Diseased #Comicsgate - The Culture Wars Hit The Funny Books!

[jspit]

I think main difference is specialized comic book stores. When WCW went down it didn't have much of an impact for TV stations. With comic book shops it is different, there are many reports about them doing poorly and you can bet that if DC goes down then bunch of shops will go down as well since they won't be able to sell new Batman or Superman comics. With shops closing it will cut into other publishers profits as well, because those same shops that were being kept alive by Batman most likely were also selling Marvel and Image comics. So it can create a cascade effect.

Obviously it doesn't mean that comics would die then, they just likely would completely shift to digital, OGNs and subscription model.



Well that depends on who you are asking. Some people were saying that Comixology will kill comic book shops because why you'd go to a shop when you can buy digital copy. Others said that nobody is going to buy digital when you can buy real thing. So I guess truth is somewhere in the middle?



I vaguely remember reading few years ago that digital usually has 10% of physical sales, but it wasn't source and more of a "a guy who knows a guy said to another guy" story so I'm not sure how accurate that is.

I do remember Marvel making a big thing about how Ms. Marvel's digital sales matched her physical sales, but I don't remember anyone else shouting about similar thing so I'd guess that digital coming close to physical sales is super rare thing.

1. Shops matter as distributors, but yes, comics as we know them aka monthly ongoings could die.

2. Digital has been flat. People said the same things about trades in the 00's they did about digital in the 10's. They aren't a goldmine, they don't cause piracy, and ultimately the majority of readers for the price of a digital comic prefer something physical. The one wrinkle is the subscription model. That could have real teeth.

It was actually doing worse than it is now. While data is not reliable due to nobody releasing complete numbers and methodologies changing over the years you can get general idea by looking over this page: https://www.comichron.com/yearlycomicssales.html

Does it mean that "woke comics" increased the sales? Not really. I'd say main things that helped the market are:

1. Collected editions now are hotter than they were 10-20 years ago. Back then it was almost entirely DC's market, now everyone is trying to play there.
2. Despite all the doom and gloom digital comics had very small impact on comics sold to comic book shops. But digital comics added around 100$ mil to the industry.

Does it mean that everything is great? No, if AT&T decides that comics are not worthwhile then entire industry is likely to collapse since no one is going to be able to fill that 25-30% hole left in the market.

One thing that people often overlook, while looking at the sales charts, is how entire TOP 300 is doing. Often TOP 10 is doing worse than it did X years ago, but when you look at what 300th position sold it often paints completely different picture.

Price per unit has dramatically risen since the 00's. They're squeezing to gin up the numbers. Sales also started to flatline toward the 10's, as proto wokeness took hold. All the stuff I've mentioned before was taking place. Post OMD Amazing and Didio running with bad ideas like countdown and Bart Allen as the Flash. Trades have helped, but trades of what? Trades of comics from the past. Kindof like the replica one dollar comics.

 

[Tanner Glass]

Hmm so it's like I thought, comics were already in decline and and all the reboots/going woke was a desperate attempt to appeal to a younger demo.

So you don't think Marvel is going be able to monopolize it like WWE did to wrestling when WCW folded in 2001?

WWE survived (and thrived) because of two main reasons.

1) They were able to buy and utilize the assets of WCW - this primairly means the wrestlers, but also the storylines, support staff, referees, back catalogue, ect. The WWE was able to instantly integrate WCW into the larger WWE product.

Marvel won't have that same luxury - Marvel has a parent company (Disney) that isn't super psyched with the print division right now, it's very unlikely they'd looking to expand it on a scale of "an entire different, also underperforming, company". That's also assuming that AT&T even wants to sell the company instead of shuttering it (while holding on to the Intellectual Properties).

Even if they did in theory buy DC - it would take a long time, a fair amount of hiring and promotion, for Marvel to do anything "amazing" with DC's IPs. Frankly, most comic aficionados feel that Marvel flat out doesn't have the talent to do it currently - even if they had the legal right. There has also already been a decent amount of DC and Marvel crossover, and DC has already crossed over with basically everyone on earth.

There's a Batman/Ninja Turtles crossover, there's a Batman/Elmer Fudd crossover, and a Transformers/My Little Pony crossover. I don't think a Batman/Spiderman crossover will be so massive as to able to save two failing companies.

2) WCW folding didn't affect WWE's distribution method. WWE's product was still accessable for the entire time during the collapse (via TV on Monday, Thursday(?), and Sunday).

Marvel may not have this same luxury either. Comic book stores are a dying breed right now and DC's collapse might close way more of them as they will no longer have the DC profit, meager as it may be, to count on. Every comic book store that closes is another comic book store that will not be selling Marvel comics or merchandise. This is already, without DC's collapse, becoming a large problem for Marvel presently.

 

[CheezzyMach]

WWE survived (and thrived) because of two main reasons.

1) They were able to buy and utilize the assets of WCW - this primairly means the wrestlers, but also the storylines, support staff, referees, back catalogue, ect. The WWE was able to instantly integrate WCW into the larger WWE product.

Marvel won't have that same luxury - Marvel has a parent company (Disney) that isn't super psyched with the print division right now, it's very unlikely they'd looking to expand it on a scale of "an entire different, also underperforming, company". That's also assuming that AT&T even wants to sell the company instead of shuttering it (while holding on to the Intellectual Properties).

Even if they did in theory buy DC - it would take a long time, a fair amount of hiring and promotion, for Marvel to do anything "amazing" with DC's IPs. Frankly, most comic aficionados feel that Marvel flat out doesn't have the talent to do it currently - even if they had the legal right. There has also already been a decent amount of DC and Marvel crossover, and DC has already crossed over with basically everyone on earth.

There's a Batman/Ninja Turtles crossover, there's a Batman/Elmer Fudd crossover, and a Transformers/My Little Pony crossover. I don't think a Batman/Spiderman crossover will be so massive as to able to save two failing companies.

2) WCW folding didn't affect WWE's distribution method. WWE's product was still accessable for the entire time during the collapse (via TV on Monday, Thursday(?), and Sunday).

Marvel may not have this same luxury either. Comic book stores are a dying breed right now and DC's collapse might close way more of them as they will no longer have the DC profit, meager as it may be, to count on. Every comic book store that closes is another comic book store that will not be selling Marvel comics or merchandise. This is already, without DC's collapse, becoming a large problem for Marvel presently.

Well my comment wasn't about Marvel buying DC * which will never happen * rather Marvel using DC's collapse to flood stores with even more of their product to effectively monopolize a niche industry.

The thing is though as you yourself note WWF wasn't also floundering like WCW was in the late 90s rather they were just hitting their stride.

The fact that both the Big 2 are struggling while literally everything else with a superhero plastered on it sells like hotcakes says something more to me about the popularity of the comic book format in general these days.

 

[Tanner Glass]

Well my comment wasn't about Marvel buying DC * which will never happen * rather Marvel using DC's collapse to flood stores with even more of their product to effectively monopolize a niche industry.

The thing is though as you yourself note WWF wasn't also floundering like WCW was in the late 90s rather they were just hitting their stride.

The fact that both the Big 2 are struggling while literally everything else with a superhero plastered on it sells like hotcakes says something more to me about the popularity of the comic book format in general these days.

Yeah, the point is that those same stores that would be "flooded" with Marvel need decent DC books to survive. Marvel books aren't good enough by themselves to keep comic stores afloat and if comic stores start failing even harder than they are now, Marvel won't really have a way to get books to the people. This is already a problem as comic stores are failing and a fair amount of "die hard" comic buyers are going the indie/kickstarter route, which cuts out comic book stores entirely.

The comic book format (or even book format) isn't really the problem - it's the consistency of the platform and subsequent stagnation that Marvel is struggling with. If you track "book" sales, you'll notice it mainly increases year over year. I didn't do a gigantic, detialed analysis, but it looks like DC generally outperforms Marvel in comics - while IDW and Image are competitive along with Marvel and DC in Graphic Novels.

Graphic Novels are growing (and represent 66% of comic profits, allegedly) where as comics have fallend to 33%. A lot of graphic novels are just complete collections of older comic book arcs, meaning that a lot of buyers today still prefer older stories and characters than what the companies are currently putting out.

 

[GranDuke]

Price per unit has dramatically risen since the 00's. They're squeezing to gin up the numbers. Sales also started to flatline toward the 10's, as proto wokeness took hold. All the stuff I've mentioned before was taking place. Post OMD Amazing and Didio running with bad ideas like countdown and Bart Allen as the Flash. Trades have helped, but trades of what? Trades of comics from the past. Kindof like the replica one dollar comics.

Good thing is that we have "units sold" stats as well and can see how they changed over the decades. I'm also not sure what flatline you see towards the 10's when 2015-2016 period had highest unit sales.

 

[CheezzyMach]

Yeah, the point is that those same stores that would be "flooded" with Marvel need decent DC books to survive. Marvel books aren't good enough by themselves to keep comic stores afloat and if comic stores start failing even harder than they are now, Marvel won't really have a way to get books to the people. This is already a problem as comic stores are failing and a fair amount of "die hard" comic buyers are going the indie/kickstarter route, which cuts out comic book stores entirely.

The comic book format (or even book format) isn't really the problem - it's the consistency of the platform and subsequent stagnation that Marvel is struggling with. If you track "book" sales, you'll notice it mainly increases year over year. I didn't do a gigantic, detialed analysis, but it looks like DC generally outperforms Marvel in comics - while IDW and Image are competitive along with Marvel and DC in Graphic Novels.

Graphic Novels are growing (and represent 66% of comic profits, allegedly) where as comics have fallend to 33%. A lot of graphic novels are just complete collections of older comic book arcs, meaning that a lot of buyers today still prefer older stories and characters than what the companies are currently putting out.

I was referring to the traditional floppies. While Manga and GN *supposedly * are selling well they have more in common with novels and paperbacks which are also selling well.

The thing is this isn't restricted to comics periodical magazines in general are feeling the crunch and falling

 

[Ma Wang]

@FROG

Looks like Dee Dee Myers is parting ways with Warner Brothers.

Dee Dee Myers will leave job as Warner Bros.' head of corporate communications

After a management shake-up and takeover, Dee Dee Myers is exiting Warner Bros. as its head of corporate communications after five years in the role.

www.latimes.com

 

[Tanner Glass]

I was referring to the traditional floppies. While Manga and GN *supposedly * are selling well they have more in common with novels and paperbacks which are also selling well.

The thing is this isn't restricted to comics periodical magazines in general are feeling the crunch and falling

Manga/GN are selling well compared to comic books, though. And it's tracking higher and higher year over year.

In 2012, for example - Graphic Novels sold about $385m, compared to Comics $330m - but it's close, nearly 50/50.
In 2015 - Graphic Novels jumped to $535m, comics grew to $405m - widening the gap.
In 2018 - Graphic Novels keept going to $635m, but comics shrunk to $360m - increasing the gap drastically.

Graphic novels are important for a lot of reasons - one of the reasons they're likely doing well is that you can access them much easier. They're likely to be sold in your department stores, online retailers, book stores, and so on. They aren't as tied to comic shops as regular monthly or bi-weekly comics are. But even in comic book shops, graphic novels are making up at a minimum 33% of all sales; making them gigantic towards the company's profits.

To me, it's a very interesting shift that could potentially highlight a number of things - that people like complete or longer series, that people are open to comic books as a concept but don't latch on to the books of 2018 as much as they did the ones in 2012, or that people prefer shopping at Barnes and Noble instead of thier LCS. It's clearly open to interpretation - to me these paint a picture of people not having a "falling out" with comics per se, but the format and stories being not what they're looking for. It's likely tied to my own anecdotal experience with comics as well. It also coincides with people also not going to comic book stores as much either by choice or by force (if the LCS closes due to poor sales, for example).

 

[FROG]

@FROG

Looks like Dee Dee Myers is parting ways with Warner Brothers.

Dee Dee Myers will leave job as Warner Bros.' head of corporate communications

After a management shake-up and takeover, Dee Dee Myers is exiting Warner Bros. as its head of corporate communications after five years in the role.

www.latimes.com

Fucking excellent.

 

[CheezzyMach]

Manga/GN are selling well compared to comic books, though. And it's tracking higher and higher year over year.

In 2012, for example - Graphic Novels sold about $385m, compared to Comics $330m - but it's close, nearly 50/50.
In 2015 - Graphic Novels jumped to $535m, comics grew to $405m - widening the gap.
In 2018 - Graphic Novels keept going to $635m, but comics shrunk to $360m - increasing the gap drastically.

Graphic novels are important for a lot of reasons - one of the reasons they're likely doing well is that you can access them much easier. They're likely to be sold in your department stores, online retailers, book stores, and so on. They aren't as tied to comic shops as regular monthly or bi-weekly comics are. But even in comic book shops, graphic novels are making up at a minimum 33% of all sales; making them gigantic towards the company's profits.

To me, it's a very interesting shift that could potentially highlight a number of things - that people like complete or longer series, that people are open to comic books as a concept but don't latch on to the books of 2018 as much as they did the ones in 2012, or that people prefer shopping at Barnes and Noble instead of thier LCS. It's clearly open to interpretation - to me these paint a picture of people not having a "falling out" with comics per se, but the format and stories being not what they're looking for. It's likely tied to my own anecdotal experience with comics as well. It also coincides with people also not going to comic book stores as much either by choice or by force (if the LCS closes due to poor sales, for example).

Thanks for the concrete numbers.


I feel we're saying the same thing here.

My belief now is that what's happening to comics isn't in a bubble regarding just that industry but rather the collapse of the periodical magazine in general.

 

[Elwood P. Dowd]

Graphic novels are important for a lot of reasons - one of the reasons they're likely doing well is that you can access them much easier. They're likely to be sold in your department stores, online retailers, book stores, and so on.

And they're sold to bookstores and (I think?) departments stores with an unlimited right of return.

LCS's take it up the pooper yet again. (Unless they have a different deal with GNs? Never heard this, though.)

 

[Tanner Glass]

Thanks for the concrete numbers.


I feel we're saying the same thing here.

My belief now is that what's happening to comics isn't in a bubble regarding just that industry but rather the collapse of the periodical magazine in general.

I agree - but I think it's really compounded by a dramatic drop in quality of your typical comic. I think the market is still there and technically sustainable, but the quality of the product is harming it more than the format. I think the rise of indie comics/kickstarter format is a testament to that.

Either way, Marvel is only going to have more problems going forward. They really need to figure out a lot of issues that they don't seem to have a great handle on.

And they're sold to bookstores and (I think?) departments stores with an unlimited right of return.

LCS's take it up the pooper yet again. (Unless they have a different deal with GNs? Never heard this, though.)

I don't know the specifics, but I know that for comics - Marvel has a bit of a reputation for bullying LCSes into buying more books than they will reasonably be able to sell. I would imagine that Graphic Novels don't have the same return policy, but frankly the larger companies (Walmart, Barns and Noble) have much more leverage against Marvel than any single comic book shop.

 

[jspit]

WWE survived (and thrived) because of two main reasons.

1) They were able to buy and utilize the assets of WCW - this primairly means the wrestlers, but also the storylines, support staff, referees, back catalogue, ect. The WWE was able to instantly integrate WCW into the larger WWE product.

Marvel won't have that same luxury - Marvel has a parent company (Disney) that isn't super psyched with the print division right now, it's very unlikely they'd looking to expand it on a scale of "an entire different, also underperforming, company". That's also assuming that AT&T even wants to sell the company instead of shuttering it (while holding on to the Intellectual Properties).

Even if they did in theory buy DC - it would take a long time, a fair amount of hiring and promotion, for Marvel to do anything "amazing" with DC's IPs. Frankly, most comic aficionados feel that Marvel flat out doesn't have the talent to do it currently - even if they had the legal right. There has also already been a decent amount of DC and Marvel crossover, and DC has already crossed over with basically everyone on earth.

There's a Batman/Ninja Turtles crossover, there's a Batman/Elmer Fudd crossover, and a Transformers/My Little Pony crossover. I don't think a Batman/Spiderman crossover will be so massive as to able to save two failing companies.

2) WCW folding didn't affect WWE's distribution method. WWE's product was still accessable for the entire time during the collapse (via TV on Monday, Thursday(?), and Sunday).

Marvel may not have this same luxury either. Comic book stores are a dying breed right now and DC's collapse might close way more of them as they will no longer have the DC profit, meager as it may be, to count on. Every comic book store that closes is another comic book store that will not be selling Marvel comics or merchandise. This is already, without DC's collapse, becoming a large problem for Marvel presently.

1. The Marvel stuff is bizarre. It makes no sense for them to buy the license because the Mouse is all about Disney plus and movies. Without getting to make stuff for those two mediums, I can't see them paying the heavy fee the DC license is worth.

2. They can still survive on Amazon, the rump bottom stores that are fine, and the alternative markets. Marvel is safe because Disney is financially sound. If it wasn't they'd be in trouble. That's why DC is in trouble.

Good thing is that we have "units sold" stats as well and can see how they changed over the decades. I'm also not sure what flatline you see towards the 10's when 2015-2016 period had highest unit sales.

We do. We also know about this thing called overships. Good thing. Captain Marvel totes sold, right?

I'm assuming your referring to the Hickman/Fraction Marvel or the Nu52 around this time? Lots of funny numbers and statistics.

 

[GranDuke]

We do. We also know about this thing called overships. Good thing. Captain Marvel totes sold, right?

I'm assuming your referring to the Hickman/Fraction Marvel or the Nu52 around this time? Lots of funny numbers and statistics.

Are you seriously going to claim that comic book publishers overshipped close to 10 million copies in, for example, 2015? And no, I'm not referring to Nu52, that was in 2011-2013, which by the way also had higher unit sales than what we had in 2001-2003 period.

 

[Robert James]

Are you seriously going to claim that comic book publishers overshipped close to 10 million copies in, for example, 2015? And no, I'm not referring to Nu52, that was in 2011-2013, which by the way also had higher unit sales than what we had in 2001-2003 period.

I mean maybe not 10 million but my local shop tends to get shipped around 3-20 extra copies of anything marvel related that is being pushed. Multiply that by the sheer number of awful titles they publish multiply by the number of comic book stores and you can see a couple million being over shipped. Remember they classify X numbers of shipped as sold it's why they can tout that Ms.Marvel and Captain marvel sell so well even though every comic shop has ten or so copies of each issue.

I don't think they inflate the numbers that much but they do it just enough so their comic favorites look like they are doing well instead of failing.

 

[jspit]

Are you seriously going to claim that comic book publishers overshipped close to 10 million copies in, for example, 2015? And no, I'm not referring to Nu52, that was in 2011-2013, which by the way also had higher unit sales than what we had in 2001-2003 period.

I'm going to claim they overshipped. Not all. But you acknowledge the practice. More, they overship #1's more than regular. They do other things that inflated the unit numbers...

For example, Carol Danvers had one ongoing in the 00's. It ran straight. No annual reboots, no gimmick renumbers.

In 2012 KSD launches the first #1 Carol Cap. By 2020, We've had four reboot #1's and another handful of minis.

I don't think it was all overships. There was a bump were people were promised first appearances that led to speculation. Marvel was the worst, but the Nu52 was pretty bad. 52+ number 1's in a year. Your damn straight they had a brief boost in units moved. But I've walked into my comics shop and been able to pick thru dozens of Nu Firestorm or Hawk and Dove #1s.

My point is it was short sighted strategy when as a reader during that period I can tell you, those issues didn't find there way to peoples homes.

Meanwhile, in CG

Richard's on his game. He reviewed Amethyst, which hurts. I really like Amy Reeder's art. Xanadu was awesome.

AMETHYST #1- Awkwardly Shoehorning Current-Year Identity Politics Into Stories Is Sooooooooo 2018

THE EXPENDABLES GO TO HELL Indiegogo Campaign: https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/the-expendables-go-to-hell-graphic-novel IRON SIGHTS: 2 PSYCHOS Indiegogo C...

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Frog's on fire recently. I can't believe I'm saying this but he actually has something valuable to say.

FO REAL THO: Could Marvel and DC merge? COMIC INDUSTRY COLLAPSE CONTINUES!!

Back CYBERFROG UNFROGETTABLE TALES here: https://igg.me/at/yJlr378AKog/x/3778633#/ Join the Email Notification list for CYBERFROG 2 REKT PLANET! https://www....

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Art Thibert had a great stream some days ago where he talked about super sons getting cancelled and he's really been doing good stuff.

Dan DiDio let go from DC Comics + The last of the BLACK & WHITE head sketches

Here is a link to the GREATEST comic of all time CHRONO MECHANICS: https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/chrono-mechanics-retro-fit#/ Original Artwork sales: ht...

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Tennaple and Miller took some shots at Red Rooster and Allegiance. Mike's imitating Frog despite hating his guts.

CROWDFUNDING COMICS! Nerds of the Round Table

Bigfoot Bill 2 and Earthworm Jim creator Doug TenNapel and Quarter Black Garrett join me to discuss crowdfunding comics today! Back Bigfoot Bill 2 here! http...

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Speaking of his big headedness, Bill's at 53,000 and 579 backers.

In comics

Bendis is having yet another event, Hickman ripped off Grant Morrison on the X-men, and Superboy Prime is back.

 

[KingofNothing]

Detective Dead is...well dead. Cridious bit off more than he could chew and blew through all the money

 

[Love Soze]

Well, with Detective Dead officially dead, I guess I'm just waiting for Red Rooster to be officially out of CG. Oh, and that damn missing Ashcan I still don't have. RIP my money for those, I'm guessing.

 

[Nippy]

Detective Dead is...well dead. Cridious bit off more than he could chew and blew through all the money

View attachment 1162732

Hail comicsgate!

In all seriousness though he seemed like a nice guy and it sucks things ended up the way they did. But sometimes there are gatekeepers for a reason.

 

[Detrogen]

Hail comicsgate!

In all seriousness though he seemed like a nice guy and it sucks things ended up the way they did. But sometimes there are gatekeepers for a reason.

Yeah I wouldn’t go out of my way to shit on Cridious since he’s literally just some working class guy with a bunch of kids who wanted to make a book. Someone mentioned earlier in the thread that Warcampaign had it out for him. Can anyone confirm if there’s any truth to that?