Terminator: Dark Fate - Cause we need another one of these apparently.

T3 was the worst when the only other movies were 1 and 2, but I wouldn't call it a "raging assfire" either, however it never rises above mediocre.

The trouble with T3 for me was that it lacked any horror movie element like the first two films, this has been a continuing problem with the franchise, the T-X wasn't scary, yeah she was hot and I liked it when she was naked, but being chased by what looks like a female model is kind of silly, compare her to the T-1000 in T2 and how creepy he was.

And the whole movie was so brightly lit, almost always taking place during the daytime, it lacked the moody atmosphere of the first two films, not to mention too much goofy humor.

But with all that said it did deliver the action goods, it marked the end of an era for Arnold and T3 is also old enough by this point that it's an interesting time capsule of the early 2000s, much like T2 is a time capsule of the early 90s.

However even though I don't hate the movie at the end of the day I don't consider it "canon", only T1 and T2 are, but T3 is an acceptable "what if?" scenario I guess.
Going to have to hard disagree. The only character more cringey than T-X (and I have no problem with T and A. I haven't watched Beyond the Valley of the Dolls half a dozen times for the story) was Claire Danes's character. The whole movie had a huge identity crisis and was boring as balls to boot. I will admit that not watching the last two has probably spoiled me. But it was the right call, so I can't say I have regrets.
 
Salvation: We all thought the movie was going to be about him and then, uh, it wasn't. Makes that casting of Christian Bale seem like a waste, but whatever.

John Connor was supposed to die in that movie, too!
Wikipedia said:
The original ending was to have John killed, and his image kept alive by the resistance by grafting his skin onto Marcus' cybernetic body. Marcus would have then murdered Kate, Barnes, Kyle, and Star. However, after the ending was leaked on the Internet, Warner Bros. decided to completely change the entire third act of the film.
Why do these Hollywood hacks have this hardon for killing and disgracing John Connor? We never got to see the promised great man that John was supposed to become.
 
The trouble with T3 for me was that it lacked any horror movie element like the first two films, this has been a continuing problem with the franchise, the T-X wasn't scary, yeah she was hot and I liked it when she was naked, but being chased by what looks like a female model is kind of silly, compare her to the T-1000 in T2 and how creepy he was.

I didn't think the T-X was scary either until she buzzsawed a dude offscreen and punched through a fat cops' guts. If nothing else, I think that satisfied a slasher horror aspect for T3.

She's still got nothing on the T-1000's menacing presence, but even then, T2 was less horror and more action / suspense thriller. The real kill count and horror factor goes to the T-800 from T1. About 30 cops, 2 domestic victims, 2 street punks, and 1 truck driver.

This article says $12.8m from 10 countries and an expected $35-45m US opening. It'll probably have to rely on China to bail them out... again.

That sounds pretty weak. It's been about 6 days now.

China didn't really bail Genisys out though, or if it did, then just by a hair. Either way, we didn't get Genisys 2, we got Dark Fate.

I say it'll do worse in China than Genisys did. Dark Fate doesn't even have an Asian lead, and most of the actors besides Arnold and maybe Gabriel Luna aren't particularly pretty or handsome. Linda's an old crusty Hillary lookalike, MacKenzie looks like a dyke, and Natalia's a shortass. If there's a hardcore T2 audience over there, then I doubt they'd be anymore thrilled at watching John get murdered point-blank for no reason.

The best chance this movie has is as an offbeat dark comedy action thriller.
 
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Starting my Rewatch of T2.....John is a little bit more then a living macguffin......but for most of the movie he is. However he had a good character arc in this movie that could have been interesting
 
Starting my Rewatch of T2.....John is a little bit more then a living macguffin......but for most of the movie he is. However he had a good character arc in this movie that could have been interesting

By that logic, you could probably argue that Sarah in T1 was a living macguffin for part of the movie, if not for the whole movie until Kyle's out of the picture.

I wonder how TVTropes would've felt about John was the one who shot the T-1000 with the grenade launcher. That would've been interesting, right? If the T-800 was dead for good and John had to act to survive in the end.
 
By that logic, you could probably argue that Sarah in T1 was a living MacGuffin for part of the movie, if not for the whole movie until Kyle's out of the picture.
Her vagina is :-p

But on a more serious note: Interaction with John (and his decisions) brings out the humanity in Dyson, Sarah, and Uncle Bob. The extent of his agency is to drive other characters to evolve and grow.

After rewatching T2 this movie feels more and more gross and like a serious violation of humanity
 
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Isn't that enough for a character? I mean, that and saving Sarah from the T-1000.

Again, I wonder how this conversation would go if John were the one to kill the T-1000, like Sarah did in the first movie.

Regarding her and her womb, I'd argue you can't have one without the other. She could've either pussied out (heh) or been extra super-woke and decided to BE the leader of the future, and just have aborted John instead. Wouldn't that have subverted expectations.

More to the point, I guess the question boils down to "Who is the main character of T2?" Is it John, Sarah, or the T-800? Do they share the role of "main character"?

In other news, James Cameron behaves predictably:


Basically in Interview 1 from October 22, 2019:
  • James Cameron pumps up his involvement in the writing & editing process of Dark Fate, taking credit for Carl & suggesting several edits "both broad and specific" after watching a rough cut at the beginning of the year
  • He also reveals that David Ellison was the one who pitched Dark Fate to him as a "back to basics" film where Cameron could make his sequel to T2, despite reiterating later that this was Tim Miller's film the same way that Alita was Robert Rodriguez's film
Fast-forward to Interview 2 from October 28, 2019:
  • Cameron admits to there being many arguments (presumably with Tim) in the editing process for Dark Fate.
  • He contrasts his experience with Robert on Alita--where Robert wanted to make a film the way Cameron saw it but was told "No, you got to make it your movie"--with his experience with Tim on Dark Fate--where Tim wanted to make Dark Fate his movie and Cameron was like, "Yeah, but I kind of know a little about this world."
Finally, Mr H agrees this won't do well in China. It probably won't even make money. Apparently it cost more than Genisys, and the outrage marketing tactic backfired severely for Skydance.

Get woke go broke, fuckers: You're terminated.


 
I won't bother watching the film on screens. From what I gathered, though, it's just a shittier T2 remake.

Man, bit of an unpopular opinion, but I'd rather have a continuation of Genisys. At least that film was vaguely original--and oddly treated John Connor with more respect than killing him off in the first fucking minutes of the film.
 
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Isn't that enough for a character? I mean, that and saving Sarah from the T-1000.



Basically in Interview 1 from October 22, 2019:
  • James Cameron pumps up his involvement in the writing & editing process of Dark Fate, taking credit for Carl & suggesting several edits "both broad and specific" after watching a rough cut at the beginning of the year
  • He also reveals that David Ellison was the one who pitched Dark Fate to him as a "back to basics" film where Cameron could make his sequel to T2, despite reiterating later that this was Tim Miller's film the same way that Alita was Robert Rodriguez's film
Fast-forward to Interview 2 from October 28, 2019:
  • Cameron admits to there being many arguments (presumably with Tim) in the editing process for Dark Fate.
  • He contrasts his experience with Robert on Alita--where Robert wanted to make a film the way Cameron saw it but was told "No, you got to make it your movie"--with his experience with Tim on Dark Fate--where Tim wanted to make Dark Fate his movie and Cameron was like, "Yeah, but I kind of know a little about this world."
Finally, Mr H agrees this won't do well in China. It probably won't even make money. Apparently it cost more than Genisys, and the outrage marketing tactic backfired severely for Skydance.

Get woke go broke, fuckers: You're terminated.



I bet he didnt do any of those things but was contractually obligated to say otherwise.

As for the nature of John Connor....what are his drives? He is a 10 year old kid who is acting out against his foster parents when we meet him and he rejects all the destiny junk his mom said because he thinks she's crazy

then it turns out not to be crazy and John just goes with it.

We look at "Uncle Bob" well he is just a machine programmed to protect John. And he grows into a more human-machine as his programming evolves to John's programming. And it gives depth and nuance to the character.

Sarah wants to save her son so he can save the world. She wants to stop Judgement day [at any cost]. But she learns ANY COST is sacrificing her humanity. So she finds another way and nearly dies in the process several times.

She is the main character. She has agency but isnt able to act fully until the mid point of the film. And John and "Uncle Bob" can only react to the choices she makes in the rest of the film.

I won't bother watching the film on screens. From what I gathered, though, it's just a shittier T2 remake.

Man, bit of an unpopular opinion, but I'd rather have a continuation of Genisys. At least that film was vaguely original--and oddly treated John Connor with more respect than killing him off in the first fucking minutes of the film.

John as Villian of his own story would at least be interesting
 
She is the main character. She has agency but isnt able to act fully until the mid point of the film. And John and "Uncle Bob" can only react to the choices she makes in the rest of the film.

By the same token, before that point Uncle Bob could only react to John's choices, but after that point I'd say you're right. The only exception would be in the CPU deleted scene, where John reacts to Sarah & then Sarah reacts to John, ultimately letting him have the final word on whether the T-800 lived or died.
 
By the same token, before that point Uncle Bob could only react to John's choices, but after that point I'd say you're right. The only exception would be in the CPU deleted scene, where John reacts to Sarah & then Sarah reacts to John, ultimately letting him have the final word on whether the T-800 lived or died.
But John didnt really make a choice

He wanted to save his mom because he wanted to save his mom. While the T-800 advised him it wasnt tactically sound there wasnt any motivation for John to have to decide with. There was never a chance he was going to NOT save her
 
He wanted to save his mom because he wanted to save his mom. While the T-800 advised him it wasnt tactically sound there wasnt any motivation for John to have to decide with. There was never a chance he was going to NOT save her

This is just post rationalization because you don't want to change your mind or admit that you were incorrect. The choice to go rescue Sarah or flee had powerful motivations in either direction and was important for narrative and character reasons. He could flee and secure much better odds for his own life, and the fate of the war with Skynet OR go to save his mother, and potentially risk it all for love and family. I'm certain that more than one autist on this very board would have argued against going to rescue her, and the Terminator's cold logic certainly put up a strong case. That John chooses to risk himself for Sarah is part of an ongoing theme in T1 and T2 about the importance of family, and more specifically is about John's compassion and willingness to sacrifice his own life and happiness for others.

Even though his own actions result in the abortion of Skynet, John proves himself to have the seeds of the human messiah in the War Against the Machines with his very human compassion, calm leadership, and steely determination to safeguard the future. We ultimately see this in the deleted (though I now consider it canon) scene, where in the absence of war John has become a dedicated father and politician, working in peacetime to guide his personal and social families towards greatness.
 
I think making the person to protect NotJohn in this movie a ManMachine hybrid could be interesting, but they don't seem to have taken advantage of it in any way.
The original Ghost in the Shell is all about an AI becoming self-aware and asks the question, how and when a machine can become equal to a human/living organism.
The sequel goes the other way around, where people's conciousness is put into robot bodies and here, the movie shines a light on the question "When does a human become equal to a machine?"
I think that could have become an interesting aspect to explore in this movie... and watching an augmented human being go toe to toe with a Terminator should be awesome, but somehow, it seemingly isn't.

But John didnt really make a choice

He wanted to save his mom because he wanted to save his mom. While the T-800 advised him it wasnt tactically sound there wasnt any motivation for John to have to decide with. There was never a chance he was going to NOT save her
Frankly, this whole argument sounds sort of like a very nitpicky rundown of every moment John showed agency and trying to come up with weird rules on why that doesn't count.
That point about him saving his mom highlights that issue.

Is John a strong protagonist with lots of agency and acitvely shaping the plot? No.
But he's not just some McGuffin Winning Condition as that one soy-post earlier implied. He does show agency, he does interact in ways with other characters to influence them actively. He has to react to a lot of shit, but to go off on a bit of a weird tangent:
In Titanic, Rose and Jack react to the Titanic sinking, that doesn't make them McGuffins and it doesn't make the iceberg or the ship the protagonist. That is to say: A strong protagonist is someone who acitvely shapes the storyline, but depending on the plot, a protagonist can be forced into reacting to the outer circumstances, ie: John who has to react to his mom setting out to kill that black scientist dude. He also orders Arnie not to kill anyone early on, which affects the plot throughout the entire movie. I guess one could argue that John's arc in T2 is to transform from being a passive person that has stuff happen to them to someone who makes some decisions and shape their own fate, even if it's only a small start. If you go for that argument, you could also claim that T2 thus shows how the very events of that movie shape him to be a bit closer to the kind of person that he needs to be to defeat Skynet in the future.

But I digress, the point is that John, whether he's an active protagonist or not, still is a character, not just some tagalong plot device.

That John chooses to risk himself for Sarah is part of an ongoing theme in T1 and T2 about the importance of family, and more specifically is about John's compassion and willingness to sacrifice his own life and happiness for others.

The movie doesn't beat you over the head with it, but the question does arise:
If mere survival is the goal and we sacrifice our ideals, our loved ones in the process, what point is there in survival?
That's why John's decision to rescue his mother/prevent her from killing Dyson is so important.

Future John Connor has to be the kind of guy that is willing to sacrifice everything to rescue others, otherwise he won't be the leader that rescues humanity.
By deciding to rescue his mother, he becomes the person that can safe humanity.
 
This is just post rationalization because you don't want to change your mind or admit that you were incorrect. The choice to go rescue Sarah or flee had powerful motivations in either direction and was important for narrative and character reasons.
No: There was no chance in T2 (as constructed) they werent saving Sarah. So it wasnt an actual choice

The movie doesn't beat you over the head with it, but the question does arise:
If mere survival is the goal and we sacrifice our ideals, our loved ones in the process, what point is there in survival?
That's why John's decision to rescue his mother/prevent her from killing Dyson is so important.

Future John Connor has to be the kind of guy that is willing to sacrifice everything to rescue others, otherwise he won't be the leader that rescues humanity.
By deciding to rescue his mother, he becomes the person that can safe humanity.

But some sacrifices make it so what your fighting for has become invalidated. If Sarah kills Miles she is no better then skynet. If Miles allows his work to continue then he is responsible for the consequences. If the T800 stays with John it knows Skynet will just come back.....etc
 
I don't think you're making much sense here. Your rationalizing post-hoc that John never had a choice because he made a choice in the movie, and that's how it always had to have played out. That's like saying that Luke in TLJ was always going to turn out like that, because that's just what happened. He had no choice; that's the only way the story could've played out.

I'm not sure what you mean by your second paragraph.
 
John Connor was supposed to die in that movie, too!

Why do these Hollywood hacks have this hardon for killing and disgracing John Connor? We never got to see the promised great man that John was supposed to become.
You already know the answer. John Connor is a white male, you're not allowed to have those filthy misogynist nazi cave beasts in a heroic role. Thats for fierce trans womyn of color only!

Wouldn't that have subverted expectations.
Star destroyers? I'm gonna cum!
 
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