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- Aug 7, 2014
Thoughts on Stormfront/ White Nationalism?
- Thread starter Eldritch
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- Dec 8, 2014
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- Feb 3, 2013
The American Nazi Party guy looks like Atticus and my school principle.
I'll never see "To Kill a Mocking Bird" the same way again.
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it would seem he's a nationalist, but he doesn't want to be associated with Nazism so we don't make fun of him. although I get what he's saying about winners writing history, (The US has done some fucked up shit too *cough* training central american guerilla groups to kill socialists *cough*) I think it doesn't work quite as well in this case, considering the US never really did anything on the scale of the holocaust.
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That's fair. @Oglooger seems pretty okay, and he's entitled to his opinion. And it's true that history is always skewed to the side of the victors. I guess I just had a weird knee-jerk reaction to the "He had good intentions, but bad execution" thing.
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My thing is, if you think invading Russia is a good idea, you should look at Napoleon
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One minor skew I really hate coming from liberal types is the whole "6 million jews died". Oh, right because the 5 million other people who died didn't matter.
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The fact that winners write history is true and has many effects. Consider how Germany has reflected on the Nazi era and reacted very much against it. Japan's leaders were not suppressed as hard, and Japan's version of the truth is more iffy. On the other hand, when someone really wins they need not be ashamed at all. The Jewish conquests in the early crazy Bible and also the Mongol narratives are very plain and reflect no shame whatsoever about mass killings. That said I think Holocaust disbelief is more about the fact that 6+ million dead is incredible and you would never believe it if your culture did not already totally accept it (a result of it having happened).
Rather than focus just on the Holocaust though, there seems to be consensus among white anti-Semites that the "Jews" are really Khazar Turks and the real Jews are white people. The "Jews" have suppressed the truth by secretly taking over the Vatican, the media, and all the "democratic" governments. The "Holocaust" is simply another reflection of their lies. This view is alarmingly compatible with mainstream evangelical Protestantism. On the other hand, people who take historical revision really far, as in the Fomenko Chronology, are basically the lolcows among anti-Semites. They say that the Exodus and the Illiad happened at the same time in Italy 500 years ago, when Moses became the Pope. Having taken over openly, the Jews then suppressed anyone who told the truth until everyone forgot what really happened.
About nationalism, I fear that left and liberal leaning people (I say this as a Democrat voter) have turned it into a bad word. Nationalism generically just means opposing foreign rule, and usually implies opposing aristocratic and traditional forms in favor of some republican/democratic form, even if only rule by referendum. Ultranationalism though (ultra = beyond) is what would lead Hitler for example to declare that the Dutch and Austrians are really Germans (true) and therefore are naturally part of Germany (only true if someone makes it so). And ethnic nationalism is what gives the Beijing government the right to treat non-Chinese like garbage, for example.
Rather than focus just on the Holocaust though, there seems to be consensus among white anti-Semites that the "Jews" are really Khazar Turks and the real Jews are white people. The "Jews" have suppressed the truth by secretly taking over the Vatican, the media, and all the "democratic" governments. The "Holocaust" is simply another reflection of their lies. This view is alarmingly compatible with mainstream evangelical Protestantism. On the other hand, people who take historical revision really far, as in the Fomenko Chronology, are basically the lolcows among anti-Semites. They say that the Exodus and the Illiad happened at the same time in Italy 500 years ago, when Moses became the Pope. Having taken over openly, the Jews then suppressed anyone who told the truth until everyone forgot what really happened.
About nationalism, I fear that left and liberal leaning people (I say this as a Democrat voter) have turned it into a bad word. Nationalism generically just means opposing foreign rule, and usually implies opposing aristocratic and traditional forms in favor of some republican/democratic form, even if only rule by referendum. Ultranationalism though (ultra = beyond) is what would lead Hitler for example to declare that the Dutch and Austrians are really Germans (true) and therefore are naturally part of Germany (only true if someone makes it so). And ethnic nationalism is what gives the Beijing government the right to treat non-Chinese like garbage, for example.
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Something you're probably aware of, but most people aren't, is that the Nazis actually had a sperg war over what font to use.
Antiqua won.
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woah, 3 dumb votes. I guess 5/11ths of all human beings who died in the holocaust didn't matter.
Are you spiting me?
I haven't found one definition anywhere that says this. nationalism is the trend of feeling patriotism and often superiority for your country. It's less of an ideology like you suggest, and more of a blanket term that could describe lots of ideas.
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I think you made a good point, it's just that usually when people hear "Holocaust" their minds immediately jump to Jews, instead of Jews, Roma, homosexuals, etc.
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At least they managed to resolve this party in-fight without breaking out the Long Knives.
I've heard that spin coming more from the Right than the Left in my experience. I've also heard some Right-Wing commentators and personalities - like Beck and Jones, for example - argue that both Nazism and Communism are Far Left ideologies, thereby demonstrating their complete ignorance of History or their inability to accept that the Far Right can be just as dangerous as the Far Left.
This lack of connection to Reality is all too common in the White Nationalist circles, too.
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Well... no argument there, I guess most people in general tend to say 6 million, and it was kinda stupid of me to call that a liberal thing.
Speaking of glenn beck, I always loved his whole spiel about nazis and maoists taking over the government... at the same time...
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I don't quite agree with the whole idea of patriotism/"being proud of your country" anyway. I didn't choose to be born where I was. I say this as the child of immigrants. If you asked me, "Zombie, don't you like your country?", I'd say yeah sure because it's alright, and when I say alright I mean "its civil rights violations are marginally less horrible than some other countries', and I'm lucky enough to not starve or live in squalor, and I don't feel too oppressed at the moment, and I like fried chicken and watching that sport with the balls and the sticks, so it'll do".
That said, I can kind of see why somebody who lives in a small and vulnerable country would resort to a nationalist identity. However, most White Pride or Stormfront wingnuts seem to live in America or some other affluent Western country, feeling oppressed because one time they saw a dang dirty negro at the gas station. That's not even remotely acceptable. Neither is thinking you have the right to decide which citizens are allowed to live there. In the region of the world you are indigenous to, there's a 95 percent chance that some other people lived there before your people drove them out. Or killed them all, that's more likely.
That said, I can kind of see why somebody who lives in a small and vulnerable country would resort to a nationalist identity. However, most White Pride or Stormfront wingnuts seem to live in America or some other affluent Western country, feeling oppressed because one time they saw a dang dirty negro at the gas station. That's not even remotely acceptable. Neither is thinking you have the right to decide which citizens are allowed to live there. In the region of the world you are indigenous to, there's a 95 percent chance that some other people lived there before your people drove them out. Or killed them all, that's more likely.
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My thoughts on Stormfront and extreme far-right groups in general can be summed up with this image.
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Well, no. "Holocaust" means the Nazis' campaign against Jews. They also killed a ton of others, but none of those nations or groups is accused of falsifying the whole event. Shouldn't we count people the Soviets killed, if others matter? Or those they starved before the war? Or those the British starved in India? No, it all reeks of oppression Olympics. It just makes Jews want to point out that they got it worst, and I'm inclined to let them own the word "Holocaust."
It's true that nationalism is not an ideology. But it doesn't just mean patriotism either. Patriotism means patriotism. Sense of superiority has nothing to do with nationalism generically speaking. Giuseppe Mazzini was an important nationalist for example, and he was explicitly egalitarian. There are Syrian nationalists, Georgian nationalists, Kurdish nationalists, etc. How could all of these people feel superior? That's ridiculous. Superiority implies ultranationalism.
I characterize nationalism as an orientation with respect to policy; a reason to agree or disagree with your government. For example if you are a Uighur and you live in China and are a nationalist, then you oppose the government's policy. If you are an Ossetian nationalist and you live in Georgia, then you support the Ossetia separatist government. If you're a white nationalist and live in America, then you oppose the government's policies which protect non-whites.
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I wish Holden had some sort of pride. but that's another story.
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in the first post, I didn't even say the word "holocaust" I just pointed out that the nazis killed 11 million people in death camps and people focus exclusively on the Jews. Yes, overall, the jews were the main pet peeve of the nazis and they recieved the largest death toll overall. But my school never talked about how they killed gay people, or roma, or political prisoners.
I feel that if we harp exclusively on the treatment of jews, we miss the real message, that it was a horrible atrocity for everyone involved.
As for my use of the term "holocaust", it's somewhat open for debate as to whether all 11 million count. It's pretty easy to argue against me when you use your own definitions, huh?
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I swear to god, if this becomes another holocaust debate with finger pointing, I'll stress sigh in disappointment.