Star Wars Griefing Thread (SPOILERS) - Safety off

I say the story is Nu Wars mainly because of the Ewok technician idea the story proposes, which hails back to when they tried to make them even more toyetic. It doesn't detract from the story though.

It's also telling my brain deleted and ignored Filoni's shitty OC.
 
I know I keep saying this, but when the fuck did Star Wars establish a policy against creating new characters, for God's sake? How 'bout instead of shoehorning Hondo's prune-looking Weequay ass into all SW products known to man, they invent a new space pirate character?

For fuck's sake, when the EU needed a lethal femme fatale character, they didn't just recycle Mara Jade till the end of time, to the point where she was shoved into any and all SW media in existence.

Was KOTOR 2 the only real good deconstruction of Star Wars that was respectful and good? I played through it a bit and really like Kreia and how she sort of was above light and dark side nonsense. Sorry for the derail I just thought of it and was hoping people had a similar experience. Sick of watching Star Wars and media in general burn.
A bit of fanboy bias here, but I felt that NJO also deconstructed the Force and especially the Jedi as a concept, examining how far their idealistic view of the world can be pushed when an enemy that can only be stopped through brutal genocide appears on the threshold of their galaxy. Traitor, Edge of Victory, Destiny's Way, Final Prophecy and Unifying Force have tons of intense debates and hard, emotional monologues on what the nature of the Force really is, and how complete the Jedi Order's understanding of it is.

And this is coming from someone whose first pick for "Star Wars Myth Examination At Its Best" for years was KOTOR II. Still the crowning achievement of the Old Republic era EU, IMO.
 
A bit of fanboy bias here, but I felt that NJO also deconstructed the Force and especially the Jedi as a concept, examining how far their idealistic view of the world can be pushed when an enemy that can only be stopped through brutal genocide appears on the threshold of their galaxy. Traitor, Edge of Victory, Destiny's Way, Final Prophecy and Unifying Force have tons of intense debates and hard, emotional monologues on what the nature of the Force really is, and how complete the Jedi Order's understanding of it is.

And this is coming from someone whose first pick for "Star Wars Myth Examination At Its Best" for years was KOTOR II. Still the crowning achievement of the Old Republic era EU, IMO.
I just think the Force as a concept is both smart and stupid at the same time. Both Jedi and Sith have almost no control over themselves and can fall or destroy themselves at any given moment based on ideology. Grey Jedi made a bit more sense to me but the vast majority of thought about both orders is dumb. The average human is a Sith and their philosophy isn't totally bad or destructive on paper. Jedi and discipline are intertwined and have good stuff as well but are mired in ridiculous roles as shit like space cops or officers in the republic.

Yoda's speech to Luke about the Force in Empire is all it ever really needed to be.
 
I just think the Force as a concept is both smart and stupid at the same time. Both Jedi and Sith have almost no control over themselves and can fall or destroy themselves at any given moment based on ideology. Grey Jedi made a bit more sense to me but the vast majority of thought about both orders is dumb. The average human is a Sith and their philosophy isn't totally bad or destructive on paper. Jedi and discipline are intertwined and have good stuff as well but are mired in ridiculous roles as shit like space cops or officers in the republic.

Yoda's speech to Luke about the Force in Empire is all it ever really needed to be.
That is admittedly more Lucas's fault in making the "Jedi order" such a stringent, regulated and politicized republic organization even before the prequels. They should have been just a bunch of mostly nomadic religious warrior monks roaming the galaxy and trying to do good wherever they went regardless of whether it was against or for the republic. Like the actual Japanese Sohei warrior monks.
 
Alright finished the first half of Revan as well as Unseen Unheard from Star Wars Tales 24. Now onto KOTOR 2. Some notes

Like 1 I will be doing playthroughs: A Darks side run followed by a Light Side Run

I will be playing the female Exile since thats the canon one

I will play the game mainly on the Medium difficulty Unless things get to frustrating then I'll turn it down. Ordinarily I wouldnt but

1. KOTORS Combat system is not my cup of tea.

2. I want to get through my chronological experience of the EU in a reasonable amount of time

I do not have a pc som Im playing the game on the OG Xbox. This means I wont be able to play the Restored Content (I will look up the cut content on youtube after Im done though)
 
I saw this from Charlie Kaufman and he had the same opinion I had about Hollywood going to shit after 2008.

And he nailed it. This sums up Nu Wars and every other franchise right now.
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I know I keep saying this, but when the fuck did Star Wars establish a policy against creating new characters, for God's sake? How 'bout instead of shoehorning Hondo's prune-looking Weequay ass into all SW products known to man, they invent a new space pirate character?

For fuck's sake, when the EU needed a lethal femme fatale character, they didn't just recycle Mara Jade till the end of time, to the point where she was shoved into any and all SW media in existence.


A bit of fanboy bias here, but I felt that NJO also deconstructed the Force and especially the Jedi as a concept, examining how far their idealistic view of the world can be pushed when an enemy that can only be stopped through brutal genocide appears on the threshold of their galaxy. Traitor, Edge of Victory, Destiny's Way, Final Prophecy and Unifying Force have tons of intense debates and hard, emotional monologues on what the nature of the Force really is, and how complete the Jedi Order's understanding of it is.

And this is coming from someone whose first pick for "Star Wars Myth Examination At Its Best" for years was KOTOR II. Still the crowning achievement of the Old Republic era EU, IMO.


Sucks lucasfilm ruined KOTOR II. They rushed its production. Would have loved Obsidian to do TOR instead of Bioware.
 
I just think the Force as a concept is both smart and stupid at the same time. Both Jedi and Sith have almost no control over themselves and can fall or destroy themselves at any given moment based on ideology. Grey Jedi made a bit more sense to me but the vast majority of thought about both orders is dumb. The average human is a Sith and their philosophy isn't totally bad or destructive on paper. Jedi and discipline are intertwined and have good stuff as well but are mired in ridiculous roles as shit like space cops or officers in the republic.

Yoda's speech to Luke about the Force in Empire is all it ever really needed to be.
Well, this is another reason why NJO's deconstruction of the Force is so interesting, because it basically confirms something fairly obvious and logical: that the binary nature of the Force and the ideologies it spawned is something that both Sith and Jedi perceive it to be, not how it is in actuality. The Jedi of the Republic for instance are characterized by jaded former master Vergere as having an incomplete view of the Force, caught up in the paranoia that even relying on emotions like hatred or utilizing abilities like choke or lightning will corrupt one's alignment and swerve them closer to the Dark Side...hence why they forbid it, and strongly encourage even risking one's alignment with Dark Side abilities, or emotional vices like attachment. Vergere reveals that a wielder with a strong enough will and sense of restraint can wield Light and Dark Side abilities, and retain their sense of self. Luke and his Order embrace this in the story arcs to come, to the point where even Luke himself can tap into Dark Side abilities like Force Lightning as a lethal last resort in combat, without risking any alignment hazards.

As for the whole "space cops" thing, well...feel free to disagree with me, but that was always something I found cool about the Jedi, and what made me warm up to the PT Era. It's one of the reasons I loved reading Jedi Apprentice or the Quinlan Vos comics. I love the idea of Jedi being Space Marshals during peacetime...I find that more interesting than simply being a cabal of monks philosophizing all day in remote retreats or archives.

We have offshoot Force Adepts like the Ossus Keepers for that kind of dull crap.

That is admittedly more Lucas's fault in making the "Jedi order" such a stringent, regulated and politicized republic organization even before the prequels. They should have been just a bunch of mostly nomadic religious warrior monks roaming the galaxy and trying to do good wherever they went regardless of whether it was against or for the republic. Like the actual Japanese Sohei warrior monks.
I mean, the Samurai were the primary inspiration for the Jedi Order (the word "jedi" coming from the word "jidaigeki", or "Japanese period piece"), not the Sohei. So it's not all that uncharacteristic to be enveloped in rigid, uncompromising tradition. That's very in line with how the samurai were, historically and in plenty of classic Japanese cinema: an elite warrior class who fancied themselves as spiritually devout and bound by a code of ethics, while simultaneously showcasing ill-advised actions brought about by their own feverish commitment to stifling tradition. I think the Jedi at their most misguided and astray can definitely fit that description, even if they're not necessarily evil for doing so.

More than that, though, it's important to remember that the Jedi we see during the PT don't definitively resemble the Jedi Order in their entirety. The Jedi go through different phases throughout galactic history---as nomadic warriors in the early age, paladins and scholars during the Hyperspace War, neutral to the point of frustrating younger students during the Mandalorian Wars, and even militant during the Great Galactic War. The most effective revision of the Jedi in the eyes of many, including myself, is Luke's New Jedi Order formed in the aftermath of Endor:

Jedi from all walks of life, from mercenaries to royalty, are allowed to train at any age, and engage in a multitude of duties both spiritual and combative. Their role in politics evolve significantly, and their role during war even moreso, but the greatest innovation Luke's Order undergoes is the adoption of a broader approach to the Force, where Jedi at last stop running away from natural impulses like attachment or hatred, and work to understand them...as well as developing abilities like Lightning, while simultaneously confronting the ethics of how and when it's appropriate to use them. Redeeming seemingly irreconcilable enemies is now a feasible and even encouraged alternative as opposed to simply exterminating them, something Luke demonstrates not just with Vader but his dilemma with dealing with the Yuuzhan Vong as well...a mentality that many of the previous revisions of the Jedi Order wouldn't even consider. And most importantly, Jedi can not only marry, but they can have children....because Luke believes that attachment is not inherently a hazard, until someone like Anakin makes it an unhealthy part of their lives.

And thus, Luke creates the definitive revision of the Jedi Order, after centuries of evolution and repeated blunders by his predecessors. Now, this is where some shrieking hipster Disney Drone would cry: "Well, where's the drama in that? Luke and his Jedi Order are perfect, there's no interesting storytelling to be had, REEEEEEEEEEE!!!!" To which, again, the answer is that Luke and his Jedi are still struggling with new internal dilemmas, like how to use the Force or implement their idealogy in turbulent instances like a colonial squabble between two alien races, or nationalistic tensions between two Core World planets that have valid grievances with each other.

From what I hear, they even have to face a reality of a hostile galaxy that hates and rejects the Jedi Order as a concept...but that happens in the Fate Of The Jedi story arc, which I haven't read yet.

Sucks lucasfilm ruined KOTOR II. They rushed its production. Would have loved Obsidian to do TOR instead of Bioware.
I dunno, even in its rushed half-baked state, I thought KOTOR II was amazing. Though I admit that the Content Restoration Mod is essential to experiencing that game's full majesty in this day and age.

As for SWTOR, I still haven't played it. It looks really intriguing, though---and I think I'd probably get some enjoyment out of it, largely because I'll be unaffected by BioWare's narrative handling of Revan and the Exile...two characters who I was never particularly married to.
 
Was KOTOR 2 the only real good deconstruction of Star Wars that was respectful and good? I played through it a bit and really like Kreia and how she sort of was above light and dark side nonsense. Sorry for the derail I just thought of it and was hoping people had a similar experience. Sick of watching Star Wars and media in general burn.

Yes it is.
I don't get the Kreia take at all though. Kreia deconstructs the force and ends up as Darth Treya, again, trying to end all life. What I got from the game was while the Jedi can end up being pompous passive pricks that doom the galaxy the core or what they are saying about the Force and the light side is correct(in universe). You do end up killing her and in canon the Exile ended up on the light side.

A bit of fanboy bias here, but I felt that NJO also deconstructed the Force and especially the Jedi as a concept, examining how far their idealistic view of the world can be pushed when an enemy that can only be stopped through brutal genocide appears on the threshold of their galaxy. Traitor, Edge of Victory, Destiny's Way, Final Prophecy and Unifying Force have tons of intense debates and hard, emotional monologues on what the nature of the Force really is, and how complete the Jedi Order's understanding of it is.

And this is coming from someone whose first pick for "Star Wars Myth Examination At Its Best" for years was KOTOR II. Still the crowning achievement of the Old Republic era EU, IMO.

Imo, NJO failed because of its deconstruction and the nuance it attempted to add to the Force. People tend to forget that in SW there is definitely a "good" side and a "bad" side and while there is nuance and depth to be had in that, bringing in too much of real lifes moral greyness into SW tends to ruins it eventually.

I point to the very next series after NJO completed, think it's Legacy of the Force that essentially went back on all the nuance that NJO brought in, to say that whoever ran their overarching story division decided that level of nuance wasn't good for the universe.
 
Imo, NJO failed because of its deconstruction and the nuance it attempted to add to the Force. People tend to forget that in SW there is definitely a "good" side and a "bad" side and while there is nuance and depth to be had in that, bringing in too much of real lifes moral greyness into SW tends to ruins it eventually.

I point to the very next series after NJO completed, think it's Legacy of the Force that essentially went back on all the nuance that NJO brought in, to say that whoever ran their overarching story division decided that level of nuance wasn't good for the universe.
Well, the very next story arc was Dark Nest, not Legacy Of The Force. And after reading it to completion, I can say that it didn't really undo the nuance that NJO introduced...if anything, it established very firm parameters around the morally grey philosophy that Vergere introduced in NJO. What happens is that Luke becomes enamored with aspects of Vergere's teachings (which isn't helped by the decisive victory the Jedi had over the Yuuzhan Vong), so he decides to implement some of them in his own Order immediately. They start utilizing Dark Side abilities with less uneasiness or reservations, and depend on their emotions a little bit more. But the longer it goes on, the more Luke sees the slow, gradual, negative consequences of adopting Vergere's teachings unconditionally. He sees that the Jedi are going to lose their way and sight of the moral boundaries that separate them from the Sith. He decides that a balance is needed between the rigid traditions of the old Jedi Order, and the boundless moral grey that Vergere believes in. This is part of what motivates him to re-establish a proper Jedi Council, and the hierarchy system of Grandmasters. The story also makes a point of personifying the absolute worst outcome of Vergere's nuanced approach to the Force through Jacen Solo...who takes the "ends justify the means" mentality that Vergere believed in to frightening lengths, using Light Side and Dark Side abilities in tandem to accomplish controversial goals that strain what could be considered morally acceptable.

So the post-Endor EU hasn't abandoned the more nuanced look at the Force from where I'm at in my readings: I think the message is that while Vergere was right about plenty of aspects of the Force, she didn't have all the answers. Which is ironic, considering her accusations of the Jedi believing they had absolute knowledge and understanding of how the Force is used.

I'm still only one and a half books into LOTF, so I can't make any declarative statements, but so far that story arc seems to continue NJO's nuance perfectly, by showcasing the cold, calculating logical conclusion one can reach by adopting Vergere's teachings.It's meant to show that moral greys and less reservation about using the Force doesn't necessarily equate to evil...the victory in NJO's finale was proof of that. But if taken too far, it can detach one from the moral reservations one can and should have as a Jedi. "By any means necessary" is the dangerous and destructive mentality that Jacen Solo is rapidly adopting in the story arc. Removing the nuance would be to declare that everything Jacen and the Jedi accomplished during NJO as wrong or misguided or ineffectual, which LOTF never does (at least, as far as I've read).
 
Well, the very next story arc was Dark Nest, not Legacy Of The Force. And after reading it to completion, I can say that it didn't really undo the nuance that NJO introduced...if anything, it established very firm parameters around the morally grey philosophy that Vergere introduced in NJO. What happens is that Luke becomes enamored with aspects of Vergere's teachings (which isn't helped by the decisive victory the Jedi had over the Yuuzhan Vong), so he decides to implement some of them in his own Order immediately. They start utilizing Dark Side abilities with less uneasiness or reservations, and depend on their emotions a little bit more. But the longer it goes on, the more Luke sees the slow, gradual, negative consequences of adopting Vergere's teachings unconditionally. He sees that the Jedi are going to lose their way and sight of the moral boundaries that separate them from the Sith. He decides that a balance is needed between the rigid traditions of the old Jedi Order, and the boundless moral grey that Vergere believes in. This is part of what motivates him to re-establish a proper Jedi Council, and the hierarchy system of Grandmasters. The story also makes a point of personifying the absolute worst outcome of Vergere's nuanced approach to the Force through Jacen Solo...who takes the "ends justify the means" mentality that Vergere believed in to frightening lengths, using Light Side and Dark Side abilities in tandem to accomplish controversial goals that strain what could be considered morally acceptable.

So the post-Endor EU hasn't abandoned the more nuanced look at the Force from where I'm at in my readings: I think the message is that while Vergere was right about plenty of aspects of the Force, she didn't have all the answers. Which is ironic, considering her accusations of the Jedi believing they had absolute knowledge and understanding of how the Force is used.

I'm still only one and a half books into LOTF, so I can't make any declarative statements, but so far that story arc seems to continue NJO's nuance perfectly, by showcasing the cold, calculating logical conclusion one can reach by adopting Vergere's teachings.It's meant to show that moral greys and less reservation about using the Force doesn't necessarily equate to evil...the victory in NJO's finale was proof of that. But if taken too far, it can detach one from the moral reservations one can and should have as a Jedi. "By any means necessary" is the dangerous and destructive mentality that Jacen Solo is rapidly adopting in the story arc. Removing the nuance would be to declare that everything Jacen and the Jedi accomplished during NJO as wrong or misguided or ineffectual, which LOTF never does (at least, as far as I've read).


I stand corrected. The series that I believe removes or atleast pairs down the NJO nuance is Legacy of the Force not Dark Nest so after you complete it I'll be very interested in where you stand on this. Based on Dark Nest, LotF, and FotJ it definitely came across to me that Luke decided Vergere's teachings weren't the right way for the new order to proceed. Atleast when it came to how the jedi used the Force. It sucks that the next series in line, starting with Crucible, got canceled and the story never got to finish. It was getting really interesting from what I remember.


Edit: Some more is coming back to me now and since I don't want to spoil anything for you I will add that I'll be interested in how you feel about this after reading LotF AND FotJ. NJO was a major shakeup when it came out and not all of the readership was happy with it. So IF the rollback I believe happened is true it happened over several books that encompassed both series. It grows more apparent the farther away from NJO you get.(I think)
 
I usually like Midnight's Edge, but the fact that the source of the rumors is Doomcock is one big :optimistic: .

Yes, the sequels are a mess. Yes, any person with any sort of competence would retcon them several years down the line when this culture war shit winds down. Thing is, what are they going to replace it with? You can talk about canon all day long, most of the normies will just look at the movies as their canon. So what are they going to do? Another trilogy? Carrie Fisher's dead. Good luck in getting Harrison Ford. Mark Hamill may be game but by the time it becomes politically acceptable to retcon the sequels the man's going to make Billy Dee Williams look like a squirrel on meth.

Disney fucked themselves over on this. There's no changing it anymore. They're just going to have to live with their failure.

I dunno, if Disney is desperate enough to admit defeat but not desperate enough to sell off Star Wars outright, I could see them officially declaring the Sequel Trilogy non-canon and then take it out of print/remove it from Disney+

If they really wanted to win back the fans, they'd release the theatrical cuts of the Original Trilogy since they now own Fox and give the Sequel Trilogy the "Song of the South" treatment (or at least The Last Jedi) with the "Carrie Fisher's last role" trivia bit being more or less what "Zip-A-Dee-Doo-Dah" was for Song of the South pre-2020.

If we're still on this topic later I'll make a proper sperg post, but I'm too tired so going to sum this up breifly:
Its not just you getting old. Movies are utter shit now. And its not the woke injections - that's just a symptom. 90% of the movies from the 60's to the 80's had some "diversity is our strength" tier message sideplot about race relations and getting along with the Russians.

The problem is that Hollywood flushed & depowered most of their screenwriters during and after the writers strike, and have been cultivating new fresh from script writing school talent because they've been able to get away with having inexperienced writers & story groups who have no leverage; letting them write about black transexual genderqueer lesbians has been acceptable for them in exchange for giving the studio execs complete control and getting utterly anally destroyed when it comes to negotiating rights and royalties since they have no idea what they should be asking for (and getting).

This is why everything is creatively bankrupt, because almost everything is getting written by no-talent assclowns, overseen by people who don't care about the product, only the money it brings in and (by proxy) the power it brings them.

And they were getting away with it until recently, but they've pushed the envelope too far and China's film industry is starting to catch up.



Feige is running Marvel franchise as a tight ship, but its already starting to leak, some of it due to reasons outside of his control; no matter how good your scripting, no matter how solid your arcs, you can't stop Robert Downey Jr. from creeping inexorably towards 60, and China's native film industry starting to mature in terms of visual effects. The next wave of movies will be interesting to see as people have started to peel off due to fatigue overcoming inertia.

The Writer's Strike, the Great Recession, the rise of Obama, the genesis of Web 2.0/Social Media...a lot of bad shit went down in 2007-2009 now that I look back on it.

Fuck, maybe there is some truth to the "2007 was the year everything went to shit" meme.....
 
I stand corrected. The series that I believe removes or atleast pairs down the NJO nuance is Legacy of the Force not Dark Nest so after you complete it I'll be very interested in where you stand on this. Based on Dark Nest, LotF, and FotJ it definitely came across to me that Luke decided Vergere's teachings weren't the right way for the new order to proceed. Atleast when it came to how the jedi used the Force. It sucks that the next series in line, starting with Crucible, got canceled and the story never got to finish. It was getting really interesting from what I remember.


Edit: Some more is coming back to me now and since I don't want to spoil anything for you I will add that I'll be interested in how you feel about this after reading LotF AND FotJ. NJO was a major shakeup when it came out and not all of the readership was happy with it. So IF the rollback I believe happened is true it happened over several books that encompassed both series. It grows more apparent the farther away from NJO you get.(I think)
I've been preoccupied with other non-Star Wars stuff as of late (including getting into the Witcher franchise, of all things), so I've only just returned to my reading of LOTF with Bloodlines. I'm chewing through it, so I should be posting my impressions in another mega-sperg post like I did with the previous book any day now.

If I'm being honest, the series that I'm most uneasy about is FOTJ. I've heard virtually nothing good about that story arc, even from people who were willing to endure some of the more controversial elements of Dark Nest and NJO. And hearing about what the series entails---Elritch horror, teenage romance, and the return of story threads from the fucking Callista Trilogy of all things---really doesn't fill me with a lot of confidence. The only thing I've seen or heard that's encouraging, childish as it may sound, is that Tahiri is on the cover of one of the books, which gives me a glimmer of hope that she'll have SOMETHING meaningful to do in the remainder of the series before I close out the Legacy era with Crucible.

And really, that ties into my main gripe with the post-NJO Story Arcs like Dark Nest and LOTF so far, which isn't the supposed "destruction of Vergere's nuance" or "betrayal of Jacen's character" that I see bandied everywhere (both of which I think to be utter bullshit). If anything, it's the retarded impulse of the writers to keep introducing new Jedi characters instead of working with the existing ones from NJO and Young Jedi Knights. I mean, for fuck's sake, you have characters like Jaina, Zekk, Tionne, Lowbacca, and Tahiri, and yet the writers keep adding more arbitrary Jedi characters for one-time use, and instant disposal. It's like, motherfuckers, you already HAVE a full roster of Jedi Knights, so make fucking use of them. Just imagine if you were watching the Star Trek TNG movies, and instead of using the original cast, the writers just sideline them in favor of new characters introduced per movie. How fucking infuriating would that be?

Although, I say all of this, and yet I'm certain that if Aaron Alliston had used Tahiri instead of Nelani to facilitate Jacen's dark side turn in the first book, and killed her off instead, I'd probably react by pouring petrol on my EU collection and setting it ablaze....so maybe I shouldn't even be complaining.
 
The Writer's Strike, the Great Recession, the rise of Obama, the genesis of Web 2.0/Social Media...a lot of bad shit went down in 2007-2009 now that I look back on it.

Fuck, maybe there is some truth to the "2007 was the year everything went to shit" meme.....

I like to learn about history, and there is a an issue with intereconnected events stretching out the "when did the era really start?" because of how long it takes for things to spin up and spin down. The 1200's have been called the longest century because events in 1200's have direct ties to things that started as early as the 1140s and had direct repercussions through nearly the entirety of the 1300's. Basically events and intrigues give very little care about our calendar. Usually to summarize an era, you find a key, noteworthy event base things off of that regardless of if the matter wasn't fully resolved for another 100 years; One of the reasons every fucking thing ever in Europe is based off 1066 is William the Conqueror won the battle of Hastings and then had an uninterrupted string of victories curb-stompings through England and quickly brought the country to heel - you can say William's victory at Hastings won him the country even if it took him two more months to secure the crown.
2007 was not the start nor the end of many things, but it was they started to go from background noise to more at the forefront.

tl;dr
the world did end in 2012, its just taking us a while to catch up.




Also Song of the South was made by an ardent anti-racist, which is the best part of the flip out. It is a movie about accepting other races and other social classes but because it has a family of rich carpet baggers having a good relationship with their tenant farmers and vice versa, it has to be memory holed.
 
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My own view is that Vergere (and to a much lesser extent Kriea) was a big attempt to fully embrace the Star Wars setting as a dualistic system. (Aka the whole Grey Jedi nonsense)

That's a very Western idea of good/evil and doesn't really hold up to the Eastern aspects Lucas put in. My personal favorite way Lucas ever explained it was that the force was a lot like a human body. Natural positive and negative biological influences are constantly in flux inside and that's ideal. However, these systems can be corrupted and become negative to such a degree that they can threaten the life of the body itself. Think metastasized cancer. It's fundamentally the bodies own cells and processes perverted and eventually can grow so out of control it will kill. The Bane based Sith were basically cancer of this level.

Vergere and Kriea were very much about subtle seduction. They did have a few good points about the old Jedi Order during the Republic's fall being too dogmatic and unbending but it was wrapped in the worst kinda of moral relativism. Jacen in Dark Nest and Legacy was the ultimate end result of this line of thinking. It's a fundamental seductive philosophy that tempts the user into hell that is paved with good intentions. I give the writers of the time credit for realizing this after the end of The Unifying Force. (It's ultimately understanding why The Living Force is so important.)

I really like Luke's approach during the end part of the Legacy and Fate series. Tradition and moral codes must be willing to be flexible when needed and not so regimented and unmoving they are unable to adapt, or be thrown out the window for the exaltation of the self and fundamental selfishness of the Sith. Ultimately, that they must exist as a mark for the individual to hold themselves to and that you damn well better not keep trying to justify yourself when harder but correct paths exist and you just choose the easy path.

I'm going through a big reread of the NJO/Legacy and I'm going to have to replay Kortor 2 soon. What I've said above only really scratches the surface.
 
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I dunno, even in its rushed half-baked state, I thought KOTOR II was amazing. Though I admit that the Content Restoration Mod is essential to experiencing that game's full majesty in this day and age.

As for SWTOR, I still haven't played it. It looks really intriguing, though---and I think I'd probably get some enjoyment out of it, largely because I'll be unaffected by BioWare's narrative handling of Revan and the Exile...two characters who I was never particularly married to.

It's the only way to play it. The games a half broken mess. But they only restored cut material. The game was only 85% complete.

Eh, its a MMO, I think theres too much grinding.

Yes it is.
I don't get the Kreia take at all though. Kreia deconstructs the force and ends up as Darth Treya, again, trying to end all life. What I got from the game was while the Jedi can end up being pompous passive pricks that doom the galaxy the core or what they are saying about the Force and the light side is correct(in universe). You do end up killing her and in canon the Exile ended up on the light side.

It's that there has to be a Treya and to be the force that either forces your dark side character to save everybody or forces your light side character to not accept the Jedi councils judgment. She's playing a role the force has assigned her while hating the force for forcing her and others to follow its design. She is weak in her inability to turn away from the force as a crutch. That is the beauty she sees in the light side version of you, a future turned away from destiny.

I dunno, if Disney is desperate enough to admit defeat but not desperate enough to sell off Star Wars outright, I could see them officially declaring the Sequel Trilogy non-canon and then take it out of print/remove it from Disney+

If they really wanted to win back the fans, they'd release the theatrical cuts of the Original Trilogy since they now own Fox and give the Sequel Trilogy the "Song of the South" treatment (or at least The Last Jedi) with the "Carrie Fisher's last role" trivia bit being more or less what "Zip-A-Dee-Doo-Dah" was for Song of the South pre-2020.

It's more complicated in that they use Carrie Fisher as a shield. Like the Snyder cut, retconning the Sequel trilogy officially means admitting they made a mistake. Ego won't allow that.

They'll either try to have their cake and eat it or they'll be forced by someone higher up the food chain not tied to the sequels.
 
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I dunno, if Disney is desperate enough to admit defeat but not desperate enough to sell off Star Wars outright, I could see them officially declaring the Sequel Trilogy non-canon and then take it out of print/remove it from Disney+
What I could see Disney doing is distancing themselves from the Sequel Trilogy. Maybe they'll stop mentioning Rey, Finn, etc. altogether while talking more about Luke as he was pre-TLJ. Not so much decanonizing as it would be memory-holing. Then they start to re-integrate stuff from the original EU and maybe do an alternate timeline where Luke is the same character we before Rian and KK got their grubby fingers on him.

That's what I think will happen if Disney does decide to disown the sequels. What I don't see is them outright coming out and saying that the trilogy they just made is non-canon. That's too big a humble-pie for Disney to accept.
 
So I looked back at the view counts for Jedi Temple Challenge and they have shockingly exploded. This usually would make me happy, since it's one of the only good ideas Disney had for Star Wars. But the problem is that this growth is clearly unnatural; the show often struggled to get over 25k views in three days, and episodes 2-4 did not even have 100k views last time I looked, which was on Thursday night.

This is depressing, but a good sign of how fucking poorly they managed their property. No one really cared about this show due to the damage they did to their brand. Now though? They have a million views on the pilot, and over 800k for most of the episodes.

Disney, fucking botnet better. I like the show, but that jump from 10k views for episode 5 to 280k? Fucking artificial as hell, and it's probably to trick investors.
 
Something unsettling occurred to me just now.....

In 2024 it will be 19 years since Revenge of the Sith....

In universe, the original Star Wars took place 19 years after Revenge of the Sith....

Hayden Christensen and (more importantly) Ewan Mcgregor will be old enough to reprise their roles. Alden Ehrenreich in Solo will still look young enough to portray Han Solo....

If my true ultimate nightmare scenario spoken of before of a totally remade original trilogy is to come to pass, then it will almost certainly begin very fucking soon.

And if there is even the slightest fragment of truth to the rumorspeds claims of a wholesale retcon then this shit could be the planned replacement.

EDIT: And I just this second realised that if this is in the cards, the plan would almost certainly be to pull a JJ Trek and have Rey or someone else go back in time to the original trilogy era using that autistic mirror shit and then change the events of the original trilogy to kickstart a nu-nu star wars canon

EDIT 2: fucking hell If this happens they are totally going to un-kill maul and have him show up and fight vader or some retarded shit
 
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