Containment Official Decision Regarding Gender and Chris/Gender Discussion Megathread

[Stress Sigh]

Seen all this coming years ago. Back then it was just a joke thinking he'd go like Bill in King of the Hill.

He made himself into a sweetheart from the ground-up.

The real fun is figuring out for sure what caused this and where it'll go from here. As said it could be a way to cope with failing the lovequest and Chris not meeting the criteria of what twisted image a man is supposed to be to Chris. It could be argued that Chris in some way always wanted to be a girl on some level isn't there a picture of him posing with someone dressed as Barbie somewhere?

 

[Wulfgar Von Heltzer]

Semi-related thoughts on the subject of trans:

Spoiler

Personally, I'm not even yet convinced that gender dysphoria is a real thing. As far as I'm aware, "research" was done that showed people who felt like they were mentally the opposite gender had brains that were more similar to their identified sex, but even that doesn't prove they're men in a woman's body or women in a man's body. It could really just mean exactly what it says, that they're brains are more similar to their opposite biological sex.

That and I don't even understand why trannies care about feeling in the "wrong" body. Because, personally, if I woke up tommorow as a healthy woman, I wouldn't care as long as I was at least still healthy and looked decent. Tho men and women don't always have the exact same life experiences, I don't believe there's anything so severely different between men and women that I would care which gender I am. As long as I can still do the things I enjoy, why would I care?

So I don't understand why these "trans" individuals are so upset over being in the "wrong" body that they're willing to permanently mutilate themselves and pump their bodies with hormones to not even truly become the biological sex they want to be. Why can't you just be happy with who you are? Why is being in the "right" gender so important to you? What impact on your life would becoming your desired sex be? Unless you see you define yourself by your gender, instead of your personality (which you shouldn't, your personality is what makes you who you are), than I just don't get it.

Anyway back to Chris.

Whether or not gender dysphoria, I honestly don't believe for a second he has it. I think he came out way too late did he not? Why would he only feel like he's in the wrong body so late into his life? He was already a grown adult I believe when he started, I'm pretty sure he'd feel like a girl in a boy's body much earlier on, if he actually had gender dysphoria.

That combined with his hatred of his own gender (obviously based on jealously of other men getting "sweethearts" when he can't), and, as I recall, but correct me if I'm remembering wrong, him using his "trans" status to try and pick up girls, I honestly believe this has something to do with either his hatred of his own sex, and or it's another idiotic ploy to get china.

So I'm going to keep calling him a guy, because, legitimacy of gender dysphoria or not, I truly believe he doesn't have it. That and I think people should be allowed to refer to "trans" people as their true biological gender if they don't believe they're legitimately trans.

 

[EI 903]

Personally, I'm not even yet convinced that gender dysphoria is a real thing. As far as I'm aware, "research" was done that showed people who felt like they were mentally the opposite gender had brains that were more similar to their identified sex, but even that doesn't prove they're men in a woman's body or women in a man's body. It could really just mean exactly what it says, that they're brains are more similar to their opposite biological sex.

That and I don't even understand why trannies care about feeling in the "wrong" body. Because, personally, if I woke up tommorow as a healthy woman, I wouldn't care as long as I was at least still healthy and looked decent. Tho men and women don't always have the exact same life experiences, I don't believe there's anything so severely different between men and women that I would care which gender I am. As long as I can still do the things I enjoy, why would I care?

So I don't understand why these "trans" individuals are so upset over being in the "wrong" body that they're willing to permanently mutilate themselves and pump their bodies with hormones to not even truly become the biological sex they want to be. Why can't you just be happy with who you are? Why is being in the "right" gender so important to you? What impact on your life would becoming your desired sex be? Unless you see you define yourself by your gender, instead of your personality (which you shouldn't, your personality is what makes you who you are), than I just don't get it.

But anyway, back to Chris. Whether or not gender dysphoria, I honestly don't believe for a second he has it. I think he came out way too late did he not? Why would he only feel like he's in the wrong body so late into his life? He was already a grown adult I believe when he started, I'm pretty sure he'd feel like a girl in a boy's body much earlier on, if he actually had gender dysphoria.

That combined with his hatred of his own gender (obviously based on jealously of other men getting "sweethearts" when he can't), and, as I recall, but correct me if I'm remembering wrong, him using his "trans" status to try and pick up girls, I honestly believe this has something to do with either his hatred of his own sex, and or it's another idiotic ploy to get china.

So I'm going to keep calling him a guy, because, legitimacy of gender dysphoria or not, I truly believe he doesn't have it. People should be allowed to refer to "trans" people as their true biological gender if they don't believe they're legitimately trans.

The first half of this has nothing to do with Chris. If you want to separate it into its own thread, it should go in Deep Thoughts.

 

[Wulfgar Von Heltzer]

The first half of this has nothing to do with Chris. If you want to separate it into its own thread, it should go in Deep Thoughts.

I decided to just spoiler the non-Chris relevant part.

 

[CatParty]

Semi-related thoughts on the subject of trans:

Spoiler

Personally, I'm not even yet convinced that gender dysphoria is a real thing. As far as I'm aware, "research" was done that showed people who felt like they were mentally the opposite gender had brains that were more similar to their identified sex, but even that doesn't prove they're men in a woman's body or women in a man's body. It could really just mean exactly what it says, that they're brains are more similar to their opposite biological sex.

That and I don't even understand why trannies care about feeling in the "wrong" body. Because, personally, if I woke up tommorow as a healthy woman, I wouldn't care as long as I was at least still healthy and looked decent. Tho men and women don't always have the exact same life experiences, I don't believe there's anything so severely different between men and women that I would care which gender I am. As long as I can still do the things I enjoy, why would I care?

So I don't understand why these "trans" individuals are so upset over being in the "wrong" body that they're willing to permanently mutilate themselves and pump their bodies with hormones to not even truly become the biological sex they want to be. Why can't you just be happy with who you are? Why is being in the "right" gender so important to you? What impact on your life would becoming your desired sex be? Unless you see you define yourself by your gender, instead of your personality (which you shouldn't, your personality is what makes you who you are), than I just don't get it.

Anyway back to Chris.

Whether or not gender dysphoria, I honestly don't believe for a second he has it. I think he came out way too late did he not? Why would he only feel like he's in the wrong body so late into his life? He was already a grown adult I believe when he started, I'm pretty sure he'd feel like a girl in a boy's body much earlier on, if he actually had gender dysphoria.

That combined with his hatred of his own gender (obviously based on jealously of other men getting "sweethearts" when he can't), and, as I recall, but correct me if I'm remembering wrong, him using his "trans" status to try and pick up girls, I honestly believe this has something to do with either his hatred of his own sex, and or it's another idiotic ploy to get china.

So I'm going to keep calling him a guy, because, legitimacy of gender dysphoria or not, I truly believe he doesn't have it. People should be allowed to refer to "trans" people as their true biological gender if they don't believe they're legitimately trans.

Rapejoke.jpg

 

[Pickle Inspector]

But anyway, back to Chris. Whether or not gender dysphoria, I honestly don't believe for a second he has it. I think he came out way too late did he not? Why would he only feel like he's in the wrong body so late into his life? He was already a grown adult I believe when he started, I'm pretty sure he'd feel like a girl in a boy's body much earlier on, if he actually had gender dysphoria.

That combined with his hatred of his own gender (obviously based on jealously of other men getting "sweethearts" when he can't), and, as I recall, but correct me if I'm remembering wrong, him using his "trans" status to try and pick up girls, I honestly believe this has something to do with either his hatred of his own sex, and or it's another idiotic ploy to get china.

So I'm going to keep calling him a guy, because, legitimacy of gender dysphoria or not, I truly believe he doesn't have it. People should be allowed to refer to "trans" people as their true biological gender if they don't believe they're legitimately trans.

While I agree with you about Chris for the most part in regards to "Why would he only feel like he's in the wrong body so late into his life? " he seems to be incredibly stunted maturity wise, he didn't even consider dating until he had an epiphany about it in college at the age of 21 so it makes sense he'd have personal realizations later than the average person.

 

[Atlas 95]

Why would he only feel like he's in the wrong body so late into his life?

He's been exhibiting signs for a long time: he said wearing his mum's underwear in that one pic felt very comfortable, his interest in brushing MLP figures speaks to an interest in feminine interests (remember, this was long before bronies), he's always gotten on better with women and he absolutely despises other men, hell he even said he hates his own dick before the tomboy thing started
It wasn't until comparatively recently he learned the words to use to express what he felt about his body and his identity. Combined with his stunted development as @Pickle Inspector pointed out, it took him a while to come to the realization he was transgender

 

[Lurkingjay]

Remember, too, that Chris was raised in a fairly conservative southern household where, for all his parents let slide, they also placed a lot of emphasis on being "normal"; the Chandlers' emphasis on mainstreaming Chris meant that most of his identity was tied up in the concept of overcoming his autism to be normal, and during the Love Quest, look how much effort he put in to establish himself as STRAIGHT!!. Most of his upbringing was also colored by the media he took in, during a period where trans characters were treated as grotesque punchlines when they were even present at all. (I don't think it's a coincidence that Chris's increase in feminine identity correlated with an increasing number of sympathetic depictions of trans people in media.) On top of that, it isn't unusual even for neurotypical, developmentally healthy trans people to take a while to process their identities. Combine that difficulty with Chris's own developmental issues and focus on normalcy, and it's not a huge surprise that it took him this long to decide on this.

 

[lucidfox]

Whether or not gender dysphoria, I honestly don't believe for a second he has it. I think he came out way too late did he not? Why would he only feel like he's in the wrong body so late into his life? He was already a grown adult I believe when he started, I'm pretty sure he'd feel like a girl in a boy's body much earlier on, if he actually had gender dysphoria.

Because - shock, horror! - some trans people do realize it only at a later age. Ages of around 20, 30, or more are not unheard of. The notion that all trans people awaken in their youth is an inaccurate stereotype perpetrated in the past by misreporting (back when it was a choice between either lying and providing the doctor with the "right" answers, or not getting treatment at all).

(I'm leaving aside the question whether or not Chris is indeed trans.)

 

[TranLord]

Whether or not gender dysphoria, I honestly don't believe for a second he has it. I think he came out way too late did he not? Why would he only feel like he's in the wrong body so late into his life? He was already a grown adult I believe when he started, I'm pretty sure he'd feel like a girl in a boy's body much earlier on, if he actually had gender dysphoria.

i only realised around 16 years old, and thats pretty average. the reason its so low is because of the internet - if the internet wasnt around, i wouldnt have had the access to the information i needed to come to that conclusion. i've always knew something was wrong, but didnt know what.

not everyone fits the "sooper gender non-conforming/refuse to do typically birth-gendered things/mutilating my genitals/insisting to everyone i was the opposite gender since i was 6 months old" (aka the TruTrans story people still have to spout to actually get treatment) narrative, and with chris' lack of exposure to decent representation, and general slowness, i can accept that she took a while to piece things together.

i could be wrong, but hey whatever its the internet.

 

[Stress Sigh]

I still think it's some weird round about way for Chris to in someway finally have his obsession. Though there has been clues that Chris was never really sure in his sexuality considering him saying he feels uneasy see vaguely phalic things and is bothered by men not wearing shirts not to mention the Sailor Moon poster or how we never really heard what he likes in a woman other than "Boobies and vaginas". It's hard to gauge what Chris is gender or sexuality wise due to first we need to filter through what is Chris suppressing latent urges or what he oddly believes everyone else does. To Chris the cigar is not a cigar its what you would get if you had the word "cigar" translated 5 or 10 times in crappy web translator.

 

[AppleChrisp]

Well we know that we are products of our experiences. Since it has taken Chris longer than the average person to develop (ex: someone mentioned wanting to date when he was 21), it makes sense that his gender identity would also have taken longer to develop. In the meantime, he had all sorts of experiences that influenced this development. He grew to hate males, so why would he want to identify as something he hates? I do believe that the majority of trans cases are biologically based and will be present at birth based on what we know about fetal development and the effect of hormones. But because the brain is so plastic, it is possible to develop gender confusion based on experiences. These brain changes can be just as powerful as being born transsexual. He has found acceptance in the transsexual community as well (allegedly) so this would only solidify in his mind that he is doing the right thing. There are cases in psychology of people who "become" gay due to finding acceptance in a certain group. It's a real thing that doesn't get acknowledged much because honestly it is still seen as controversial. But the reality is that just because someone may "become" gay doesn't mean that they somehow are "less gay" than people who were born gay (or transexual). They should be treated exactly the same because their feelings are the same, and it doesn't make them any less of a person. The fact that Chris went so far as to disobey Barb is a huge indicator that this is something that is truly important to him.

 

[Delicious Stickmeat]

i only realised around 16 years old, and thats pretty average. the reason its so low is because of the internet - if the internet wasnt around, i wouldnt have had the access to the information i needed to come to that conclusion. i've always knew something was wrong, but didnt know what.

not everyone fits the "sooper gender non-conforming/refuse to do typically birth-gendered things/mutilating my genitals/insisting to everyone i was the opposite gender since i was 6 months old" (aka the TruTrans story people still have to spout to actually get treatment) narrative, and with chris' lack of exposure to decent representation, and general slowness, i can accept that she took a while to piece things together.

i could be wrong, but hey whatever its the internet.

The thing Chris needs more than anything else is a decent "role model" when it comes to these gender issues. The best would be a sex therapist who has had experience treating transgender patients. Sadly, I don't think Chris will be accessing any of that sort of care any time soon.

It seems like, overall, Chris is basing what he knows about being trans around, suprise suprise, '90s era television shows and movies. It's damn hard to make any sort of call on the legitimacy of the whole trans thing, when Chris is basically acting like an awful stereotype. The most depressing bit to me is the chance that Chris is trans. He/She just has this dim view of the entire concept of transgender, and he/she is just flailing around with it. I wish there was a person out there willing and able to drill through the famous pigheadedness, and impart some knowledge.

 

[Wulfgar Von Heltzer]

Now I get what you guys are saying that about how his stunted development and how he was raised may have resulted in his late coming out, but isn't sufficient reason to believe he has gender dysphoria (if that even truly exists and isn't just mental illness, having a brain similar to the opposite biological sex=/= being a man trapped in a woman's body or vise versa, if anything, it sounds more likely to me that you're a more effeminate man or a more masculine girl).

Unless he gets serious, legitimate psychological treatment, it is impossible to make any conclusions, whether he has gender dysphoria, is mentally ill, or is faking being trans for some ulterior motivation. I personally believe that we shouldn't legitimize his "trans" status until he's been properly diagnosed, and we should DEFINITELY not encourage him to go all the way with it (hormones/surgery), regardless of diagnosis. He needs to be properly diagnosed, made sure that he is of a rational-enough mind to make the conscious decision to pursue hormones and or surgery (which I think is safe to say he isn't, he obviously has some sort of serious mental illness outside of autism), and given that, if he is deemed mentally-stable enough, he should make the choice HIMSELF, and made FULLY aware of the potential consequences of doing before going ahead with it.

Whatever the case I'm quite confident that no legitimate mental health professional would diagnose him as mentally-fit to take hormones and or have the surgery. I'm 99.99% positive that this is either a mental illness, or it's just a ruse. Considering his history, I think it could be both.

 

[timtommy]

This board is not for Chris. He doesn't seem to read it too carefully, and if he does, he isn't particularly affected by it, except to get angry about certain things.

Your decision about pronouns, etc. should be more influenced by what other board members want.

Will transgendered members or those really keen on LGBT rights get offended if you don't respect his decision and call him male? Or alternatively, will they feel like calling him female lumps his nonsense in with whatever they go through?

Will you get called a white-knight if you use her? Will you get called a-log if you use him?

After several months, the consensus answer to all of these questions is no. People here don't really give a shit what pronoun other posters use. Chris doesn't seem to give a shit either.

 

[Wulfgar Von Heltzer]

I'm curious as to what's so dumb about my opinions on trans. I mean, heaven-forbid I just don't believe it's a good idea to treat anyone saying they "feel" like they're something they biologically are not as if they're feelings are legitimate. Because it's not like that's a dangerous slippery slope into legitimizing shit like otherkin.

Or that I just can't understand why someone would put so much of importance into their gender when it's not have any serious impact on their enjoyment in life.

Or thinking that someone shouldn't be encouraged into doing something that they cannot take back and might kill themselves over later on (cutting their genitals off, rendering sexual enjoyment impossible).

But obviously I'm stupid for thinking that. Did you guys accidentally miss Tumblr on your way here?

 

[CatParty]

i think ya'll just missed it where chris cares less about the pronouns than the people in this thread

https://kiwifarms.net/threads/sept-2014-chris-answers-name-change-and-pronoun-questions.9012/

 

[Delicious Stickmeat]

I'm curious as to what's so dumb about my opinions on trans. I mean, heaven-forbid I just don't believe it's a good idea to treat anyone saying they "feel" like they're something they biologically are not as if they're feelings are legitimate. Because it's not like that's a dangerous slippery slope into legitimizing shit like otherkin.

Or that I just can't understand why someone would put so much of importance into their gender when it's not have any serious impact on their enjoyment in life.

Or thinking that someone shouldn't be encouraged into doing something that they cannot take back and might kill themselves over later on (cutting their genitals off, rendering sexual enjoyment impossible).

But obviously I'm stupid for thinking that. Did you guys accidentally miss Tumblr on your way here?

I'll give you my perspective on it, from the other side of the fence.

For most normal, non-lolcow trans people, there's a lot more to it than just "feeling" like you're the wrong gender. It hits at a very deep, visceral level that's very hard to explain. The easiest way for me to phrase it for a non-trans person is to imagine you suddenly start growing secondary sex characteristics during puberty. Tits and hips if you're a dude, facial hair and a deep voice for the ladies. Now, imagine everyone around you saying "Ohh just be happy with what you have, quit complaining." None of THEM are going through what you're going through, you can't really put words to it, but you know it's utterly wrong. That's what being trans is like.

As for the treatment process, I can guarantee you that the standards of care used by the vast majority of care providers very aptly weeds out the otherkin styled people. It's years and years of intense psychotherapy and counseling before you even take some of the first steps, and it continues all through the process. In order to be approved for hormonal and surgical interventions, a PhD level provider who isn't involved in your care pretty much has to sign off and say "Nope, this isn't being caused by any other mental condition, and it's so severe that the patient's quality of life is substantially impacted."

Prime reason why you see so many lolcow trannys bitching about "the system". The medical system is working, and screening those people away from actual transition. It's not what they want to hear, so bitching ensues.

 

[AnOminous]

Prime reason why you see so many lolcow trannys bitching about "the system". The medical system is working, and screening those people away from actual transition. It's not what they want to hear, so bitching ensues.

I think more of them just actually don't want to do anything irreversible, because they're just in it because it's this week's fashion.

In their tiny, shriveled little hearts, they know they're full of shit, so they rail against the medical model that basically says they're phonies.

A few people get dragged into it and end up delusional from groupthink and then, for whatever reason, do get turned away by the gatekeepers. Correctly, because if a doctor gives someone an irreversible surgery that they turn out regretting, guess who gets sued?

Actually being TG is pretty uncommon, probably well less than a fraction of a percent. It isn't something that somehow you magically turn into the moment you get a tumblr account, although tumblrinas seem to think this.

 

[Wulfgar Von Heltzer]

I'll give you my perspective on it, from the other side of the fence.

For most normal, non-lolcow trans people, there's a lot more to it than just "feeling" like you're the wrong gender. It hits at a very deep, visceral level that's very hard to explain. The easiest way for me to phrase it for a non-trans person is to imagine you suddenly start growing secondary sex characteristics during puberty. Tits and hips if you're a dude, facial hair and a deep voice for the ladies. Now, imagine everyone around you saying "Ohh just be happy with what you have, quit complaining." None of THEM are going through what you're going through, you can't really put words to it, but you know it's utterly wrong. That's what being trans is like.

As for the treatment process, I can guarantee you that the standards of care used by the vast majority of care providers very aptly weeds out the otherkin styled people. It's years and years of intense psychotherapy and counseling before you even take some of the first steps, and it continues all through the process. In order to be approved for hormonal and surgical interventions, a PhD level provider who isn't involved in your care pretty much has to sign off and say "Nope, this isn't being caused by any other mental condition, and it's so severe that the patient's quality of life is substantially impacted."

Prime reason why you see so many lolcow trannys bitching about "the system". The medical system is working, and screening those people away from actual transition. It's not what they want to hear, so bitching ensues.

Lots of text:

Spoiler

Yes well, I get what you're saying, but I just can't see being born in the wrong gender as being so horribly wrong that it's impossible to simply accept it, you can't really change it. I just can't see what impact getting surgery and taking hormones to make yourself more akin to your desired gender would have on your life.

Like I'm just not convinced that there's no way you could possibly learn to just be happy with what you were born as, no matter how wrong it may feel. I'm not trying to be dismissive, I just don't get it. I don't believe the process should be "oh, this isn't being caused by any other mental disorder so because of that and the fact that this person feels like this is really important to their lives we should just go straight into the transition", is there not some sort of option to try and counsel the individual into learning to just accept it? Because that should be happening.

Of course, we have to consider the fact that surgeries, as far as I understand, cost quite a lot of money, along with hormones, so it's no surprise to me that doctors would encourage the transition. There's quite a lot of money to be made out of it. Which is pretty fucked up, actually. I also heard they don't tell trans people of the suicide rates of those who transition, because it could discourage them from getting the surgery.

So yeah I don't think you should trust that they doctors have your best interests in mind, they're a business at the end of the day, and they make money off of the surgeries and hormones therapy. Yeah I get that they're doctors, so you'd expect them to know what the fuck they're doing and be honest with you, they're a business, they want to make money, that hast to be kept in mind. I'm not saying they're wrong, I'm just saying it's more profitable to them to encourage you to get surgery and hormone therapy, then to convince you to just accept your body the way it is.

What should be happening, if it isn't already, is every reasonable action should be taken to get people who say they're trans to be content with not physically being the gender that they feel (or think they feel) that they are deep down. If it is truly impossible for certain people (which I don't believe) , then I guess yeah, the only option is to go through with the transition, but I just cannot see it as being something so important that you need to pay several thousands of dollars mutilate your genitals and take hormones, to not even truly become the gender that you feel you are.

And at the same time, I and others should not be forced to refer to an person who claims they're trans as what gender they "feel" they are, if we don't believe that transgenderism is a real thing, or a healthy idea to legitimize (certainly not, lest we go down the slippery slope of legitimizing other unproven things like otherkin). If you and people like Chris can't handle being "misgendered", than well that's unfortunate, but I'm not going to legitimize something I don't have sufficient reason to believe is real. I refuse to go down that slippery slope into potential madness.

And to be fair in regards to that September message from Chris, it was several months ago, he may have changed his mind since then, not that it has any impact on what I choose to refer to him as.