The Holocaust Thread - The Great Debate Between Affirmers, Revisionists and Deniers

[Ughubughughughughughghlug]

You know what I don't understand? Why waste all that time and resources on gas chambers? I am sure they could have scrounged up six million bullets to spare.

 

[Lemmingwise]

You know what I don't understand? Why waste all that time and resources on gas chambers? I am sure they could have scrounged up six million bullets to spare.

PTSD. That is the traditional answer. Though I'm not sure how carrying bodies out of a gas chamber is any easier on the PTSD. But I don't know. It might be.

Why is it so goddamn hard to believe that Nazis were horrible people who killed Trump's Chosen People?

Why is it so hard to understand that people are interested in truth over just looking at it emotionally?

Does it have no relevance at all to know if it was 17 million, 11 million, 6 million, 1 million or 50.000?

Does it have no relevance at all if they were all killed in eloctrocution chambers, gas chambers, burned alive, shot, shot or starved?

Why is it so hard to believe that people might be curious about the exact facts of an historically important event?

 

[TaimuRadiu]

PTSD. That is the traditional answer. Though I'm not sure how carrying bodies out of a gas chamber is any easier on the PTSD. But I don't know. It might be.


Why is it so hard to understand that people are interested in truth over just looking at it emotionally?

Does it have no relevance at all to know if it was 17 million, 11 million, 6 million, 1 million or 50.000?

Does it have no relevance at all if they were all killed in eloctrocution chambers, gas chambers, burned alive, shot, shot or starved?

Why is it so hard to believe that people might be curious about the exact facts of an historically important event?

Yes yes, Hitler was a good boi, dindu nuffin.

 

[Imperial Citizen]

PTSD. That is the traditional answer. Though I'm not sure how carrying bodies out of a gas chamber is any easier on the PTSD. But I don't know. It might be.


Why is it so hard to understand that people are interested in truth over just looking at it emotionally?

Does it have no relevance at all to know if it was 17 million, 11 million, 6 million, 1 million or 50.000?

Does it have no relevance at all if they were all killed in eloctrocution chambers, gas chambers, burned alive, shot, shot or starved?

Why is it so hard to believe that people might be curious about the exact facts of an historically important event?

Because the questioning of the Holocaust is wrapped around neo-nazism which makes it is hard to distinguish if someone wants an accurate understanding of the event or if it is to deny it outright.

Think about more recent traedgies like Sandy Hook. People are able to ask about the details of the shooting, but that questioning has been tied to harassment of the victims’ family members.

Another example would be investigating connections between Trump and the Russian government. Since people trying to determine a connection are politically motivated, you’d be skeptical of anyone claiming to have found that connection.

Questioning these events are poisoned with negative connotations that are difficult to overcome.

 

[Emperor Julian]

I've also heard arguments like "well there are no documents that say that Hitler himself ordered it" - so what? The National Socialists had almost complete power in the Greater German Reich, and if they thought they were doing things to please Hitler they would do it. Hitler sure as hell wasn't ignorant that there were concentration camps and that they were responsible for slave labor in the "East". At this point it's like denying that Action T4 was going on.

Their are several personal accounts that Hitler was aware of the event and it wouldnt exactly reflect well on Nazism that the state is so fragemented that the head of state was unaware of massive logistic events while specifically focused on the war.

The holocaust apparantly stretches credability but apparantly they managed to keep the holocaust from Hitler even though he really hated jewish people so would have no reason to deceive him.

 

[Lemmingwise]

Because the questioning of the Holocaust is wrapped around neo-nazism which makes it is hard to distinguish if someone wants an accurate understanding of the event or if it is to deny it outright.

Think about more recent traedgies like Sandy Hook. People are able to ask about the details of the shooting, but that questioning has been tied to harassment of the victims’ family members.

Another example would be investigating connections between Trump and the Russian government. Since people trying to determine a connection are politically motivated, you’d be skeptical of anyone claiming to have found that connection.

Questioning these events are poisoned with negative connotations that are difficult to overcome.

Full agree. Of course my comment was aimed at, and apparently failed to, broaden the mind of the person I was responding to.

What I've learned from this is that there is a clear playbook available that one can use to make it unfeasable to investigate an event as long as you've got one fall guy, one agent provocateur, or seriously deranged person, put that person on the other side, put some camera's on it and then in the future say every person is like that guy.

That seems to be how one effectively poisons the well.

 

[Unog]

You know what I don't understand? Why waste all that time and resources on gas chambers? I am sure they could have scrounged up six million bullets to spare.

I wonder the same thing, though it could be that the blockades and shit kept them from using ammunition for non-combat reasons.

 

[Flynt's Missing Pecker]

Okay real quote so requires some actual research. Looking at historical accounts most people gassed were never registered, but rather were gassed upon arrival-which makes sense on a practical level.

Can I ask for evidence that people were “gassed upon arrival “ and at which camps?

Can I see a direct order from anyone directing the gassing?

Can you please show me where these millions upon millions of people are buried?

In reality, you want to believe it happened so badly, that the Holocaust story will just keep changing to suit the lack of evidence. In the end, you are the conspiracy theorist.

 

[Lemmingwise]

Related the other discussion going on in this thread, today I received a special 2nd world war related newspaper. My city has a resistance hero, who among other things smuggled intel and harbored jews. She was discovered, arrested, transported to a concentration camp and shot on arrival by firing squad.

Every year since the war someone planted flowers in the shape of her name by the water in a public park. I used to think it was an expression of love by some guy. You only see the flowers for about a month every year.

Not making any big point, just a bit serendipitous.

 

[Emperor Julian]

Can I ask for evidence that people were “gassed upon arrival “ and at which camps?

Can I see a direct order from anyone directing the gassing?

Can you please show me where these millions upon millions of people are buried?

In reality, you want to believe it happened so badly, that the Holocaust story will just keep changing to suit the lack of evidence. In the end, you are the conspiracy theorist.

Nah....I'll look up that shit for you or elaborate on something you should already probably know if you admit error on why the gassings arnt mentioned in Francis H. Hinsley's work or provide a counter arguement why they should be. Why would I bother doing what you should have done if you're not even going to admit error and I'm just going to have explain to you something else et nausium?

That's just projection ,I'm not particulary emotionally invested in the Holocaust outside of proffesional disdain for the intellectual lazyness inherant in denial, I've know about 2 jews one of which I personally disliked and the other I barely knew , I frankly find WW2 history boring because I was forced to do it for pretty much everything up to the Masters (about 6 years) and while I do find racism pathetic I don't loose much sleep over it. anymore than I spend all night staring at the roof about thieves, scam artist or junkies You've already just changed tact from your initial bad arguement while avoiding any questions thrown back at you.

 

[Krokodil Overdose]

How would the destruction of documents during the war and Nazi's being big on book keeping (which no one in the posts claimed) be contradictory? I can sort of see how my statement they deliberatly obfuscated what was going on might clash with later attempts to destroy the paper trail (sort off) but how would them burning all their shit because they don't want to be shot contradict their bureaucratic process?

The documentation was either created or it wasn't. If it was created, it was subsequently destroyed, or it wasn't. Going from "those dead people are on paperwork, to confirm that they are dead" to "we don't know how many Holocaust survivors actually survived due to the SS/Nazi's retreating and as a result, they did a assortment of things" (in the space of two posts, no less.) If all/some of the documentation was destroyed, that ought to mean that the number of victims/survivors is in doubt, just as a matter of fact. If the documentation is fully or essentially complete, then we should know the number of deportees, victims, and survivors. Either way, it makes no sense to have one number but not the other correlated ones.

 

[Rice Is Ready]

You know what I don't understand? Why waste all that time and resources on gas chambers? I am sure they could have scrounged up six million bullets to spare.

Well the official story is that Himmler was sickened by a mass execution by shooting so he developed "mobile gas vans" which lead to the creation gas chambers at camps.

 

[Emperor Julian]

If all/some of the documentation was destroyed, that ought to mean that the number of victims/survivors is in doubt,

Why?

 

[Flynt's Missing Pecker]

Why would I bother doing what you should have done if you're not even going to admit error and I'm just going to have explain to you something else et nausium?

What error?

Notice how once asked for anything to back up your ever changing story you quickly retreat. Normally the one making the claims is meant to give evidence.

Well the official story is that Himmler was sickened by a mass execution by shooting so he developed "mobile gas vans" which lead to the creation gas chambers at camps.

The mobile gas vans did exist. They were for delousing in places like the countryside where it was impractical to build chambers and were not a German invention. There were prototype vans created as early as WW1.

 

[Emperor Julian]

What error?

Notice how once asked for anything to back up your ever changing story you quickly retreat. Normally the one making the claims is meant to give evidence.

Looking at historical accounts most people gassed were never registered, but rather were killed upon arrival-which makes sense on a practical level. The gassings would never have appeared in these decodes at all since they only dealt with the registered inmates. ergo your example British intelligence extracts is invalid.

I've never seen this approach to holocaust denial before, I know the moral outrage throws people off but being deliberatly obtuse to turn it into shit flinging is quite novel.

 

[Imperial Citizen]

Full agree. Of course my comment was aimed at, and apparently failed to, broaden the mind of the person I was responding to.

What I've learned from this is that there is a clear playbook available that one can use to make it unfeasable to investigate an event as long as you've got one fall guy, one agent provocateur, or seriously deranged person, put that person on the other side, put some camera's on it and then in the future say every person is like that guy.

That seems to be how one effectively poisons the well.

Well to be clear, I am in the belief that the Holocaust did happen, exactly as it has been stated. The Nazis shot, gassed, starved, and exterminated 11-12 million people in their bid to cleanse their lands of “subhuman” races, homosexuals, communists, and anyone else they deemed inferior. We’ve got too many records and personal accounts to believe that there is a massive cover-up.

If you want to believe differently I’m not going to force you to change your ways. All you’ve got to do is come up with a very good explanation as to what needs to be questioned about the Holocaust.

On your comment about a playbook, none of these poisoning are done to stop any investigation. The people who deny these atrocities are often just plain nuts, trying to get money, or doing it to support a political agenda.

I’m pretty sure you and I would believe that the Armenian Genocide happened, but the Turkish government denies it. And I’m sure that we would both agree that they are doing it because they don’t want to admit that Ataturk did some awful things to create modern Turkey or to give the Armenians in Turkey any legitimacy. Nobody engineered the Turkish government’s denial to stop people from looking into the genocide.

 

[Flynt's Missing Pecker]

Looking at historical accounts most people gassed were never registered, but rather were killed upon arrival-which makes sense on a practical level.

So the Germans were keeping track of camp arrivals, departures and deaths but decided to ignore people “gassed on arrival”. What the hell does that even mean?

What historical accounts are you talking about? Which camps were they gassed upon arrival? Where were they buried?

Nothing about your story makes sense on any level. Maybe quit while you’re way behind and stop embarrassing yourself.

The people who deny these atrocities are often just plain nuts, trying to get money, or doing it to support a political agenda.

Shall we compare how much money has been made from enforcing the Holocaust belief to those questioning it?

 

[Emperor Julian]

So the Germans were keeping track of camp arrivals, departures and deaths but decided to ignore people “gassed on arrival”. What the hell does that even mean?

What historical accounts are you talking about? Which camps were they gassed upon arrival? Where were they buried?

Nothing about your story makes sense on any level. Maybe quit while you’re way behind and stop embarrassing yourself.



Shall we compare how much money has been made from enforcing the Holocaust belief to those questioning it?

It means the gassings would never have appeared in these decodes at all since they only dealt with the registered inmates. ergo your example British intelligence extracts is invalid. Do you understand this part?

Well as we've explored I'll answer that this tangental question once you admit you're willing address the initial point. Do you understand? I'm unsure how else to explain this to you.

Better idea, can you understand how much money is spent on either perspect would be a red herring? For example if I was to spend 10 pounds trying to disprove the 1242 battle on the ice vs however much money 'enforces' the reality the battle occured-would that make my perspective be more legitimate because more money has been involved in the battles record and depicition in history?

 

[Flynt's Missing Pecker]

It means the gassings would never have appeared in these decodes at all since they only dealt with the registered inmates. ergo your example British intelligence extracts is invalid.

Last chance to answer. Which camps were they gassed at? Where is one directive ordering the gassing on arrival? What makes you think people on the trains would be ‘unregistered’? Where are the bodies buried?

 

[Lemmingwise]

Well to be clear, I am in the belief that the Holocaust did happen, exactly as it has been stated. The Nazis shot, gassed, starved, and exterminated 11-12 million people in their bid to cleanse their lands of “subhuman” races, homosexuals, communists, and anyone else they deemed inferior. We’ve got too many records and personal accounts to believe that there is a massive cover-up.

If you want to believe differently I’m not going to force you to change your ways. All you’ve got to do is come up with a very good explanation as to what needs to be questioned about the Holocaust.

On your comment about a playbook, none of these poisoning are done to stop any investigation. The people who deny these atrocities are often just plain nuts, trying to get money, or doing it to support a political agenda.

I’m pretty sure you and I would believe that the Armenian Genocide happened, but the Turkish government denies it. And I’m sure that we would both agree that they are doing it because they don’t want to admit that Ataturk did some awful things to create modern Turkey or to give the Armenians in Turkey any legitimacy. Nobody engineered the Turkish government’s denial to stop people from looking into the genocide.

It's alright, if everybody thought about it like you, there would be less dust in the air and it would be clearer to see and therefor I wouldn't have significant doubt with the official story.

I don't think it's a genocide on the scale of the official story. The 5 million non-jew death is a straight up admitted fabrication. The number 6 million is just a little too religiously significant to be accurate. The number of deaths mentioned at the stone at auschwitz was changed from 4 million to 1.1 million at some point in the last two decades.¹
I don't think mass gassing is very likely to have occured. It is too strange that the museums pass off rebuilt structures as original gas chambers, as David Cole exposed in a caught in the act interview. I also think it's odd that the soviet gasvan invented/requested by isay berg is frequently presented as a German invention.

Whether I believe in the holocaust or not depends on how you define the term. I do believe there was a genocide, starvation, disease, shootings. I think many more (people of various ethnicities) would have died under German rule if they had not lost the war, though possibly not as many as ended up dying under soviet rule.

But I consider deaths between 200000 and 2 million likely. Maybe if there were more transparancy and less persecution of investigators I'd believe the official numbers.

As for Turkish government, the US also denies their war crimes. I'd say I don't risk going to prison investigating that, but that wouldn't be true. Journalists all over the world that unearth certain truths have a tendency to disappear, die or be arrested.




¹The two frequent counters to this are A. The number of jews not returning stayed constant. (but we don't have numbers of that and many may well have moved to Israel/US after) B. That historians never took that number serious, (which still means that the public has been lied to for half a century and justifies revisionist investigation)