US Cloudflare: "Terminating Service for 8Chan"


Terminating Service for 8Chan

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August 05, 2019 1:44AM


The mass shootings in El Paso, Texas and Dayton, Ohio are horrific tragedies. In the case of the El Paso shooting, the suspected terrorist gunman appears to have been inspired by the forum website known as 8chan. Based on evidence we've seen, it appears that he posted a screed to the site immediately before beginning his terrifying attack on the El Paso Walmart killing 20 people.

Unfortunately, this is not an isolated incident. Nearly the same thing happened on 8chan before the terror attack in Christchurch, New Zealand. The El Paso shooter specifically referenced the Christchurch incident and appears to have been inspired by the largely unmoderated discussions on 8chan which glorified the previous massacre. In a separate tragedy, the suspected killer in the Poway, California synagogue shooting also posted a hate-filled “open letter” on 8chan. 8chan has repeatedly proven itself to be a cesspool of hate.

8chan is among the more than 19 million Internet properties that use Cloudflare's service. We just sent notice that we are terminating 8chan as a customer effective at midnight tonight Pacific Time. The rationale is simple: they have proven themselves to be lawless and that lawlessness has caused multiple tragic deaths. Even if 8chan may not have violated the letter of the law in refusing to moderate their hate-filled community, they have created an environment that revels in violating its spirit.

We do not take this decision lightly. Cloudflare is a network provider. In pursuit of our goal of helping build a better internet, we’ve considered it important to provide our security services broadly to make sure as many users as possible are secure, and thereby making cyberattacks less attractive — regardless of the content of those websites. Many of our customers run platforms of their own on top of our network. If our policies are more conservative than theirs it effectively undercuts their ability to run their services and set their own policies. We reluctantly tolerate content that we find reprehensible, but we draw the line at platforms that have demonstrated they directly inspire tragic events and are lawless by design. 8chan has crossed that line. It will therefore no longer be allowed to use our services.

What Will Happen Next

Unfortunately, we have seen this situation before and so we have a good sense of what will play out. Almost exactly two years ago we made the determination to kick another disgusting site off Cloudflare's network: the Daily Stormer. That caused a brief interruption in the site's operations but they quickly came back online using a Cloudflare competitor. That competitor at the time promoted as a feature the fact that they didn't respond to legal process. Today, the Daily Stormer is still available and still disgusting. They have bragged that they have more readers than ever. They are no longer Cloudflare's problem, but they remain the Internet's problem.

I have little doubt we'll see the same happen with 8chan. While removing 8chan from our network takes heat off of us, it does nothing to address why hateful sites fester online. It does nothing to address why mass shootings occur. It does nothing to address why portions of the population feel so disenchanted they turn to hate. In taking this action we've solved our own problem, but we haven't solved the Internet's.

In the two years since the Daily Stormer what we have done to try and solve the Internet’s deeper problem is engage with law enforcement and civil society organizations to try and find solutions. Among other things, that resulted in us cooperating around monitoring potential hate sites on our network and notifying law enforcement when there was content that contained an indication of potential violence. We will continue to work within the legal process to share information when we can to hopefully prevent horrific acts of violence. We believe this is our responsibility and, given Cloudflare's scale and reach, we are hopeful we will continue to make progress toward solving the deeper problem.

Rule of Law

We continue to feel incredibly uncomfortable about playing the role of content arbiter and do not plan to exercise it often. Some have wrongly speculated this is due to some conception of the United States' First Amendment. That is incorrect. First, we are a private company and not bound by the First Amendment. Second, the vast majority of our customers, and more than 50% of our revenue, comes from outside the United States where the First Amendment and similarly libertarian freedom of speech protections do not apply. The only relevance of the First Amendment in this case and others is that it allows us to choose who we do and do not do business with; it does not obligate us to do business with everyone.

Instead our concern has centered around another much more universal idea: the Rule of Law. The Rule of Law requires policies be transparent and consistent. While it has been articulated as a framework for how governments ensure their legitimacy, we have used it as a touchstone when we think about our own policies.

We have been successful because we have a very effective technological solution that provides security, performance, and reliability in an affordable and easy-to-use way. As a result of that, a huge portion of the Internet now sits behind our network. 10% of the top million, 17% of the top 100,000, and 19% of the top 10,000 Internet properties use us today. 10% of the Fortune 1,000 are paying Cloudflare customers.

Cloudflare is not a government. While we've been successful as a company, that does not give us the political legitimacy to make determinations on what content is good and bad. Nor should it. Questions around content are real societal issues that need politically legitimate solutions. We will continue to engage with lawmakers around the world as they set the boundaries of what is acceptable in their countries through due process of law. And we will comply with those boundaries when and where they are set.

Europe, for example, has taken a lead in this area. As we've seen governments there attempt to address hate and terror content online, there is recognition that different obligations should be placed on companies that organize and promote content — like Facebook and YouTube — rather than those that are mere conduits for that content. Conduits, like Cloudflare, are not visible to users and therefore cannot be transparent and consistent about their policies.
The unresolved question is how should the law deal with platforms that ignore or actively thwart the Rule of Law? That's closer to the situation we have seen with the Daily Stormer and 8chan. They are lawless platforms. In cases like these, where platforms have been designed to be lawless and unmoderated, and where the platforms have demonstrated their ability to cause real harm, the law may need additional remedies. We and other technology companies need to work with policy makers in order to help them understand the problem and define these remedies. And, in some cases, it may mean moving enforcement mechanisms further down the technical stack.

Our Obligation

Cloudflare's mission is to help build a better Internet. At some level firing 8chan as a customer is easy. They are uniquely lawless and that lawlessness has contributed to multiple horrific tragedies. Enough is enough.

What's hard is defining the policy that we can enforce transparently and consistently going forward. We, and other technology companies like us that enable the great parts of the Internet, have an obligation to help propose solutions to deal with the parts we're not proud of. That's our obligation and we're committed to it.

Unfortunately the action we take today won’t fix hate online. It will almost certainly not even remove 8chan from the Internet. But it is the right thing to do. Hate online is a real issue. Here are some organizations that have active work to help address it:
Our whole Cloudflare team’s thoughts are with the families grieving in El Paso, Texas and Dayton, Ohio this evening.
 
There would have to be SOME sort of competition and sure, maybe the competition would be inferior, but I think if we want to create this sort of "free market" that everyone wants to be a part of, there has to be SOME sort of support for the little guys and having people move away from the big tech companies. It worked for many websites, so why won't it work here? I mean, I use duckduckgo now, and I love their search engine. Maybe it's time to just spread support for the more smaller companies?
 
It's what you call cronyism.

Know wut? Maybe we're approaching this the wrong way. Maybe its pointless to try taking the high road in a world so filled with corruption, where only one side is playing by the rules. We should all join Antifa and steer it towards full exceptionalism - demand all businesses close down, redistribute all of the money and just go full whole hog crazy. Gin up an army to go after the corporations - even the ones who are funding Antifa, and stage protests in front of their buildings, demanding redistribution of wealth. Go look up pro-immigrant rich people, get them to sign up for a special program for immigrant assistance, and then knock on their doors with an immigrant family and cameras in tow. Call them racist if they don't take the entire family in. Just cram everything the Woke-o-crats say they want, right down their gullets good and hard. Film it all and show the world what hypocrites they are if they refuse.

If you can't beat em, join them....then beat 'em.
 
On one hand, it's 8chan; nothing of value would've been lost.

On the other, that's a very worrisome precedent to set. Sure, some moron almost certainly posted their inspired-by-all-the-drugs manifesto before they attempted suicide by cop. Why hasn't Facebook been thrown to the wolves after the livestreamed shooting? I guess that's because the nutjobs there mostly have their own private little groups to spew their hate out of sight instead of publicly sarcastically memeing away (I hope), meaning you can tar the entire thing with the "extremist" instead of the "stupid" brush and potentially get rid of a place for discussion used by people who probably don't share your viewpoints. Based on the web archive of the manifesto, I like to think that 8chan would've continued to respond to the manifesto with "OP eat shit and die" instead of "bring more ammo" if an actual shooting had not immediately taken place.

Then again, through a brief glance at the 8chan thread on the news article about the shooting it's not always easy to tell if someone's being an edgelord or if they think mass violence is socially acceptable. Perhaps even without the recent tragedy 8chan should just be burnt down regardless.
 
Is there really no other way to mitigate DDoS attacks other than Cloudflare? ED used to have a mutating IP address back in the day that prevented people from seeing the real one. I've never seen it on any website since went down the first time either.
Yes, there are alternatives like BitMitigate, which is what the Daily Stormer uses.
 
Why hasn't Facebook been thrown to the wolves after the livestreamed shooting? I guess that's because the nutjobs there mostly have their own private little groups to spew their hate out of sight instead of publicly sarcastically memeing away (I hope), meaning you can tar the entire thing with the "extremist" instead of the "stupid" brush and potentially get rid of a place for discussion used by people who probably don't share your viewpoints. Based on the web archive of the manifesto, I like to think that 8chan would've continued to respond to the manifesto with "OP eat shit and die" instead of "bring more ammo" if an actual shooting had not immediately taken place.
Because it's all about shutting down avenues for discussion that aren't controlled by Democrats.
 
It's amazingly convenient that not a soul in the media can remember all of the instances of murders and other horrific crimes that have been not only talked about in text, but fucking live streamed over normie platforms like Facebook or Twitter.

To mitigate the risk of block posting, I'll just say that I'm pretty much with Jim on this one. I really think we are facing the end of an era. I think solutions will be found, obviously, but the "open internet" really is going to be a thing of the past soon. I know 8chan isn't the first, but the crazies always get emboldened by a big takedown.


Oh, and since they are out for blood, it might be wise for certain people here to delete their tweet history and start from 0 again.
 
Because it's all about shutting down avenues for discussion that aren't controlled by Democrats.
That likely plays some role though I feel this is more of a knee-jerk reaction not unlike "Blame Videogames". 8chan just happened to be a target that something could be done about right now without too many people objecting since, you know, it's 8chan.
 
In a way, I kinda see this as a blessing in disguise. At this point, it's probably now the time for websites like that of 8chan to start being hosted in those many countries where both the lefty leaning news outlets or other types of moral busybodies have little to no power in the matter and they can't force the new hosts for these websites to take them down again like before.

There are options where these websites can continue to be hosted in places that just don't give a shit about what people do online on these platforms so long as they don't really hurt anyone anyway. There's countries like Switzerland where they really don't give a shit what people do most of the time and then there's most of the post-Soviet countries that are known to host websites that have content that people can find to be offensive anyway.

So I say dump these cucked online services and move on to other services hosted in countries that are willing to give users what they want without all of the bullshit politics getting in the way of things so that's all I have to say about that.
 
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How is this bad? 8chan will find another solution, and will continue as always. There will also be some interest drummed up in alternatives, marginally decentralizing from CloudFlare. Just find somewhere else to /pol/ post for a day or two, geez.
 
It is a shit precedent to set, and once it’s set against the ‘baddies’ it can be used against anyone.

At the same time, any biologist knows that the more diverse an ecosystem is the stronger it is. Ecosystems dominated by a few big organisms are weak. Monoculture is not a good thing. The current internet set up is a bit like a monoculture wheat field which requires a ton of pesticide to survive. It’s inherently an unstable and weak system. If everyone is in hock to Cloudflare, or twitter, or google, the system is not optimal. Strong ecosystems are chaotic, have dense webs of interconnectedness and are not dominated by single species. If one link fails, others compensate. Most biological systems are link this - you find people with half their brain missing at autopsy and no one realised because the brain isnplastic and a complex system that can find its own workarounds.

Bio sperging over, I suspect things will get worse before they get better. Who else is in their sights?
 
What happened to all that talk about breaking up Google, Facebook etc and declaring Twitter a "public space" where the First Amendment applies so they couldn't legally censor users anymore? I guess when people post mean things and someone's feelings are hurt the First Amendment isn't important anymore.
First amendment doesn’t cover private transactions, which is why censorship is being carried out by corporations now, not the government. Google is under anti-trust investigation now though. Treating twitter and such as a publisher would be cool, but he needs the legislature to do that.
 
Semi off topic but correct me if wrong but I thought Nulls had his own ISP which ran Kiwi Farms, so this kind of thing wouldn't happen to the farms?
 
What happened to all that talk about breaking up Google, Facebook etc and declaring Twitter a "public space" where the First Amendment applies so they couldn't legally censor users anymore? I guess when people post mean things and someone's feelings are hurt the First Amendment isn't important anymore.

Libertarians spent the past several decades defending corporations and their right to do anything. They're merely reaping what they sow now. If that crop of libertarians had their way in the past, financial institutions and telecom companies would be doing the same thing as tech right now.
 
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First amendment doesn’t cover private transactions, which is why censorship is being carried out by corporations now, not the government. Google is under anti-trust investigation now though. Treating twitter and such as a publisher would be cool, but he needs the legislature to do that.
Yeah, I know, my point is there was some talk recently from some members of Congress on pushing legislation that would declare sites like Twitter and You Tube (just to name a few) as publishers so they wouldn't be able to censor conservatives.
 
I don’t know how I feel about this. I’m obviously against cloudfare removing 8chan because I’m free speech till I die. But the environment of that image board in particular is a breeding ground for sociopathic autism. When someone spends most of their time on a place where it’s “fuck beaners” this “fuck niggers” that and “save the white race” day in and day out, it’s not a mystery how a maladjusted self destructive individual would come into being. This is why I like KF because I feel it’s the exception. Sure you can say whatever you want but be prepared to get laughed at for being the flaming autist that you are.

Idk. This is definitely a bad thing but man 8chan was a shithole.

/pol/ was ground zero for that stupid mentality of labelling anyone for the slightest disagreement to the point it even spreaded on other boards like /v/. Couldnt talk about new games because that would make you a "shill", and complaining about /pol/ users (I dont recall the lefty counterpart shitposting that much in comparison) being retarded screaming twats, who were derailing a game thread, was somehow a proof that you were a "sjw/leftist" despite any sane person would leave politics at the door when engaged to his hobby. Admittedly it's not like the videogame industry is doing great, but that constant negative attitude and paraonia on this board really became tiring in the end.
 
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