Star Trek - Space: The Final Frontier

[Travoltron]

If you don't want to watch heavy handed takes on contemporary political issues, then don't bother watching Star Trek.

Its problem is that it wasn't contemporary anymore after 9/11. And then they went full on George W. Bush, which probably seemed like the right thing to do at the time, but popular opinion on that war changed very quickly when no WMDs were found.

I hate Star Trek Enterprise (remember how they were too embarrassed to have "Star Trek" in the title the first season or two?), but I actually do cut the writers some slack here as it was a very scary and confusing time to live in let alone to write for.
That final season of Enterprise was actually not that bad from what I've seen of it, but by that point the damage was already done and nobody was watching the show.

I watched the first episode of Discovery that aired for free on TV. It's probably the worst episode of Trek that I've ever seen. Star Trek only works when it has strong, charismatic characters. The Discovery characters are repellent and I want to punch them all in the face.

 

[UnKillFill]

I watched the first episode of Discovery that aired for free on TV. It's probably the worst episode of Trek that I've ever seen. Star Trek only works when it has strong, charismatic characters. The Discovery characters are repellent and I want to punch them all in the face.

I'll do you one better, the characters on STD are so repellant that I want to punch the ^actors* in the face. For contrast, Janeway is frequently written as a morally reprehensible character, and when she isn't, shes still usually poorly written... but I'm still able to seperate Janeway from Mulgrew.

 

[Flexo]

but popular opinion on that war changed very quickly when no WMDs were found

You know they actually were?

The Secret Casualties of Iraq’s Abandoned Chemical Weapons

The Pentagon kept silent as munitions left over from Saddam Hussein’s war with Iran found new targets from 2004 to 2011: American and Iraqi troops.

www.nytimes.com

From 2004 to 2011, American and American-trained Iraqi troops repeatedly encountered, and on at least six occasions were wounded by, chemical weapons remaining from years earlier in Saddam Hussein’s rule.​

​

In all, American troops secretly reported finding roughly 5,000 chemical warheads, shells or aviation bombs, according to interviews with dozens of participants, Iraqi and American officials, and heavily redacted intelligence documents obtained under the Freedom of Information Act.​

 

[Krokodil Overdose]

You know they actually were?

The Secret Casualties of Iraq’s Abandoned Chemical Weapons

The Pentagon kept silent as munitions left over from Saddam Hussein’s war with Iran found new targets from 2004 to 2011: American and Iraqi troops.

www.nytimes.com

From 2004 to 2011, American and American-trained Iraqi troops repeatedly encountered, and on at least six occasions were wounded by, chemical weapons remaining from years earlier in Saddam Hussein’s rule.​

​

In all, American troops secretly reported finding roughly 5,000 chemical warheads, shells or aviation bombs, according to interviews with dozens of participants, Iraqi and American officials, and heavily redacted intelligence documents obtained under the Freedom of Information Act.​

There's a lot of things we know that ain't so.

The Kitty Genovese story is almost pure fiction: https://archive.is/Z0mgF
Matthew Shepard was killed over drugs: https://archive.is/7x9Un

It's worth remembering that the media has a collective interest in never correcting or being held to account for their inaccuracies, whether mistakes or lies: their entire profession requires a significant degree of public credulity, and admitting fault erodes that.

I'll do you one better, the characters on STD are so repellant that I want to punch the ^actors* in the face. For contrast, Janeway is frequently written as a morally reprehensible character, and when she isn't, shes still usually poorly written... but I'm still able to seperate Janeway from Mulgrew.

I'll second that. Mulgrew is a fantastic actress, and while she wasn't always able to make that silk purse from the sow's ear of the script, she had a presence and impact that the teenyboppers on STD couldn't grasp in their wildest dreams. I think being older (again, like an actual officer would be) played a big part, combined with questionable morality in the name of getting shit done.

 

[Flexo]

There's a lot of things we know that ain't so.

The Kitty Genovese story is almost pure fiction: https://archive.li/Z0mgF
Matthew Shepard was killed over drugs: https://archive.li/7x9Un

It's worth remembering that the media has a collective interest in never correcting or being held to account for their inaccuracies, whether mistakes or lies: their entire profession requires a significant degree of public credulity, and admitting fault erodes that.

Oh if you REALLY want to go down the rabbit hole?

Who Will Debunk The Debunkers?

In 2012, network scientist and data theorist Samuel Arbesman published a disturbing thesis: What we think of as established knowledge decays over time. Accordin…

fivethirtyeight.com

I'll second that. Mulgrew is a fantastic actress, and while she wasn't always able to make that silk purse from the sow's ear of the script, she had a presence and impact that the teenyboppers on STD couldn't grasp in their wildest dreams. I think being older (again, like an actual officer would be) played a big part, combined with questionable morality in the name of getting shit done.

Janeway is best villain, ship with Q.

Mulgrew does evil good.

 

[Miller]

It's problem is that it wasn't contemporary anymore after 9/11. And then they went full on George W. Bush, which probably seemed like the right thing to do at the time, but popular opinion on that war changed very quickly when no WMDs were found.

I'm actually fine with that. I know people don't like Enterprise and Archer's behavior but to me it was understandable, ENT was taking place years before the Federation, space was like the far west for Starfleet, everything was new to them, they had to create their own rules, learn from their mistakes. Once the Xindi story arc ended, you could see how much it affected Archer and it's also acknowledged in the show. There's an episode in the 4th season ("Home") where we find out that he got PTSD from those events.

 

[UnKillFill]

Janeway is best villain, ship with Q.

Mulgrew does evil good.

The real reason Voyager never got a mirror universe episode is that it would be too hard to make mirror Janeway more evil than regular Janeway.

 

[BR55]

Western entertainment as a whole shouldn't aspire to be a Joss Whedon snarkfest.

FTFY.
Fuck Joe Sweden and his unbelievably lazy and meaningless writing style.
Oh and fuck everyone else for mindlessly aping his style as well.

 

[Flexo]

The real reason Voyager never got a mirror universe episode is that it would be too hard to make mirror Janeway more evil than regular Janeway.

SFDebris had a great bit with the captain's council in the mirror universe. In that world, Janeway - complete with badly photoshopped goatee - was a granola loving hippie.

"I think we should send a strongly worded letter..."

EDIT: Ah yes, it was this video. In case it ever returns...

Star Trek (Ent): In A Mirror, Darkly Part 1

Star Trek Reviews

sfdebris.com

 

[AnOminous]

You know they actually were?

The Secret Casualties of Iraq’s Abandoned Chemical Weapons

The Pentagon kept silent as munitions left over from Saddam Hussein’s war with Iran found new targets from 2004 to 2011: American and Iraqi troops.

www.nytimes.com

From 2004 to 2011, American and American-trained Iraqi troops repeatedly encountered, and on at least six occasions were wounded by, chemical weapons remaining from years earlier in Saddam Hussein’s rule.​

​

In all, American troops secretly reported finding roughly 5,000 chemical warheads, shells or aviation bombs, according to interviews with dozens of participants, Iraqi and American officials, and heavily redacted intelligence documents obtained under the Freedom of Information Act.​

There was no fucking "smoking gun in the form of a mushroom cloud" and they knew it. They were not talking about old chemical weapons that we'd originally sold them in the first place to use on the Iranians and Kurds.

 

[Flexo]

There was no fucking "smoking gun in the form of a mushroom cloud" and they knew it. They were not talking about old chemical weapons that we'd originally sold them in the first place to use on the Iranians and Kurds.

Really?

Bush speech to UN.

President's Remarks at the United Nations General Assembly

President Bush Thursday said, "We will work with the U.N. Security Council for the necessary resolutions. But the purposes of the United States should not be doubted. The Security Council resolutions will be enforced -- the just demands of peace and security will be met -- or action will be...

georgewbush-whitehouse.archives.gov

United Nations' inspections also revealed that Iraq likely maintains stockpiles of VX, mustard and other chemical agents, and that the regime is rebuilding and expanding facilities capable of producing chemical weapons.​

Bush ultimatum speech.

Full text: Bush's speech

A transcript of George Bush's war ultimatum speech from the Cross Hall in the White House.

www.theguardian.com

The danger is clear: using chemical, biological or, one day, nuclear weapons, obtained with the help of Iraq, the terrorists could fulfill their stated ambitions and kill thousands or hundreds of thousands of innocent people in our country, or any other.​

From the congressional authorization.

Text - H.J.Res.114 - 107th Congress (2001-2002): Authorization for Use of Military Force Against Iraq Resolution of 2002

Text for H.J.Res.114 - 107th Congress (2001-2002): Authorization for Use of Military Force Against Iraq Resolution of 2002

www.congress.gov

Whereas the efforts of international weapons inspectors, United States​

intelligence agencies, and Iraqi defectors led to the discovery that​

Iraq had large stockpiles of chemical weapons and a large scale​

biological weapons program...​

For "not talking about old chemical weapons" they sure talked about it a lot.

 

[Honka Honka Burning Love]

but even picard pulled out the knives if he had to),

And he was the last person you wanted to have the Knives, because when he pulled them out he was gonna make you real dead real fast.

 

[UnKillFill]

SFDebris had a great bit with the captain's council in the mirror universe. In that world, Janeway - complete with badly photoshopped goatee - was a granola loving hippie.

"I think we should send a strongly worded letter..."

EDIT: Ah yes, it was this video. In case it ever returns...

Star Trek (Ent): In A Mirror, Darkly Part 1

Star Trek Reviews

sfdebris.com

It's a funny bit, and I love SFDebris, but let's be honest... the writers of Voyager didn't *intentionally* write regular Janeway as "evil" (although she totally was, far more often than she should have been). If they had tried to make an actual mirror Voyager episode, they would not have even recognized evil Janeway as a thing, let alone making mirror Janeway "good". (Though it is a funny idea, and it does totally make sense.)

 

[AnOminous]

It's a funny bit, and I love SFDebris, but let's be honest... the writers of Voyager didn't *intentionally* write regular Janeway as "evil" (although she totally was, far more often than she should have been). If they had tried to make an actual mirror Voyager episode, they would not have even recognized evil Janeway as a thing, let alone making mirror Janeway "good". (Though it is a funny idea, and it does totally make sense.)

Why did they make their progressive stronk woman captain so evil anyway? Kirk was somewhat morally compromised, sometimes a dick, and often a cad, but he wasn't evil. Picard was as paladin as you can get. But Janeway had to be evil.

 

[UnKillFill]

Why did they make their progressive stronk woman captain so evil anyway? Kirk was somewhat morally compromised, sometimes a dick, and often a cad, but he wasn't evil. Picard was as paladin as you can get. But Janeway had to be evil.

To be fair, Sisko (my favorite Trek captain, and singer of the thong song) had his share or morally ambiguous moments...

"In the Pale Moonlight" held a few of them, but there were others....

 

[RomanesEuntDomus]

Why did they make their progressive stronk woman captain so evil anyway? Kirk was somewhat morally compromised, sometimes a dick, and often a cad, but he wasn't evil. Picard was as paladin as you can get. But Janeway had to be evil.

I think it was the proto-STRANK-WAHMAN-archetype that we know and loathe today.

They wanted to write Janeway as strong willed and someone who gets shit done and accidentally wrote her to be a completely off-the-rocker loony, that would flip flop between her views on how to honor the Prime Directive from one episode to the other.

 

[Miller]

let's be honest... the writers of Voyager didn't *intentionally* write regular Janeway as "evil"

She was Jeri Taylor's self-insert.

 

[Flexo]

Why did they make their progressive stronk woman captain so evil anyway? Kirk was somewhat morally compromised, sometimes a dick, and often a cad, but he wasn't evil. Picard was as paladin as you can get. But Janeway had to be evil.

To quote Sarah Hoyt.

"You know how some novels are awful, because the main characters are stupid assholes, but get away with it because of course they do, because after all, the author is on their side?"

We may call Burnham a Mary Sue, but Janeway got there first as Jeri Taylor was just so in love with her.

 

[GeorgeDaMoose]

now compare it to when TNG gets good and you might notice something...

TNG had its moments in earlier seasons. I'd very much argue Season 1 of TNG never had the lows of 1 or 2 of Enterprise while Season 2 of TNG was near insufferable for me with higher highs. TNG also gave me more reason to personally connect to some of the characters like Data early on compared to ENT.

 

[RomanesEuntDomus]

To quote Sarah Hoyt.

"You know how some novels are awful, because the main characters are stupid assholes, but get away with it because of course they do, because after all, the author is on their side?"

We may call Burnham a Mary Sue, but Janeway got there first as Jeri Taylor was just so in love with her.

But I personally find Janeway a lot more presentable than Burnham. Janeway sucks for being inconsistent and poorly written, but "Teaches vulcans how to be vulcan" Burnham is just insufferable to me.

Also doesn't hurt that Kate Mulgrew is a better actress.