Star Wars Griefing Thread (SPOILERS) - Safety off

[Krokodil Overdose]

Will the Disney Wars years, late 2015 to late 2019, go down in history as the worst period for pop culture?

One standout though would be Blade Runner 2049.

I don't think so; I think it's going to go down as a period of extremes. You have Wokebusters... but you also have Joker. You have Game of Thrones violently shitting itself to death accompanied by sad trombone music... but you also have Chernobyl. There is good stuff out there, but the dross is so much shittier than previous simply because it's been endlessly recycled, Human Centipede style, to the point where it will taint previously good things if you let it.

 

[Honka Honka Burning Love]

Side Note: Am I the only one who's getting sick and tired of these channels doing this begging routine for subs? Because it's been months; I get it. Stop please.

You can't because people are too stupid to think "Oh I like this video I should sub to this person" while watching a video unless they are reminded.

 

[Adamska]

You can't because people are too stupid to think "Oh I like this video I should sub to this person" while watching a video unless they are reminded.

It's more that I'm tired of them kvetching about the sub drops and purges and the new algorithm. It's been months since that happened and I'm tired of hearing it.

It's not paid promotion level, but it just grates like a splinter in the brain.

Speaking of splinters in the brain, I can't wait until Disney manages to get their streamed shows leaked so we can find out how fucking shit those will be so we can save some people from losing money they could use for Taco Bell.

 

[Krokodil Overdose]

I see your point and it is a good point. For one thing, the FO has blown up not 1 but 5 planets, which killed enough people that it might be measured in trillions. And it goes without saying, the Geneva Convention doesn't apply to the galaxy far, far away.

But here's the thing:
In the old movies, Luke discards his light sabre instead of striking down Palpatine or his father. It is a clear victory of virtue over evil. The protagonists should be heroic and do "the right thing", even in the face of literally unrelenting evil.
On the other hand, "the right thing" is based on our morals and ethics. Sure, you could say they have different morals in Star Wars, but pragmatically speaking, since it is a story, it is inevitably going to be based on our understanding of what is right and wrong.

And here's the deal: Sending a detachement that pretends to be on a diplomatic mission, claims diplomatic immunity to negotiate with someone, just so that detachment can then use that diplomatic immunity as a cloaking mechanism and surprise attack the enemy is one of the worst things that anyone can do in a war. It is pretty much only outclassed by a holocaust-style genocide. This has to be something that is true for all halfway civilized people, since the ability to have negotiations, to have diplomatic immunity, is absolutely necessary. It is in no one's interest to abuse this basic rule, since it takes away your ability to ever negotiate again with anyone.
If you're the guy that will pretend to talk things through before suckerpunching your enemy, no one will ever stop pounding your face into the dirt, no matter how often you beg for mercy. And they'd be justified in doing so. That's why pretending to be on a diplomatic mission is inevitably a dick move by Poe.

Again: The argument that the Resistance does not have to play by the rules since the First Order does not play by the rules either does make sense... but the Resistance are the good guys, they have to embody certain virtues and values to be the good guys and pretending to have a desire for negotiations is not a trivial matter.

I think you're overthinking this. Laws of war exist and there are reasons for them that are good on paper (though as @Uranus Pink noted, really, the biggest crime in war is losing) but even so, they're very abstract and have very little emotional impact inherent to them. You see a torture scene, and it feels wrong because you empathize to some degree with the victim, making it viscerally repulsive; you don't need to cite chapter and verse of some UN convention to get that feeling. We expect the good guys to be good, but we tend to rate that by how good their actions feel based on how we experience them in the moment, not how they uphold (or don't) some legislation we've never read.

To the specific point, the paucity of storytelling in Disney Wars plays a part here. The Rebellion and the Empire (sorry, "Resistance" and "First Order") are the only two factions, and they're playing a zero-sum game. No tactic would be off-limits because nobody (in-universe or in the audience) seriously believes that they're going to negotiate in good faith, and there's apparently no other factions to worry about, so it's total war all the way down. If the game had more players, it could get political, but it doesn't.

 

[AverageAnimeWatcher]

Did Halo go woke? I haven't heard a damn thing about it since Halo 4, and I only ever played the original.

A bit late, but yeah.

Everyone already knows how the writing took a nosedive, but, one thing I'm shocked nobody is mentioning is how blatantly they tried to replace Masterchief with a black dude. He was only in 3 missions out of 15 while the other guy was on the rest.

Which was odd to me as, obscure lore aside, the Masterchief didn't have to be white. His physical appearance was a mystery so he might as well had been any minority... but once they revealed he was an old white dude. Well you know the rest.

Naturally, the fandom didn't take this well and they demanded Masterchief back, and they had to backtrack on this. Too bad we can't do the same with Luke.

DAILY. However, my point is, I need help in addressing my friends and family. They are so blinded in a deep haze, that they can't "see the forest for the trees," perhaps because as I said, there is just so much. Even real fans I know--for example, I tuned into the livestream for the last Celebration, like a fool. Some of the very same people who were jumping up and down and screaming against the atrocity that was Episode 8 the year before were IN the audience, jumping up and down and screaming for more Disney product.

Not by fighting what you hate, but by saving what you love....but unironically. Let me explain:

I personally do watch Clownfish and Doomcuck, because it's cathartic and a bit of Schadenfreude after what they did to the old trilogy. And if they are into that type of thing watching those might help. But I assume your family and friends, like your average moviegoer, don't care that much and just see a trailer on youtube and then watch the movie.

As they say, Don't ask questions, just consume product and then get excited for next product

So if you want them to get REALLY angry, just show them not what we hate of Disney, but why we loved Star Wars in the first place (aka saving what we love). Invite them to a marathon and binge-watch the old movies.

As I've said before, TFA seems like an amazing movie...if you haven't watched a New Hope. Then it becomes clear how bad it is. Honestly most of the few people that seem to genuinely, and unironically, love TLJ haven't seen either the prequels or the original trilogy. So for them, this is as good as it gets.

You don't see how bad as villains Kylo and Snoke are until you see Vader and the emperor. Or how Bad Rey and Kylo's lightsaber skills are compared to the Jedi in the prequels. Nothing Disney has done comes even close to match the lightsaber duel between Obi-Wan and Anakin in Mustafar, Rey and Kylo seem like kids playing with broomsticks in comparison.

I could go on.

The point is, once you have the real deal, you can't go back to the cheap imitations.

I suppose it's still possible to still prefer Disney. But, honestly, if you have watched Star Wars at it's best, and you still think Disney's abomination is better... A guy that, unironically likes the taste of Orange juice+toothpaste has much better taste than you.

 

[RomanesEuntDomus]

Exactly, even when an anime or manga is formulaic, they're still more often than not good natured enough that you're entertained, SJW media on the other hand is so mean spirited it sucks any potential fun out of anything.

SJWs have a habit of making media that very narrowly focuses on their agenda and goes out of its way to insult and belittle you if you do not enjoy that very specific agenda. But I doubt that most people, even amongst the SJW crowd unironically enjoy that agenda. I think they just know they are expected to love it or they just get off on the misery that agenda causes other people (for instance fans of the original Ghostbusters, who are unhappy with the low-brow humor and shitty acting).

We live in weird times where media outright insults you for being invested in it . . .

Again you are assuming the plot is crucial to the story. The Director and Co-Creator of the Script [Rian Johnson] doesnt work that way

The point is that there is no such line of dialogue that the people on Canto Bight are perpetuating the war. That is nothing that is said or stated within the movie. That is what YOU interpret into the movie. It is possible that Ruin said it afterwards, but there is nothing in the movie to this end.
The movie shows profiteers. Nothing more.

Nothing really makes super sense in these movies Military Strategy wise.....thats why George never focused on it.

I would disagree. Sure, the movies use soft-sci-fi rules inspired by WW2 dogfighting but other than that, strategy wise, the old movies are very sound.
They follow a setup of rules. TLJ does not.

Don't misunderstand me. I am not saying the movie is RIGHT with what it is asserting. I am saying to read the movie as a text you need to look at what its asserting in its own language and address that. And address "Ok if Poe is wrong in the moral language your using movie then what does that mean elsewhere?" That tells you alot about the themes, plot, messages, etc of the film

I guess we could agree to this:
The movie treats Poe's decision as a mistaken in tone and character-interaction, but according to what is actually happening (ie: a big fucking ship with insane strategic value to the FO is destroyed), the movie shows that he was right and that it was a massive victory.

I think you're overthinking this. Laws of war exist and there are reasons for them that are good on paper (though as @Uranus Pink noted, really, the biggest crime in war is losing) but even so, they're very abstract and have very little emotional impact inherent to them. You see a torture scene, and it feels wrong because you empathize to some degree with the victim, making it viscerally repulsive; you don't need to cite chapter and verse of some UN convention to get that feeling. We expect the good guys to be good, but we tend to rate that by how good their actions feel based on how we experience them in the moment, not how they uphold (or don't) some legislation we've never read.

Sure, but my point isn't "This feels morally wrong, cause the Geneva Convention says so", my point is "This feels morally wrong and the Geneva Convention also says that it is a severe crime."
When I watched the scene, I was genuinely mad, not only at the lame yo-momma-joke, but also at a supposedly good main character doing something that I felt was wrong.
Even though Hux goes into a longwided speech about not showing any mercy, the funny thing is: He does honor the diplomatic immunity that Poe claims for himself.

To the specific point, the paucity of storytelling in Disney Wars plays a part here. The Rebellion and the Empire (sorry, "Resistance" and "First Order") are the only two factions, and they're playing a zero-sum game. No tactic would be off-limits because nobody (in-universe or in the audience) seriously believes that they're going to negotiate in good faith, and there's apparently no other factions to worry about, so it's total war all the way down. If the game had more players, it could get political, but it doesn't.

Sure, but a bad deed stays a bad deed even in that context. As I said, Luke would have ben justified in striking down Vader and Palpatine in anger and it would have ended the war. But the movie showed him winning by virtue, not by power.

It is a fantasy story, so I expect the good guys to play by the good-guy-rules. I know that blowing up 5 densly populated planets vs. claiming to be a diplomat is very heavily slanted, it's a matter of principle to me.
Not a particularly important one, though.

I dislike Poe for being a constantly mugging chuckelfuck that sucks the gravitas out of every scene that he's in with bad jokes. It was worst in TFA, but even in TLJ I still don't really like him.

 

[Honka Honka Burning Love]

Geneva Convention also says that it is a severe crime."

And the Geneva Convention doesn't exist in Star Wars so it can go eat a dick in the context of Fiction.

 

[AverageAnimeWatcher]

Except the movie is about how all war [and Political oppression] in the Galaxy is not about a giant conflict between the Light and Dark Side of the force BUT is a conflict from the hyper rich [income inequality] and the Military industrial complex. So [Within the Narrative Logic the Round head gave us] all the Military action on screen is SUBVERSIVE because Space Wizards and noble resistance fighters [and space nazis] are all pawns of evil corporations.

Yeah, this was another idiotic creative choice by Ryan Johnson.

Ultimately the dark side vs light side was a metaphor. The choice between doing the easy path but giving yourself to your worst impulses and do, as simple as it sounds, evil, or do the harder but good path.

In the end, the real conflict was never in the space battles or corporations or in politics, but inside you. It was always internal. Which is why Darth Vader being corrupted was a big deal. Turning Anakin to the dark side doomed the galaxy: redeeming Darth Vader saved it

Will you choose the dark or the light?

Something similar happened with Lord of the rings. Those epic battles were important, yes, but ultimately it was, among other things, about resisting temptation.

So him focusing on corporations to score woke points is beyond stupid. This isn't Hunger games and their shady rich people. Star Wars, with Lucas, was always about the battle INSIDE you.


...Not to mention ignorant as banks were controlled by the empire anyway so they were in fact controlled by space nazis. So they were never the main issue anyway.

weapon sellers are at best an amoral neutral third party. Not the main villains.

 

[Lodoss Warrior]

On the one hand, I'd be eager to see how Lucas could salvage this final episode, if Doom's anonymous source proves accurate.

On the other hand, there's a real possibility that Lucas could salvage the reputation of Plan IX. Since I think this franchise should be put down like Old Yeller, this film's reception (not necessarily profit margins) could prolong this zombie series and vindicate Bob Iger et al.

 

[Ghostse]

Holdo was fucking retarded. Her "plan" sucked, and that was the real problem. You could have come up with a sequence of events that make more sense and still have your stupid fucking "TRUST WOMEN" horseshit, but have it actually be good.


For example:
#butwhatifitwasgood
They are evacuating Not-Yavin. A couple F.O. star destroyers arrive before they are complete, and begins attacking the fleeing transports. Escort fighters are tasked to deal with the FO TIE's; Poe wants to engage the few F.O. star destroyers, he's shut down, but the pilots are with Poe. Poe leads a bombing run; the FO star destroyers turn out to be more difficult to take down than expected, but they pull if off, taking out the FO star destroyers, losing a few fighters (including Page Tico's Y wing). While they're celebrating, then the rest of the FO fleet arrives, and the resistance fleet is just barely able to escape.

The Fleet comes out of hyperspace at their rendezvous. Almost immediately the FO arrives, resuming their attack on the Fleet. The Fleet has to get our of the range of the Imperial interdictors so they can jump away, one of the transports is having engine trouble. Poe wants to go provide X-wing cover, to force the FO interdiction ships to back off so it can jump, but then the FO Dreadnaught arrives and just one-shots it.

Poe realizes that the FO has a tracking device somewhere in the Fleet. He tells Frumpy and the Black Guy to take a ship to get a splicer who can disable it; he'll have the ship dump its trash before jump, and they can hide in the field until they figure out the best place to go - Poe doesn't know the jump destination, another thing that's pissing him off about Vice Admiral Tumblr.

After everyone jumps away, Rose recognizes the Canto system in the list of what's near by; she doesn't want to go there, but knows they can find what they want there. There, now Rose does something useful, you're welcome.

The ships in the fleet are having trouble keeping up with all these jumps, and many are starting to develop mechanical problems, and Poe is getting sick of running, he wants to turn and fight; at least go out swinging, many others feel the same way. Adm Tumblr tells him to calm his tits, she's got a plan, they just need to stick to it, the FO can't follow them forever.

They lose another ship in the next jump, barely able to evacuate it before the FO shows up. Adm Tumblr says she's going to split the fleet - transports and troop ships will jump to a different system than their warships. Poe says there's no way of knowing which ships - or how many ships - are being tracked by the FO. If there is a ship in the "soft target" fleet with a tracker on it, they'll be almost defenseless and sure to get destroyed by the FO. Tumblr says to trust her it will be fine, "You need to trust in the force", but its too much for Poe and he organizes a mutiny.

Holdo tries to get him to see reason, but he has her taken the brig, dismissing her with a "We're goign to win". Poe orders the navigation officer to start finding them systems that will give them maximum advantage against the FO. Poe decides to give rose and finn 3 more jumps to find a splicer.

Meanwhile Leia comes out of her space coma, sensing Holdo needed her. She confronts Poe as he's about to order the fleet into a costly space battle - Finn and Rose are barely able to report about being betrayed and Rey being with the FO fleet. Leia puts an end to the mutiny, puts Holdo back in charge.

Holdo needs Poe, and says she's going to hold off bring him up on charges until after the crisis is over. Holdo finally reveals the plan: the plan was always to let the FO track the ships. Leia and Holdo planned a sector-wide rope-a-dope to overwork the FO hyperdrives, and then jump to Not-Hoth where the Resistance had a weapon on the surface capable of taking out the Dreadnaught. They needed the Rope-a-dope so the Dreadnaught can't just jump away, it'd have to wait for the hyper-drive to cool down (since its such a massive ship, jumping puts strain on the hyperdrive). Holdo knew the Raddus was bugged, had this all planned, but she had to play her cards close to her chest and like the only plan was running because of FO tapping of their comms & having a traitor in the fleet.

Disabling the tracker would have completely ruined the plan. Not listening and trusting his mom Holdo almost undid months of planning and would have rendered meaningless the sacrifice of several ships.

Then everyone shows up on Not-Hoth; Kylo Ren, now supreme leader, knew about the planned trap, and launches a strike on the ground weapon; he damages the power generators, its going to take several minutes to recharge the cannon. He'd also landed FO commandos on the planet earlier, and they attack the base.

You have the Rebel Resistance Fleet fighting desperately against the FO (a fight made harder because all the 'soft' ships are there, since Poe stopped Holdo from sending them away) in space, while on the ground they are fighting to keep FO special forces from blowing up the ground weapon.

Rey and Kylo have a second show down fighting for control over the generator, and Luke intervenes, buying the Resistance enough time to get the weapon online, and destroy the dreadnaught, but firing the final shot makes the ground weapon explode - but it doesn't matter, with the Dreadnaught destoryed, The FO panics and their star destroyers flee. Leia orders rescue craft launched to pick up survivors from the dreadnaught; They don't have the ability to deal with so many prisoners, so they'll leave them in the base they are re-abandoning because "We need to be better than them".


There. A real, actual plan that DOES rely on Holdo not telling Poe shit.

 

[verissimus]

Robothead delivering another masterpiece.

The Truth About The Empire Strikes Back - A History Lesson

The true story behind The Empire Strikes Back and it’s reception at the time of release. Was it loved or hated? Many people including Rian Johnson have start...

www.youtube.com

 

[ZMOT]

And the Geneva Convention doesn't exist in Star Wars so it can go eat a dick in the context of Fiction.

but we can assume something similar exists because we know how people work, even in a galaxy far far away. sure, you can always argue war is war and who's gonna care, star wars the hague? and sure, the emperor was quivering with fear getting sanctioned, but the point still stands. you don't go around genociding whole planets because if you do there's a good chance the same happens to you. even on a galaxy scale, if you fight against the population you gonna lose (and given it's age you can assume sheev was aware of that).
so even if we don't know the actual paragraph there's still logic.

however, the worst part about shit like this is that it was never an issue before. star wars was a "simple" story about bad guys doing bad things, the good guys doing good things and triumphing at the end. you don't have to go balls deep into politics, law and philosophy to give it depth (the OT left it out almost completely), this isn't fucking star trek.
what's next, the mandalorian having a star wars mengele episode so we discuss the merits of inhuman experiments? "but they're aliens anyway, lolz!" fuck that shit.

 

[Kane Lives]

Holdo was fucking exceptional. Her "plan" sucked, and that was the real problem. You could have come up with a sequence of events that make more sense and still have your stupid fucking "TRUST WOMEN" horseshit, but have it actually be good.


For example:
#butwhatifitwasgood
They are evacuating Not-Yavin. A couple F.O. star destroyers arrive before they are complete, and begins attacking the fleeing transports. Escort fighters are tasked to deal with the FO TIE's; Poe wants to engage the few F.O. star destroyers, he's shut down, but the pilots are with Poe. Poe leads a bombing run; the FO star destroyers turn out to be more difficult to take down than expected, but they pull if off, taking out the FO star destroyers, losing a few fighters (including Page Tico's Y wing). While they're celebrating, then the rest of the FO fleet arrives, and the resistance fleet is just barely able to escape.

The Fleet comes out of hyperspace at their rendezvous. Almost immediately the FO arrives, resuming their attack on the Fleet. The Fleet has to get our of the range of the Imperial interdictors so they can jump away, one of the transports is having engine trouble. Poe wants to go provide X-wing cover, to force the FO interdiction ships to back off so it can jump, but then the FO Dreadnaught arrives and just one-shots it.

Poe realizes that the FO has a tracking device somewhere in the Fleet. He tells Frumpy and the Black Guy to take a ship to get a splicer who can disable it; he'll have the ship dump its trash before jump, and they can hide in the field until they figure out the best place to go - Poe doesn't know the jump destination, another thing that's pissing him off about Vice Admiral Tumblr.

After everyone jumps away, Rose recognizes the Canto system in the list of what's near by; she doesn't want to go there, but knows they can find what they want there. There, now Rose does something useful, you're welcome.

The ships in the fleet are having trouble keeping up with all these jumps, and many are starting to develop mechanical problems, and Poe is getting sick of running, he wants to turn and fight; at least go out swinging, many others feel the same way. Adm Tumblr tells him to calm his tits, she's got a plan, they just need to stick to it, the FO can't follow them forever.

They lose another ship in the next jump, barely able to evacuate it before the FO shows up. Adm Tumblr says she's going to split the fleet - transports and troop ships will jump to a different system than their warships. Poe says there's no way of knowing which ships - or how many ships - are being tracked by the FO. If there is a ship in the "soft target" fleet with a tracker on it, they'll be almost defenseless and sure to get destroyed by the FO. Tumblr says to trust her it will be fine, "You need to trust in the force", but its too much for Poe and he organizes a mutiny.

Holdo tries to get him to see reason, but he has her taken the brig, dismissing her with a "We're goign to win". Poe orders the navigation officer to start finding them systems that will give them maximum advantage against the FO. Poe decides to give rose and finn 3 more jumps to find a splicer.

Meanwhile Leia comes out of her space coma, sensing Holdo needed her. She confronts Poe as he's about to order the fleet into a costly space battle - Finn and Rose are barely able to tell. Leia puts an end to the mutiny, puts Holdo back in charge.

Holdo needs Poe, and says she's going to hold off bring him up on charges until after the crisis is over. Holdo finally reveals the plan: the plan was always to let the FO track the ships. Leia and Holdo planned a sector-wide rope-a-dope to overwork the FO hyperdrives, and then jump to Not-Hoth where the Resistance had a weapon on the surface capable of taking out the Dreadnaught. Holdo knew which ship was bugged, had this all planned, but she had to play her cards close to her chest and like the only plan was running because of FO tapping of their comms.

Disabling the tracker would have completely ruined the plan. Not listening and trusting his mom Holdo almost undid months of planning and would have rendered meaningless the sacrifice of several ships.

Then everyone shows up on Not-Hoth; Kylo Ren, now supreme leader, knew about the planned trap, and launches a strike on the ground weapon; he damages the power generators, its going to take several minutes to recharge the cannon. He'd also landed FO commandos on the planet earlier, and they attack the base.

You have the Rebel Resistance Fleet fighting desperately against the FO (a fight made harder because all the 'soft' ships are there, since Poe stopped Holdo from sending them away) in space, while on the ground they are fighting to keep FO special forces from blowing up the ground weapon.

Rey and Kylo have a second show down fighting for control over the generator, and Luke intervenes, buying the Resistance enough time to get the weapon online, and destroy the dreadnaught, but firing the final shot makes the ground weapon explode - but it doesn't matter, with the Dreadnaught destoryed, The FO panics and their star destroyers flee. Leia orders rescue craft launched to pick up survivors from the dreadnaught; They don't have the ability to deal with so many prisoners, so they'll leave them in the base they are re-abandoning because "We need to be better than them".


There. A real, actual plan that DOES rely on Holdo not telling Poe shit.

#whatifitwasgood indeed.

Also a striking similarity to the BSG episode of 33, which is always a good point. (Now that's how you portray a fleet running plausibly.)

 

[Gar For Archer]

SJWs have a habit of making media that very narrowly focuses on their agenda and goes out of its way to insult and belittle you if you do not enjoy that very specific agenda. But I doubt that most people, even amongst the SJW crowd unironically enjoy that agenda. I think they just know they are expected to love it or they just get off on the misery that agenda causes other people (for instance fans of the original Ghostbusters, who are unhappy with the low-brow humor and shitty acting).

We live in weird times where media outright insults you for being invested in it . . .


The point is that there is no such line of dialogue that the people on Canto Bight are perpetuating the war. That is nothing that is said or stated within the movie. That is what YOU interpret into the movie. It is possible that Ruin said it afterwards, but there is nothing in the movie to this end.
The movie shows profiteers. Nothing more.


I would disagree. Sure, the movies use soft-sci-fi rules inspired by WW2 dogfighting but other than that, strategy wise, the old movies are very sound.
They follow a setup of rules. TLJ does not.

I guess we could agree to this:
The movie treats Poe's decision as a mistaken in tone and character-interaction, but according to what is actually happening (ie: a big fucking ship with insane strategic value to the FO is destroyed), the movie shows that he was right and that it was a massive victory.


Sure, but my point isn't "This feels morally wrong, cause the Geneva Convention says so", my point is "This feels morally wrong and the Geneva Convention also says that it is a severe crime."
When I watched the scene, I was genuinely mad, not only at the lame yo-momma-joke, but also at a supposedly good main character doing something that I felt was wrong.
Even though Hux goes into a longwided speech about not showing any mercy, the funny thing is: He does honor the diplomatic immunity that Poe claims for himself.


Sure, but a bad deed stays a bad deed even in that context. As I said, Luke would have ben justified in striking down Vader and Palpatine in anger and it would have ended the war. But the movie showed him winning by virtue, not by power.

It is a fantasy story, so I expect the good guys to play by the good-guy-rules. I know that blowing up 5 densly populated planets vs. claiming to be a diplomat is very heavily slanted, it's a matter of principle to me.
Not a particularly important one, though.

I dislike Poe for being a constantly mugging chuckelfuck that sucks the gravitas out of every scene that he's in with bad jokes. It was worst in TFA, but even in TLJ I still don't really like him.

The “SJW Agenda” is, quite literally, a modern interpretation of The Emperor’s New Clothes.

The emperor represents media investors and shareholders - at the end of the day they don’t REALLY care about the agenda, they just want the profit.

The trickster weavers are represented by the true believers in big media, who are trying to sell this false idea to investors that woke content is what consumers want, and that the Twitter mob is representative of their general audience.

The king’s sycophants are represented by the Twitter mob itself, and anyone who even minorly sips the woke kool-aid - afraid to voice the truth for fear of being labeled an -ist, parroting praise for shit they don’t actually care about because not doing so would indicate a lack of purity of belief.

And, of course, the child at the end who says what everyone has been thinking - “He’s not wearing clothes at all!” - is represented by the average moviegoer, who’s sick of this shit and has started using their wallet to tell woke media to go fuck itself.

 

[Manwithn0n0men]

The Truth About The Empire Strikes Back - A History Lesson

The true story behind The Empire Strikes Back and it’s reception at the time of release. Was it loved or hated? Many people including Rian Johnson have start...

www.youtube.com

 

[Syaoran Li]

I don't think so; I think it's going to go down as a period of extremes. You have Wokebusters... but you also have Joker. You have Game of Thrones violently shitting itself to death accompanied by sad trombone music... but you also have Chernobyl. There is good stuff out there, but the dross is so much shittier than previous simply because it's been endlessly recycled, Human Centipede style, to the point where it will taint previously good things if you let it.

I think both you and @Dom Cruise are right in different ways.

I'd say the late 2010's probably is the lowest point of pop culture in living memory for most people, which is part of why the quality works of this era such as Joker and Chernobyl tend to really stand out above and beyond. Blade Runner 2049 was a box office failure, but was a great movie that earned its cult following.

Hell, even Detective Pikachu could end up as one of the better films from the late 2010's. It didn't really have any SJW baggage and was a good popcorn comedy flick, and it's also probably the first live-action video game movie to truly succeed at both box office sales and audience reception. The fact that it was a video game movie that "broke the curse" is notable in and of itself, but overall I'd say the best movie of the current era is probably Joker.

Honestly, I'd say the massive success of Joker will be a major turning point for the direction of pop culture in the 2020's, especially if Rise of Skywalker turns out to be a massive flop.

My best guess is that Rise of Skywalker will be to The Last Jedi what Attack of the Clones was to Phantom Menace.

Episode II was the worst of the prequels and was probably the worst Star Wars movie before the Disney films, but in retrospect, it doesn't get as much hate as Episode I did because The Phantom Menace torpedoed all the good buzz and hype surrounding the prequels.

The Force Awakens sucks too, but it wasn't as much of a "franchise killer" as The Last Jedi was. Episode VII was a bland derivative retread, but it wasn't quite as full-on "woke" as Last Jedi and was able to skate by on people looking forward to a revived Star Wars after the prequels had faded from memory.

If George Lucas of all people somehow manages to save Episode IX at the last minute, that would be the ultimate form of ironic karmic justice.

 

[RomanesEuntDomus]

And the Geneva Convention doesn't exist in Star Wars so it can go eat a dick in the context of Fiction.

Already covered it, mate:

And it goes without saying, the Geneva Convention doesn't apply to the galaxy far, far away.

But here's the thing:
In the old movies, Luke discards his light sabre instead of striking down Palpatine or his father. It is a clear victory of virtue over evil. The protagonists should be heroic and do "the right thing", even in the face of literally unrelenting evil.
On the other hand, "the right thing" is based on our morals and ethics. Sure, you could say they have different morals in Star Wars, but pragmatically speaking, since it is a story, it is inevitably going to be based on our understanding of what is right and wrong.

And here's the deal: Sending a detachement that pretends to be on a diplomatic mission, claims diplomatic immunity to negotiate with someone, just so that detachment can then use that diplomatic immunity as a cloaking mechanism and surprise attack the enemy is one of the worst things that anyone can do in a war. It is pretty much only outclassed by a holocaust-style genocide. This has to be something that is true for all halfway civilized people, since the ability to have negotiations, to have diplomatic immunity, is absolutely necessary. It is in no one's interest to abuse this basic rule, since it takes away your ability to ever negotiate again with anyone.
If you're the guy that will pretend to talk things through before suckerpunching your enemy, no one will ever stop pounding your face into the dirt, no matter how often you beg for mercy. And they'd be justified in doing so. That's why pretending to be on a diplomatic mission is inevitably a dick move by Poe.

Again: The argument that the Resistance does not have to play by the rules since the First Order does not play by the rules either does make sense... but the Resistance are the good guys, they have to embody certain virtues and values to be the good guys and pretending to have a desire for negotiations is not a trivial matter.

tl;dr version:
Star Wars is a story based on -our- moral principles. Pretending to be on a diplomatic mission to prepare a surprise attack is amoral. It is dishonorable, evil and it can and will backfire in the long run if you get the reputation of pretending to enter peaceful talks, just so you can slaughter the other side. Also, even though there is no Geneva Convention in Star Wars, there still have to be similar rules, since these emerge not out of some politician's whims but rather out of a diplomatic necessity.
Similar rules predate the Geneva Convention by centuries, if not millenia, in the past it relied on an honor system, which shows us how fundamental they are.

Therefore, Poe's actions are a dick move.

There. A real, actual plan that DOES rely on Holdo not telling Poe shit.

I think it has the same issue as TLJ though:
Why doesn't Holdo just tell Poe? Under 4 eyes, nothing prevents her from sharing that plan. And if Poe stood by her side, going "Trust Holdo", that would put many soldiers at ease.

 

[Ghostse]

#whatifitwasgood indeed.

Also a striking similarity to the BSG episode of 33, which is always a good point. (Now that's how you portray a fleet running plausibly.)

Yup, I just off-the-cuffed that in about 20 minutes so I liberally shamelessly ripped off, nearly whole cloth homaged a lot of stuff for the high points.

It definitely needs polish, probably a Resistance traitor to get outed (only issue is by necessity the traitor would be a "literal who"); have that be the tension between Rose and Finn, Rose figures the tracker must have been planned, and who better to pull it off than their "defector" because no one defects from the FO.
It could also be a set up for Plan 9, where you find out in 9 that Leia/Holdo got the information about the FO's tracking plan from an informant who turns out to be Hux; Hux leaked the plan to keep Kylo from getting to play the hero. Maybe have a major subplot in 9 being the resolution of the identity of the respective traitors.

Hell, if you still want to kill off Holdo (please) give her a Hero's moment where she doesn't think they be able to stop Kylo Ren from destroying the ground weapon - hell, have Holdo, who's been calm and assured about the plan the whole movie nearly soil her drawers when she learns Kylo is on the surface leading the attack. Make him a credible threat - so orders the fleet to try to break through the FO Line, escape, and scatter. She knew it was the Raddus with the tracking device on it the whole time, so plans set the autopilot to ram the Dreadnaught. The ship gets damaged, no auto-pilot, so Holdo gives Poe an order he "Damn well better follow this time"; Poe, who's been a Force Atheitist the whole movie gives her a "may the force be with you", and she hauls herself into the admiral's chair and kamikazes the Raddus into the dreadnaught, in a scene with actual emotional weight.


But I suppose that's my point on my spergy #whatifitwasgood posting.
I'm just a bigotted incel nerd rapist KKK grand dragon who hates women, the poor, and minorities and is on the wrong side of history because I don't like nu-wars and refuse to give a billion-dollar multinational money. I'm not a professional writer, and I could shit out a frame work that still delivers all most of their woke points (The Rose/Finn shit at the end is so fucking retarded, I can't understand how no one stopped it) but it has actual tension and plot, and I did in under an hour.

Also
BSG I thought did chain of command extremely well. Not perfect, because if you did perfect CoC its going to be really fucking boring. But they showed that there were rules, so when someone broke them it was impactful.

The “SJW Agenda” is, quite literally, a modern interpretation of The Emperor’s New Clothes.

The emperor represents media investors and shareholders - at the end of the day they don’t REALLY care about the agenda, they just want the profit.

The trickster weavers are represented by the true believers in big media, who are trying to sell this false idea to investors that woke content is what consumers want, and that the Twitter mob is representative of their general audience.

The king’s sycophants are represented by the Twitter mob itself, and anyone who even minorly sips the woke kool-aid - afraid to voice the truth for fear of being labeled an -ist, parroting praise for shit they don’t actually care about because not doing so would indicate a lack of purity of belief.

And, of course, the child at the end who says what everyone has been thinking - “He’s not wearing clothes at all!” - is represented by the average moviegoer, who’s sick of this shit and has started using their wallet to tell woke media to go fuck itself.

I think you're a little off, in so much as the tricksters here are generally actual true believers, they believe they are selling the best most beautiful cloth that is fair-trade, organic and zero emissions. They themselves have been tricked into believing the product they'e pushing by a combination of thier own doublethink, human nature, and people with separate goals.

 

[Krokodil Overdose]

Sure, but my point isn't "This feels morally wrong, cause the Geneva Convention says so", my point is "This feels morally wrong and the Geneva Convention also says that it is a severe crime."
When I watched the scene, I was genuinely mad, not only at the lame yo-momma-joke, but also at a supposedly good main character doing something that I felt was wrong.

Fair enough; I didn't have the same reaction, but I suppose that's just some form of values dissonance between us. The cloned mamluks from the prequels really rubbed me the wrong way, for example, but that didn't seem to be a common reaction.

Star Wars is a story based on -our- moral principles. Pretending to be on a diplomatic mission to prepare a surprise attack is amoral. It is dishonorable, evil and it can and will backfire in the long run if you get the reputation of pretending to enter peaceful talks, just so you can slaughter the other side. Also, even though there is no Geneva Convention in Star Wars, there still have to be similar rules, since these emerge not out of some politician's whims but rather out of a diplomatic necessity.
Similar rules predate the Geneva Convention by centuries, if not millenia, in the past it relied on an honor system, which shows us how fundamental they are.

The modern version of diplomatic immunity is commonly attributed to Genghis Khan, who responded to the murder of his ambassadors with the Mongols' signature "mountains of skulls" deal. You're right in that faking a diplomatic envoy is a dick move, but the Empire and Rebellion are already in a state of total war; it's only because these movies require their antagonists to be utterly retarded that Hux doesn't just cut Poe off with a turbolaser salvo. Risking an enemy being galvanized to your total destruction isn't a big deal when that's what they're already in the process of trying.

 

[Ghostse]

I think it has the same issue as TLJ though:
Why doesn't Holdo just tell Poe? Under 4 eyes, nothing prevents her from sharing that plan. And if Poe stood by her side, going "Trust Holdo", that would put many soldiers at ease.

There's a traitor in the Resistance, which is how the tracker got there; Holdo couldn't be sure it wasn't Poe. Or even if she was sure it wasn't Poe, Poe has shown himself to be reckless and disregarding orders, he might unintentionally let knowledge of the plan slip. If the traitor tells the FO Holdo's wise to their tracker but isn't doing anything about it, FO might suspect a trap, call off the pursuit, and the whole plan to take out the Dreadnaught fails.
And (sticking with Rian's retarded framing about TRUST WYMYN) she shouldn't have HAD to tell Poe, he should have followed orders. The minute it looks like she IS going to have to tell him about the plan (when there's a blaster in her face and he's mutinying) Poe isn't listening anymore. Its not to show Holdo as perfect, she can have a minute of self reflection about needing to trust her people more, but the Asshole is clearly Poe.

Its clumsy, but I was trying to change the bare minimum about that abomination as I could to show that the effort to make a film that isn't a complete fucking mess was minimal, but Ruin didn't bother putting that in.