Does religion create better or worse countries?

[HeyYou]

Atheism is the lack of a position. Theists do try to put Atheists into a position within their worldview but this is always to the detriment of us. Rather than accept the idea that yes, people can and do live well without their divine sugardaddy of choice, it's far less jarring for them to lump us in a specific box for heretics rather than us just not being in the race at all.

I welcome the label of Fedora if my title to the left wasn't a clue, there's no room for moderation or being gentle in this matter. There's no reason to show any respect to a group who thinks the rest of the world quite justly deserves to burn. The very least a theist deserves is mockery and scorn, because their books explain in quite vivid detail what their best people would like to do to the rest of us given half a chance.

Then my argument was completely correct and you are taking a specific position, numbnuts. You state you don't have a position and then in the next paragraph state you have to be direct and open about a specific position to religious people. You state that atheists shouldn't be considered in the same playing field as theists but then state that atheists need to directly butt heads with religious people, which would only further confirm atheists and theists are arguing on the same level. By your own logic religious people shouldn't be respectful to atheists because they killed millions of people and an atheist state is currently putting religious people into concentration camps.

Be more specific than that.

If the argument is that Islam is bringing in crime and destroying social cohesion/committing violence, why would anyone consider implementing those religious laws already being criticized into official law to be a valid solution?

 

[Queen Elizabeth II]

Then my argument was completely correct and you are taking a specific position, numbnuts. You state you don't have a position and then in the next paragraph state you have to be direct and open about a specific position to religious people. You state that atheists shouldn't be considered in the same playing field as theists but then state that atheists need to directly butt heads with religious people, which would only further confirm atheists and theists are arguing on the same level. By your own logic religious people shouldn't be respectful to atheists because they killed millions of people and an atheist state is currently putting religious people into concentration camps.

I'm saying atheists are being treated as a beast that they are not, and atheists need to resist and laugh at theists when they try and fit them into their paradigm rather than sit and accept the idea that we are a belief system as Theists insist we are.

Why is butting heads equivocal to accepting the place where theists place us? We're not arguing on the same level, we are literally arguing with people whose arguments suggest we should fully believe in and live to appease the Easter Bunny. Were it not for societal conditioning and tradition giving this small selection of beliefs a special platform, we wouldn't even give them two seconds listening.

Religious people do not respect atheists. These are people who go miles out of their way, to the point of voting for candidates who make it core parts of their platforms to revoke rights we hold and to bolster the rights of religious believers. Any "respect" between the two is a thin veneer, and one which inevitably at the moment favors the religious believer. It's not just in the US. In several parts of Europe it's a hate crime to "offend" or critique a religious faith, but religious are perfectly free to call for the murder of unbelievers.

 

[HeyYou]

I'm saying atheists are being treated as a beast that they are not, and atheists need to resist and laugh at theists when they try and fit them into their paradigm rather than sit and accept the idea that we are a belief system as Theists insist we are.

Why is butting heads equivocal to accepting the place where theists place us? We're not arguing on the same level, we are literally arguing with people whose arguments suggest we should fully believe in and live to appease the Easter Bunny. Were it not for societal conditioning and tradition giving this small selection of beliefs a special platform, we wouldn't even give them two seconds listening.

Religious people do not respect atheists. These are people who go miles out of their way, to the point of voting for candidates who make it core parts of their platforms to revoke rights we hold and to bolster the rights of religious believers. Any "respect" between the two is a thin veneer, and one which inevitably at the moment favors the religious believer. It's not just in the US. In several parts of Europe it's a hate crime to "offend" or critique a religious faith, but religious are perfectly free to call for the murder of unbelievers.

You didn't respond to the point about atheist states murdering millions of people and interning religious people. Also, get over your victim complex dude. Do you know popular being an atheist or agnostic is nowadays? Literally no one made fun of me for being an atheist in school. In fact, a (rather spergy) Christian was the one always getting bullied. Strict Christianity isn't even popular anymore, it's why Christians are increasingly going to chill non-denominational churches. Christianity is getting just as blasted in Europe, you know as well as I do those laws are in place mostly for Islam. And it has more to do with the fact that Muslims are increasingly considered more of a race.

It's as if you're stuck in the late 2000s like tons of gay people are.

 

[Rancid Flid]

Name me one problem the west faces that cannot be fixed with an established islamic leadership system.

The industrial scale grooming & rape of vulnerable, white girls in England.

And the ability to be able to find a superb bacon sandwich in a cafe.

Oh, and street shitting.

And Islamist terror attacks.

 

[Queen Elizabeth II]

You didn't respond to the point about atheist states murdering millions of people and interning religious people.

They did. Would you like me to say that was wrong? Would that make it any better?

People in the past killed each other; that does not devalue the truth of what I say despite attempts to exploit emotion and feels by evoking this sentiment.

Also, get over your victim complex dude. Do you know popular being an atheist or agnostic is nowadays? Literally no one made fun of me for being an atheist in school. In fact, a (rather spergy) Christian was the one always getting bullied. Strict Christianity isn't even popular anymore, it's why Christians are increasingly going to chill non-denominational churches. Christianity is getting just as blasted in Europe, you know as well as I do those laws are in place mostly for Islam. And it has more to do with the fact that Muslims are increasingly considered more of a race.

It's as if you're stuck in the late 2000s like tons of gay people are.

I'm actually saying this more as a former Catholic seminarian with masters level qualifications in Theology and Divinity than a gay man; because as a gay man who never was "outed" during his time there and who at the time followed and was content in a celibate life I've had a front rowseat for much of my life to watch religious psychopathy firsthand. I've watched people struggle with their homosexual urges, I've seen clerics run away with peoples spouses, cheat and commit a good number of sins. That isn't actually what caused me to lose faith, but it does provide me with a level of insight into the internal mechanism that drives the religious belief that most people haven't had the (mis)fortune of getting to see first hand.

I'm not making this fight exclusively about Christians; as I said I find all supernatural believers contemptable but if there is one group I feel is the greatest threat it is the Muslims who do still possess the numbers and will to murder for their beliefs on a national and world scale. I agree, Christianity doesn't benefit from those laws as much as Islam and when pitted against Islam tends to lose in legal battles; but at the same time non-religious organizations here in Europe who oppose non-Islamic faith groups do foul of them in the game of top trumps.

I view Christianity as a toothless tiger in the west, a sleeping beast because anywhere in the world it does retain power it causes problems; see the African Bishops who teach that witches cause Ebola or that Condoms give you AIDS.

I'm not stuck in the past, I see the hydra that has been wounded slowly getting back up to bite us in the future.

 

[Rand /pol/]

Okay well not sure if this is true or not, but Weber, a sociologist, wrote extensively about a theory he had that protestant countries do better than others because of a stronger work ethic due to the inherent values of the religion. Modern capitalism is the product of calvinist ethics and the encouragement of literacy.

The Protestant Ethic and the Spirit of Capitalism - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Not sure if its actually true or not, but its a interesting idea imo.

 

[HeyYou]

They did. Would you like me to say that was wrong? Would that make it any better?

People in the past killed each other; that does not devalue the truth of what I say despite attempts to exploit emotion and feels by evoking this sentiment.

I'm actually saying this more as a former Catholic seminarian with masters level qualifications in Theology and Divinity than a gay man; because as a gay man who never was "outed" during his time there and who at the time followed and was content in a celibate life I've had a front rowseat for much of my life to watch religious psychopathy firsthand. I've watched people struggle with their homosexual urges, I've seen clerics run away with peoples spouses, cheat and commit a good number of sins. That isn't actually what caused me to lose faith, but it does provide me with a level of insight into the internal mechanism that drives the religious belief that most people haven't had the (mis)fortune of getting to see first hand.

I'm not making this fight exclusively about Christians; as I said I find all supernatural believers contemptable but if there is one group I feel is the greatest threat it is the Muslims who do still possess the numbers and will to murder for their beliefs on a national and world scale. I agree, Christianity doesn't benefit from those laws as much as Islam and when pitted against Islam tends to lose in legal battles; but at the same time non-religious organizations here in Europe who oppose non-Islamic faith groups do foul of them in the game of top trumps.

I view Christianity as a toothless tiger in the west, a sleeping beast because anywhere in the world it does retain power it causes problems; see the African Bishops who teach that witches cause Ebola or that Condoms give you AIDS.

I'm not stuck in the past, I see the hydra that has been wounded slowly getting back up to bite us in the future.

And that makes you a fedora tipper who can't see shades of gray and will say explicitly atheist governments oppressing religious people doesn't matter because people have been repressing each for years instead of admitting that your own logic would lead to the natural conclusion that religious people have a right to be scared of atheism. Atheist states are just as likely to repress, turn back the clock on human progress, and have terrible human rights records. You are so close to realizing that religion is a spectrum that also needs to be looked at fairly but then completely miss the mark.

You are preaching to the choir, dude, I've been through everything you've been through in regards to falling out of religion. Except I still occasionally attended my (Protestant) Church for holiday services because the people there were the nicest people I've ever met.

View attachment 917321

Ron, you wouldn't be using a modern day chart with tons of service economies to make your point, would you?

 

[Lemmingwise]

View attachment 917321

That's just a dishonesty chart. Siestas don't count as hours worked, burro.

 

[Queen Elizabeth II]

And that makes you a fedora tipper who can't see shades of gray and will say explicitly atheist governments oppressing religious people doesn't matter because people have been repressing each for years instead of admitting that your own logic would lead to the natural conclusion that religious people have a right to be scared of atheism. Atheist states are just as likely to repress, turn back the clock on human progress, and have terrible human rights records. You are so close to realizing that religion is a spectrum that also needs to be looked at fairly but then completely miss the mark.

I'm not suggesting persecuting religious people or killing them.

I'm all for suggesting removing their special rights such as placing taxes on religious organizations and places of worship and the right for their belief system to be officially respected or else by law. When it comes to the next step such as preventing the religious indoctrination of children it's then I'm more on the fence; not because I believe it is good or a right (I don't, I consider it a form of child abuse to tell them such huge lies) but I haven't developed or been told of a feasible alternative yet.

This is another false equivalency theists promote; not giving them special rights to ignore uniform codes or to not paying taxes is not persecution, it's expecting the same standard of everyone which is in fact equality.

You are preaching to the choir, dude, I've been through everything you've been through in regards to falling out of religion. Except I still occasionally attended my (Protestant) Church for holiday services because the people there were the nicest people I've ever met.

Admittedly the thing about credentials was less for you and anyone else reading who might presume I'm just the angry gay man. I'm really not, I could have had I chosen to have both a successful career as a cleric and a quite adequate sex life at the same time if I'd wished; I didn't because it's a farce and I'd be contributing towards an institution that is fundamentally at the core wrong about the most basic things.

The only thing I would ask, and I don't mean to poke or be rude in doing so is why you attend these holiday services. You say these are some of the nicest people you have met which they could well be, but by attending do we not at very least imply support or respect for an institution which is not only wrong, but at times harmful? It's something that's crossed my mind a few times; I'm not going to say there is a right or wrong answer here, I'm not sure myself; merely I've been asked (with my past) to be a godparent by cultural Catholics a couple of times and while it upset them I said no on both accounts. For them it was more a social thing, but I wasn't going to give the impression I supported the childs indoctrination. I've likewise not attended other things such as Bah Mitzvah parties when invited for similar reasons.

I can see the irony above and the similarity to Christians boycotting gay weddings, which I do understand and sympathize with. Refusing to serve being another matter, considering I'm not allowed to refuse to serve theists under equality legislation here wheras they can refuse to serve me with both being an atheist and a faggot as equally valid reasons to not do so.

 

[Rungle]

i love the nation of israel

 

[HeyYou]

(I don't, I consider it a form of child abuse to tell them such huge lies)

That's the thing, dude, how am I even supposed to argue anything past this? I fundamentally would consider it abhorrent to declare a parent teaching their child about their religion a child abuser.

The only thing I would ask, and I don't mean to poke or be rude in doing so is why you attend these holiday services. You say these are some of the nicest people you have met which they could well be, but by attending do we not at very least imply support or respect for an institution which is not only wrong, but at times harmful? It's something that's crossed my mind a few times; I'm not going to say there is a right or wrong answer here, I'm not sure myself; merely I've been asked (with my past) to be a godparent by cultural Catholics a couple of times and while it upset them I said no on both accounts. For them it was more a social thing, but I wasn't going to give the impression I supported the childs indoctrination. I've likewise not attended other things such as Bah Mitzvah parties when invited for similar reasons.

I support and respect my local Church, yes. They have done good work I could only dream of doing, and they've been doing it at a loss for over a decade. At no point have they done anything that could be construed as harmful, unless you seriously believe talking about their belief in God to be harmful. When I first realized I was an atheist I stated openly to my pastor that I didn't believe in God and I felt terrible for still continuing to attend the Church. He said that it was my prerogative to continue to come to Church for whatever reason I wanted to because it was his belief that it wasn't in his power to judge another human being's viewpoint on the divine. He gave an entire sermon one day talking about how he believed God would be saddened by the vitriol towards gay people. That's kind of what I've been trying to say. I don't know if it's a modern day difference between Catholicism and Protestantism or what, but tons of Protestant Churches are completely different from what you described Christianity as.

 

[Rand /pol/]

That's just a dishonesty chart. Siestas don't count as hours worked, burro.

Greece and S. Korea are the next on the list and they definitely aren't protestant dude.

 

[Lemmingwise]

and S. Korea are the next on the list and they definitely aren't protestant dude.

I don't think you've been to either country if you think they are beacons of honest book keeping.

 

[HeyYou]

Greece

Is a shithole.

 

[CatharticShitHead]

Replying to the in general question, and to quote FatFuckFrank

depends on the religion

I'm trying to not be biased as I'm a shithead atheist, and it would be super fucking easy to just be lazy with this and be like, "YeS rElIgIon bad".

So, with an unbiased thinking about this, yes and no?

I think the world in general needs religion, no matter which it is sometimes as people are either too stupid, indoctrinated, or just like the idea of religion so they need it. Either they use it as a guide of how to act and what their morals should be. So yeah, religion makes countries better, but also worse. I know, it doesn't make sense and I sound like a fuckwit.

I think religion, like all other things has to have some type of moderation. Not in the sense that there are people moderating what others believe in but the people who believe themselves sometimes need to question their own beliefs and think, "Is this too much"?

The problem with the idea I just stated is that like with everything you fuckers have seen on this hellsite, is that every lunatic whether it's some troon or the local fat bearded woman sjw cunt, think that they're 100% right on any and everything they claim or think.

And like every group ever, there are fucking lunatics in religion. The Christian people who used to lynch the gays. The Muslim people who still do that. The very fucking rare buddhist who goes on a rampage, etc. And those lunatics are the ones, in my opinion, that make countries worse.

Like those Syrian we wuz kang niggers who immigrated to Germany and made the amount of rape cases fucking skyrocket.

So yeah. Yes and no.

 

[Idiotron]

Any belief system that is resistant to change will have a negative impact on society.

 

[Rand /pol/]

I don't think you've been to either country if you think they are beacons of honest book keeping.

Cope.

Is a shithole.

They still work more hours on average.

 

[HeyYou]

They still work more hours on average.

Why isn't Greece an economic powerhouse then?

 

[Rand /pol/]

Why isn't Greece an economic powerhouse then?

Beside the point. There a bunch of reasons Greece is less developed than Germany (just ignore that Korea had on average the second most hours worked in a year and is considered first world/developed) my point is that all the countries that work "the most" and generally in the worst conditions aren't protestant.

 

[Lemmingwise]

They still work more hours on average

For Greece in particular it means "spent more hours at work" rather than "worked more hours". They're some of the laziest fucking people I've seen at "work".