The Last of Us Franchise - Because it's apparently a franchise now. This thread has been double-DMCA’d by Sony Interactive Entertainment.

So rewatching this trailer. I THINK chronologically this occurs before Abby kills Joel since Lev doesn't know who she is, but gameplay-wise, this is shown AFTER Abby has already killed him. So most players would be rooting for Abby to die here.

Edit: Oh the comments. Remember two years ago when people thought this was Ellie's mom? And Abby actually looked feminine? Good times.

 
If this plot wasn't bad enough, now we find out Abby took revenge after Joel saved her life? And it doesn't even sound like she hesitated for a second. No, "hey maybe this guy isn't so bad after all" moments where she at least looks concerned?

Two hours into this bleak story, and the plot is literally that saving someone's life got Joel killed.

I'm laughing that Joel saves Abby's life and then Abby kills him. That's what a VILLAIN does. Like no joke, when you write villains, that's what they do. You have this tragic encounter where a good hearted friend or mentor or lover to the protagonist saves the villain without knowing, and then the villain up and kills them because their goals were selfish and more important than what the selfless person does. Its usually done to build tension where someone the protagonist knows encounters the antagonist, but the person who they're conversing with doesn't know they're the antagonist and the audience is on the edge of their seat because this vulnerable person is in the room with the bad guy and they don't know what's going to happen.

You don't have the antagonist KILL that person and then try to feel SORRY for them. The audience will basically go, 'fuck your dad cunt, I hope you die painfully'.

I mean, I am in utter awe of how much worse this is. This is extremely, EXTREMELY basic writing he gets wrong. You do this because it invalidates whatever sympathy you would have for the villain, because you want your audience to unequivocally hate them. You don't then try to make your audience sympathize because IT WILL NOT WORK. I guarantee you it will absolutely fail. It is utterly pointless to get people to try and sympathize with someone after a heinous act.

Does Druckman seriously think people won't resent the ever living fuck out of having to play as this cunt? Why would you even pay for the privilege to do so? Druckman is a fucking moron.
 
I'm laughing that Joel saves Abby's life and then Abby kills him. That's what a VILLAIN does. Like no joke, when you write villains, that's what they do. You have this tragic encounter where a good heated friend or mentor to the protagonist saves the villain without knowing, and then the villain up and kills them because their goals were selfish and more important than what the selfless person does.

I mean, I am in utter awe of how much worse this is. This is extremely, EXTREMELY basic writing he gets wrong. You do this because it invalidates whatever sympathy you would have for the villain, because you want your audience to unequivocally hate them. You don't then try to make your audience sympathize because IT WILL NOT WORK. I guarantee you it will absolutely fail. It is utterly pointless to get people to try and sympathize with someone after a heinous act.

Does Druckman seriously think people won't resent the ever living fuck out of having to play as this cunt? Why would you even pay for the privilege to do so? Druckman is a fucking moron.
No, I think he wanted to just make people miserable since he's a spiteful cunt with a rape and sadism fetish. He only made this game to entertain himself via acting like the petty man he is. He's only panicking now because he realizes this game has an extremely good chance of killing his career permanently and himself being mocked to death.

Seriously, not only do they pull an even more egregious MGS2 with the fake-out, but then they have their equivalent of Raiden kill their version of Snake after the latter helps them no questions asked. He wants his game to be remembered? He'll scream when it's only remembered for killing a company and being the most flagrant example of Sony not giving a shit about laws.
 
Exactly, that's what made it so funny. I thought that's what they were setting up with that. Like, she'd be all "I came this way to take revenge, but now I'm in your debt", but there's nothing like that in there. She literally whips out a shotgun at the first opportunity and brutally kneecaps the guy.

Druckmann is probably delighted though, because my expectations were thoroughly subverted!

I'm laughing that Joel saves Abby's life and then Abby kills him. That's what a VILLAIN does. Like no joke, when you write villains, that's what they do. You have this tragic encounter where a good hearted friend or mentor or lover to the protagonist saves the villain without knowing, and then the villain up and kills them because their goals were selfish and more important than what the selfless person does. Its usually done to build tension where someone the protagonist knows encounters the antagonist, but the person who they're conversing with doesn't know they're the antagonist and the audience is on the edge of their seat because this vulnerable person is in the room with the bad guy and they don't know what's going to happen.

You don't have the antagonist KILL that person and then try to feel SORRY for them. The audience will basically go, 'fuck your dad cunt, I hope you die painfully'.

I mean, I am in utter awe of how much worse this is. This is extremely, EXTREMELY basic writing he gets wrong. You do this because it invalidates whatever sympathy you would have for the villain, because you want your audience to unequivocally hate them. You don't then try to make your audience sympathize because IT WILL NOT WORK. I guarantee you it will absolutely fail. It is utterly pointless to get people to try and sympathize with someone after a heinous act.

Does Druckman seriously think people won't resent the ever living fuck out of having to play as this cunt? Why would you even pay for the privilege to do so? Druckman is a fucking moron.

The weird thing is that you could STILL set up Abby as a "protagonist" here by having her group kill Joel before she gets a chance to tell them that he saved her life and changed her mind or at least "life for a life" or something. Hell, you could still injure the guy and say that you are hurting him but not killing him because Joel saved her.

NOPE.
 
Even this is gonna work against them eventually. I can't help but think back to Mass Effect 3; IGN slobbered all over that game and gave it an extremely high score, but the site itself was plastered in ME3 advertisements which indicated that what we were seeing wasn't really honest reviewing. More importantly was that they gave no mention of the ending, which as we all know caused a massive shitstorm. Surely, someone who beat the game wouldn't give it a 9.5 after witnessing that abortion of an ending.

This situation is interesting though because people already know the ending and Naughty Dog decreed that nobody can discuss the second half of the game, which is where all the really awful parts of the game come into play. At least with Mass Effect 3, everyone was blindsighted by the ending none of the journalists mentioned, but here we have a not-insignificant number of people who know what happens and realize what the outlets are doing. It's gonna be real fun once the game drops and more and more people realize what's happening.
This (in)famous gif came from that little review saga
nXx3i.gif

Still true to this day.
 
The weird thing is that you could STILL set up Abby as a "protagonist" here by having her group kill Joel before she gets a chance to tell them that he saved her life and changed her mind or at least "life for a life" or something. Hell, you could still injure the guy and say that you are hurting him but not killing him because Joel saved her.

NOPE.
If the tragedy was that Abby changed her mind but then her buddies did him in, that'd actually be good. Basic level competence, but good. And then the entire arc is guilt remorse, and possibly a decision to let bygones be bygones after a final rough confrontation with Ellie.
 
I'm laughing that Joel saves Abby's life and then Abby kills him. That's what a VILLAIN does. Like no joke, when you write villains, that's what they do. You have this tragic encounter where a good hearted friend or mentor or lover to the protagonist saves the villain without knowing, and then the villain up and kills them because their goals were selfish and more important than what the selfless person does. Its usually done to build tension where someone the protagonist knows encounters the antagonist, but the person who they're conversing with doesn't know they're the antagonist and the audience is on the edge of their seat because this vulnerable person is in the room with the bad guy and they don't know what's going to happen.

You don't have the antagonist KILL that person and then try to feel SORRY for them. The audience will basically go, 'fuck your dad cunt, I hope you die painfully'.

I mean, I am in utter awe of how much worse this is. This is extremely, EXTREMELY basic writing he gets wrong. You do this because it invalidates whatever sympathy you would have for the villain, because you want your audience to unequivocally hate them. You don't then try to make your audience sympathize because IT WILL NOT WORK. I guarantee you it will absolutely fail. It is utterly pointless to get people to try and sympathize with someone after a heinous act.

Does Druckman seriously think people won't resent the ever living fuck out of having to play as this cunt? Why would you even pay for the privilege to do so? Druckman is a fucking moron.

B-but you don't understand the deep themes and important conversations that the game is starting!
 
If the tragedy was that Abby changed her mind but then her buddies did him in, that'd actually be good. Basic level competence, but good. And then the entire arc is guilt remorse, and possibly a decision to let bygones be bygones after a final rough confrontation with Ellie.

Hell, you could even do the revenge plot then with Abby and Ellie teaming together to stop them because (1) they share a bond over their dead fathers, (2) Abby feeling guilt remorse as you said, and (3) since Abby actually knows who and where these people are it's not just Ellie going in blind; Ellie knows what she's up against AND has a competent non-pregnant partner.

I spent literally 2 minutes thinking of this.
 
No, I think he wanted to just make people miserable since he's a spiteful cunt with a rape and sadism fetish. He's only panicking now because he realizes this game has an extremely good chance of killing his career and himself being mocked to death.

The problem is you can't force people to play as her. You can't force your audience through the rest of the story. Its not like Kojima where he switched out characters, but Snake was alive and you were curious to see where it goes. If I hate it, I can stop playing. Fuck, I can return it or charge it back if I feel like I was swindled.

The weird thing is that you could STILL set up Abby as a "protagonist" here by having her group kill Joel before she gets a chance to tell them that he saved her life and changed her mind or at least "life for a life" or something. Hell, you could still injure the guy and say that you are hurting him but not killing him because Joel saved her.

NOPE.

That's the way it should be written, a TRAGEDY. Joel saves Abby, and she realizes that things are way more complicated and Joel isn't a bad man. Maybe she's been only seeing it from one side. She wants to have an honest discussion with him, because she's built him up as this monster her entire life and sees the man for who he is. Caring father to Ellie, willing to risk his life to save strangers. Maybe he even hints that he knows she might want to kill him, but straight up rescues her anyway. Then her group of Fireflies really doesn't care and tortures and kills Joel. They don't care that he's a good person or saved her life. They just want straight revenge, continue their delusional quest to kill Ellie and don't really care about Abby and use her revenge to their advantage.

Then Abby is just miserable through the entire game, a reluctant antagonist for Ellie. Abby, who realizes her quest for vengeance was one of understanding, which is now forever broken, because she can't even talk with Joel to find out why her father died, even though she no longer wanted to kill him. All that training, that dedication, wasted. There's nothing left for her. Abby's allies just break her. You could basically have her be on a collision course with Ellie even though she doesn't want to be: "This is the path we're set upon. I wish I could change it, I really do. But I can't. Fate is like that sometimes. I've got nothing left in me anymore. If my death will satisfy you, I accept it. I understand it. Part of me even wants it. But I can't just give you my life. Just like your father (Joel) wouldn't want you to give up your life freely, mine wouldn't either. I owe him that much."

Then you can fight and decide if Ellie will kill this poor, broken person or leave her alive, to try and find some meaning in her shattered existence. Abby herself should be a tragic figure. Let her be betrayed by her allies, used to kill an enemy of the Fireflies who wanted to inherit the cause of slicing open Ellie's skull in their delusional quest.

There's a GOOD story here. Druckman is too shit of a writer to find it.

You could also go this route:
Hell, you could even do the revenge plot then with Abby and Ellie teaming together to stop them because (1) they share a bond over their dead fathers, (2) Abby feeling guilt remorse as you said, and (3) since Abby actually knows who and where these people are it's not just Ellie going in blind; Ellie knows what she's up against AND has a competent non-pregnant partner.

I spent literally 2 minutes thinking of this.

Its actually not hard. But Druckman is a fucking idiot and thinks he's smarter than he is.


B-but you don't understand the deep themes and important conversations that the game is starting!

Oh yeah, violence is bad. Real tough message.
 
That's the way it should be written, a TRAGEDY. Joel saves Abby, and she realizes that things are way more complicated and Joel isn't a bad man. Maybe she's been only seeing it from one side. She wants to have an honest discussion with him, because she's built him up as this monster her entire life and sees the man for who he is. Caring father to Ellie, willing to risk his life to save strangers. Maybe he even hints that he knows she might want to kill him, but straight up rescues her anyway. Then her group of Fireflies really doesn't care and tortures and kills Joel. They don't care that he's a good person or saved her life. They just want straight revenge, continue their delusional quest to kill Ellie and don't really care about Abby and use her revenge to their advantage.

Then Abby is just miserable through the entire game, a reluctant antagonist for Ellie. Abby, who realizes her quest for vengeance was one of understanding, which is now forever broken, because she can't even talk with Joel to find out why her father died, even though she no longer wanted to kill him. All that training, that dedication, wasted. There's nothing left for her. Abby's allies just break her. You could basically have her be on a collision course with Ellie even though she doesn't want to be: "This is the path we're set upon. I wish I could change it, I really do. But I can't. Fate is like that sometimes. I've got nothing left in me anymore. If my death will satisfy you, I accept it. I understand it. Part of me even wants it. But I can't just give you my life. Just like your father (Joel) wouldn't want you to give up your life freely, mine wouldn't either. I owe him that much."

Then you can fight and decide if Ellie will kill this poor, broken person or leave her alive, to try and find some meaning in her shattered existence. Abby herself should be a tragic figure. Let her be betrayed by her allies, used to kill an enemy of the Fireflies who wanted to inherit the cause of slicing open Ellie's skull in their delusional quest.

There's a GOOD story here. Druckman is too shit of a writer to find it.
This is a more potent story because not only does it actually provide Abby with depth and a means for the player to feel sympathy for her, but it could also tie back to the first game where it's revealed the experiments were fruitless and they were just killing people. The way the game goes, those subtle details are dropped completely and treat Joel as if he did the wrong thing. What the game should have done is reincorporate those details, add some more punch to Joel's death where he did the right thing and Abby realizes too late that the Fireflies were entirely in the wrong. It would have rewarded curious players who discovered those plot threads and bring more attention to those who missed them the first time around, making more people aware of the complexity of the situation. Instead, those seeds never sprout and the subtle story details amount to jack shit.

But no, we can't have that. We can't create nuance in this situation because that would conflict with the whole "violence and revenge bad" theme Druckmann's going for. We have to show how unnecessarily brutal and uncompromising these people are because otherwise how would the audience ever know that what they're doing is bad?
 

For fuck's sake. Can we just deplore the utter stupidity of this scene for a bit?

Post mushroom zombie apocalypse, refusing to have anything to do with someone on the grounds that they called you a carpet-muncher is a bad idea. Surely survival takes precedence. Surely the right thing to do in those circumstances is accept the apology sandwich and move forwards because she might have to rely on him later for something. Or, in a later scene Ellie might have to pull the Bigot Sandwich's arse out of a sling and that's called "character development." While the Bigot Sandwich might find that his sneering at her for liking women isn't really warranted. That's also called "character development."

But, no. Let's have a girl who grew up entirely during a zombie apocalypse act like a fucking Tumblrina.

*farts* Fuck off game.
 
Hate to burst your bubble, but Joel dies in the first 2 hours. His death is so horribly rushed like Druckman couldn't wait to kill him off. The gameplay that uploaded his death got taken down unfortunately.
Actually the person who was so excited to kill him was Anita (though Neil probably was happy about it too)
In her review for the first game she said that she wanted Joel to die because she hated him and wanted the game to be about ellie alone (because it's so believable to have easy target like Ellie survive by herself at 14)
Fast forward to now and it's pretty clear she's doing that
It's funny because her killing a character she dislikes extremely violently is arguably a weird power fantasy, a thing she bitches about when men do it
 
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