Crime The Waco Siege: What Happened When the Feds Laid Siege to the Branch Davidian Compound

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The siege of the Branch Davidian compound in Waco, Texas, is an important event in American history because it directly led to one of the biggest terrorist attacks on American soil – the bombing of the Oklahoma City Federal Building. It’s not necessary to defend this act of terrorism to understand why the entire freedom movement of the time was so incensed by it. Indeed, it stood as a symbol of federal overreach and the corruption of the Clinton Administration.

It’s important to separate fact from fiction when it comes to the siege of Waco, just as it is important to do so with the siege of Ruby Ridge or the attack on the American consolate in Benghazi. With every event, it is important to stick to the facts and what can be extrapolated from them to make the strongest argument about what went wrong and why, and what could be done differently in the future.

Background: Who Are the Branch Davidians?
The Branch Davidians were a tiny offshoot of mainstream Seventh-Day Adventism. This stemmed from an earlier split between the main church and a group called Shepherd’s Rod, The Rod or the Davidians. It was effectively a reform movement within Adventism, albeit with some beliefs considered heretical by the mainstream church, none of which are important or relevant for this discussion.

The Branch Davidians were established some 20 years later, and a much more radical departure from Seventh-Day Adventism born from disappointment at the failure of earlier prophecies to materialize. There was some wrangling over the leadership of the group after the death of its founder, but Vernon Howell, better known to the world as David Koresh, ultimately won out over the wife and son of the founder.

Everyone liked Howell when he first showed up at the compound in 1981, including the head of the organization at the time, Lois Roden, with whom he had an affair, despite a more than 40-year age gap (he was in his late 20s, she was in her late 60s). He wanted to have a child with her, one that he believed would be the Chosen One of their religion.

Her son, George Roden, took over upon her death, which led to a power struggle between the two. Roden challenged Howell to raise the dead, going so far as to exhume a corpse for this purpose. Howell attempted to file charges against Roden over the grave robbing, but the police told him that more evidence was needed.

It was then that Howell and seven of his followers raided the compound armed with five .223 caliber semiautomatic rifles, two 22 caliber rifles, two 12-gauge shotguns, and almost 400 rounds of ammunition. They said they were trying to collect evidence of illegal activity on the compound, but forgot to bring a camera with them for that purpose. This was the definitive split where Howell won control of the Branch Davidian church at Mount Carmel. Those who did not follow him continued to use this name and argue that he was never rightfully in possession of it.

It was then that Vernon Howell became David Koresh, a name based on the historical King David and Cyrus the Great (“Koresh” being the Hebrew version of “Cyrus”).

By 1989, Koresh began marrying the members’ wives and daughters, some as young as 12, which was cited as a reason for the eventual raid. He claimed this came from an order from God. The men in the group other than Koresh were to remain celibate.
The Sinful Messiah
Koresh first began getting media attention from the Waco Tribune-Herald in February 1993. “The Sinful Messiah” was the name of a series of articles by Mark England and Darlene McCormick about Koresh and his followers. The articles mostly revolve around the child abuse claims and Koresh’s claim that he had over a dozen children, some of them with girls as young as 12.

Additionally, the group was suspected by local law enforcement of “stockpiling” illegal weapons. Local law enforcement alerted the ATF in May 1992, based on a call from a concerned UPS driver. By June 9th, the ATF had officially opened an investigation into the group.

This is perhaps the time to begin talking about some of the misconceptions or smears about the Branch Davidians. We are agnostic as to whether or not the group was a “cult,” as this can be defined differently by different people. However, the notion that Koresh kept his people in line with either mesmerism or fear does not square up with reports to Congress and elsewhere from survivors of the group. What’s more, rather than the dregs of Waco, many in the group were educated, most were religiously serious, and the group eschewed drugs and junk food.

Contrary to popular belief, Koresh did not claim to be the Second Coming of Christ, but rather to be a new messiah for a new age. The term “sinful messiah” was in fact one of Koresh’s own coinage, meaning that he was a messiah like Christ but, unlike Christ, had a sinful nature.

The allegations of child abuse that prompted the final siege on Mount Carmel is even highly in dispute. Most of the allegations against Koresh come from either disgruntled former members or those involved in child custody battles. The church was investigated by state authorities but not prosecuted, because no solid evidence was ever found. That Koresh married a 14-year-old girl is true, but this would have been totally legal with parental consent at the time – so what were state authorities supposed to do?

Assuming that the allegations of child sexual abuse were true – and we consider them to be extremely dubious – what was the ATF or the FBI doing there? And how does opening fire, throwing hand grenades, poison gassing and burning alive children serve to protect them? These are the important questions which stand as a stunning indictment of federal law enforcement, even if one accepts that child abuse was taking place within the compound.

As with Ruby Ridge, the allegations of the federal government and their toadies in the corporate media are distortions (“Koresh claims to be Christ”), dubious (“Koresh is abusing children”) and, more to the point, irrelevant (“The Branch Davidians were cooking meth”). The FBI and ATF were on the scene in Waco for one reason and one reason alone: To serve a search warrant to determine whether or not the Branch Davidians were making automatic weapons.
The Raid of Waco
The actual events of the raid can be difficult to tease out. Each side disagrees as to what the sequence of events were.

What we know is that, based on an affidavit filed by Davy Aguilera, the ATF obtained a search warrant. This was based on the testimony of a postal agent about what he considered to be suspicious deliveries to Mt. Carmel. However, none of the deliveries were in and of themselves illegal, and included items such as 45 AR-15 upper receivers, and five M-16 upper receivers.

The search warrant was mostly based on the number of weapons possessed by the Davidians. But in the United States of America, we have the right to own as many weapons as we can afford. What’s more, the notion that the Davidians were “stockpiling” weapons is a red herring: They were selling weapons (legally) in addition to buying them, so “inventory” might be the more accurate term for what they had at Mt. Carmel.

According to Dick J. Reavis, author of The Ashes of Waco:
“One of the prophecies that has been around Mt. Carmel since 1934 called for an ultimate confrontation between God's people, or those at Mr. Carmel, and the forces of an armed apostate power called Babylon . . . Perhaps with that in mind, in 1991, the Davidians began studying armaments and buying and selling guns. He (Koresh) pretty quickly found out there is a lot of money to be made at gun shows and he and other people started going to gun shows. And they bought and sold. They bought items that weren't guns, and they bought items that were guns. We now say, or the press now says, most people say, they stockpiled weapons. All gun dealers stockpile weapons. We call those stockpiles an inventory. There was an inventory of weapons at Mt. Carmel. A number of guys were involved in the gun shows, just as a number were involved in souping up and restoring cars, and just as a number were involved in playing in the band. There were circles or knots or subsets of people who had hobby interests that were only indirectly related to theology, and guns were one of those interests.”
The ATF’s raid, codenamed “Showtime,” was moved up one day in response to a local newspaper’s article on the Davidians. The local sheriff was not aware of the raid, but the Davidians knew it was coming. The ATF chose to raid the property rather than pick up Koresh while he was in town. An ATF agent who had infiltrated the group reported that they knew of the raid and that his cover was blown. When asked what they were doing when he left the property on the day of the raid, he said that the Davidians were praying.

There was another factor influencing the ATF’s decision to raid the Davidians when they did: Money. According to Henry Ruth, one of three independent reviewers of the Treasury Department's report on Waco:
“With appropriations hearings a week away, a large successful raid for the ATF would've proposed major positive headlines for the agency. It would've helped counter the narrative of the ATF as a rogue agency. And it would've spread fear about radical fringe groups which would put pressure on Congress to increase its budget. Part of their motivation was to use the siege at Waco as a publicity stunt.”
There is much discussion and debate about who fired first, however, there is ample evidence that it was the ATF when they went to shoot the Davidians’ dogs in their kennels on the way to surrounding the compound. What’s more, the ATF showed up in a cattle trailer protected by a tarp, wearing no body armor. They were not dressed for an armed confrontation with apocalyptic religious extremists.

A ceasefire was negotiated by local authorities. The sheriff claims that the ATF only withdrew once they were out of ammunition. What this means is that if the Branch Davidians were the dangerous extremists they were portrayed as, they could have easily shot down every ATF agent either then or when they went out to recover their dead. They did not; the Davidians honored the ceasefire.
“They could've killed every ATF agent out there the day of the raid, had they kept shooting. But when they said they would leave their property, they quit shooting. They were highly protective of their property.”
Jack Harwell, Sheriff, McLennan County
And so began the 51-day standoff in Waco, Texas.
The Waco Standoff
The standoff is frequently thought of as a benign and inert non-confrontation. However, this is untrue. While it’s true that no shots were fired, there was a virtual constant low-level assault on the compound in the form of noise (rabbits being slaughtered, jet planes, pop music and other loud noises), threatening tank movements and poison gas, and flash bang grenades. Federal agents would frequently give the middle finger to or “moon” the people inside Mt. Carmel.

The tanks were used to crush the outer perimeter, out buildings, private vehicles belonging to the Branch Davidians, and were repeatedly rolled over the grave of Branch Davidian Peter Gent, despite protests from both Branch Davidians and federal negotiators.

While none of this is acceptable, two of these activities bear special examination: the gas and flash bang grenades.

The “tear gas” used against the compound was military grade, a type that can turn toxic very easily. The federal agents knew there were children and even infants in the house, children too small for any gas mask to cover. They shot the grenades in anyway, effectively considering the suffering of the children inside as acceptable collateral damage. Further, flash bang grenades are deadly and certainly violated the spirit, if not the letter, of the ceasefire.

Koresh became concerned with the safety of the group due to increasingly aggressive tactics. All told, 11 people left the Davidian house, all of whom were arrested as material witnesses, with one indicted for conspiracy to commit murder. Children inside were increasingly unwilling to leave Koresh’s side, especially once they learned that the children who had previously left had been separated from their mothers and other women in the group who had been caring for them.

Communication predictably began to break down. The FBI considered using snipers to take out Koresh and other leaders of the movement, and feared a mass suicide. However, Koresh denied such a thing was imminient and those leaving the compound had seen no plans in place for a mass suicide.
How the Media Portrayed the Standoff
Koresh and the Davidians watched what the ATF and other federal agents were saying publicly about the initial raid during their 51-day standoff. The public narrative didn’t line up with what the Davidians had experienced, making negotiations even more difficult:
Jim Cavanaugh, ATF negotiator: Well, I think we need to set the record straight, and that is that there was no guns on those helicopters (used in the initial raid). There was National Guard officers on those helicopters . . .
Koresh: Now Jim, you're a d*mn liar. Now let's get real.
Cavanaugh: David, I . . .
Koresh: No! You listen to me! You're sittin' there and tellin' me that there were no guns on that helicopter!?
Cavanaugh: I said they didn't shoot. There's no guns on . . .
Koresh: You are a d*mn liar!
Cavanaugh: Well, you're wrong, David.
Koresh: You are a liar!
Cavanaugh: OK. Well, just calm down . . .
Koresh: No! Let me tell you something. That might be what you want the media to believe, but there's other people that saw too! Now, tell me Jim again. You're honestly going to say those helicopters didn't fire on any of us?
Cavanaugh: What I'm sayin' is . . . now I listened to you, now you listen to me, OK?
Koresh: I'm listening.
Cavanaugh: What I'm sayin' is that those helicopters didn't have mounted guns. OK? I'm not disputing the fact that there might have been fire from the helicopters. If you say there was fire from the helicopters and you were there that's OK with me. What I'm tellin' you is there was no mounted guns, ya know, outside mounted guns on those helicopters.
Koresh: I agree with you on that.
Cavanaugh: Alright. Now, that's the only thing I'm sayin'. Now, the agents on the helicopters had guns.
Koresh: I agree with you on that!
Cavanaugh: You understand what I'm sayin'?
Koresh: I agree with you.
Cavanaugh: OK, OK. So see, we're not even in dispute and Steven's getting all worked up over it.
Koresh: Well, no. What the dispute was over, I believe Jim, is that you said they didn't fire on us from the helicopters.
Cavanaugh: Well, what I mean is a mounted gun . . . like a, you know, like a mounted machine gun.
Koresh: Yeah. But like that's beside the point. What they did have was machine guns.
This distrust by the Davidians of the ATF and their lead negotiator, Jim Cavanaugh, helped exacerbate the standoff.
The Final Siege of Mount Carmel
The newly minted U.S. Attorney General Janet Reno was unhappy with the progress being made at Waco, and invoked (what else) the abuse of children in her pitch for a resolution to the conflict. For his part, President Clinton, who had dealt with a similar situation as Governor of Arkansas in 1985 – with The Covenant, The Sword, and The Arm of the Lord – initially urged waiting out the group. Reno, however, cited antsy agents and budgetary concerns. Ultimately, Clinton told her to do whatever she thought was best.

The FBI Hostage Rescue Team – derisively nicknamed the “Hostage Roasting Team” and which denied any evidence of child abuse – came armed with 50 caliber rifles and punched holes in the walls of the building with explosives so they could pump CS poision gas into a building with small children and infants inside. The plan was to announce to the group that there was no plan to take the house by force while slowly pumping greater amounts of CS gas inside to increase pressure on them to leave.

The fires began around noon on the final day of the standoff. The FBI maintains that they were started deliberately by the Davidians, with some survivors claiming that the FBI started the fires either intentionally or accidentally. Footage of the Davidians talking about gasoline seem to refer to them making Molotov cocktails to fight the FBI with.

Nine people left the building during the fire. The remaining people inside all died either from the fire, smoke inhalation, were buried alive by rubble or were shot. Some showed signs of death by cyanide poisoning, which would likely have been a result of the burning CS gas. All told, there were 76 deaths.

FBI claims in the 51 days during the standoff they never fired a single shot. Then 27 of the people in the compound died of bullet wounds. Then those were self-inflicted or inflicted by other members inside the compound. Federal investigators considered suicide as a possible form of gunshot death for the Davidians. It did not consider forced execution to be a likely cause of death.

An exchange between Sen. Chuck Schumer and Assistant Attorney General Edward Dennis in the Clinton Administration in the subsequent congressional investigation summed it up best:
Charles E. Schumer, U.S. Congressman, New York (D): We've heard that in the 51 days the FBI was involved, they did not fire a single shot . . . First, That would mean quite certainly that 27 of the people who died in the compound, I think the autopsy report showed 27, I may be off by one or two, who died of bullet wounds, those were self-inflicted or inflicted by other members within the compound . . .
Edward Dennis, Former Assistant Attorney General, Clinton Administration: I think that's a key issue. The fact that Koresh was capable of setting the fire, of killing his own followers, that parents were capable of killing children, or adults were capable of killing children, really says more about the mentality of the individual that you were dealing with and the difficulty in trying to figure out the best way to talk he and his followers out of that compound.
After the Raid
Today the only building on the site is a small chapel erected years after the raid. The building itself was razed. The incoming head of the ATF, John Magaw, was critical of the raid and made the Treasury Department’s Blue Book report on the matter required reading for incoming agents.

Nine Branch Davidians received sentences of up to 40 years for counts including voluntary manslaughter and weapons charges. Several other Davidians, including foreign nationals, were imprisoned indefinitely as material witnesses. Derek Lovelock, a British national, was held in McLennan County Jail for seven months, with the bulk of this time in solitary confinement. Livingstone Fagan claims to have been repeatedly beaten by guards at Leavenworth and other places. It was here that Fagan claims he was sprayed with cold water by a high-pressure hose before the guards put an industrial fan outside of his cell. Guards strip searched him every time he left his cell, so he began refusing exercise.

Over 100 civil suits were brought against the government by Branch Davidians and their surviving families. Most of these were dismissed before ever coming before a jury. Where cases were brought to court, the Davidians were ruled against. A jury in San Antonio, however, acquitted Branch Davidians in the killing of four ATF agents on grounds of self defense.

Perhaps the most important piece of evidence that the ATF fired first was lost. Houston attorney Dick DeGuerin testified under oath that the right-hand entry door to the building had only incoming bullet holes in it. A Texas state trooper testified that he saw two men load what looked like that door into a Uhaul. The Branch Davidians argued at trial that the condition of the left-hand door (i.e., intact) means that the right-hand door was not destroyed in the fire, but “lost” on purpose. There seems to be no better explanation considering how buttoned down the crime scene was and the stakes involved in shielding the ATF and other federal agents from investigation.

The door was not the only evidence that was “lost.” The ATF’s footage of the original raid was also mysteriously (and miraculously, depending on what side you’re on) somehow lost. All this, despite congressional demands to produce both:
“I will just make one comment to the witnesses relative to the video and the front door. We have consistently asked as a committee to get a copy of the videotape which they now say is blank. We have asked for the door, and the door is missing.”
William H. Zeliff, Jr., U.S. Congressman, New Hampshire (R)
What the Waco Siege Tells Us About the Federal Government
The Waco siege does not provide any new or stunning insight about the federal government or how it operates. It does, however, confirm something that we know all too well: That when the federal government makes mistakes, its tendency is not to address and remedy those mistakes, but to double down, come back harder, and take every measure they can to conceal their wrongdoing.

However, there is another more sinister strand to this story: Did the FBI kill men, women and children because of budgetary concerns?

There is some evidence to suggest that they did. Federal law prevents the military from enforcing federal law. What’s more, any training that law enforcement agencies receive from the military must be paid out of their own budgets – unless the training is for enforcing “drug laws.” Late Congressman Steven Schiff of New Mexico testified that, ”In order for the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms to have obtained the military assistance they did receive, not because of the Posse Comitatus Act, but because of existing military policy, they misrepresented to the military that this was an anti-drug raid when it was never an anti-drug raid.”

In David Hardy’s “This is Not an Assault,” he stresses, “Once the military trainers pointed out that the ATF would have to pay, the ATF suddenly claimed that the Davidians – who in fact eschewed hard liquor, tobacco, cow’s milk and junk food – were a ‘dangerous extremist organization’ believed to be producing methamphetamine.”

There is no evidence that the Branch Davidians were in any way involved in drug production. There is, however, ample evidence to suggest that the federal government callously ignored the lives and safety of those inside to grandstand before cameras and justify bigger budgets.
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The miniseries, 'Waco', is a relatively faithful depiction of the events leading up to the FBI assault on the Waco church and their killing of seventeen little children and 59 adults, including two pregnant women.

An interview with David Thibodeau, who was lucky to survive fire and FBI gunfire after being turned back from the bunker the women and children had been sheltering in- one of the FBI's first targets for destruction- is available here, and he has given many other interviews and talks about the FBI's massacre many times over the years, as have some of the other surviving victims.
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Tanks used to create openings in the buildings to spread the flames
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FBI agents pose for trophy photos as the children burn. Agents took further celebratory photos posing in the rubble after their fire had done its work.
 
Those tactics are not effective in the slightest against an opponent with the military strength and industrial capacity of the US who is determined to win. The only reason the US did not win in vietnam or the war on terror is because they held back both for ethical reasons and due to pressure back home

The US could have mopped the floor with the entire middle east in a few months if they truly wanted to and had a need to and were willing to do what was necessary to do so. Have them take the gloves off and start targeting civilians on a large scale, start deploying biological and chemical weapons, start large scale mass napalming of cities and towns, start using terror tactics themselves. Completely disregard the geneva convention and be full on total war about it, engage in cruelty that would make the romans and the germans cringe.

Glassing a place has no geopolitical benefits and destroys your reputation. The US got away with it by being the first in an age where strategic bombing was accepted and by being the good guys of the war. Glassing Arkansas would put make the US govt the bad guy in the eyes of most.

Glassing your own cities leads to mass defections and the destruction of your own industrial capacity. Occupying a place or having it in your sphere of influence means boots on the ground and/or the support of the people.
 
I remember @JohnDoe and @Jet Fuel Johnny making posts debunking this kind of argument a while ago.

Those arguments were more about general civic insurrection, but as others stated this is completely different; the Branch Davidians were people people trying to keep their children from being murdered. If they had been out to stack the Fed bodies high they would have and could have done so with ease. Whether or not that would have led to fewer of their kids being ultimately murdered by their government is a mystery for the ages.
 
Domino theory was absolutely seriously examined and it terrified everyone in the DOD, the JCS, and even the President. To say "everyone knew it was horseshit" is horseshit. Domino theory wasn't counted out until the Vietnam-China border war that broke out in the 70s. There were many papers published and circulated in the DOD advocating for a "proactive defense" that included the shuffling of divisions from Europe over to Asia to prepare for the communist revolutions just over the horizon. The JCS were even prepared to go to Congress to ask to extend the draft to maintain a million man army capable of both deterring the Pact in Europe and fight multiple revolutions in Asia. It wasn't just some meme they came up with. It was a very real and present fear. Just because it turned out to be incorrect due to the difficulty of the CIA and MI6 to purse ComBloc relations doesn't mean it wasn't a real fear that drove US foreign policy.

Also the majority of US troops sent to Vietnam were volunteers. The protesters were rich college kids that recieved educational draft deferments. They were also overwhelmingly "democratic socialists" i.e fucking commies.

I also trust the military-industrial complex to be completely honest about our need to go to war. It's not like they get funding on that basis or anything. No conflict of interest there, no siree. And they certainly wouldn't financially incentivize politicians to agree with them, that's outrageous.

*sees cultural marxist takeover of universities and institutions in general* "The biggest threat to america in the 60s and 70s was obviously a bunch of illiterate gooks in some jungle half a world away."
 
I also trust the military-industrial complex to be completely honest about our need to go to war. It's not like they get funding on that basis or anything. No conflict of interest there, no siree. And they certainly wouldn't financially incentivize politicians to agree with them, that's outrageous.

*sees cultural marxist takeover of universities and institutions in general* "The biggest threat to america in the 60s and 70s was obviously a bunch of illiterate gooks in some jungle half a world away."
*notices your bulge* UwU
 
I remember watching the recent miniseries about Waco and thinking "Wow, the people who wrote this are almost certainly kid fuckers. Someone should search their computers."
 
The whole thing was because the Clintons and Janet Reno wanted to make an example of what they saw as "right-wing extremists and civilian militias". They didn't like the idea of a large group of people who were armed and organized, because if more people get armed and organized it takes away the control the government can exert over them. It had nothing to do with child abuse, Koresh marrying minors, drugs, or anything else. Those are just excuses to cover for the real motivations for the raid. Ruby Ridge was the same story. In fact, Randy Weaver was set up by an undercover agent. He was pressured by the undercover agent for a long time to cut down a shotgun to an illegal length. Lon Horiuchi, the FBI HRT sniper who shot Weaver's wife while holding their baby, was also present at Waco.

All those people, including innocent women and children, slaughtered because the ATF wanted funding and because the Clintons and Reno hated that they exercised their right to own firearms. And their legacy has been to be slandered/libeled and lied about. The whole reason we have the Second Amendment is to protect ourselves from a government drunk on power like this.
Neolibs, amirite?
 
have to horrifically kill the children in order to save them

mcveigh publicly expressed regret for bombing the building that had a day care, saying that if he had known he wouldn't have done it

also koresh used to go on daily jogs, if they really wanted him himself they could have just arrested him while he was out

Um, no? McVeigh considered it a bonus that it had a daycare because it was an eye for an eye.
 
McVeigh did nothing wrong.

he wrote a piece saying that it was basically standard operating procedure. Innocent people get killed in wars all the time so it happened here because of Waco? Fuck the feds, the unabomber is my personal hero, the only good Fed is a dead one (I’ll take one with stage 4 cancer too), and they can fuck off.

I hate the fucking feds so god damn much those piece of shit assholes. fuck the dumb ass FBI and ATF the dumbest fucking groups ever. The fbi is just the most competent local cops getting together (so retarded) and the atf are the “dont make your own liquor” cops. Like what the fuck? Go jump off a cliff and do us a favor your cock suckers.
 
McVeigh did nothing wrong.

he wrote a piece saying that it was basically standard operating procedure. Innocent people get killed in wars all the time so it happened here because of Waco? Fuck the feds, the unabomber is my personal hero, the only good Fed is a dead one (I’ll take one with stage 4 cancer too), and they can fuck off.

I hate the fucking feds so god damn much those piece of shit assholes. fuck the dumb ass FBI and ATF the dumbest fucking groups ever. The fbi is just the most competent local cops getting together (so exceptional) and the atf are the “dont make your own liquor” cops. Like what the fuck? Go jump off a cliff and do us a favor your cock suckers.

The alphabet organizations are like America's Praetorians.

Fun fact: Presidents usually had to go their offices instead of the other way around
 
Um, no? McVeigh considered it a bonus that it had a daycare because it was an eye for an eye.
I wouldn't be surprised if he had said that at some point in a moment of righteous anger, but if you read a little about the case, he would have seriously reconsidered target selection if he'd been aware of the daycare. I don't have 'American Terrorist' to hand, but I recall taking the implication that as well as simply wanting to avoid killing children as his enemies do with glee, he was at least a little annoyed over the fact that the Feds were able to use the daycare nonsense as a bloody shirt to pretend they didn't get exactly what they deserved.
 
I wouldn't be surprised if he had said that at some point in a moment of righteous anger, but if you read a little about the case, he would have seriously reconsidered target selection if he'd been aware of the daycare. I don't have 'American Terrorist' to hand, but I recall taking the implication that as well as simply wanting to avoid killing children as his enemies do with glee, he was at least a little annoyed over the fact that the Feds were able to use the daycare nonsense as a bloody shirt to pretend they didn't get exactly what they deserved.

I thought he was aware of the daycare beforehand. I know he considered it a top target because it had all three branches he had a grudge against there.

He also later said that if he could do it all over again, he would have conducted a guerrilla sniper campaign. Reasoning that even if it killed less people, random attacks on bureaucrats would have spread much more fear.
 
I thought he was aware of the daycare beforehand. I know he considered it a top target because it had all three branches he had a grudge against there.

He also later said that if he could do it all over again, he would have conducted a guerrilla sniper campaign. Reasoning that even if it killed less people, random attacks on bureaucrats would have spread much more fear.
The secret police claimed afterwards that he 'must have' known without any actual evidence, but really there would be no reason for the sort of planning he would have done beforehand to identify that, nor did he work in the sort of flash professional/government environments where such a facility might be available..

He had previously shifted targets after identifying that innocent civilians might be at excess risk.
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https://www.theguardian.com/world/2001/mar/30/julianborger
 
I thought he was aware of the daycare beforehand. I know he considered it a top target because it had all three branches he had a grudge against there.

He also later said that if he could do it all over again, he would have conducted a guerrilla sniper campaign. Reasoning that even if it killed less people, random attacks on bureaucrats would have spread much more fear.
While the idea sounds reasonable, we saw that even sniper campaigns don’t always amount to much. Feds would likely hunt him down the moment a bureaucrat was shot, and the big names like Reno were virtually untouchable due to precautions taken after Kennedy. Truth be told, Tim would be forgotten quickly and at best vilified as “that guy that shot a few paper pushers”
 
Domino theory wasn't counted out until the Vietnam-China border war that broke out in the 70s.

IIRC, the border war, and all it's related posturing, was considered "intramural" by the State Department.

Also, for everyone sperging about "but small arms don't matter against tyranny!", anon has something they'd like to remind oyu of -
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IIRC, the border war, and all it's related posturing, was considered "intramural" by the State Department.

Also, for everyone sperging about "but small arms don't matter against tyranny!", anon has something they'd like to remind oyu of -
View attachment 1169966
That post, or a post like that, actually made me soften my stance on gun control because it's an actual eloquent argument for the use of firearms rather than the pants shitting and screeching that accompanies asking a politician about literally anything.

Anyway, to get on topic of Waco, I remember reading this book from a psychologist about the kids of Waco (there were 2 raids and some kids were taken in the 1st before the whole compound went up later). It was some pretty creepy shit.
 
I had a boss when I was young say that the alphabet boys have day cares in federal buildings so people feel bad for them when they get attacked. He wasn't a flat-earther or even remotely a conspiracy theorist, I just thought it was shitty that my tax dollars are going to free child care for IRS employees.

It's a shame that people who don't remember or weren't old enough to see it actually believe that the Branch Davidians were a bunch of child rapists, the Clinton administration did a great job of making it look that way. Hard to defend yourself in court when your entire family is burnt up like gas station hot dogs. Those kids died because a woman wanted to make a name for herself.
 
McVeigh did nothing wrong.

he wrote a piece saying that it was basically standard operating procedure. Innocent people get killed in wars all the time so it happened here because of Waco? Fuck the feds, the unabomber is my personal hero, the only good Fed is a dead one (I’ll take one with stage 4 cancer too), and they can fuck off.

I hate the fucking feds so god damn much those piece of shit assholes. fuck the dumb ass FBI and ATF the dumbest fucking groups ever. The fbi is just the most competent local cops getting together (so exceptional) and the atf are the “dont make your own liquor” cops. Like what the fuck? Go jump off a cliff and do us a favor your cock suckers.

No fan of McVeigh but Kaczynski did very little wrong and his manifesto becomes more and more right everyday
 
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You know what kind of conspiracy theory just tickles my balls? One surrounding Timothy McVeigh. Desert Storm combat vet who gets chosen to go to selection and he justs like "pfft, later homos I'm done" and just stops? Nah, I bet there was some sheep hiding going down. Look, what if McVeigh ended up being a Delta Force operator? What does this have to do with Waco? There is video of operators approaching the compound looking to clear it. Timothy McVeigh had some connection because he claimed that the Oklahoma City Bombings were payback. The thing is, there is plenty of evidence showing the Oklahoma City bombing was in fact a false flag.

Maybe I'm just high.
 
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