proclaimed narrative that "white straight men are the entirety of everything wrong ever!" drives a lot of the troonery and trans-ternderism, but I'm not going to say I've read all the psychology (what there is of it) that claims to discuss the matter.

It's true that white straight dudes mostly run the Western Hemisphere (and by white I am including Jewish), and I think a good number of trans of either sex are identifying out because of an external beef. But there's no changing of physical reality. FTMs even if passing are seen as hobbity short betas. I knew one. She never used the male bathroom not for fear of being raped, not for fear that men would challenge her, but because of the inevitable behind-her-back sniggering that would occur among staff and male public that would occur.

The MTFs meanwhile are largely seen as males wanting to get their way (like JY and the ma'am guy) because, well, they are. To them they're convinced that behind the back sniggering is a hate crime that must be actionable immediately, despite that no woman esp a racial minority has thought that seriously ever. And if they come into the women's, women are going to be legit alarmed not bemused. The MTFs see this as oppression.

 

[TerribleIdeas™]

It's true that white straight dudes mostly run the Western Hemisphere (and by white I am including Jewish), and I think a good number of trans of either sex are identifying out because of an external beef. But there's no changing of physical reality. FTMs even if passing are seen as hobbity short betas. I knew one. She never used the male bathroom not for fear of being raped, not for fear that men would challenge her, but because of the inevitable behind-her-back sniggering that would occur among staff and male public that would occur.

The MTFs meanwhile are largely seen as males wanting to get their way (like JY and the ma'am guy) because, well, they are. And if they come into the women's, women are going to be legit alarmed not bemused. The MTFs see this as oppression because well, most women can tell males from females.

If you recall Norah Vincent, I think she said she was approached several times by men how thought she was an effeminate, probably bi or gay man. As far as the MtF, I've seen some that pass, but they're consistently much smaller than the average male, and I've also met 6'0" women on a more than average basis, throughout my life. I'd expect that anywhere where men tend to be taller, slender, effeminate men might appear to pass better, but generally, the tall MtF stand out pretty obviously.

 

[Munchma Quchi]

i'm back with an anecdote instead of data but one friend of mine submitted over a dozen resumes for construction work and didn't get a phonecall back. She made one change to her resume - she shortened her female name to a nickname that appeared masculine. She got three calls back the next day.

edited to add: i mention this by way of asserting that there might not necessarily be less women in trades due to less women actually wanting to be in trades

 

[TerribleIdeas™]

i'm back with an anecdote instead of data but one friend of mine submitted over a dozen resumes for construction work and didn't get a phonecall back. She made one change to her resume - she shortened her female name to a nickname that appeared masculine. She got three calls back the next day.

I knew a woman whose boss refused to call her by her name, because he didn't like that the company had assigned her to his crew, and made a nickname out of her initials. On the other hand, I've known greenhats that were called "Stanley" until they earned a nickname of their own, because greenhats are usually useless tools, until they develop some skills.

Edit - fuck off, phone with your autocracked.

 

[2nd_time_user]

i'm back with an anecdote instead of data but one friend of mine submitted over a dozen resumes for construction work and didn't get a phonecall back. She made one change to her resume - she shortened her female name to a nickname that appeared masculine. She got three calls back the next day.

edited to add: i mention this by way of asserting that there might not necessarily be less women in trades due to less women actually wanting to be in trades

To be clear, I do think that sexism exists in all trades. I don't think it's right to assume women have to be spotters or flagwomen or do paperwork just because they're women even if more women than men can't. Try them out with observable metrics. If they can lift their end of a 170 pound pane or concrete piece and seat it correctly, well that's the major part of many jobs that require this.

I knew a woman whose boss refused to call her by her name, because he didn't like that the company had assigned her to his crew, and made a nickname out of her initials. On the other hand, I've known greenhats that were called "Stanley" until they earned a nickname of their own, because greenhats are usually useless tools, until they develop some skills.

If someone's calling everyone else by their names but singles someone out and refuses to use their legal name, that's harassment. There's no reason they can't do that. Them calling people green OTOH is like people calling others "newbs" or "rookies." No harassment there.

As to nicknames. I think they're also largely ok in a workplace context but there's just common sense.

 

[Yellow Yam Scam]

Nah, I'm in my 20's. You just keep conflating two subsets of porn that have nothing to do with each other. Getting gangbanged at a set and taking coochie photos are completely two different jobs. The girl taking coochie photos or solo dildoing a cam show is clearly more "liberated". However, there will always be the girl that will opt to go get gangbanged. That is the girl I am talking about. You seem to think that porn production companies are magically going to die because someone like Belle Delphine has a patreon. Not gonna happen. As long as these production companies are going to pay girls to make movies, the girls are going to be there. This was the whole goofy argument that people had with record labels and the internet. Record labels still exist in the days of patreon, youtube, itunes, torrents, etc. Artists still willingly sign to them even though there are more independent routes one could take.

I wasn't even trying to make a political statement about porn. There will always be women that will sell their body in a myriad of ways. They usually have had fucked up lives but you can't stop them, so whatever. I don't feel like it is anyone's right to stop them either. I do think it is nearly always predatory and will have negative psychological effects on the woman. Cam girl or gang bang. It isn't an ideal job was really my whole point.

I guess I assumed that you were making an argument against the feminist idea of porn being liberating considering that it's a difference between second and third wave feminism, but if I was off-base, my fault. I just feel like the conflating comes in assuming that those kinds of porn really have any meaningful connection anymore. One is utterly ignored and the other is exalted.

 

[tuscangarder]

Maybe not 100% in disagreement, but I've found that the tradeswomen I've known seem to gravitate toward detail oriented trades, like specialty welding, finishing carpentry, cabinet-making., and less towards roofing, concrete, and the rest of the backbreaker trades.

This just proves women have a higher IQ than men. Who the fuck wants to be a roofer if you can make pretty cabinets?

 

[TerribleIdeas™]

This just proves women have a higher IQ than men. Who the fuck wants to be a roofer if you can make pretty cabinets?

People that realize that until you're selling those pretty cabinets to clients with $1m homes or business locations, roofing pays vastly better, especially if you're quick with the gun, or really good on the torch.