Creative works you enjoyed until politics happened - "How politics made me hate Welcome to Nightvale and other things"

[Banditotron]

Also a lot of the time shitty media just uses politics to try to supplement its shortcomings. Sometimes something just sucks but demands you like it for the beliefs it espouses.

 

[Meat Target]

Also a lot of the time shitty media just uses politics to try to supplement its shortcomings. Sometimes something just sucks but demands you like it for the beliefs it espouses.

Examples? Like WaPo's smarmy "Democracy Dies in Darkness" tagline?

 

[Banditotron]

Examples? Like WaPo's smarmy "Democracy Dies in Darkness" tagline?

Ghostbusters 2016 is a pretty good example. It was boring and uninspiring, but it tried to pretend that the heros having vaginas meant anything. Another example is basically all of Star Trek Discovery. It was a step back in both storytelling and philosophy fun from most other incarnations of trek, and the protagonist is an empty shell, but I'm supposed to like it because it represents the superior future and poc empowerment or something.

 

[Meat Target]

Ghostbusters 2016 is a pretty good example. It was boring and uninspiring, but it tried to pretend that the heros having vaginas meant anything. Another example is basically all of Star Trek Discovery. It was a step back in both storytelling and philosophy fun from most other incarnations of trek, and the protagonist is an empty shell, but I'm supposed to like it because it represents the superior future and poc empowerment or something.

Take comfort in Get Woke Go Broke.

 

[Jonah Hill poster]

For me, it was the first episode of Black-ish, when it was around the time for them to show off more diverse-like storytelling from different cultural backgrounds (Asian-American, Black American, Midwest, you name it).

The first episode was somewhat amusing when the new black family moved into a nice middle-class like neighborhood but they wanted to embrace the African roots so they tried satirizing African culture and thinking that they were pro-black because of it. It seemed like an interesting premise (even if Larry Wilmore and his milquetoast self helped write the episode), but when Trump won the presidency, all of that interest and amusement went completely out the window with constant virtue signaling about BLM and mocking white people for being white while trying to disguise it as “jokes”.

And honestly, it seemed that even in the past, then-regular citizen Donald Trump was on to something:

 

[Red Hood]

I completely agree. The level of nuance and a dilema between lawful good and moral good is I think a hallmark of Green Lantern which is especially prevelant in the current Morrison run. I know Emerald Twilight was controversial, but I think that it was the epitome of what GL is and the Johns retcon actively spoiled this by deflecting the 'blame' for Parallax onto this weird cosmic alien monstrosity. I get why they did it of course - they needed to bring Hal back and having him be responsible for attempted genocide might turn people off him- but it still spoils the narrative. It raises the question of which is more important, the sales of a character and their popularity, or the integrity of the art, and obviously the company would prefer the former. After all, you can't but a genocidal maniac on a Lunchbox.

Elegance is a lost art in modern comic storytelling. The closest you get to a moral grey-zone in the mainstream is Batman, who is frankly very tame these days if you remove all the edgy window dressing. Even Deadpool's been softened since he became popular. The only outlier is the Punisher, but I wouldn't really describe him as A-list in terms of popularity. It's this inhuman black and white outlook that so many people have these days - you must be completely virtuous (but not for religious reasons) and without fault or you're trash. You see it in regards to anyone in a position of power or influence, and it's completely unrealistic.

Batman is unfortunately kind of hamstrung these days by a few things.

First, DC is a slave to the popularity of both Batman and the Joker. So it's only a matter of time before Current Writer is going to try to write their Joker story. And since the Trinity are the only comics that can reliably sell, they also can get away with telling uninteresting stories with weak creative teams.

Second, every new writer seems to want to add a new member to the Bat-Family. It's completely overstuffed at this point. There were already too many ten years ago when Morrison made Damian a fixture, and now every new writer wants to add another vigilante to the mix. Frequently that addition is just there for muh representation and so the writer can get asspats. Oh, Bluebird is bi and has a gay brother. That's not Scott Snyder fishing for woke points or anything... I'm convinced Gotham has more vigilantes than it does police officers at this point.

Since Batman is a cash cow, they're able to get away with having weak writers stringing people along just to pull the rug out from under them (granted this is standard operating procedure throughout comics and has been for a long time). I'm not convinced Tom King has done anything worthwhile in his time at DC. Wasted time with a "Batman's gonna marry Catwoman" arc that went nowhere, then ruined Wally West. You would think a guy whose only real strength was writing about trauma would be able to bring something to a character like Batman. Nope.

Many of these problems also involve editors, but writers are a much easier punching bag.

 

[Doctor Placebo]

Examples? Like WaPo's smarmy "Democracy Dies in Darkness" tagline?

I once read a comment somewhere that "Democracy Dies in Darkness" isn't actually a warning, but a mission statement. Best comeback to WaPo's sanctimonious grandstanding and duplicity I've ever seen.

 

[Slimy Time]

Everything. Literally every program or project is neutered in the name of woke now. It’s so cowardly.
You notice it most when you watch stuff from every just a few years ago. It’s most noticeable on the funnier edgier stuff - can you imagine the reaction to Brass Eye if it was made now? It just wouldn’t happen. But even innocuous stuff has changed. I was round at a friend’s place a while ago and they have young kids who were watching a Mickey Mouse cartoon - it was set in India and both of us remarked that you couldn’t have the images they had in the cartoon nowadays, and wondered when it was from. It was from 2008.
The last ten years have changed media beyond belief. It’s not just jarring diversity (black people in viking villages were not the norm ffs), it’s the total removal of anything that might possibly give offence.
But mild offence is funny, it’s what a huge amount of humour is based on. Riffing on stereotypes can be funny. And it’s not hatred, it’s just the gentle ribbing that used to be funny and friendly. I can’t think of a single current year program I find laugh out loud funny. Not one. It’s dour, puritanical stuff. There’s no real satire any more either, it’s all bludgeoning you over the head with your own guilt or someone’s politics. It’s absolutely shite and I hate it

Months ago I watched Seasons 1 and 2 of House. He's cracking black jokes, women jokes, all sorts of un PC jokes or comments. It's there to show his misanthropic personality, but ultimately, he ends up kinda sorta being right. That would never fly now. He would have to be humiliated in some way, told off by a POC or gay or whatever flavour of protected character of the day.

 

[KiwiFuzz]

I'm a flaming TERF feminist and anything that shows women fighting on equal grounds with men under anything but the most exceptional circumstances loses my interest.

Two examples of this are Star Wars and Game of Thrones.

Star Wars doesn't need my sperging.

Game of Thrones the TV show fucked itself pretty hard, IMHO. Ok, Brienne is a stronk wammen who can swing a heavy sword well enough to fight against the debilitated Jaime, and Ygritte is a wildling who knows how to fight off a rapist and who can use a wildling bow. I will give these women their skills without complaint.

Arya started out wanting to be good with a sword, but her dad got her started with fencing skills and not a broadsword because she's 70 lbs soaking wet in Season 1 and 90 lbs soaking wet in season 8. Physical strength was never her forte, and although she had some agility, that's not a substitute for strength. Her big skill was always going to be craftiness and amorality, and while they used it well in the scene with Walder Frey, it just dissipated at the end. Here's a fucking thought: Why not kill Jaime, take his face, sneak into the palace through the door she discovered in season 1, and kill the fuck out of Cersei during a moment when she's not guarded? Then change into Cersei and surrender the palace to whoever?

Lyanna Mormont throwing in the smug line about training "boys and girls" was supposed to be a big "girl power" moment, but JFC, what's a 70-lb girl really supposed to do in a battle? The best and highest use of a girl in a situation like that is making sure that the men have water and snacks. Carrying messages is also a good use. Congratulations, you're a Dragon Stewardess, now get back in the kitchen and make yourself useful while the men figure shit out.

And the Sand Snakes can eat a dick.

Maybe--just maybe--there weren't a lot of women warriors back in the day not because women were "forbidden from training" or whatever the fuck, but because only a small percent of women are as strong as the average man, and finding and training those women was a waste of time when any random jabroni off the street could beat them.

I blame the troons for a lot of this.

 

[ToroidalBoat]

Post-JJ Star Trek sucks.

 

[Draventren]

I can give a specific example of something that was ruined for me. There was this one track called "Bully for you" by a band called JPNSGRLS (i think they've changed their name now) that I fucking vibed with, never really listened to the lyrics of if since I don't usually get too caught up in them. Wound up reading an article about them, specifically about that song, where the writer of it said that it was, and I'm paraphrasing so I might get a bit of this wrong, "An apology and support from a cis-white-man to the women of the world." And now I can't unhear it when I try listening to the track.

I don't even think that art should necessarily be nonpolitical or nonpartisan, the biggest issue is that there seems to be no big artists, writers, musicians, who want to be subtle about their politics. I'm not sure if it's a result or a cause of how political our art and media have gotten, but so much media is now so disposable. Like, everything is so specifically about one event or one thing that won't really matter in 10 years. Like how many comedy bits, songs, stories, ETC that are just poorly disguised rants about Donald Trump. In 2030 will that still be as poignant as it was before?

None of this is helped by the fact that all the big players in media are such actual racists/sexist/ableist/whatever ist. It was mentioned before about the orks=black thing that's been floating for a few years now. I have never thought of orks as black. I think of them as orks. Honestly, the way I've portrayed them was probably more influenced by Warcraft shit than anything else where they're closer to native americans crossed with middle easterners. The people who are telling us what is and isn't racist are the sort of people who look at orks and say "Filthy, violent, large and athletic, usually criminals...you guys based these on niggers didn't you?!" They're the ones destroying media because of their own issues.

 

[Feline Supremacist]

When my elder cats began passing on from old age and illness I started reading the Warriors series of books which helped me get past my grief. Now I read they wrote one of the female cats as "bi". A cat is not bisexual. It goes through estrus if female and seeks toms out for mating. If you've ever seen a cat in heat that's the only thing on her mind. It does not seek sexual gratification from other females. Unspayed females go into heat, mate, birth kittens and after kittens are weaned do it again. These books are for children/tweens so it's horrible they're pushing this deviancy onto young kids, not to mention it has no basis in feline biology.

 

[Amber the Hedgehog]

To me it's shows with mix race main cast and to lesser degree mix gender main cast. To be clear I don't hate see different races or men and women working together, I just learned that so many creators play favorites. Minorities have be the best, the strongest and the rightest, no matter what. The shows have different standards for them and rarely is this acknowledged within the show. They get act out without being called out, are seen as more moral, are seen as more desireable and so fort. This has gitten show annoying that I get uncomfortable feelings about races and genders before even watching the show that I'm unwilling to try. I know that there good shows out there that don't treat blacks/women/gays as holy, I have seen them but I have also been burned many times. I want to go back when I didn't care about race or gender. Sure I noticed and I even had my preferences but they were mild and in no way prevented me getting into anything. I actually quite liked it as a face blind person I had serious issues keeping up who's who in a live action if the cast wasn't diverse looking enough.

 

[Stasi]

Really liked season 1 of Stranger Things, season 2 had some weird moments but was overall OK. Season 3 I don't what the fuck happened. Maybe the novelty just wore off for me but felt like they were trying to hit you over the head with women good men dumb at the expense of telling a good story with likeable characters.

Black Mirror - maybe not exactly political but what was a neat little sci-fi show like a modern Twilight Zone went off the rails in season 5. We went from interesting concepts and dystopias to "is it gay if you fuck your buddy in VR but he is a woman", "Facebook bad" and what I can only assume is a coded cry for help from Miley Cyrus through the medium of a Netflix show.

 

[AMHOLIO]

I wonder if this is how people who went through the Hay's Code, Comics Code, and 70s children's cartoons experienced what we're feeling right now?

 

[admiral]

First, DC is a slave to the popularity of both Batman and the Joker. So it's only a matter of time before Current Writer is going to try to write their Joker story

The popularity of the Joker is a symptom of a wider problem in comics- which is that they take themselves too seriously. Every writer thinks that their story will be the next Dark Knight Rises or Long Halloween, and with most of the best original and marketable takes on the big characters taken, they decide that just being Really Serious is they key to creating art.

I personally hated the Joker movie. I dislike Joker backstories in general, because I think it wrecks the opposition that Joker has to Batman. Bruce Wayne is defined by his past traumas and is unable to move on from them, wheras historically (with the exception of Killing Joke) the Joker is fully immersed in the present. He has no past, no name, he's acting in the moment and everything he does seems completely random. Even when he has a scheme with phases, it's chaotic. Giving him a tragic past just turns him into anti-Batman, which I don't think is as interesting. Joker was just so serious, and the bits where i laughed were (I think?) not supposed to be funny. Comics and comic book media can be serious, but they shouldn't take themselves seriously because they are at their heart ridiculous.

The biggest mistake any writer ever made was in pretending that Batman isn't inherantly ludicrous. It's been said before, but - He's a man in a bat suit! That's really silly, and the contrast with his uber-sad and not funny backstory and humourless personality is partially what makes him so fun to read. He's probably one of the silliest mainstream comic heroes, and yet he's the one that people seem to take the most seriously and which writers seem to increasingly want to take seriously. Batman worked because he was the straightman in a world of lunatics, who was semi-aware that he himself was also a lunatic. As you say, by adding a bunch of bat-family with their own uber-serious (and boring) backstories, it diminishes the effect of Batman himself. and overshadows him

Maybe--just maybe--there weren't a lot of women warriors back in the day not because women were "forbidden from training" or whatever the fuck, but because only a small percent of women are as strong as the average man, and finding and training those women was a waste of time when any random jabroni off the street could beat them.

There was a big argument about this on r/GC back in the day. I think it was around the time that they were bannign anything that even remotely resembled debate, but there was a great deal of sperging about 'Scythian warrior women' and the fact that Amazons are actually sexist. I don't think that the historical exclusion of women from combat roles is misogynistic at all, since it's a simple fact that someone would have had to stay and care for the home (Fetching water, grinding wheat, making clothing, feeding animals, feeding children, cleaning, going to market, keeping the fire, cooking etc etc.), and women being less physically strong were better suited to this role. It sucks that women didn't get to do cool shit, but honestly just surviving childbirth was a feat in itself so I think they earned the right to not get clubbed to death in a battle.

 

[Feline Supremacist]

Really liked season 1 of Stranger Things, season 2 had some weird moments but was overall OK. Season 3 I don't what the fuck happened. Maybe the novelty just wore off for me but felt like they were trying to hit you over the head with women good men dumb at the expense of telling a good story with likeable characters.

Black Mirror - maybe not exactly political but what was a neat little sci-fi show like a modern Twilight Zone went off the rails in season 5. We went from interesting concepts and dystopias to "is it gay if you fuck your buddy in VR but he is a woman", "Facebook bad" and what I can only assume is a coded cry for help from Miley Cyrus through the medium of a Netflix show.

The Boston Dynamics robot dog episode was great but that's about it. The nuance is gone from Black Mirror.

 

[Red Hood]

The popularity of the Joker is a symptom of a wider problem in comics- which is that they take themselves too seriously. Every writer thinks that their story will be the next Dark Knight Rises or Long Halloween, and with most of the best original and marketable takes on the big characters taken, they decide that just being Really Serious is they key to creating art.

I personally hated the Joker movie. I dislike Joker backstories in general, because I think it wrecks the opposition that Joker has to Batman. Bruce Wayne is defined by his past traumas and is unable to move on from them, wheras historically (with the exception of Killing Joke) the Joker is fully immersed in the present. He has no past, no name, he's acting in the moment and everything he does seems completely random. Even when he has a scheme with phases, it's chaotic. Giving him a tragic past just turns him into anti-Batman, which I don't think is as interesting. Joker was just so serious, and the bits where i laughed were (I think?) not supposed to be funny. Comics and comic book media can be serious, but they shouldn't take themselves seriously because they are at their heart ridiculous.

The biggest mistake any writer ever made was in pretending that Batman isn't inherantly ludicrous. It's been said before, but - He's a man in a bat suit! That's really silly, and the contrast with his uber-sad and not funny backstory and humourless personality is partially what makes him so fun to read. He's probably one of the silliest mainstream comic heroes, and yet he's the one that people seem to take the most seriously and which writers seem to increasingly want to take seriously. Batman worked because he was the straightman in a world of lunatics, who was semi-aware that he himself was also a lunatic. As you say, by adding a bunch of bat-family with their own uber-serious (and boring) backstories, it diminishes the effect of Batman himself. and overshadows him

David Mazzuchelli drew a nice little piece for the supplemental material of a Batman: Year One reprint that sums things up nicely.

I've never been fond of super-serious Joker. There's certainly a balance to be struck with the character that I don't think many writers want to work with, they just want to make him edgy and creepy and a psycho and not respect that for a good portion of his career- including his reinvention in the 70s, ultimately he's about scheming and executing elaborate and flamboyant crimes, often with an element of announcing it beforehand. Both The Dark Knight Returns and The Killing Joke featured this Joker, even if they took a much darker swing at it. But I feel like guys like Dennis O'Neil and Steve Englehart had a much better grasp on the character than most modern writers. It never really matters why he does what he does.

I feel sort of like he did with Watchmen, Alan Moore unwittingly ruined things by people taking the wrong example from his work. The Joker was turned from wacky psycho heist villain to guy with a philosophy of "everyone will be like me if they have one bad day". But in The Killing Joke this isn't supposed to be the modus operandi of every crime he ever commits. He's specifically doing horrible things to drive Jim Gordon insane. But now Joker appearances are always serious social experiment bullshit That Says a Lot About Our Society because of The Killing Joke and The Dark Knight. People that sympathize with the character (or, more usually, the version of the character from the limited number of trade paperbacks and films they tend to draw from).

One of the reasons I love the 60's Batman show is precisely because of what you said- he's the straightman in a world full of total nuts. Adam West doesn't get enough credit for keeping a perfectly straight face through scenes that are intensely off the wall while wearing a bat costume. It's similar to Leslie Nielsen's performances in Airplane! or The Naked Gun. Just played completely straight as if they're the hero of a 40's western.

 

[Slimy Time]

There was a big argument about this on r/GC back in the day. I think it was around the time that they were bannign anything that even remotely resembled debate, but there was a great deal of sperging about 'Scythian warrior women' and the fact that Amazons are actually sexist. I don't think that the historical exclusion of women from combat roles is misogynistic at all, since it's a simple fact that someone would have had to stay and care for the home (Fetching water, grinding wheat, making clothing, feeding animals, feeding children, cleaning, going to market, keeping the fire, cooking etc etc.), and women being less physically strong were better suited to this role. It sucks that women didn't get to do cool shit, but honestly just surviving childbirth was a feat in itself so I think they earned the right to not get clubbed to death in a battle.

Part of it in addition to all that is that men are expendable, women are not when it comes to producing the next generation. A woman can only give birth once every nine months and once she pregnant, that's it, she's not producing any more kids. Guys don't have this issue. He can knock up 10 different women. If nations or regions go to war, you send those you can afford to lose. It's one of the reasons if you look at most cultures around the world, those in power had harems or multiple wives. With death, disease, war and all these other factors, I need to have an heir, so I'll fuck all these women and hope one of them produced an heir.

Did history have warrior women? Of course. The wives of samurai were trained in the naginata because they were expected to protect and look after the home when their husband went off to war. If bandits or the enemy came, they were expected to fight. You see warrior women in a lot of mythology, Amazons, Valkyries, etc, I'm sure women were taught in other cultures how to fight and were expected to because it was a necessity.

 

[ToroidalBoat]

Joker

I prefer Joker from that 90s Batman cartoon (voice: Mark Hamill).