Manosphere Jordan Peterson - Internet Daddy Simulator, Post-modern Anti-postmodernist, Canadian Psychology Professor, Depressed, Got Hooked on Benzos

I would like to address the benzos addiction again. I know it's already kinda boring, but this family relation to psychiatric drugs is truly bizarre, given that both of them are psychologist, and JBP supposedly worked as psychotherapist. I know many psychotherapists, and they are as a rule very wary of psychiatric drugs because they tend to make talk therapy sometimes more difficult, have many side effects and can create dependence (and also they usually can't prescribe them so they are upset ;)).

It's absolutely impossible that JBP didn't know what the dangers of benzos are before he developed his habit. He had to know he is playing with fire. But that is not the end of "weird relationship with psychiatric drugs". Even more bizarre is the fact that they put their daughter on antidepressants at age 12 even though it's well-known that antidepressants are very dangerous children and teenagers. They carry black-box warning for this age group for over 16 years!

I forgot to mention that in the part of negative influence of his "dependence" on his reputation, she said something about if you want to find someone perfect to follow you will be looking for a long time. Anyway, she implied that his dependence is an imperfection. That's a major downplaying of a massive fuckup.
It's not a mere imperfection. Imperfection would be something like, idk, having mess in your room from time to time, like a person in the picture below
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In case of JBP we deal here with massive denial, willful ignorance, brazen arrogance and lack of personal responsibility. I doubt it will truly damage his reputation because people who are able to look at him critically didn't think highly about him before all of this happened, and his followers might stay loyal anyway. But in a normal world it should.
 
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Gorilla Tessellator said:
Even more bizarre is the fact that they put their daughter on antidepressants at age 12 even though it's well-known that antidepressants are very dangerous children and teenagers. They carry black-box warning for this age group for over 16 years!
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Firstly, it wasn’t Peterson who “put his daughter on anti depressants”. That would be her family doctor or psychiatrist, presumably in coordination with her parents.

I don’t know where you got this ridiculous idea that “antidepressants are very dangerous for teenagers” when the usage of SSRI’s in teenagers have been a well established practice for many years in both Europe and the US, when other forms of treatment aren’t effective, or if the severity of the underlying issues is severe enough.

(As for the black box warning, that refers to an increased risk of suicide in certain cases, and is a pretty well understood side effect of how SSRIs work.)


Gorilla Tessellator said:
I would like to address the benzos addiction again. I know it's already kinda boring, but this family relation to psychiatric drugs is truly bizarre, given that both of them are psychologist, and JBP supposedly worked as psychotherapist. I know many psychotherapists, and they are as a rule very wary of psychiatric drugs because they tend to make talk therapy sometimes more difficult, have many side effects and can create dependence (and also they usually can't prescribe them so they are upset ;)).
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Yes, many psychotherapist don’t like treating people who take benzodiazepines because they can mask underlying issues.

The difference here is of course that JP didn’t take benzodiazepines while in long term psychotherapy, he got them prescribed as a temporary measure.

It's absolutely impossible that JBP didn't know what the dangers of benzos are before he developed his habit. He had to know he is playing with fire.
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The “dangers of benzodiazepines” aren’t that easy to define or predict, otherwise you wouldn’t see them prescribed as often as they are. (And presumably JP couldn’t have gotten his doctor to prescribe them either.)

While there are some factors that predict a higher risk of addiction (alcoholism in the family or previous substance abuse for example) the effects of benzodiazepines can be unpredictable.

Some people take them for weeks or months without problems. (Some take them for years at a time, and don’t even experience withdrawals when properly titrated.)

Others slip into addiction after just a few weeks.

It’s impossible to predict, so to say that he was “playing with fire” or was being irresponsible is incorrect.

(As I recall, the benzodiazepine that JP was taking was klonopin, which has a fairly low abuse potential and fairly benign reputation.)
 
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Steamboat_Bill said:
He was flying there before the pandemic really got bad, but otherwise, yes.
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You're kidding, right? Because coronavirus was clearly an issue for concern here in the US by late February. People were panic-buying supplies starting in the last week of February, and lockdowns started during the first week in March.

Peterson and his daughter were in Florida at the time, and there's no way they could not have known the pandemic was getting out of hand. Italy was already a shitshow; they were 2-3 weeks ahead of us.

Mikhaila posted the "proof of life" video of her father playing with an RC car in their Florida back yard at the end of March. The next time we saw him was in mid-June, when she posted a pic of him having his birthday dinner at a Belgrade steakhouse. So when did they fly to Serbia? Late May or early June--when the pandemic had already been a major public health crisis for months, and still was one. And that? That is fucking stupid.
 
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Fapcop said:
While there are some factors that predict a higher risk of addiction (alcoholism in the family or previous substance abuse for example) the effects of benzodiazepines can be unpredictable.
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I GOT IT! Finally, I've been looking for this video for a long time.


So we have a smoker and an alcoholic by his own self admission. That's why I also think he might began mixing. Here are the risk factors you talk about.

Now, what you say about the hidden side effects makes sense. But I don't think right now Peterson's health claims of any kind make sense. We are talking apple cider of doom kind of guy. And Mikahila is fucking crazy holy shit. And the russian guy? He has a demon inside named Igor? Fuck me.
 
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Angry New Ager said:
You're kidding, right? Because coronavirus was clearly an issue for concern here in the US by late February. People were panic-buying supplies starting in the last week of February, and lockdowns started during the first week in March.

Peterson and his daughter were in Florida at the time, and there's no way they could not have known the pandemic was getting out of hand. Italy was already a shitshow; they were 2-3 weeks ahead of us.

Mikhaila posted the "proof of life" vide of her father playing with an RC car in their Florida back yard at the end of March. The next time we saw him was in mid-June, when she posted a pic of him having his birthday dinner at a Belgrade steakhouse. So when did they fly to Serbia? Late May or early June--when the pandemic had already been a major public health crisis for months, and still was one. And that? That is fucking stupid.
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He was doing all this back in January, when we all thought it was China's problem.
 
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Gorilla Tessellator said:
I would like to address the benzos addiction again. I know it's already kinda boring, but this family relation to psychiatric drugs is truly bizarre, given that both of them are psychologist,
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Both of...whom? Peterson himself is a psychologist. His wife was/is a massage therapist. I don't know what Mikhaila studied at university, or if she even went, but she's not a psychologist. His son does computer stuff and avoids the spotlight.

...grifter JBP supposedly worked as psychotherapist.
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He was a clinical psychologist, but not a psychotherapist, which requires additional specialized training. As a clinical psychologist (at least in Canada), he could not have prescribed drugs to his clients, but like most psychologists I'm sure he referred clients to psychiatrists so they could get on meds.
I know many psychotherapists, and they are as a rule very wary of psychiatric drugs because they tend to make talk therapy sometimes more difficult, have many side effects and can create dependence (and also they usually can't prescribe them so they are upset ;)).
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I don't know where you are, but in North America this is absolutely not true. For many people who are deep in the shit, getting on meds actually makes it possible for them to make effective use of talk therapy.

And you're saying two separate and irreconcilable things here: that psychotherapists are wary of psych meds and see them as an impediment to talk therapy--and at the same time, that they're upset they can't prescribe them. Well, which fucking is it?

It's absolutely impossible that JBP didn't know what the dangers of benzos are before he developed his habit. He had to know he is playing with fire.
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Okay, good--something based in actual facts, and that we can agree on.

But that is not the end of "weird relationship with psychiatric drugs". Even more bizarre is the fact that they put their daughter on antidepressants at age 12...
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Mikhaila suffered from a severe autoimmune condition that caused degenerative arthritis. She had at least one joint replacement surgery done (an ankle, I think) as a teenager because the joint had been destroyed by her condition. Safe to say, she was in a lot of pain, was debilitated by it, and couldn't enjoy a normal life. I don't know if she ever developed suicidal ideation, but I would not be at all surprised if she did. Her case is exactly the kind of circumstances under which antidepressants could be warranted for a 12-year-old.

...even though it's well-known that antidepressants are very dangerous children and teenagers. They carry black-box warning for this age group for over 16 years!
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The black box warning is there because there is a slight elevated risk of suicidal ideation in some children who take antidepressants. Not all of them will experience this; in fact, the great majority won't. The risk is quite small--but it is present, and children prescribed antidepressants should be closely monitored for any signs of suicidal thinking.

The black box warns psychiatrists to prescribe those drugs to children with care, and proceed with caution; it does not tell them not to prescribe them at all.

I forgot to mention that in the part of negative influence of his "dependence" on his reputation, she said something about if you want to find someone perfect to follow you will be looking for a long time.
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Well, she's right. Peterson's neediest fans have built him up as the great, wise sage who can do no wrong, which is to be expected, given that they're lost children longing for a strong father to guide them.
But in the process of growing up, children have to learn that their parents aren't perfect; that they are perfectly capable of being stupid, petty, ignorant, or full of hubris. Peterson's Lobsterboys are having to learn that right now, and a lot of them are having a tough time with it--either they're doubting the benefits they did get from his teachings, or they're in a state of willful, worshipful denial about the whole matter.

He's not perfect; never was. Psychologists, I've discovered over the years, are just as prone to having massive personal blind spots about their own issues as anybody else. They're often much better at seeing other people's blind spots than they are their own (I'm reminded of a lady I once knew who ran a successful and highly-rated cleaning service, but whose own house was a mess, and she seemed completely oblivious to it). In fact, when I meet somebody and find out they're a psychologist, my first thought is, "Okay, so this one's a nut. I wonder what particular form their nuttiness takes?" For Peterson, it seems to be a savior complex--which may have remained pretty much latent until he got thrust into the international spotlight, and found himself surrounded by salvation-seekers.

And because he's not perfect (and has that savior complex), he did really stupid shit, such as embarking on a massive, exhausting worldwide speaking tour that wore him out, lessened his (already precarious) ability to cope with his wife's cancer diagnosis, and left him more susceptible to thinking, "Yeah, okay, I guess I can handle benzos; I know the risks." Well, bucko, no you fucking can't, and while you're dealing with that, maybe it's time to do some work on that savior complex that got you into so much trouble. (Though I doubt he will.)

I'm not going to address the rest of your assertions about shit you think Mikhaila Peterson implied, as I've already spent more time than I care to correcting you on the basic fucking facts you got wrong. My autism has its limits.

ETA:
Steamboat_Bill said:
He was doing all this back in January, when we all thought it was China's problem.
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No; that was the stupid Russia trip where he stupidly allowed them to put him into a coma.

He had pneumonia while there, too, and pneumonia has long-term effects on your lungs even after you've recovered from it--which makes the decision to fly to Belgrade in May at the height of the coronavirus pandemic even stupider.

Two separate trips--one as the pandemic was barely on anybody's radar; one when the pandemic was actively raging. If Mikhaila's serving as his tard wrangler, she's doing a really bad job of it.
 
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Gorilla Tessellator said:
It's absolutely impossible that JBP didn't know what the dangers of benzos are before he developed his habit. He had to know he is playing with fire. But that is not the end of "weird relationship with psychiatric drugs".
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I can't say for sure but part of me is thinking that Jordan thought he was too smart or had incredible willpower to be able to avoid the addiction that comes with taking pills. It wouldn't be the first time that somebody thought they were somehow better or stronger than the rabble that get hooked on these things.

And that's the problem with a lot of drugs out there, doctors prescribing Oxy like it was candy and leading to the opioid crisis we see in a lot of places. These things aren't a joke and they can really fuck you up to the point where you are hooked before you even realize it. They're that insidious.
 
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In Petersons's defense, a lot of doctors and psychiatrists don't seem to realize that once someone is on benzos for anything more than a short time, they cannot just stop taking them. Their dose needs to be gradually reduced. This seems to be relatively new knowledge. Some people may be able to stop without problems, but many are not.

It is not surprising that Peterson got bad guidance. But it does seem that on many occasions he and his family made the worst possible decisions that made things infinitely worses for him .

With regards to Covid--ironically, both Peterson and his daughter have posts on their twitters suggesting that they think the Covid thing is grossly overblown.
 
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Phil Ken Sebben said:
I can't say for sure but part of me is thinking that Jordan thought he was too smart or had incredible willpower to be able to avoid the addiction that comes with taking pills. It wouldn't be the first time that somebody thought they were somehow better or stronger than the rabble that get hooked on these things.

And that's the problem with a lot of drugs out there, doctors prescribing Oxy like it was candy and leading to the opioid crisis we see in a lot of places. These things aren't a joke and they can really fuck you up to the point where you are hooked before you even realize it. They're that insidious.
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It's kind of a hallmark of youthful rural Canadian drinking and drug use; there's a strong sentiment to get as fucked up as possible but still be able to maintain yourself and your life, almost like a test of willpower. Combine that with the fact that people with mood disorders literally need some kind of drug to stabilize themselves, and you have the kind of thought process that Peterson had. He didn't maintain his equilibrium and his arrogance with drug use finally caught up to him.

His entire history with drug use perfectly encapsulates rural Canadian values imo, from starting when he was 14 and on. It's very normalized in those areas, and you're actually somewhat of an outcast if you don't participate in it, even amongst the adults.
 
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