Aging and society

[Hellbound Hellhound]

Throughout most of human history, aging has been considered an inevitable part of life. For about as long, myths about the possibility of avoiding aging have also persisted: from Herodotus's account of the Fountain of Youth, to Emperor Qin Shi Huang's quest to find the elixir of life, to the alchemist's search for the philosopher's stone, all the way to 19th and 20th century vampire mythology.

Today, medical science may be offering an alternative way to look at aging. A growing number of biomedical researchers are approaching aging not as an inevitable part of life, but as a series of degenerative pathologies which are co-morbid with disease, and which could, theoretically, be treated. Two notable areas of research include the studies which are currently ongoing into rapamycin and senolytic drugs: both of which have been demonstrated to significantly increase both the lifespan and healthspan of mice, and the latter of which is already showing promising results in early human trials.

The question all of this raises is how we ought to look at aging. For a long time, heart disease, osteoporosis, and Alzheimer's disease were all considered an inevitable part of getting older, yet today, they are all regarded as diseases by both society and the medical establishment. Perhaps this raises a deeper philosophical question concerning how we define and categorize diseases. Is obesity a disease, or is it the consequence of poor lifestyle choices? Is alopecia a disease, or a perfectly healthy expression of human physical diversity, to be embraced, rather than cured?

I already have my own views on the topic, but I'd be interested to see what other people have to say.

 

[FA 855]

I have a keenness to live for as long as possible so that I may refine my shitposting over millennia, or perhaps I will be told in the year 3019 that my memes are soooooo 2053 and I need to get with the times.
More seriously however I don't understand anyone who doesn't want to artificially extend their lifespan way past a natural expiration date, I want to be around when every major planet and moon is colonized and can be visited like some cheap holiday, or when AI is done, I want to see a Dyson sphere complete, or being able to go into the Matrix.
Maybe I'd get bored, maybe the human race will violently end itself, but frankly I want to see it, even if it means a machine body because my organs get too old.
Society ought to view aging positively, and with medical advancements hopefully aging will be less painful and more fulfilling.

 

[JosephStalin]

Well, I'll speak from the viewpoint of one, in his seventh decade of life, is likely older than many here.

Agree aging of the body is part of the natural life cycle. But I don't begrudge anyone who wants to try any "anti-aging" treatments. Read somewhere that there's a part of our chromosomes called telomeres. They are longer when we are young, but shorten as we age. Apparently this has a connection to the body aging. So unless any treatment can make those telomeres longer again, doubt any real body-wide anti-aging treatment would be effective.

Yup, can't do physically everything I could do in my 30's and 40's. But I am still developing mentally and as a person. Guess that's why they say youth is wasted on the young. Being retired, I do a lot of things that interest me, and if I don't feel like doing anything, that's okay, too. Have long since paid my dues.

Have also seen people much younger than I am who look much older than they are, for various reasons.

Believe aging is not just a state of the body, but also of the mind. I acknowledge the passage of time, but refuse to acknowledge growing old. Anyone else can do the same thing. My attitude is, that when I die, I didn't die, I just ran out of time.

I'll throw one last thing out for consideration. Nobody really knows what happens after death. What if we are destined to live in a higher, spiritual plane after the demise of the body? So hey, if you're hanging around here for XXX number of years, you may be missing something good on the spiritual plane. Just my thoughts. Your mileage may vary.

 

[Clop]

More seriously however I don't understand anyone who doesn't want to artificially extend their lifespan way past a natural expiration date

Don't worry. You will.

 

[Dutch Courage]

I think that once society stopped turning toward the aged for the wisdom of their years, they started to be looked upon as a burden. As such, the aging process is seen with more horror than in previous times, and more money is spent than ever before to delay it or mask its effects. And therein lies the trouble with a lot of things...

Of course there is no such disease as "old age". Old age is when a lot of diseases or other illnesses start gaining the upper hand. Medical science is right to find cures or ways to manage these diseases, and in so doing may prolong average lifespans, assuming all people have access to them, which is not a safe assumption to make. Lifestyle and genetics still play the biggest role in long life, however, as does sheer dumb luck.

Ultimately, we are foiled by our own bodies; you can prolong life for some time, but eventually it all breaks down. The biggest hope for those wishing immortality would be to download their entire consciousness into a computer somehow, and upload it to a droid body. In other words, no hope.

Let the scientists keep tinkering, if it gets some people some extra time with their grandchildren or something, then it is a good thing. But bigger fools have searched for the magic elixir of the fountain of youth and come up empty.

 

[Foxxo]

once society stopped turning toward the aged for the wisdom of their years

Are you serious? Look at how old our politicians are!

All jokes aside, it is kinda sad that we're starting to view our own mortality with more terror and fear, but at least we aren't going into any total wars now.

 

[bev]

The idea of living longer by means of vaccines or other man-made interventions is pretty terrifying. We already see that now. As of today, we have an issue in medicine where we have people treating their acute diseases and then dying from their chronic illnesses. I'd rather die when I'm 80 and weak from the flu or a heart attack, than die when I'm 105 having gone insane and catatonic because dementia had developed to the point where I forgot how to drink and crapped out slowly from dehydration. That way is not only less painful for the individual, but also less painful for their family. No one wants to see someone go through that, and no one wants people to dote on them because of that.

Furthermore, our societies are just not set up adequately enough for people to live that long. Benefits and pensions are set at values that are only sufficient enough assuming you live to the typical life expectancy. If you live for a long time, you better hope your family can chip in enough money to care for you.

Nah man, let me work, live out my purpose, then die and make room for the next one.

 

[Webby's Boyfriend]

Aging is a deadly heriditary disease that has something to do with problems at cell regeneration. It can and has to be cured.

If not, well, I believe we all live for eternity through different worlds.

 

[Queen Elizabeth II]

I suppose I don't have the healthiest source of total ease with death as a finality or oblivion; it might be it causes more fear for me as I age.

I grew up not thinking of "Oh no, I won't get to see the awesome stuff in the future" in regards to dying being a bad thing, but growing up thinking "all my freinds and family outside of my religion as well as the vast majority within it are all going to be tortured forever".

With a threat hanging over your head, of eternity being something deeply unpleasant finding out it wasn't there was actually quite liberating. Our world is amazing, and however, it came about death, destruction and ultimately renewal is the foundation of how it works; the old must die for something new to come forth. There isn't enough room on this rock, the young need a chance to rise to your position in society, even the foundational elements and atoms that constitute your flesh will be reused again. In a way, it's selfish to stay beyond your time; though it is indeed tragic when through catastrophe or bad luck people don't get the time the healthiest of our kind can reach.

Even if in some far off time in the future we did find some way that was cheap enough that all people could live for centuries, or indeed forever in some type three galaxy travelling civilization; that wouldn't solve other faults in humans that become more pronounced as we age. Have you ever heard the saying "You can't teach an old dog new tricks?". It's quite true, the way neural networks develop in the brain up until the mid-twenties enable young people to adapt and change their habits and ways of thinking wheras it's relatively rare older people can radically change their outlook or views in radical ways. Would womens sufferage have ever occurred in a world in which the men of the 18th century were still alive? Would serfs have ever gained liberty if the Black Death hadn't reduced the population so sufficiently that non-nobles could demand rights?

I think change, for good or for ill, is one of the most wonderful things about our world; and death is required for that. A world without death would be entirely static and wouldn't be able to change for better or for worse; it would certainly be boring though. Leaders would never die and be replaced by more enlightened minds, new ideas would rarely rise if ever.

I obviously don't want to die, and I might become more fearful of the pain as I approach it and I watch my loved ones do so. I experience fear for the latter more than the other. Death is scary, but it does a lot of good too.

It might sound ridiculous to reference, seeing as it's from a game I've never played; but something in a Source Guide for a roleplay setting called Vampire: The Masquerade really struck me once. For every century a character was alive, or every time they encountered a civilization that did not exist during their lifetimes; they would become increasingly "jaded" and suffer an ever increasing penalty to their mental and social stats. Less innovative, more sedentary, less responsive and while there are exceptional individuals who buck the trend; for most human this is true. We've all seen how insufferable and unreasonable seventy year old plus humans can be, can you just imagine how cantankerous a three hundered year old one would be; not merely by habit but by the very nature of how their brain works, becoming more fixed and one-minded in everything they did?

Aging is bad, but a world without it would be far worse.

 

[Webby's Boyfriend]

I suppose I don't have the healthiest source of total ease with death as a finality or oblivion; it might be it causes more fear for me as I age.

I grew up not thinking of "Oh no, I won't get to see the awesome stuff in the future" in regards to dying being a bad thing, but growing up thinking "all my freinds and family outside of my religion as well as the vast majority within it are all going to be tortured forever".

With a threat hanging over your head, of eternity being something deeply unpleasant finding out it wasn't there was actually quite liberating. Our world is amazing, and however, it came about death, destruction and ultimately renewal is the foundation of how it works; the old must die for something new to come forth. There isn't enough room on this rock, the young need a chance to rise to your position in society, even the foundational elements and atoms that constitute your flesh will be reused again. In a way, it's selfish to stay beyond your time; though it is indeed tragic when through catastrophe or bad luck people don't get the time the healthiest of our kind can reach.

Even if in some far off time in the future we did find some way that was cheap enough that all people could live for centuries, or indeed forever in some type three galaxy travelling civilization; that wouldn't solve other faults in humans that become more pronounced as we age. Have you ever heard the saying "You can't teach an old dog new tricks?". It's quite true, the way neural networks develop in the brain up until the mid-twenties enable young people to adapt and change their habits and ways of thinking wheras it's relatively rare older people can radically change their outlook or views in radical ways. Would womens sufferage have ever occurred in a world in which the men of the 18th century were still alive? Would serfs have ever gained liberty if the Black Death hadn't reduced the population so sufficiently that non-nobles could demand rights?

I think change, for good or for ill, is one of the most wonderful things about our world; and death is required for that. A world without death would be entirely static and wouldn't be able to change for better or for worse; it would certainly be boring though. Leaders would never die and be replaced by more enlightened minds, new ideas would rarely rise if ever.

I obviously don't want to die, and I might become more fearful of the pain as I approach it and I watch my loved ones do so. I experience fear for the latter more than the other. Death is scary, but it does a lot of good too.

It might sound ridiculous to reference, seeing as it's from a game I've never played; but something in a Source Guide for a roleplay setting called Vampire: The Masquerade really struck me once. For every century a character was alive, or every time they encountered a civilization that did not exist during their lifetimes; they would become increasingly "jaded" and suffer an ever increasing penalty to their mental and social stats. Less innovative, more sedentary, less responsive and while there are exceptional individuals who buck the trend; for most human this is true. We've all seen how insufferable and unreasonable seventy year old plus humans can be, can you just imagine how cantankerous a three hundered year old one would be; not merely by habit but by the very nature of how their brain works, becoming more fixed and one-minded in everything they did?

Aging is bad, but a world without it would be far worse.

Mental aging will be cured too.

 

[Queen Elizabeth II]

Mental aging will be cured too.

If that's the case, this "cure" will fundamentally alter how humans develop and operate; it'll be like puberty blockers for child troons.

If that's a good thing might be subjective, but I think it would raise some very interesting questions about side effects, but more than that perhaps even what it means to be human. Mortality is what puts a firecracker up a good many peoples arses to get up and get shit done, could we retain our humanity (not in the biological sense, but perhaps that too) without it?

 

[RG 448]

I voted unsure because i don’t know

 

[saisegeha]

I can't see myself getting old (mid 30s-over 40) because I already feel like I've had enough, but I can also understand people who wish to outlive everyone else since they'd have a lot of time to study and explore life. However, most people you talk to who "want to live forever" tend to forget that this also means outliving your own children, parents, whatever and being absolutely alone at the end of it all. And dear god, that's horrible if you consider how enormous the generation gap is nowadays even if it's just 5 years or something, I would not wish that on anybody. Every moment spent awake would be one where people would call you an old geezer, not understand you or think you're senile, the times where old people were looked up to as wise and strong have been gone for a long, long time.

 

[Ughubughughughughughghlug]

People naturally tire of life by some point, although it may well be that they only tire because of the physical wear on them.

There's also the matter that people get tired because their peers start dying off, but if immortality or extended lifespans were common, that wouldn't really be an issue either.

One big problem with immortality/major life extension is that it will necessitate even lower birth rates in order to keep the population growth rate stable. That's not necessarily a problem, but a lot of people want to have children. What happens if people start living so long that most families can't (without society going over the limit)?

I also wonder how very long time frames would affect the perception of the passing of time. Your perception of time increases as you get older because, as it seems to me, fixed units of time take up a relatively smaller portion of your lifespan. A year for a toddler could take up a third or even a fourth of their entire lifetime. It feels massive, and every hour weighs heavy on the toddler (if they're not distracted with whatever they're doing, which they are most of the time). By contrast, elderly people tend to feel years, even decades fly by rapidly.

I think it may be possible that even if somebody's mind was not deteriorating, extreme age (think >150 years) would cause the perception of time to become so fast that it starts to break down and becomes distressing. When decades go by in what others perceive as months.

 

[WhoBusTank69]

We're really dragging our feet on colonizing other planets, I'd say we hold off on reversing the effects of aging until then.

 

[Webby's Boyfriend]

If that's the case, this "cure" will fundamentally alter how humans develop and operate; it'll be like puberty blockers for child troons.

I imagine drugs that do make a 3000 year old think like a teenager for a day or something.

People naturally tire of life by some point, although it may well be that they only tire because of the physical wear on them.

There's also the matter that people get tired because their peers start dying off, but if immortality or extended lifespans were common, that wouldn't really be an issue either.

One big problem with immortality/major life extension is that it will necessitate even lower birth rates in order to keep the population growth rate stable. That's not necessarily a problem, but a lot of people want to have children. What happens if people start living so long that most families can't (without society going over the limit)?

I also wonder how very long time frames would affect the perception of the passing of time. Your perception of time increases as you get older because, as it seems to me, fixed units of time take up a relatively smaller portion of your lifespan. A year for a toddler could take up a third or even a fourth of their entire lifetime. It feels massive, and every hour weighs heavy on the toddler (if they're not distracted with whatever they're doing, which they are most of the time). By contrast, elderly people tend to feel years, even decades fly by rapidly.

I think it may be possible that even if somebody's mind was not deteriorating, extreme age (think >150 years) would cause the perception of time to become so fast that it starts to break down and becomes distressing. When decades go by in what others perceive as months.

Maybe, as one grows older with life extension - not decades, but centuries and millenia - older memories and skills, when not used anymore, will fade away because the mind cannot store so much information. People change and after a 1000 years or so, somebody will have become an entirely new person.

 

[wylfım]

I'd love to enjoy

I imagine drugs that do make a 3000 year old think like a teenager for a day or something.


Maybe, as one grows older with life extension - not decades, but centuries and millenia - older memories and skills, when not used anymore, will fade away because the mind cannot store so much information. People change and after a 1000 years or so, somebody will have become an entirely new person.

I'd love to be able to live and die without needing to face the existential question of the ship of Theseus, thank you very much.

 

[Gravityqueen4life]

death comes for us all. dosent matter if you find a way too stop aging, use cybernetics, put your brain into a think-tank or transport your "soul" into cyber-space, death WILL come for you at some point even if you can hold it off for 100 or 1000 of years. either you accept death as part of your life and live the best life you can or you end up being miserable and fear it everyday until it gets you.

this is a favorite quote i once heard. "you may be a king or a streetsweeper, but everyone dances with the grim reaper".

 

[saisegeha]

death comes for us all. dosent matter if you find a way too stop aging, use cybernetics, put your brain into a think-tank or transport your "soul" into cyber-space, death WILL come for you at some point even if you can hold it off for 100 or 1000 of years. either you accept death as part of your life and live the best life you can or you end up being miserable and fear it everyday until it gets you.

this is a favorite quote i once heard. "you may be a king or a streetsweeper, but everyone dances with the grim reaper".

Marcus Aurelius put it pretty nicely.

Spoiler: Aurelius sperging

"Death is a release from the impressions of the senses, and from desires that make us their puppets, and from the vagaries of the mind, and from the hard service of the flesh.

Don’t let yourself forget how many doctors have died, furrowing their brows over how many deathbeds. How many astrologers, after pompous forecasts about others’ ends. How many philosophers, after endless disquisitions on death and immortality. How many warriors, after inflicting thousands of casualties themselves. How many tyrants, after abusing the power of life and death atrociously, as if they were themselves immortal.
How many whole cities have met their end: Helike, Pompeii, Herculaneum, and countless others.

And all the ones you know yourself, one after another. One who laid out another for burial, and was buried himself, and then the man who buried him - all in the same short space of time.

In short, know this: Human lives are brief and trivial. Yesterday a blob of semen; tomorrow embalming fluid, ash.

To pass through this brief life as nature demands. To give it up without complaint.

Like an olive that ripens and falls.

Hippocrates cured many illnesses—and then fell ill and
died. The Chaldaeans predicted the deaths of many others; in
due course their own hour arrived. Alexander, Pompey,
Caesar—who utterly destroyed so many cities, cut down so
many thousand foot and horse in battle—they too departed this life. Heraclitus often told us the world would end in fire.
But it was moisture that carried him off; he died smeared
with cowshit. Democritus was killed by ordinary vermin,
Socrates by the human kind.
And?
You boarded, you set sail, you’ve made the passage. Time
to disembark. If it’s for another life, well, there’s nowhere
without gods on that side either. If to nothingness, then you no
longer have to put up with pain and pleasure, or go on
dancing attendance on this battered crate, your body—so
much inferior to that which serves it.
One is mind and spirit, the other earth and garbage."

 

[Queen Elizabeth II]

I imagine drugs that do make a 3000 year old think like a teenager for a day or something.

We have those now. They're called "Snapchat filters".