Should lolicon / shotacon be considered drawn child pornography?

Is OP a pedophile?

  • yes

    Votes: 967 74.3%
  • no

    Votes: 210 16.1%
  • it should be regulated, not outright banned

    Votes: 124 9.5%

  • Total voters
    1,301
I recall hearing an interesting point about why pedophiles are attracted to children. The argument states that just before the onset of puberty, attraction to children of the same age can and does occur. These attractions are normal until puberty occurs, at which point the child undergoing puberty starts to become more attracted to physically mature features.

The point is, pedophiles who claim it is "natural" to be attracted to pre-pubescent features are half-right and wholly-wrong. People who never grow past that attraction are developmentally or emotionally stunted, likely outcast weirdos who never fit in. It's pretty obvious why lolicons are lolicons.

Not particularly revolutionary, just a point I rarely see expressed in these discussions. I wouldn't want a world devoid of what is healthy, and I believe we have an overly repressive attitude in some ways to sexuality and nudity and overly promiscuous in others. Loli porn is out the window imo.
 
I've always leaned hard toward the "drawings/art should not be censored" side but nowadays with the advancement of CGI and how fucking convincing deepfakes can be I'm not as sure. I still believe in free speech and expression but frankly the thought of hyper-realistic fake CP doesn't sit right. The laws governing what is considered CP and the levels of offense are going to have to be made very specific.

I guess it comes back to the argument of whether CP-type content keeps pedophiles' urges sated, or whether they continue to seek out worse and more graphic content until they eventually offend. I'm sure it's different depending on the person, the same way normal people can use vanilla porn occasionally with no issue vs the types who need increasingly deviant shit to get off and it becomes an actual problem.
 
Drawings and computer generated graphics are just that. Not actual children, You or me might find lolicon stuff gross, unappealing, etc, but it's not the same thing as actual children being abused, and banning drawings because they feature offensive content is far more dangerous then not doing so. Generally speaking, the government's monopoly on force should only be invoked when it is really and genuinely necessary to do so, and what are basically cartoons do not represent that kind of risk.
 
I recall hearing an interesting point about why pedophiles are attracted to children. The argument states that just before the onset of puberty, attraction to children of the same age can and does occur. These attractions are normal until puberty occurs, at which point the child undergoing puberty starts to become more attracted to physically mature features.

The point is, pedophiles who claim it is "natural" to be attracted to pre-pubescent features are half-right and wholly-wrong. People who never grow past that attraction are developmentally or emotionally stunted, likely outcast weirdos who never fit in. It's pretty obvious why lolicons are lolicons.

Not particularly revolutionary, just a point I rarely see expressed in these discussions. I wouldn't want a world devoid of what is healthy, and I believe we have an overly repressive attitude in some ways to sexuality and nudity and overly promiscuous in others. Loli porn is out the window imo.

Nobody really understands where the desire for pre-pubescent attraction stems from. With trauma we hypothesize that people have become paralyzed and trapped in the moment of their abuse for the rest of their lives, so much so they can only relate to children sexually. That their abuse scars them so deeply it changes them profoundly. Which is why we treat this so harshly.

As far as organic wise? Nobody knows. The evolutionary hypothesis falls flat because 10 year olds can't have children and some pedophiles are indiscriminate when it comes to gender, so sexual orientation is skewed as well. It could be stunted growth, but again, hard to say.

We don't really understand much about pedophiles. Basically alot of the research out there is how to catch them and stop them.

I've always leaned hard toward the "drawings/art should not be censored" side but nowadays with the advancement of CGI and how fucking convincing deepfakes can be I'm not as sure. I still believe in free speech and expression but frankly the thought of hyper-realistic fake CP doesn't sit right. The laws governing what is considered CP and the levels of offense are going to have to be made very specific.

I guess it comes back to the argument of whether CP-type content keeps pedophiles' urges sated, or whether they continue to seek out worse and more graphic content until they eventually offend. I'm sure it's different depending on the person, the same way normal people can use vanilla porn occasionally with no issue vs the types who need increasingly deviant shit to get off and it becomes an actual problem.

These images are already illegal. Drawings and computer generated imagery are fine but they become CP if they are indistinguishable from real children.

Deepfakes are child porn. People have been arrested for putting children's heads on pornstars bodies before. Like literally cutting out and pasting, the crudest method for making porn. So people will be going to jail if they attempted the same virtually.

That NVIDIA tech where they made fake faces with composites of real faces would be illegal if used to create fake child porn.

The thing is the law is already in place and separates out highly stylized drawings like loli and shota vs. Deep fakes and computer generated or virtual child porn. This law is there because LEOs shouldn't have to waste their time sifting though what is or isnt CP.

So not to worry, the law is there.

Drawings and computer generated graphics are just that. Not actual children, You or me might find lolicon stuff gross, unappealing, etc, but it's not the same thing as actual children being abused, and banning drawings because they feature offensive content is far more dangerous then not doing so. Generally speaking, the government's monopoly on force should only be invoked when it is really and genuinely necessary to do so, and what are basically cartoons do not represent that kind of risk.

Pretty much this. Not to mention prosecuting drawings takes away from prosecuting people who produce and sell this imagery and the abusers who trade it like trading cards.
 
Nobody really understands where the desire for pre-pubescent attraction stems from. With trauma we hypothesize that people have become paralyzed and trapped in the moment of their abuse for the rest of their lives, so much so they can only relate to children sexually. That their abuse scars them so deeply it changes them profoundly. Which is why we treat this so harshly.

As far as organic wise? Nobody knows. The evolutionary hypothesis falls flat because 10 year olds can't have children and some pedophiles are indiscriminate when it comes to gender, so sexual orientation is skewed as well. It could be stunted growth, but again, hard to say.

We don't really understand much about pedophiles. Basically alot of the research out there is how to catch them and stop them.

These images are already illegal. Drawings and computer generated imagery are fine but they become CP if they are indistinguishable from real children.

Deepfakes are child porn. People have been arrested for putting children's heads on pornstars bodies before. Like literally cutting out and pasting, the crudest method for making porn. So people will be going to jail if they attempted the same virtually.

That NVIDIA tech where they made fake faces with composites of real faces would be illegal if used to create fake child porn.

The thing is the law is already in place and separates out highly stylized drawings like loli and shota vs. Deep fakes and computer generated or virtual child porn. This law is there because LEOs shouldn't have to waste their time sifting though what is or isnt CP.

So not to worry, the law is there.

Pretty much this. Not to mention prosecuting drawings takes away from prosecuting people who produce and sell this imagery and the abusers who trade it like trading cards.

A very "neutral" way of looking at this, is seeing it as a difference:

Where does Autism come from?
How does a fertilized egg develop into lesbian or a homosexual over two decades? Like why are most people not gay, but some are?
Why are some people left handed?
Why do some people develop full-blown schizophrenia, where as others simply have schizoid personality disorder? And most are not affected?

Same with the origins of pedophilia.

I suppose is trendy right now to see these things as a spectrum. More like a series of symptoms and not a final diagnosis pointing to one sole origin.

Like there might be a town and many roads that take you there but nevertheless you end up in the town.
 
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We have laws covering photorealistic renderings of children and we have laws protecting real children from sexual exploitation via artistic representations. We do not need more laws banning cartoons or text.

We have a cartel selling children into sex in basically every large city in America and every small town in the south west. I could not possibly be compelled to care about this at all. I absolutely do not trust any sort of censorship committee to figure out how to differentiate between drawn pornography of an adult woman and a child (because face it all Japs look like children until they're 40). Anyone who clutches pearls are fags and the rationalization that there is some sort of lolicon -> child rapist gateway has absolutely zero evidence to back that up.

It's like all the pornography addicts on Gab pretending to be born-again Christians crusading against pornography now because they can't handle it and they have problems. Fuck off.

(This is a bit of a necro people were linking in chat to try and call Geth a pedophile because he wrote an essay on this.)
 
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A very "neutral" way of looking at this, is seeing it as a difference:

Where does Autism come from?
How does a fertilized egg develop into lesbian or a homosexual over two decades? Like why are most people not gay, but some are?
Why are some people left handed?
Why do some people develop full-blown schizophrenia, where as others simply have schizoid personality disorder? And most are not affected?

Same with the origins of pedophilia.

I suppose is trendy right now to see these things as a spectrum. More like a series of symptoms and not a final diagnosis pointing to one sole origin.

Like there might be a town and many roads that take you there but nevertheless you end up in the town.

Possibly, sure. The whole paraphilia angle is complicated, as is human sexuality.

We have laws covering photorealistic renderings of children and we have laws protecting real children from sexual exploitation via artistic representations. We do not need more laws banning cartoons or text.

We have a cartel selling children into sex in basically every large city in America and every small town in the south west. I could not possibly be compelled to care about this at all. I absolutely do not trust any sort of censorship committee to figure out how to differentiate between drawn pornography of an adult woman and a child (because face it all Japs look like children until they're 40). Anyone who clutches pearls are fags and the rationalization that there is some sort of lolicon -> child rapist gateway has absolutely zero evidence to back that up.

It's like all the pornography addicts on Gab pretending to be born-again Christians crusading against pornography now because they can't handle it and they have problems. Fuck off.

(This is a bit of a necro people were linking in chat to try and call Geth a pedophile because he wrote an essay on this.)

Indeed. People worry about deepfakes of kids not being child porn don't have to worry, those are child porn. Same with fakes, if you Photoshop pornstars and children, that's child porn. Even if its badly done, you WILL be arrested and prosecuted.

Exactly. There are also some pornstars and women that look like they're 12. I mean, people age very differently. There's also no evidence to back up lolicon is a gateway to child porn, because pedos will always offend and I've already relayed horrible stories of them having fantasies by looking at actual children and misinterpreting play behavior.

For the record, I've had to clarify multiple times on how I know so much about this is because I did a bachelor's thesis on my degree in forensic psych for it. I've been called a pedo for defending this but IDGAF. I've looked at the real monsters out there, and loli is NOTHING compared to what pedophiles are. I wish all we had in the world was the most degenerate drawings and text and no actual exploitation of children.

People have wanted to read my thesis, but I realized my fucking university has all of these publicly available so if I post it, I basically dox myself.
 
People who worry about drawn images, to any degree, are doing a disservice to real children and the problems real child porn cause.
Child porn being illegal was never about it being gross, it was always to do with the fact the very act of producing child porn is child abuse, and consuming it only further incentivizes people to create it. None of this can apply to the drawn stuff, people are capable of drawing any sorts of insane shit regarding kids without even so much as being in the same country as a child, let alone it actually hurting them through its production.

People are unironically reporting loli/shota to foundations that are trying to keep track of and crack down on real child porn and it's costing them loads of time and money, which are resources now not being put towards actual victims. This shit needs to be put to bed.

Also anyone going "Well consuming loli/shota will normalize sexualizing children and cause people to offend!"
You don't have a shred of evidence to support that claim, same with video games and movies causing violence.
"Fictional crimes" don't normalize real crimes, never have and never will.

 
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My thoughts on people who fap to loli and shota are that they are indeed pedos or at best have pedo tendencies. All defenses to the contrary are wrong by default. If you get hard at the image of some underage girl who lacks both breasts, curves and size then you are pedo. Especially if its the only thing you can get hard too. If you are at that point there really is no hope for you.

That said, I don't think it should be banned. Nobody is getting hurt by it existing, and it may in fact be helpful by giving an outlet for Pedos to get their rocks off and not prey on actual underage girls/boys or seek out and support the CP industry. I know, :optimistic:, but its my hope nonetheless. There is also the more overriding concern about giving the government authority to classify things arbitrarily. At what point does a drawn image stop being CP. Are the Raphael Cherubs CP?

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Its better to just avoid the debate entirely. If there is noone being hurt, its not a crime.
 
After reading what many folks posted, especially "secret asshole," it is apparent that the consumer of Loli is a different animal, from the consumer of kiddy porn. Or that these images appeal to distinct erotic imaginations/needs?

Or do they?

When they crack into pedo's hard drives, and subsequently examine their browser history and browsing habits, do they find a lot of Loli/Shota? By extension, do they find My little Pony or furry shitcrap?

Based on what @Secret Asshole is saying, this is a different fetish, different issue, different audience. Perhaps we should investigate the behavior of offenders, and not vilify cartoons, in and of themselves.

Regardless, the idea of "immoral art should be censored" doesn't sit well.
 
Maybe we should focus on making sure actual children don’t get fucked before we deal with faggots jerking off to Babette because “She’s actually 300 she said so!”
 
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Porn itself should already be banned and the production thereof prosecuted by anti-obscenity laws. Children, adults, animals—the content of pornography does not matter. Pornography itself is a grave sin and a cancer to society.

Paying lip service to the immorality of child pornography is just a pathetic way for people that masturbate to virtue signal. The topic of child porn is just a scapegoat for self-loathing perverts to attempt to excuse their own sins. Do not fall into this stupid trap. Understand the base premise of pornography.

I'm not sure pornography is a sin, being that I'm not religious, but the increasingly violent and degrading porn that we've seen over the last twenty years is certainly a cancer which is destroying society...exactly as intended.

Any form of CP is evil and those making and distributing it should be executed.
 
I don't care for excuses, if you draw or consume child pornography in any form you're a pedophile. It doesn't matter if the child isn't real and it's drawn, it's the idea of children doing sexual stuff that's turning you on. There's all kind of perverted shit on the web that you can wank to but you choose children because they don't know any better and their vulnerability excites you. It's the most vile thing a human being can do and there's nothing that can justify it.
 
I don't care for excuses, if you draw or consume child pornography in any form you're a pedophile. It doesn't matter if the child isn't real and it's drawn, it's the idea of children doing sexual stuff that's turning you on. There's all kind of perverted shit on the web that you can wank to but you choose children because they don't know any better and their vulnerability excites you. It's the most vile thing a human being can do and there's nothing that can justify it.
Actually you would have to ask a consumer of Loli/Shota. I can't get into these people's heads, but maybe it IS the sexualized imps, in the fantasy space that turns them on.

The gaze, or the voyeurism is part of the appeal of any pornography. Say you are a heterosexual male, watching gay porn. Does this turn you on? Probably not, because you really wouldn't want to be the guy on the top, or the bottom.

In the case of child pornography, the viewer either envisions himself in the position of power, holding the camera and the child at his beck and call. Or he is standing in the position of child victim, perhaps remembering what it was like to be afraid and vulnerable, when he was on the cusp of puberty. Or imagining what such an experience would be like. Or it is the illicit experience of gazing at the immature body, as he imagines the sensory experience.

Perhaps consumers of this Japanese aesthetic have a rich imagination, but instead of getting off imagining themselves blowing some big black * or molesting a little girl, they actually transport themselves to that childish fantasy space, with superimposed adult sexuality.

If this is the case, then they aren't harming any victims, but they are sexualizing their pathological dorkdom.
 
but you choose children because they don't know any better and their vulnerability excites you

Fictional characters don't know anything, period. They can't possess knowledge because they aren't alive, so by that logic jerking off to Superman would be just as vile to you? I mean he doesn't know anything, he's just as vulnerable as any other fictional character as far as real people are concerned.

If you want to talk within the context of the universe, it varies from series to series. You can have a ten year old be as wise and knowledgeable as an actual 50 year old man.
Not to mention you're ignoring the fact not everyone likes loli/shota/etc for the same reason. Hell there are tons of series where the "child" is the aggressor or even outright rapes other characters.
 
Null summed it up pretty well, sure they might be deviants but it's hard to give a fuck when all they do is hide in their rooms jerking it instead of running out committing actual crime. You can whine all you want about hating pedos and calling loli/shota lovers vile but there doesn't seem to be any connection between hentai and actual child abuse. If you're looking at real CP instead of japanese drawings, then you are much more fucked up. Complain about it all you want, but you're yelling into an empty room and all you're doing is virtue signalling to a bunch of people who give much less of a shit. You can cry, but what are you gonna do about it?

Since this thread got """necro'd""" even though its only a month or two back, anyone reading the thread read at least a few pages back for some context and so that you aren't garbling shit everyone else has said. I put some UN child abuse statistics on 24 that are some food for thought and plenty of points have been made that seem to have not been read on this page. I know this applies to all threads and that I'm probably preaching to the choir but gets annoying when you spew mindless bullshit.
 
There is a difference in the sense that there is no victim from drawings (aside from good taste itself), but the same depravity seems to be triggered by both drawings and the criminal images. If you feel attracted to drawings of small children getting wrecked, just neck yourself. You're on a really fuct up path that leads to nothing but destroyed families in your wake through life.

However, I would never ban drawings, as there is no actual victim (again, aside from good taste).
 
As a side note; the law has ventured here OP in some places.

Loli/Shota or anything of that kind have been illegal in France and the UK for many years and people have been prosecuted for it. Technically even historical works like Lolita are covered by this too but I dont believe anyone has been arrested for the latter.
 
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