Terminator: Dark Fate - Cause we need another one of these apparently.

[Poe-Shen Zcela]

One TV Tropes User had this to say about John's death:

Terminator (film franchise)

tvtropes.org

"People were complaining about that in Genisys too. But, like, here's the thing. John isn't the main character. He never was. At least, not until T3 and T4 tried to push him as the new protagonist.

John is a Living MacGuffin. He's not even a character in T1; he exists strictly through reputation. He's the Terminator's motivation for trying to kill Sarah and Kyle Reese's motivation for protecting her. If Sarah survives, her son wins the future war and Skynet is toast. His existence is the ball being fought over by Kyle and the Terminator.
Then T2 comes along and the T-800 is after John. But he's still a Living MacGuffin. He's the victory condition; if the T-1000 kills John, Skynet wins, but if Sarah and the T-800 protect John, humanity wins.

Both films assure us that so long as John lives to see Judgment Day, humanity wins. But T2 prevented Judgment Day, which has been a thorn in the side of every attempt to sequel the films since. John, by all rights, should just be some guy in a post-T2 world.
Even if Skynet does wind up coming into existence years down the road like T3 postulated, the John Connor that led the war in T1 doesn't exist anymore. That future rendition of John who eats machines and shoots lightning from his dick? Sarah killed him alongside Skynet and every other event that would have happened after Judgment Day. Our John Connor isn't Thunder Dick John Connor. He's just Some Guy John Connor now, with nothing to offer the future beyond vague promises of an important destiny from a different future robot war.

That's actually one of the few things there is to like about T3 and T4. They make a plot point around the fact that Thunder Dick John Connor doesn't exist anymore. In stepping into the role of protagonist, Some Guy John Connor has to wrestle with living in his own shadow. He'll never be Thunder Dick. The events that created Thunder Dick are gone forever. Now there's a whole bunch of important people to the war effort that Skynet needs to kill, 'cause humanity's still winning the war but Some Guy John Connor can't just walk into Machine HQ and rub his balls in Skynet's face.

But those films are terrible and no one likes them, so they don't count. For Dark Fate, Cameron's excised them from continuity, which means he's right back where T3 was: John Connor doesn't matter anymore because the events leading to Thunder Dick slapping down Skynet were averted. So he's not a main character AND he's not a Living MacGuffin. In terms of plot relevance, where does that leave him? T3 and T4 tried to make him a main character and those movies sucked, so I guess the only other answer is "expendable for drama".

Thoughts?

Narrow-mindedness from people who are too used to blocky, trope-based analysis.

So because they averted Judgment Day, John is worthless as a character. On top of that, he was never a character, just an inanimate objective. That's a load of reductive horseshit. John is as important as the Future War in T1, and in T2 we finally got to meet him in both the present and the future. He became a real character we could see and empathize with. By the end, we as the audience were invested in both Sarah and John as they watched the T-800 descend into the molten steel. We felt with him and we hurt for him, with him, watching that scene.

Don't tell me he's nothing more than an "living" plot device, you weasely shits.

I feel old...the bright colorful past long gone, now all is there left is a bunch of cultural stagnation that shits on the past while having nothing better to replace it. All enjoyment? A souless property for disney to own and vault it away from the public for a fucking buck...

"Why are we still here? Just to suffer?"

We're gonna make 'em give back our past.

This theory is just a shitty excuse to follow their political leanings and embrace the disgusting anti-male, anti-family, and anti-civilization messages of the film.

Exactly. I'd rather watch Last Blood and Joker again.

 

[XYZpdq]

Doesn't Linda H. have a twin?


Linda Hamilton has a twin: Leslie:

Leslie Hamilton Gearren

Leslie Hamilton Gearren is the identical twin sister of Linda Hamilton and the maternal aunt of Dalton Abbott. Though professionally a nurse, and not an established actress herself, she appeared in three scenes in Terminator 2: Judgment Day as Linda's double. In her scenes, she is playing...

terminator.fandom.com

She doesn't look any younger than her sis in this or any other pics I've seen of her, but her longer hair and softer features (plus the fact that's she's in a nurturing profession like Nurse,) definitely makes her look the less craggy and bitter of the two.

yeah iirc one of the big tricks for the amazing double shots in T2 was "we hired people who were twins"

 

[Manwithn0n0men]

Narrow-mindedness from people who are too used to blocky, trope-based analysis.

So because they averted Judgment Day, John is worthless as a character. On top of that, he was never a character, just an inanimate objective. That's a load of reductive horseshit. John is as important as the Future War in T1, and in T2 we finally got to meet him in both the present and the future. He became a real character we could see and empathize with. By the end, we as the audience were invested in both Sarah and John as they watched the T-800 descend into the molten steel. We felt with him and we hurt for him, with him, watching that scene.

Don't tell me he's nothing more than an "living" plot device, you weasely shits.

We felt for him in T2 because of Arnie and Edward and Linda doing their job. Not because of how he was written. [He was also a lil bit of an audience insert]

T3 started the failure by not giving John a new reason to be important. Salvation bobbled that and Genysis said "Suberting expectations is so hot now"

If your a hollywood hack production company how do you give John a new compelling roll in the story and also have a torch passing to a female POC character?

killing him is simple housecleaning

 

[Poe-Shen Zcela]

I'm not interested in excuses for hacks, but I understand if it's a bullshit mandate from higher ups at least.

We felt for him in T2 because of Arnie and Edward and Linda doing their job. Not because of how he was written. [He was also a lil bit of an audience insert]

I'm not sure what you mean. Is it that he wasn't written to do anything but run away/be the "win objective"?

 

[JohnDoe]

We felt for him in T2 because of Arnie and Edward and Linda doing their job. Not because of how he was written. [He was also a lil bit of an audience insert]

I think he was written pretty well. Furlong doing well helped of course, but John was written with the seeds of his greatness planted. Trying to pretend that he wasn't a character in his own right is stupid.

 

[Manwithn0n0men]

I'm not sure what you mean. Is it that he wasn't written to do anything but run away/be the "win objective"?

John in the STORY doesnt have anything that makes him pop as a interesting or compelling character
its all on Edward Furlong's talent and charisma [and Cameron for using it sparingly]. Hamilton carried him as the distant mother and arnie as the cold father figure he was always longing for

 

[JohnDoe]

John in the STORY doesnt have anything that makes him pop as a interesting or compelling character
its all on Edward Furlong's talent and charisma [and Cameron for using it sparingly]. Hamilton carried him as the distant mother and arnie as the cold father figure he was always longing for

So did you not watch the movie at all? Go back and watch it again, I think you're failing to remember a lot of important details.

 

[Manwithn0n0men]

So did you not watch the movie at all? Go back and watch it again, I think you're failing to remember a lot of important details.

He was written fine but he wasn't the protagonist [Nor as a kid actor shoot he have been]. Nor did John's decisions drive the story [for most of the story he is largely a reactive agent]

 

[JohnDoe]

He was written fine but he wasn't the protagonist [Nor as a kid actor shoot he have been]. Nor did John's decisions drive the story [for most of the story he is largely a reactive agent]

Rewatch the film, dude.

 

[Manwithn0n0men]

Rewatch the film, dude.

I really should do that anyway since I am seeing this trash on thursday

 

[Poe-Shen Zcela]

Yeah, basically you're forgetting the subplots where John orders the T-800 not just to help him save his mom at Pescadero, but also stop his mom at the Dyson household. Then there's the whole CPU deleted scene on top of those two.

So he's definitely written with agency, if you were trying to imply the opposite. Without him, the story loses a key driver. It's because of him that Sarah is brought back into the story and given agency back. A motif of familial love underpins these subplots; despite being annoying or a maladjusted punk, John realized he was wrong to believe his mom was crazy, and he loves and cares about her safety and humanity. Hell, he even wanted to warn his foster parents about the T-1000, but he was too late.

It's easy to think he doesn't matter that much because of his co-stars and certain popular opinions, so I'm not blaming you that much. It didn't occur to me until I started to think more about T2 beyond the great action set pieces and the ending.

 

[Manwithn0n0men]

It's easy to think he doesn't matter that much because of his co-stars and certain popular opinions, so I'm not blaming you that much. It didn't occur to me until I started to think more about T2 beyond the great action set pieces and the ending.

Its also been like forever since I watched t2 last

 

[FernandoPooTragedy]

I heard "I'll be back." And nope'd the fuck out. T3 was such a raging assfire and I won't be fooled again. I heard enough about Salvation and Genysis to gag. I mean I'd love to watch another movie of Hamilton kicking ass but ironically in anything but her reprising the Sarah Connor role because the franchise is just that creatively bankrupt. I mean, when the Halloween franchise has more glimmers of hope than yours does...

I am getting so sick of the "GROUNDBREAKING INCLUSIVITY" narrative. Like, I am all for ass-kicking women and diversity and shit, but stop ignoring fucking history to get a clickbait byline. The only movies that ironically didn't pull that shit too much were the ones that actually deserved it. Wonder Woman was the first female superhero movie with some actual effort put in and was the culmination of a way-too-long wait for the cinematic adaptation of an actual groundbreaking female character. Yet compared to a lot of the female led blockbusters today, especially the Ghostbusters and Captain Marvel sperg-fests, it was relatively tame in its "FEMINIST GROUNDBREAKER" marketing push, female-only screenings and all. From a historical perspective, Wonder Woman had more of a right than any other film to push that shit. One of the chief influences on her creation was the first woman in history to get multiple advanced degrees, ffs. But if anything, Suicide Squad was pushed that way in terms of marketing more than Wonder Woman.
The other was Annihilation, which had a racially diverse all-female STEM action hero team right around the same time as GURLPWERbusters. And you barely heard a peep. And, once again, it was a vastly superior film to the movies that shove the "WERE SO GROUNDBREAKING YA GUYZ!" message down your throat. I don't mind seeing more diversity, but show some fucking humility about it and acknowledge your fucking roots. It's social plagiarism.

Then there was Widows, also a far better film GURLPWERbusters. And just a fantastic film in general. And SJW'S why people think they're a bunch of whiney, gullible, tasteless hypocrites.

Good Terminator films were female led. There's nothing new there. Same with Star Wars. I'm not even a huge hater of Disney Star Wars (though with every new announcement I inch closer to that status). I liked TFA and liked Rey. But in terms of feminism... she's nothing all that new for Star Wars. She's basically just a blue collar version of the heroines that came before. Star Wars is not breaking new ground but is pretending that it is and that annoys the shit out of me.

I mean, fuck, just give Linda Hamilton a new role and franchise. Make her the female Clint Eastwood: the new cinematic action alter kocker. She deserves it. You'd think after 3 movies they'd realize that this is a dry well. The time travel aspect especially makes it salted earth from a creative standpoint. If James Cameron thought he could have stretched that concept beyond two movies and have it not be incomprehensible trash, he would have.

 

[Manwithn0n0men]

I mean, fuck, just give Linda Hamilton a new role and franchise. Make her the female Clint Eastwood: the new cinematic action alter kocker. She deserves it. You'd think after 3 movies they'd realize that this is a dry well. The time travel aspect especially makes it salted earth from a creative standpoint. If James Cameron thought he could have stretched that concept beyond two movies and have it not be incomprehensible trash, he would have.

Terminator 2 put a bow on this because there wasnt anywhere else for this to go UNLESS you radically change it (ala Sarah Conner Chronicles)

 

[FernandoPooTragedy]

Terminator 2 put a bow on this because there wasnt anywhere else for this to go UNLESS you radically change it (ala Sarah Conner Chronicles)

AKA the only Terminator thing since T2 that had a glimmer of potential.

 

[RomanesEuntDomus]

Both are defined by an intense psychological need to be part of the "enlightened" community and absolute loyalty and obedience to whatever is deemed the supreme voice of truth/authority...no matter how fucking stupid and horrible it may be.

I think having mutually contradictory aspects within such an ideology is not so much a design flaw, but in some cases actually a design feature.
It's a major aspect behind doublethink that people believe two things at the same time, even though they can't be true at the same time.
You know you have your population by the balls, when they wholeheartedly believe that 2+2 equals 4 but at the same time also wholeheartedly believe that 2+2 equals 5. Or 3. Or 2 - depending on whatever the people in power want at that moment.

Sarah Connor Chronicles shows Terminators infiltrating family roles. A T-800 poses as a woman's dead husband. All she suspects is that he's suffering from depression. A T-1000 kills a couple, who leave behind a young child. The 1000 poses as the kid's mom. The kid's terrified of mommy's new personality until the 1000 starts to learn to mimic maternal behavior.
In both cases, it remains an act on the Terminator's part. Meanwhile, John's reprogrammed bot, Cameron, shows a lot of human behavior, but it's never quite clear if she's simply mimicking humans or exhibiting her own, very human personality.
Damn it, I wish that show had continued.

That sounds pretty good, maybe I should give the show a watch.
It certainly reminds me of the movie Screamers, where autonomous acting and self-replicating robots have turned an entire planet into an uninhabitable desert with only few human survivors locked in a pointless war. These Screamers look sort of like a mix between big sewer rats, the Terminator and a buzz-saw and they move underground, only ever coming out of the sand when they kill someone. The protagonists later meet an orphaned kid that they bring along on their journey. The kid is shot by a sniper and it is revealed to be a new model of Screamer, that pretends to be an orphaned kid, so humans pity it and allow it into their bunkers, where the "Type 3" Screamer then slaughters everyone.

Definitely way better than getting triple-tapped in the chest at age 11 while a 20-something Mexican chick takes your place because fuck you for existing.

Wait... The John Conner that gets killed in that movie is 11? Is this a joke?

The best one I had was when I brought up that the horror genre has basically been mostly ruled by women since Jamie Lee Curtis and she responded with "Those aren't real movies".

Maybe next time, you can point out how misogynistic it is to dismiss actresses in lead roles so bluntly.

One TV Tropes User had this to say about John's death:

Terminator (film franchise)

tvtropes.org

"People were complaining about that in Genisys too. But, like, here's the thing. John isn't the main character. He never was. At least, not until T3 and T4 tried to push him as the new protagonist.

John is a Living MacGuffin. He's not even a character in T1; he exists strictly through reputation. He's the Terminator's motivation for trying to kill Sarah and Kyle Reese's motivation for protecting her. If Sarah survives, her son wins the future war and Skynet is toast. His existence is the ball being fought over by Kyle and the Terminator.
Then T2 comes along and the T-800 is after John. But he's still a Living MacGuffin. He's the victory condition; if the T-1000 kills John, Skynet wins, but if Sarah and the T-800 protect John, humanity wins.

Both films assure us that so long as John lives to see Judgment Day, humanity wins. But T2 prevented Judgment Day, which has been a thorn in the side of every attempt to sequel the films since. John, by all rights, should just be some guy in a post-T2 world.
Even if Skynet does wind up coming into existence years down the road like T3 postulated, the John Connor that led the war in T1 doesn't exist anymore. That future rendition of John who eats machines and shoots lightning from his dick? Sarah killed him alongside Skynet and every other event that would have happened after Judgment Day. Our John Connor isn't Thunder Dick John Connor. He's just Some Guy John Connor now, with nothing to offer the future beyond vague promises of an important destiny from a different future robot war.

That's actually one of the few things there is to like about T3 and T4. They make a plot point around the fact that Thunder Dick John Connor doesn't exist anymore. In stepping into the role of protagonist, Some Guy John Connor has to wrestle with living in his own shadow. He'll never be Thunder Dick. The events that created Thunder Dick are gone forever. Now there's a whole bunch of important people to the war effort that Skynet needs to kill, 'cause humanity's still winning the war but Some Guy John Connor can't just walk into Machine HQ and rub his balls in Skynet's face.

But those films are terrible and no one likes them, so they don't count. For Dark Fate, Cameron's excised them from continuity, which means he's right back where T3 was: John Connor doesn't matter anymore because the events leading to Thunder Dick slapping down Skynet were averted. So he's not a main character AND he's not a Living MacGuffin. In terms of plot relevance, where does that leave him? T3 and T4 tried to make him a main character and those movies sucked, so I guess the only other answer is "expendable for drama".

Thoughts?

John isn't just a "winning state" in T2, as has been said. But even if he was, killing him off so non-chalantly is a gutblow to all fans of the original work.

You could set it up differently, where the new chick is still the new messiah, but you could keep John as sort of a Kyle Reese replacement or have him figure into the plot any other way. Sure, that would suck, but it would be better than to shit on the character out of spite and malice.

 

[RumblyTumbly]

Pretty much every Terminator film since T2 has little by little chipped away at the John Connor character.

T3: Meh casting in a meh script. Didn't necessarily ruin the character, but didn't do John any favors either. I guess you could say Judgment Day happening regardless of all their efforts meant that John failed, but I could also spin that as him having to face his destiny rather than run from it like he had for most of the movie. (BTW, is it sad that T3 looks so much better in hindsight? Back then I thought it was the worst and now I wish we could go back to when it was).

Salvation: We all thought the movie was going to be about him and then, uh, it wasn't. Makes that casting of Christian Bale seem like a waste, but whatever.

Genesys: This movie killed him and then made him the villain trying to stop his own parents from winning and was ultimately the worst Terminator ever put on screen.

Dark Fate: He dies in the first few minutes and made an afterthought just to be replaced by another character to achieve woke points for the slobbering Tumblr weirdos that actually give a crap about that kind of thing.

Some Messiah, am I right?

 

[Poe-Shen Zcela]

Wait... The John Conner that gets killed in that movie is 11? Is this a joke?

I believe he was 10 in T2, unless I'm confusing that with Eddie Furlong's age at the time. He could be anywhere from 10 to 13 by my estimation, so that would put him between 11 and 14 in Dark Fate.

Just consider it a post-birth abortion. I guess in this day and age, white kids are only good for sex slaves or organ trafficking to Hollyweird elites and glow-in-the-darks with flight plans to the Far East.

 

[Dom Cruise]

T3 was such a raging assfire and I won't be fooled again.

T3: Meh casting in a meh script. Didn't necessarily ruin the character, but didn't do John any favors either. I guess you could say Judgment Day happening regardless of all their efforts meant that John failed, but I could also spin that as him having to face his destiny rather than run from it like he had for most of the movie. (BTW, is it sad that T3 looks so much better in hindsight? Back then I thought it was the worst and now I wish we could go back to when it was).

T3 was the worst when the only other movies were 1 and 2, but I wouldn't call it a "raging assfire" either, however it never rises above mediocre.

The trouble with T3 for me was that it lacked any horror movie element like the first two films, this has been a continuing problem with the franchise, the T-X wasn't scary, yeah she was hot and I liked it when she was naked, but being chased by what looks like a female model is kind of silly, compare her to the T-1000 in T2 and how creepy he was.

And the whole movie was so brightly lit, almost always taking place during the daytime, it lacked the moody atmosphere of the first two films, not to mention too much goofy humor.

But with all that said it did deliver the action goods, it marked the end of an era for Arnold and T3 is also old enough by this point that it's an interesting time capsule of the early 2000s, much like T2 is a time capsule of the early 90s.

However even though I don't hate the movie at the end of the day I don't consider it "canon", only T1 and T2 are, but T3 is an acceptable "what if?" scenario I guess.

 

[Relic 31]

At this point I’m willing to accept “Terminator 2 3D: Battle Across Time” as canon over the latest films.