Terminator: Dark Fate - Cause we need another one of these apparently.

[Manwithn0n0men]

I don't think you're making much sense here. Your rationalizing post-hoc that John never had a choice because he made a choice in the movie, and that's how it always had to have played out. That's like saying that Luke in TLJ was always going to turn out like that, because that's just what happened. He had no choice; that's the only way the story could've played out.

I'm not sure what you mean by your second paragraph.

Second Paragraph was a theme

Machines will sacrifice anything

Humans know their are some sacrifices that are to big.

And to my first Paragraph:

The movie never entertained the Idea Sarah Connor wasnt going to get saved by the T800 and John. Part of the value of the T800 was in her incredible reaction to it. But the movie doesnt even have John being resentful of his mother even though he knows she wasnt REALLY crazy ((ok she kind of was)).

and while SAVING John is the prime programming point to do that he is going to need lots of weapons. Which Sarah has. So this would be a time where the machine points out the tactical necessity for her survival. Their are enough points where John humanizes uncle bob you don't need that.....and this would be John actually making a choice and going through with some struggles as a character.

Also it would allow you to handwave John being reactive to the Miles Dyson incident later as John almost sacrificed his mother for his own safety and he can't do that again which would parallel Sarah's same Revelation in Myles' house.

If a character doesnt have a realistic reason to make both choices then the movie is taking us on a railroad....and thats fine....but that makes john more foil then proper character. And he is a bit of a Messiah figure as he leads others to their humanity. But he leads them from an unearned position kinda sorta

 

[Feline Supremacist]

and while SAVING John is the prime programming point to do that he is going to need lots of weapons. Which Sarah has. So this would be a time where the machine points out the tactical necessity for her survival. Their are enough points where John humanizes uncle bob you don't need that.....and this would be John actually making a choice and going through with some struggles as a character.

It seems you don't remember the first movie. Weaponry is irrelevant since a Terminator would just find the nearest armory and take whatever was needed. Sarah Connor isn't there because John needs an arsenal, he frees her because when Arnold saves him he realizes everything Sarah said was true. Arnold points out having her around is a liability but John overrules his objection because he saves Sarah, his mother, out of love. You see the disappointment in John when she scolds him for breaking her out. I mean, he's still a child.

 

[Manwithn0n0men]

It seems you don't remember the first movie. Weaponry is irrelevant since a Terminator would just find the nearest armory and take whatever was needed. Sarah Connor isn't there because John needs an arsenal, he frees her because when Arnold saves him he realizes everything Sarah said was true. Arnold points out having her around is a liability but John overrules his objection because he saves Sarah, his mother, out of love. You see the disappointment in John when she scolds him for breaking her out. I mean, he's still a child.

You missed the point of my exercise

I was trying [on the fly] to come up with a way for John to have a choice in that scene which
A ) is a actual choice [The movie is valid if he goes either way]
B ) He has motivations for both choices (established by his character)
C ) His interactions with other characters [in this case the T800] informs and changes his choice

 

[BScCollateral]

You see the disappointment in John when she scolds him for breaking her out. I mean, he's still a child.

It also brings up a plot point others have mentioned.

Sarah wants to keep John alive. Not only is she his mother, but he is the savior of humanity. She gets angry with him when he endangers his life.

At the same time, if John did not risk his own life, he couldn't be the savior of humanity.

 

[JohnDoe]

You missed the point of my exercise

Can we just skip ahead to the final goal post move where you claim John couldn't make a choice because he's a fictional character and all his decisions were actually made by the script writer? It's the obvious destination of your shitposting crusade.

 

[Manwithn0n0men]

Can we just skip ahead to the final goal post move where you claim John couldn't make a choice because he's a fictional character and all his decisions were actually made by the script writer? It's the obvious destination of your shitposting crusade.

No: I am just saying he didnt have actual choices in the script (for reasons I pointed out above)

 

[Feline Supremacist]

No: I am just saying he didnt have actual choices in the script (for reasons I pointed out above)

He did, he chose both Option A and Option B.

 

[Manwithn0n0men]

He did, he chose both Option A and Option B.

What would motivate John (based on his established character) to abandon his mother?
What would motivate John (based on his established character) to save his mother?

He saves his mother because he saves her....he doesnt have a reason so its not a real choice.
At no point does he consider NOT saving his mother so again...not a real choice
And and no point does the reality of the film give you a sense he isnt going to save his mother

 

[Poe-Shen Zcela]

You missed the point of my exercise

I was trying [on the fly] to come up with a way for John to have a choice in that scene which
A ) is a actual choice [The movie is valid if he goes either way]
B ) He has motivations for both choices (established by his character)
C ) His interactions with other characters [in this case the T800] informs and changes his choice

D) All of the above

What would motivate John (based on his established character) to abandon his mother?

"Hey kid, your mom's a psycho, didn't you know?"

What would motivate John (based on his established character) to save his mother?

"But everything she said was true. She knew ... and nobody believed her. Not even me."

Let's compare to Star Wars again. In ESB, did Luke have a real choice between saving his friends or continuing his training? If so, then how is this different than John? In this analogy, Luke is John and Yoda is the T-800.

 

[Manwithn0n0men]

Let's compare to Star Wars again. In ESB, did Luke have a real choice between saving his friends or continuing his training? If so, then how is this different than John? In this analogy, Luke is John and Yoda is the T-800.

Luke absolutely did

Save the friends and fail to complete his training with master yoda
don't save his friends, complete his training but be an acceptable Jedi to Yoda's way of thinking [which was flawed and thats the whole point of RoTJ]

that was a 100% real choice. Especially following his "confrontation" with Vader in the cave. It alludes to the fact if he takes this path he runs the risk of falling to the dark side.

further luke going off to train in the first place put his friends in increased risk so he felt guilty about that at some level when he became aware of their troubles

 

[Poe-Shen Zcela]

So are we measuring this by consequence then? If so, then the consequence of Luke leaving to Bespin in the film is he gets his ass nearly killed, but gives his friends an opportunity to escape. Then in the next movie, they all come back together and defeat the Empire for good, so it all worked out.

The consequence of John going to Pescadero was, in the end, giving himself the best chance at survival (now Sarah can protect him & she has access to heavy artillery) and the capacity to prevent Judgment Day altogether. I hesitate to call endangering his life a consequence, since nothing ended up happening to him besides an extremely close brush with the T-1000, but that's all I can think of as far as a negative consequence, like what Luke suffered in ESB.

I suppose you could say that T2 skips over any moral conflict John has with rescuing his mom, but he nevertheless made the choice on his own rather than listen to the T-800. Arguably it's a much simpler choice in his case because he's 10, but does being a child make him less of a character, or have less of a choice?

 

[Feline Supremacist]

He's 12 years old. His mom is in the nut house because she believes future death robots are coming, it's too crazy even for California so she's locked up and he's with meth freaks using him for free govt monies. Mom taught him things no other 12 year old kids know (or should know) because again, he saves everyone from bad robots. He's pissed off because crazy mom, asshole foster parents and life sucks and suddenly an actual future robot comes to kill him and then a different future robot comes to save him and tells him everything his mom says is true. He wants to save mom but future robot says nope bad idea.

He's still a child and wants his mommy. But if mommy is right he can't because he has to save the world. Wat do?

Spoiler

Why not both?

 

[Manwithn0n0men]

So are we measuring this by consequence then? If so, then the consequence of Luke leaving to Bespin in the film is he gets his ass nearly killed, but gives his friends an opportunity to escape. Then in the next movie, they all come back together and defeat the Empire for good, so it all worked out.

No its about actual motives and reasoning. Things we have SEEN in the movie(s in refrence to look), things the characters have said etc. That establishes their motivation when it comes to the point of the choice. And either choice needs to be valid within the context of the story. And the consequences of the choice need to drive the plot (oneway or another)

I suppose you could say that T2 skips over any moral conflict John has with rescuing his mom, but he nevertheless made the choice on his own rather than listen to the T-800. Arguably it's a much simpler choice in his case because he's 10, but does being a child make him less of a character, or have less of a choice?

because of how the T800 is scripted it makes john REACTIVE not ACTIVE and that further makes it a false choice.

and 10 year olds have motivations and drives. John didnt have any established in the movie prior to the inciting incident at the mall happening

He's 12 years old. His mom is in the nut house because she believes future death robots are coming, it's too crazy even for California so she's locked up and he's with meth freaks using him for free govt monies. Mom taught him things no other 12 year old kids know (or should know) because again, he saves everyone from bad robots. He's pissed off because crazy mom, asshole foster parents and life sucks and suddenly an actual future robot comes to kill him and then a different future robot comes to save him and tells him everything his mom says is true. He wants to save mom but future robot says nope bad idea.

He's still a child and wants his mommy. But if mommy is right he can't because he has to save the world. Wat do?

Spoiler

Why not both?

IF this was in the movie that would be valid. They PROBABLY ((idk i'd have to like research it)) didnt build a super indepth John Connor character because kid actors are known to have a limited range and they probably didnt think Edward could pull that off

 

[XYZpdq]

or maybe it's just a movie about robots who travel back in time to punch each other while a bunch of shit blows up and you're massively overthinking this crap

 

[RumblyTumbly]

His mom is in the nut house because she believes future death robots are coming, it's too crazy even for California

Sorry but I lol'd at that line harder than I should have.

 

[Commander X]

Terminator: Dark Fate (2019) - Rotten Tomatoes

The critical consensus, according to a review aggregation site owned by the movie studios, where the site overlords will do everything they can to twist even the most faint or backhanded praise into a solid "Fresh" for certain films?

Terminator: Dark Fate represents a significant upgrade over its immediate predecessors, even if it lacks the thrilling firepower of the franchise's best installments.

Well, that's really glowing and positive! A typical positive review

As a passable piece of entertainment that re-teams old talent and adds a new wrinkle or two, the movie generally succeeds.

Oh, let me get right down to the cinematic parlor now, reviews like this make it sound like a cannot miss piece of film!

 

[Poe-Shen Zcela]

and 10 year olds have motivations and drives. John didnt have any established in the movie prior to the inciting incident at the mall happening

I'll grant that. All he wanted to do was play videogames, but unfortunately he lived in a society, and so he had to rise up.

because of how the T800 is scripted it makes john REACTIVE not ACTIVE and that further makes it a false choice.

If it weren't for the Terminators, that's true. He wouldn't have decided to go rescue his mom from the T-1000. Same as Luke, who wouldn't have decided to go with Obi-Wan if it weren't for R2-D2 & C3P0 being sought out by the Empire, leading to the death of his foster parents. The only difference is John never had his binary sunset scene.

And either choice needs to be valid within the context of the story. And the consequences of the choice need to drive the plot (oneway or another)

Either would've been valid, though. If John listened to the T-800 and let his mom die, it would've been tragic & changed the course of the film. If Luke listened to Yoda, then either his friends would've been killed before long or he would have to have rescued them, which could have gone either way.

or maybe it's just a movie about robots who travel back in time to punch each other while a bunch of shit blows up and you're massively overthinking this crap

You mean like a film about space wizards intended for children?

 

[Manwithn0n0men]

Either would've been valid, though. If John listened to the T-800 and let his mom die, it would've been tragic & changed the course of the film. If Luke listened to Yoda, then either his friends would've been killed before long or he would have to have rescued them, which could have gone either way.

but the movie made it clear there was no reality in which John wasnt saving his mom. But it wasnt grounded in the reality of the character beyond "of course a kid in foster care would want to save his mom"

You mean like a film about space wizards intended for children?

If you train yourself on stuff like this you can break down more complex films

 

[DeadwastePrime]

so this movie is just gonna be a "it was okay. couldve been worse" movie isnt it?

 

[Poe-Shen Zcela]

but the movie made it clear there was no reality in which John wasnt saving his mom. But it wasnt grounded in the reality of the character beyond "of course a kid in foster care would want to save his mom"

Right, so T2 didn't spend 2 minutes forcing John to contemplate leaving his mother behind. Because the natural response for John is to go save her, it isn't a real choice. I disagree; a choice is a choice. Having John weigh the decision for more than a minute would make him a shittier person, someone more inclined to value his own life than risk it for someone he loves. Being natural, or of decent character, shouldn't be a disqualification should it? Because if so, then that should also apply to Luke, who did love his friends and was a man of decent character.

It's different from Sarah's morally dubious choice of killing Dyson, something John was a lot more clear about. Sarah was motivated by a recurring nightmare, as well as her own experience in T1. John is motivated by simply loving his mother & regretting not having believed in her.

so this movie is just gonna be a "it was okay. couldve been worse" movie isnt it?

I'd peg this as the worst on the grounds of nostalgia-baiting, nostalgia-killing, and overall being the least creative and daring of all the sequels.