Star Trek - Space: The Final Frontier

[TaimuRadiu]

My thanks to all those who said Enterprise Season 4 was worth sticking around for. It arrived last weekend and so far I've watched the Soong / Augments arc and am now part way through the Vulcan bombing rebellion thing arc. All been top-notch so far.

I thought season 4 was the worst. I liked season 2 the best.

Yeah the season 5 thing was a bit of a shame, but understandable. The TV movie/spin-off stuff was a little bit less palatable for me. But the 4-ish great seasons ended up being a lot less cheesy and a lot better-written than I was expecting (and next to no technobabble, whew)

Aside from the Byron arc Season 5 wasn't that bad. I've never seen Crusade or most of the TV movies tho.

 

[BScCollateral]

Yeah the season 5 thing was a bit of a shame, but understandable. The TV movie/spin-off stuff was a little bit less palatable for me. But the 4-ish great seasons ended up being a lot less cheesy and a lot better-written than I was expecting (and next to no technobabble, whew)

I was hoping Bester would get his comeuppance. It would be a shame if they were going to do that in Season 6.

 

[XYZpdq]

iirc one time at a con I heard Koenig discuss that thing with Bester's hand, I may be recalling it wrong but I think it was, like, in his mind it was just a non-specified injury from earlier days in the corps, and then some nerd pointed out in the books they come up with some shit
edit-

As for Walter...he made the decision to play Bester with a deformed or
useless hand, which he's compensating for as a teep.

so yeah maybe that instead I dunno

 

[Zaryiu]

When did the novels start going toward grimdark edgy shit? I'm tempted to get them on the high seas for fun and i'm avoiding those that read like the official product ended up under Kurtzman

 

[Dafuqisdis?]

One of the bizarre things about the Star Trek movies is that Wrath of Khan stands so tall in reputation that they tried to remake it three straight times.

Nemesis, the Star Trek reboot and Into Darknesss are all attempts to copy Wrath of Khan, one after the other after the other. The only one of those that's even half way decent is the reboot. Nemesis is the worst Star Trek film and one of the worst films to get a major release period.

 

[Ihavetinyweewee]

One of the bizarre things about the Star Trek movies is that Wrath of Khan stands so tall in reputation that they tried to remake it three straight times.

Nemesis, the Star Trek reboot and Into Darknesss are all attempts to copy Wrath of Khan, one after the other after the other. The only one of those that's even half way decent is the reboot. Nemesis is the worst Star Trek film and one of the worst films to get a major release period.

It's because it's the most accessible, entertaining Trek film.

But, it has almost nothing to do with the themes of Star Trek...

It's a character study wrapped around an action film...

The character study, though, had an entire series to act as a foundation for the film...

 

[Flexo]

I'm not sure if it exists, but I'd love a no holds barred write up about 5's production. It's a weird film in the series for a few reasons. I know Shatner wrote about it in one of his memoirs, but I'm not sure if he held his punches to be "polite."

As for the story, I thought it would have been cool to tie the galactic barrier seen in the TOS episode "Where No Man Has Gone Before" with the being trapped in the galactic core. Maybe have Spock theorize that the Milky Way was a galactic prison created by "someone." Nerdy as hell, but an interesting thought.

Well you made me do it...

Someone did.

https://memory-beta.fandom.com/wiki/The_Q_Continuum

It's literally all in there, and yes the "god" at the center of the galaxy is related to what's trapped outside of the galaxy (and why there's a barrier at both places).

iirc I heard that the 90s novels (maybe the Peter David ones?) have a thing about the space gods like Shakaree and the beings from that TOS being a rival race to the Q?

*points above* Don't me sperg on out the details now unless you're prepared.

 

[Dafuqisdis?]

It's because it's the most accessible, entertaining Trek film.

But, it has almost nothing to do with the themes of Star Trek...

It's a character study wrapped around an action film...

The character study, though, had an entire series to act as a foundation for the film...

There's also a great nugget of science fiction at the heart of Wrath of Khan with the Genesis device. Something that most Star Trek films are lacking. So honestly I think it's the most Trek of the Trek films in that regard, besides maybe the Voyage Home.

 

[AnOminous]

It's because it's the most accessible, entertaining Trek film.

But, it has almost nothing to do with the themes of Star Trek...

It's a character study wrapped around an action film...

And because Ricardo fucking Montalban gives one of the chaddest scenery chewing performances in movie history, even compared to Shatner, who gives one of his own best scenery chewing performances. KHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAN!

 

[King Dead]

One of the bizarre things about the Star Trek movies is that Wrath of Khan stands so tall in reputation that they tried to remake it three straight times.

Nemesis, the Star Trek reboot and Into Darknesss are all attempts to copy Wrath of Khan, one after the other after the other. The only one of those that's even half way decent is the reboot. Nemesis is the worst Star Trek film and one of the worst films to get a major release period.

Beyond was basically also an attempted Khan remake (captain of a crashed Federation ship mutates into hideous creature and plots revenge against the Federation for abandoning him), but to its credit, it was also the most watchable. It had some dumb moments, but they were generally fun dumb as opposed to cringe dumb. It also gave the entire main crew things to do, as opposed to just being the Kirk and Spock Show with everyone else hanging out in the background. Fuck you, JJ, Karl Urban deserved better.

So basically every ST film after Insurrection was going back to the Khan well over and over. None were more blatant than Into Darkness, of course. I can't tell you how much I cringed in the theater while watching that, ho boy. That movie being as bad and dumb as it was probably had a hand in Beyond's meh box office, which is a shame because it was the only nu-Trek film I enjoyed. It was also the only film not directed by JJ. Coincidence? No, not at all, JJ is a hack fraud.

As others have said, they kept attempting to remake Wrath of Khan because it's the simplest plot in a Star Trek movie when you boil it down to "some guy wants revenge on the Federation." However, by focusing on the revenge part, they ignored everything else that made Wrath of Khan great: Kirk's midlife crisis, his relationship with Carol and David, his never facing the no-win scenario (which related to TOS), Spock's sacrifice for the greater good, and even the ramifications of the Genesis project. It was also neat to return to a plot point from the TV show and tell a sequel story to it, and I don't think they could have picked better than Space Seed. The other movies were just cheap action schlock in space, in comparison.

Considering who has their hands on Star Trek nowadays, even if we do somehow see another Trek movie in the future, I wouldn't expect to see anything but more Khan rehashes. They don't know how and don't care to produce thought-provoking sci-fi, they just want to put a bunch of ships on screen and make things blow up in a seizure-inducing space battle.

 

[Ihavetinyweewee]

Beyond was basically also an attempted Khan remake (captain of a crashed Federation ship mutates into hideous creature and plots revenge against the Federation for abandoning him), but to its credit, it was also the most watchable. It had some dumb moments, but they were generally fun dumb as opposed to cringe dumb. It also gave the entire main crew things to do, as opposed to just being the Kirk and Spock Show with everyone else hanging out in the background. Fuck you, JJ, Karl Urban deserved better.

So basically every ST film after Insurrection was going back to the Khan well over and over. None were more blatant than Into Darkness, of course. I can't tell you how much I cringed in the theater while watching that, ho boy. That movie being as bad and dumb as it was probably had a hand in Beyond's meh box office, which is a shame because it was the only nu-Trek film I enjoyed. It was also the only film not directed by JJ. Coincidence? No, not at all, JJ is a hack fraud.

As others have said, they kept attempting to remake Wrath of Khan because it's the simplest plot in a Star Trek movie when you boil it down to "some guy wants revenge on the Federation." However, by focusing on the revenge part, they ignored everything else that made Wrath of Khan great: Kirk's midlife crisis, his relationship with Carol and David, his never facing the no-win scenario (which related to TOS), Spock's sacrifice for the greater good, and even the ramifications of the Genesis project. It was also neat to return to a plot point from the TV show and tell a sequel story to it, and I don't think they could have picked better than Space Seed. The other movies were just cheap action schlock in space, in comparison.

Considering who has their hands on Star Trek nowadays, even if we do somehow see another Trek movie in the future, I wouldn't expect to see anything but more Khan rehashes. They don't know how and don't care to produce thought-provoking sci-fi, they just want to put a bunch of ships on screen and make things blow up in a seizure-inducing space battle.

What's intriguing is how modern writers take the wrong ideas from something like 'Wrath of Khan'

What the general lesson should have been:

Khan is a retelling of Moby Dick, with added universal gravitas to the ideas of aging, family etc etc...

You can take another concept and reimagine it with Star Trek..

Don't do a revenge story, do a fucking buddy cop movie for all I care...

I mean Meyer even reinforces the lesson with making 'Undiscovered Country' a goddamn murder mystery....

Anything but carbon copying the same genre structure over and over again...

What I really feel Trek needs now, is not an action movie. But, something that elicits a sense of awe...

 

[ditto]

I mean Meyer even reinforces the lesson with making 'Undiscovered Country' a goddamn murder mystery....

and First Contact a zombie / horror movie.

 

[Ihavetinyweewee]

and First Contact a zombie / horror movie.

I didn't like that movie, but that was on the right track.

Voyage Home is essentially a comedy road movie too...

The biggest wasted TNG feature concept was a movie dealing with Picard/Q. You could do some crazy things with that premise...

 

[Honka Honka Burning Love]

I didn't like that movie, but that was on the right track.

Voyage Home is essentially a comedy road movie too...

The biggest wasted TNG feature concept was a movie dealing with Picard/Q. You could do some crazy things with that premise...

Outside of Q just showing up to fuck with Picard because Q is a dick I don't think there is a good place for Q to go. All Good things basically ended that plot, Picard proved that Humanity does indeed grow and solved the problem that Q put up to him.

Though I think one episode of Q showing up, and trolling Picard with the concept that "His disease is making Q appear in his head and it is not really Q." because Q would fucking do that.

Unless you are going to some really awful cheesy "Picard is chosen to join the Q because he is WORTHY!" tm

 

[Ihavetinyweewee]

Outside of Q just showing up to fuck with Picard because Q is a dick I don't think there is a good place for Q to go. All Good things basically ended that plot, Picard proved that Humanity does indeed grow and solved the problem that Q put up to him.

Though I think one episode of Q showing up, and trolling Picard with the concept that "His disease is making Q appear in his head and it is not really Q." because Q would fucking do that.

Unless you are going to some really awful cheesy "Picard is chosen to join the Q because he is WORTHY!" tm

I don't know, you could do some cataclysmic event where the universe is unraveling based on Q's actions. So, he turns to Picard for help and away we go...

You could go some grandiose cosmic mysticism route if you wanted...

 

[Flexo]

I don't know, you could do some cataclysmic event where the universe is unraveling based on Q's actions. So, he turns to Picard for help and away we go...

You could go some grandiose cosmic mysticism route if you wanted...

Besides the q continuum books I already posted, there's also I, Q written by John deLancie himself.

 

[Zemporer]

Well you made me do it...

Someone did.

https://memory-beta.fandom.com/wiki/The_Q_Continuum

It's literally all in there, and yes the "god" at the center of the galaxy is related to what's trapped outside of the galaxy (and why there's a barrier at both places).



*points above* Don't me sperg on out the details now unless you're prepared.

Now you have my interest. So the question is... are the Q Continuum books any good? I've only read a few TNG books, and I've enjoyed them, but I'm sure there are duds lurking about.

I always wanted to read the one where Q and Trelane are tied together.

 

[Flexo]

Now you have my interest. So the question is... are the Q Continuum books any good? I've only read a few TNG books, and I've enjoyed them, but I'm sure there are duds lurking about.

I always wanted to read the one where Q and Trelane are tied together.

What's your grade for good?

I found them very entertaining and they did take advantage of the novel format to depict things and events which would never ever be possible in movies/tv.

But they are heavy on fanservice too.

Spoiler: example from Trelane book

So Q-squared - besides using Q and Treland - involves 3 universes of TNG.

1. The normal one from the show.
2. The version of TNG from Yesterday's Enterprise.
3. A whole new version of TNG invented by author Peter David.

And part of the fun of #3 is seeing which characters end up where so I won't spoil it. But if you like the idea of a story where you get to see "what if" for various characters from TNG, then you'd definitely enjoy it.

Quick over view of the others:

Q Continuum - Pure Trek lore fanservice. Picard & Q go an examine Q's past while all the various entities over the series are tied together and explained - including Trek 5. If you're OCD about the continuity, you'll love this series.
I, Q - Q takes Picard and Data with him to try and stop the end of the Universe. This one could maybe be turned into a film as it's more of an examination of philosophy and stuff. (would have been a better film than Nemsis) Remember Death Wish where the Q Continuum is a road in the desert? Yeah, a lot more of that kind of thing.

I can also heartily recommend "The Q Gambit" as it's just a comic arc where Q shows up to mess with the JJ Enterprise crew. Again, huge on fanservice but then I don't mind Q tormenting Pine!Kirk & company. However there are some times it overlaps in plot with stories mentioned above.

 

[RumblyTumbly]

First Contact is the most watchable and competent of the TNG films, but its really baffling to me that with the war with the Dominion going on in DS9 that we never got a Dominion story for the TNG crew. I mean the Dominion War was pretty big...where was the Enterprise during all of this?!

FC also makes little sense considering the Borg's standing as a major threat to the Federation had taken a nosedive in the later seasons of TNG.

 

[Zemporer]

What's your grade for good?

I found them very entertaining and they did take advantage of the novel format to depict things and events which would never ever be possible in movies/tv.

But they are heavy on fanservice too.

Entertaining is all I ask if I'm going to sink the time into a book (good writing, too, but I'm not greedy).

A few years back when I was justifying the purchase of a Kindle, I thought the old Pocket Books Star Trek novels would be perfect to read as e-books.

I'll check them out. Thanks.