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Until you start actually quoting chapter and verse to justify your raging hate-boner for Traviss, instead of just repeating vague insinuations, you can shove it.
Star Wars Griefing Thread (SPOILERS) - Safety off
- Thread starter CowReserach Inc.
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I really hope Sir Anthony Daniels isn't shit on the way Mark Hamill was. I've always thought Daniels was a class act who also used the C3PO character as a force for good even outside the SW franchise. From what I can recall growing up, C3PO (and Artoo) had guest roles on an episode of Sesame Street and Daniels as Threepio also starred in commercials encouraging parents to vaccinate their kids -- possibly in an effort to stop whooping cough.
Most recently, Daniels had the sense to bow out of the SW franchise as gracefully as possible after starring in Episode IX. That had to be difficult for him, but I give him credit for seeing the writing on the wall and choosing to leave on his own terms with his dignity intact. He has every right to keep the fond memories he has of his fellow cast and characters that were a big part of his life for over 40 years.
Even if Disney or fans ultimately shit on him for his post, it wont stop many fans, especially those of us here, from appreciating his legacy.
@Adamska - Have there been any more Jedi Temple Challenge episodes? I can understand not posting all of them here if there hasn't been significant changes or happenings worth sharing, but I've been curious how the remainder of the "season" has ended up.
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You should use spoiler tags, with your replies. I don't want to scroll through a novel length of rebuttals for just one person.Until you start actually quoting chapter and verse to justify your raging hate-boner for Traviss, instead of just repeating vague insinuations, you can shove it.
Oaat
kiwifarms.net
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I don't mind long walls of text usually because by now I've learned to just spend 2 seconds scrolling past them and be done with it, especially when it's about stuff that doesn't interested me or I don't want to get dragged into another shitflinging contest.
however suddenly getting your panties in a twist when someone else has been doing it for fucking ever, in the worst possible way burying people with words in pure attrition reddit style and no one made a peep, is retarded.
as for canon, it was more a jab at everyone's favorite star wars author
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GeneralFriendliness and Cyril Sneer both writing novels on the thread.
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- Apr 16, 2017
I was actually feeling like looking this up too. I haven't heard any talk about JTC anywhere and Adamska hasn't graced us with a review as of late. I'm pretty sure its still going though... right?
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@LORD IMPERATOR did that (and he spoilered it too) and you just chose to silently fume at him and tried to pick on people you thought were weaker targets. You only changed tack when you realized he won't let you go.Until you start actually quoting chapter and verse to justify your raging hate-boner for Traviss, instead of just repeating vague insinuations, you can shove it.
I dunno chief, the guy you're trying to correct at least uses the spoiler tags for his own stuff. @GeneralFriendliness does too for his cosmic shitposts.
Only one longposter doesn't...
More positive news then?
Oh yeah, there's more episodes of JTC. I just never got around to watching them sadly; other things got in the way and I didn't want to burn out on them. The full ten episodes are up for those curious:
Based on the first half I watched, I'd say that as a whole the show is pretty solid and easily the third best thing Disney made for the franchise. It suffers mainly from sameyness though, since the sets and the challenges change fairly little. The highlights are mainly the trivia games.
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He quoted a couple of issues of Dark Horse's Republic title. Unless I missed a post somewhere, he has yet to directly quote anything that Traviss actually wrote.
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- Sep 7, 2019
eh, not always and I skip posts from several different people. not trying to correct anyone (like I said depending on the content I scroll past it anyway, spoiler or not), just pointing out the nonsense getting triggered by long posts all of a sudden.
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- Jun 25, 2020
Honestly, I just scroll past most of it because if I want to read a novel about Star Wars shit, I have a stack of books to do that. I just try not to be a dick about it because I don't want to get into a War of the Words over this shit because I'm in my 30s and already autistically argued about the EU as a younger man. It's stupid to get into slap fights over someone liking different parts of the SW universe. I like the Mandalorian shit and the Sith shit, never really had an interest in prequel or Clone Wars stuff because I honestly think Jedi shit gets real boring. At least with some Sith story lines you get more complexity than "must be galactic boy scout".
That being said, gonna go back to watching Edge of Tomorrow and wishing we had gotten a Star Wars movie like it.
LORD IMPERATOR
kiwifarms.net
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- Aug 4, 2020
I quoted her blog. That's good enough.
Lucas never condemned the Jedi raising kids as Jedi, nor did he condemn the Jedi for using clones. Instead, he just portrayed the Jedi as victims of circumstance, and he also had the Jedi portrayed as willing to let go people who don't want to be Jedi anymore. So basically, you're already wrong from the start. Most of those condemnations come from the fanbase, not Lucas, especially when he was trying to portray the Jedi as the good guys while the fans instead saw a dogmatic, backwards Order. The fans and George didn't necessarily see eye to eye, so stop trying to speak on Lucas' behalf. It was already bad enough when Filoni claimed things were Lucas' will, when you do the same it's just as pathetic.
Also, Luke's Jedi Order is different from the old one. If it's fair game to hit on them for the flaws of the old Order, then it's also fair game to shit on the Mandalorians for their long-ass list of crimes, from the massacre of the Cathar in the Mandalorian Wars, to Jango Fett and his Mando mercs creating a clone slave army for pay. After all, the leader of the Mandos is Boba Fett, hardly a man who has a saintly, pristine record.
Mando fans blame the Jedi for everything wrong, to the point where they note that every time a Sith tears things up, the Jedi are to blame.
Except again, the Jedi didn't accept the use of the Clone Army. If you watched Episode II, you'd know that the REPUBLIC accepted the use of clones. The Jedi were just made to lead them. Palpatine legalized the use of clones and formed the Grand Army of the Republic, drafting the clones into service. The Jedi had nothing to do with it.
As keepers of the peace, they were already fighting summer wars like the one in Naboo in EPI to keep Republic factions from killing each other. And they were also master tacticians and strategists in everything not written by Traviss. Windu gave that whole "keepers of the peace" statement because the Jedi didn't have the resources or manpower to run a whole war. The clones did, though. That, and the Old Republic does show the Jedi being capable of soldiering for over TWENTY THOUSAND YEARS. I'm pretty sure the peacekeepers who have been fighting wars for a thousand generations are capable of transitioning into soldiers.
Traviss openly accused the Jedi fans of being Nazis:
"It's slave-owner-think: it's Nazi-think. And yes, I bloody well hate it, and all those who think it. It's not about Jedi - who don't even exist. It's about you."
Again, even if the Jedi refused to lead the clones, the Chancellor would just put loyal officers like Tarkin in charge and have the clones continue on serving. After all, Jango and the Kaminoans already indoctrinated them to be loyal to the Republic. If anything, they're Palpatine's slaves. They're his army, they're his slaves, they do as he asks, whether it's "follow the Jedi General" or "KILL the Jedi General." The clones were men drafted into the army by the Supreme Chancellor, the Jedi had nothing to do with it. All they could do was lead these soldiers to ensure less casualties and make sure they got out alive.
Anyone who thinks the Celts are superior to the Romans morally really hasn't looked at much of what they did before the Romans took over. Heck, even the Celts themselves recognized the superiority of Roman morality and civilization when they took up Roman ways as Caesar packed the Senate with Gauls.
Wrong. The Clone Army was created by the Sith and the Mandalorians with help from the Kaminoans. A Jedi had the idea for an army made from clones, but he acted outside the Council's will, and he was killed before the army was completed. He certainly wasn't allowed to opine whether these clone soldiers would have free will or be slaves to the system.
So it's stupid to commend the Jedi for leading the Clone Army and ensuring less casualties, as well as living alongside the clones, sharing in their pain, their suffering, their joys, and their sorrows? It's stupid to commend the Jedi for leading the clones from one victory to another? It's stupid to commend the Jedi for leading the clones out of hellholes and keeping them alive through one hardship after another?
"It's been said that the 501st got the best of the war. We also got the worst. On Felucia, the Seps dug their metal heels into the muck of that alien hellhole and dared the Republic to come in after them. So we did, only to be met with month after month of flesh-eating diseases, shrieking nocturnal predators, and other sights that haunt me to this day. Cut off and for all we knew abandoned by our superiors, our only hope was Aayla Secura, our Jedi commander. Without her iron will, none of us would have come out of that mess with our sanity, or our lives. When her death came, I hope it was quick. She earned that much. When the 501st was finally rotated out of Felucia, Aayla Secura made a point of seeing us off personally, calling us the bravest soldiers she had ever seen. It's a good thing we were wearing helmets, because none of us could bear to look her in the eye."
-Anonymous 501st Legion soldier, Star Wars Battlefront II (2005) on the topic of Felucia and the Jedi General, Aayla Secura
So what if it fit the plans of the Sith? The way the Jedi led the clones, the clones themselves found it admirable and respectable. Down to the point where some clones even called it perfect:
"They're good. No words needed. Perfect sync. Like clones in a way. Better. They're the best. That's why they command." -Clone Commander Bly, Star Wars Republic, issue 68
Er, no. The Imperials who were killing people left and right were doing so because most of them were core-world militants who A) despised the weakness of the former Republic and B) saw aliens and former Separatists as scum, untermenschen, and saw no problems in genociding them. Heck, if the Jedi DID commit massacres and didn't fight humanely, these later Imperials would just be encouraged to do so too, citing that their former Jedi superiors had no such problems when it comes to committing war crimes. If anything, had the Jedi agreed to the ARCs' suggestions of committing war crimes, you'll have clone troopers considering suicide due to the PTSD coming from killing civilians. Killing robots, Sep soldiers, and traitorous Jedi who attempted regicide is one thing, since those people fight back and the self-defense mechanism of the human being kicks in. Killing defenseless people will cause soldiers to snap and question the morality of their actions. Even the Nazis knew this, hence why they stopped having regular German army units kill undesirables after said army units began to complain of psychological stress from the killings, and had the unwanted shipped to concentration camps where they were killed far from prying eyes.
The objection does make sense. Because if the Jedi were the slave-owners of the clones, getting them to help arrest a treasonous chancellor would be as easy as Mace picking up a comlink and saying "The Chancellor has been conspiring with the Separatists. Execute Order 65."
The majority of the Cul'Vay'Dar still helped Jango make his clone slave army for pay. And Jango, being the leader of the Mandalorians, is the one who took the money to make the clone slave army in the first place. So the leader of the Mandalorians, and Mandalorian mercenaries, making a clone slave army for pay. Yes, that does mean that the Mandalorians were responsible for it, unless you want to count the Kaminoans too. You want to hold a single Jedi like Sifo Diyas, who was acting outside the Council's orders, as proof that the Jedi as a whole were responsible for enslaving the clones? Then the leader of the Mandos working with Mando mercenaries to create said clone slave army makes the Mandalorians just as guilty, if not even moreso, since the Jedi Sifo-Diyas only had minimal input before he died.
True, Jango did kill Jedi with his bare hands. But he was Mandalore, after all. You don't get to lead unless you fight harder among the Mandos, right?
If the Cul'Vay'Dar had any objections, they still outnumbered Jango and could have handed the man his ass on a plate or twisted his arm to give more rights to the clones. They didn't. They did as they were told, all for pay.
If they wanted mercies for the soldiers, they'd fight alongside them like the Jedi did and do their best to minimize casualties in combat.
Nothing would stop the Jedi from walking away from the situation, aside from the fact that the Republic will still use the clone slave army indoctrinated to be loyal to the state as canon fodder. So basically, the Jedi walking away would accomplish absolutely NOTHING. Either that, or the Jedi Order's refusal to fight could be used by Palpatine's propaganda media as "proof" that they have Separatist sympathies or ties to their old pal Dooku, which would then give the Chancellor the right to order the Clones to march on the Jedi Temple to eradicate "Separatist sympathizers." Hey, they were already on Coruscant, getting on the ships. All it takes is a simple about-face and an order from the Chancellor. An order that he would be all too happy to give.
Source? My quote from Traviss' blog.
No, but I do think it was funny that Traviss uses the word "Nazi" to describe Jedi fans, and yet the one time the Jedi DID act like Nazis, the Mandos were in bed with them. It's just something to laugh at whenever Traviss uses the N-word to describe the Jedi fans.
Actually, from how Lucas' own movie portrays it, the Jedi did a fine job for their first day as generals. They led the clones, the clones push back the CIS droids, and in a short while, a clone commander tells Yoda that the Seps are running scared. Quite a performance, compared to other films where shittier generals get their armies blown to hell and they have to pull back. If you disagree, blame Lucas.
Wookiees can fight, but waging a war is more than just fighting. As I said, Qui-Gon taught the Wookies how to MAINTAIN an army, a base, provide resources for a military operation, and so on. And of course, the Jedi were fighting wars long before the Wookiees entered the Republic, so the Jedi do know a thing or two about fighting.
I'm pretty sure the Republic populace in Legends knew who the fuck Sev'rance Tann was. After all, she blacked out Coruscant in the first month of the war. For the average twat in Coruscant, she was the reason they got a power outage in the heart of the Republic. Enough to the point where the Jedi appointed Echuu Shen-Jon, a man who lost a padawan to her, to HUNT HER DOWN and end her threat. When the Jedi resort to assassination and utilizing a man's search for revenge to end you, that means you are a threat to the Republic.
Nope, that quote from the classic BFII pretty much showed how Traviss' notes on the clone-Jedi relationship was absolutely wrong. Down to the point where clones who KNOW that they were going to betray the Jedi were getting cold feet. Not only with Aayla, but when they marched onto the Jedi Temple.
Uh, no. Mace didn't recognize Jango as the superior fighter. That quote notes how Mace is judging the threat level of Jango, but he doesn't lose his balls. Instead, he takes a saber to the man's neck, and we all know what happens. Which was prophesied back in KOTOR 2
"Perhaps your people fought their last battle at Malachor V, and you have been dying ever since, a quiet death that will last centuries...until all that remains is their code, their history, and in the end, the shell of their armor upon the shell of a man, too easily slain by Jedi."
-Kreia, to Canderous Ordo, KOTOR 2
You do realize that ARC Trooper was berating Padawans, right? Not full Jedi Knights? Even Jedi Knights aren't that confident that their Padawans can handle everything, and they feel the need to keep them on a short leash, so an ARC Trooper not being confident in fighting alongside Padawans isn't that strange. As we've seen with Anakin and Obi-Wan, knights and masters don't really have a high view of a Padawan's fighting strength.
And yet the very same Jedi managed to kill 300 Mandos at Galidraan, with only Republic militia backing them up. Down to the point where a wash-out Padawan with daddy issues killed 20 of them. Go figure.
"The casualties on both sides were heavy, with Jango being the only survivor out of at least three hundred Mandalorians. The Jedi handed Jango over to the Governor of Galidraan, and the Mandalorian was sold into slavery."
Obi-Wan was portrayed as a General Ripper who, in Null-ARC Commando Ordo's words, was a "glory seeker who wastes too many men." The Jedi bashing got really thick in the Order 66 novel. Which is kinda rich, considering that in other depictions, Kenobi is far less a glory hog and more of a stick in the mud who WOULDN'T go for glory but instead seek the mission's success.
They could have had the Mandalorians be beaten by someone else other than the Jedi. Like that one time, when a bunch of hood rats in smuggler ships working with Republic forces DESTROYED A MANDALORIAN BLOCKADE during the war between the Republic and the True Sith. In that battle, yes, the Mandos won the great honor of defeating the Jedi, only for smugglers to kick their ass with the help of the Republic military. Talk about snatching defeat from the jaws of victory, eh?
Actually, the Mandalorians were doing well when they fought the Republic and nothing but the Republic during the Mandalorian Wars. The gods of war were on their side despite the Republic being bigger and having the wealth and manpower of the core worlds. The Mandalorians had the war in the bag until the Jedi showed up and kicked their tails. But unlike the Clone Wars-era Mandalorians who kept whining about Galidraan, the Mandalorians of that timeline actually respected the people who nearly wiped them out, and some like Canderous even chose to kill in the name of Revan, the one Jedi who caused the largest number of Mandalorian deaths in Jedi and Mandalorian history. Galidraan was a fucking bug bite compared to what Revan did to the Mandalorians, and yet the Mandos whined more about the former than the latter.
Not really, no. If you saw that fight, Ulic was fighting with nothing but a melee weapon and acrobatics, while Mandalore had a Basilisk War Droid. When Ulic destroyed that, Mandalore told him to put aside his lightsaber and fight with Mandalorian hand-axes. Ulic still kicked his ass despite all the limits placed on him. That is why Mandalore decided to join Ulic when Ulic spared him. Ulic was a better Mandalorian than even Mandalore himself could aspire to be. And again, that's a mark against Mandalore, because he could have won that war conventionally and kept his clans free of Sith control, especially since Ulic wasn't the one to ask for a duel. The last thing you do is challenge a Dark Jedi to a melee duel unless you're a Jedi yourself.
The only thing I'll give credit for is Mandalore being loyal to Ulic and the Mandalorians being capable of fighting through the Republic's finest. They weren't able to defeat the Jedi. When they fought the primitives of Onderon, who were allied with the Jedi, they lost. Horribly. They lost Mandalore, who was mauled to death by wild animals.
No, that assertion is still consistent, since the fact that Mandalorians burned worlds in their wake was something characters keep talking about in the KOTOR games-and we saw it in the KOTOR comics. TWICE. First on the Cathar world, then Serroco. Yes, they drafted people from the worlds they captured, but they also destroyed many other worlds, which made the Revanchists thirsty for Mandalorian blood. Unlike Revan during his campaign against the Republic, where he strove to capture worlds intact, the Mandalorians, Canderous included, were okay with destroying whole worlds or at least part of a world just to win.
Well, according to Canderous, the Jedi used intelligent tactics and strategies all the time:
“Once the Jedi Revan had taken charge, things began to turn against us. The Republic fleets began to use more than just basic tactics. Feints, counterattacks, mass deceptions, Revan was a genius in the field. Revan abandoned worlds of their defenders so that others would be too fortified to strike, and he was willing to make sacrifices in order to advance goals. And in the end, Revan proved too much for us. It was by the actions of one person, the Jedi Revan, that the Republic prevailed. Revan’s strategies and tactics defeated the best of us. Even Mandalore himself was taken aback by the ferocity, the tenacity, and the subtlety of Revan’s plans. Revan fought us to a standstill and then began pushing us back. We really didn’t have a chance. Mandalore himself was killed at the hands of the Jedi Revan. The best of us could not defeat him!”
-Canderous Ordo, Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic 1, on the topic of the Jedi Revan
“We thought we would triumph easily over such ‘noble’ and ‘compassionate’ leaders. Those were weaknesses we easily exploited in the past. You turned a demoralized, defeated mess, into a coordinated army. You brought tactics, backbone, and above all else, victory to them.”
-Canderous Ordo, AKA Mandalore the Preserver, Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic 2, to the Jedi Exile Meetra Surik, concerning how they changed the Republic war effort.
So it seems that the Jedi were more than capable of just hollow victories where most of their forces died. According to a top Mando general who later became their leader, Revan was a genius in the field, whose tactics and strategies tore the Mandalorians to shreds. His Jedi turned a demoralized, defeated Republic army, and gave them tactics, backbone, coordination, and victory. And guess what? Most of these Jedi went to Jedi school to learn. They didn't learn from Republic military leaders or some military school. They learned at the feet of Jedi Masters and used what they learned on the battlefield. Which included the tactics and strategies that tore the Mandalorians to shreds.
The Secret Sith Empire was KOTOR 2's doing. And again, it's another case of the Mandos not being as strong as they're hyped up to be. Mandos joining the True Sith should have been the end for the Republic. Instead, the 'Pubs beat the shit out of both of them by the end of the vanilla SWTOR story. Down to the point where the Sith Empire was collapsing and the Mandos who were paid to win the war couldn't win it for shit.
The New Sith Wars encompassed the 1000-year period from 2000 BBY to 1000 BBY. That included the campaign against the Dark Underlord.
No, my assessment is still correct. The True Mandos start killing people on behalf of some governor, said governor was a Death Watch spy and rats them out to the Jedi, the Jedi come in and ask Jango to drop everything, Jango doesn't obey and the battle is met. Also, Dooku didn't quit the Jedi Order because of that-he quit because Qui-Gon got killed by a Sith Lord and the Jedi weren't hunting down the other Sith, so Dooku left to go and kill the other Sith, only for said Sith to entice him to join forces because they both hate the corrupt and failing Republic.
The Filoniverse's timeline doesn't count for Legends.
Eh, no. The Jedi have been objectively proven to be better at war than the Mandos due to them winning almost every war they get into. At most, the Mandos repeat the pattern of joining the Sith, or attacking the Republic, getting their asses kicked by the Jedi, repeat. For at least three times, before they wised up and joined the Jedi in the New Sith Wars for money. The Jedi won every war they fought and only lost due to treachery from within their own ranks and the Republic betraying them.
Legacy of the Force, which posits that Jaina needs to learn to be a Mando to fight a Sith.
Except again, the games only do that because of the lore. And the lore says that Jedi are actually good in hand-to-hand fights. With or without lightsabers. You'd need a Mandalore like Canderous or Jango to kill the average Jedi in melee, and even then, they won't stand a chance against a powerful Jedi like Revan or Anakin.
It's the plot of the fucking book. Jaina goes to train with Fett to learn how to kill her brother, when Fett knows how to kill JEDI and her target's a SITH LORD. Two very, different things. The tactics against a Sith are different from tactics employed by a Jedi-killing bounty hunter who wasn't even the best Jedi-killer around.
If Darth Vader wasn't holding back, he'd have crushed Fett's windpipe with a glare. Or made him blow his own brains out. He didn't want to kill Fett because he could use Boba as a future asset to track targets. If he wanted Fett dead, Force Crush would have ended the fight in 3 seconds.
Not really. The Sith usually get close to victory, but it's their infighting that kills them. Exar Kun War, the Jedi Civil War, Great Galactic Wars, New Sith Wars, so on. They consistently beat the Jedi on the field and only lose due to infighting. The Mandalorians are usually united when fighting the Jedi, and they still lose horribly. Down to the point where they got nearly eradicated TWICE by the Jedi.
You do realize that one Sith was distracted, right? Context? What's that? He was focused on punishing one guy and gets shot from behind. Kinda like what happened to Palps. If Palps was facing Vader, the latter wouldn't have a chance, even if Vader was at full battle prep. Also, you really think a Sith is dumb enough to let a Mando surround him? Aside from the fact that Sith Orders like the One Sith and the True Sith have Sith up the wazoo (meaning one Sith Lord is usually flanked by lesser Sith) you also have the fact that everything Mandos throw at them, they can throw back and kill you with it. Oh, and they usually have goons too, so the numbers game actually favors them if you're not going to go for 1v1. Hey, if you think having multiple Mandos fight ONE Sith is fair, then a Sith calling on a couple dozen Imp soldiers and several apprentices would be fair game too, huh?
Also, Jacen is far more powerful than that One Sith. He was a member of the Skywalker clan gone over to the Dark Side. He'd be at Palpatine or Vader levels of strength. Last time I checked, no Mando ever got close to killing those two, not unless you want to count Maul and his brother getting a few hits in during their duel.
Outside of the one time where the Mandos worked with the Alliance, most of the time, the "True Mandalorians" aren't moral at all. At their best day, they work for assholes with fat wallets for pay. At their worst, they kill people for money or train clone slave armies for pay. So no, they're not moral at all. Stop pretending that they are. There's a reason why most SW EU fans see Boba Fett and other Mandos as murderous assholes who kill things for pay. Maybe the Mandos were moral under Fenn Shysa during the Rebellion years, (and maybe the Mandos during the beginning of the Sith-Imperial War) because they were genuinely fighting for freedom for the galaxy, but outside of that, the Mandos are bad guys who kill people for pay. Stop pretending that they're moral. You don't see Sith or Imperial fans like me arguing the Sith/the Empire are saints, do you? I love those assholes BECAUSE they're assholes, and they're honest about it. They work to bring about a greater good with bringing order to the galaxy, but they're not going to pretend like they're the second coming of Mother Teresa. They're very immoral people who use immoral deeds to create what they percieve as the greater good, but they don't try to cover up the fact that they're murderous bastards.
Other Lucasarts-approved fiction show the Jedi killing the Mandos rather handily, from the Old Republic games to Jango's backstory. So it's kind of an even split.
No shit, Leia is a bigshot Alliance leader.
Komari Vosa says it herself that she killed 20 Mandalorians during "that day." Are you saying that her words in the Bounty Hunter game aren't canon? And official sources state that 300 Mandos were on Galidraan.
The Mandalorian Neo-Crusaders didn't even try to hide the fact that they were murderous bastards. They just saw war as a way of life and waged war on anyone that can provide a fight. Canderous was even candid about blowing up a whole city to destroy a Republic shield device. The only greater good they were striving for was to turn the Republic into a military state where they would use the wealth of the core worlds to provide for arms and warships to fuel the Republic's growth. Otherwise, they annihilated anyone they came across who they wanted to fight.
Except Lucas would probably say otherwise, and one Grand Admiral having that opinion doesn't make it true. That could have just been a hallucination brought on by something else. Also, if that vision were true, then the Sith are right, since their religion IS conflict and growth. They have the same beliefs as the Mandos, except they allow for backstabbing and they apply said warlike beliefs to the Force while the Mandos use nukes and Basilisk War Droids.
Yes, Mandalore the Indomitable respected Ulic after the latter beat him. Which explains why I like him too, but the Neo-Crusaders are more powerful.
Valorum still kept sending Jedi to military hotspots, like that one place in Naboo where a military blockade of armed warships was harassing the locals. Oops. Looks like he didn't practice what he preached.
No, it's not arrogant to expect people to NOT be whiny when they lose at their own game. It's called "manners." When you lose, be it a card game or a war, you take it with your chin up and do your best to learn from what happened. The Mandalorians' portrayal of being salty about Galidraan ruins their character when in previous portrayals, they looked at their losses and did their best to learn from said loss. (Which was how Mandalore the Indomitable figured out that Lady Keto was a backstabbing bitch.)
Again, the official sources list 300 Mandalorians, and the Bounty Hunter game even states that Komari Vosa killed 20 of them.
According to Traviss, Celts. But the Mandos I loved were Spartans in space.
Considering how long YOUR posts are, you should practice what you preach.
Also, Luke's Jedi Order is different from the old one. If it's fair game to hit on them for the flaws of the old Order, then it's also fair game to shit on the Mandalorians for their long-ass list of crimes, from the massacre of the Cathar in the Mandalorian Wars, to Jango Fett and his Mando mercs creating a clone slave army for pay. After all, the leader of the Mandos is Boba Fett, hardly a man who has a saintly, pristine record.
Mando fans blame the Jedi for everything wrong, to the point where they note that every time a Sith tears things up, the Jedi are to blame.
Except again, the Jedi didn't accept the use of the Clone Army. If you watched Episode II, you'd know that the REPUBLIC accepted the use of clones. The Jedi were just made to lead them. Palpatine legalized the use of clones and formed the Grand Army of the Republic, drafting the clones into service. The Jedi had nothing to do with it.
As keepers of the peace, they were already fighting summer wars like the one in Naboo in EPI to keep Republic factions from killing each other. And they were also master tacticians and strategists in everything not written by Traviss. Windu gave that whole "keepers of the peace" statement because the Jedi didn't have the resources or manpower to run a whole war. The clones did, though. That, and the Old Republic does show the Jedi being capable of soldiering for over TWENTY THOUSAND YEARS. I'm pretty sure the peacekeepers who have been fighting wars for a thousand generations are capable of transitioning into soldiers.
Traviss openly accused the Jedi fans of being Nazis:
"It's slave-owner-think: it's Nazi-think. And yes, I bloody well hate it, and all those who think it. It's not about Jedi - who don't even exist. It's about you."
Again, even if the Jedi refused to lead the clones, the Chancellor would just put loyal officers like Tarkin in charge and have the clones continue on serving. After all, Jango and the Kaminoans already indoctrinated them to be loyal to the Republic. If anything, they're Palpatine's slaves. They're his army, they're his slaves, they do as he asks, whether it's "follow the Jedi General" or "KILL the Jedi General." The clones were men drafted into the army by the Supreme Chancellor, the Jedi had nothing to do with it. All they could do was lead these soldiers to ensure less casualties and make sure they got out alive.
Anyone who thinks the Celts are superior to the Romans morally really hasn't looked at much of what they did before the Romans took over. Heck, even the Celts themselves recognized the superiority of Roman morality and civilization when they took up Roman ways as Caesar packed the Senate with Gauls.
Wrong. The Clone Army was created by the Sith and the Mandalorians with help from the Kaminoans. A Jedi had the idea for an army made from clones, but he acted outside the Council's will, and he was killed before the army was completed. He certainly wasn't allowed to opine whether these clone soldiers would have free will or be slaves to the system.
So it's stupid to commend the Jedi for leading the Clone Army and ensuring less casualties, as well as living alongside the clones, sharing in their pain, their suffering, their joys, and their sorrows? It's stupid to commend the Jedi for leading the clones from one victory to another? It's stupid to commend the Jedi for leading the clones out of hellholes and keeping them alive through one hardship after another?
"It's been said that the 501st got the best of the war. We also got the worst. On Felucia, the Seps dug their metal heels into the muck of that alien hellhole and dared the Republic to come in after them. So we did, only to be met with month after month of flesh-eating diseases, shrieking nocturnal predators, and other sights that haunt me to this day. Cut off and for all we knew abandoned by our superiors, our only hope was Aayla Secura, our Jedi commander. Without her iron will, none of us would have come out of that mess with our sanity, or our lives. When her death came, I hope it was quick. She earned that much. When the 501st was finally rotated out of Felucia, Aayla Secura made a point of seeing us off personally, calling us the bravest soldiers she had ever seen. It's a good thing we were wearing helmets, because none of us could bear to look her in the eye."
-Anonymous 501st Legion soldier, Star Wars Battlefront II (2005) on the topic of Felucia and the Jedi General, Aayla Secura
So what if it fit the plans of the Sith? The way the Jedi led the clones, the clones themselves found it admirable and respectable. Down to the point where some clones even called it perfect:
"They're good. No words needed. Perfect sync. Like clones in a way. Better. They're the best. That's why they command." -Clone Commander Bly, Star Wars Republic, issue 68
Er, no. The Imperials who were killing people left and right were doing so because most of them were core-world militants who A) despised the weakness of the former Republic and B) saw aliens and former Separatists as scum, untermenschen, and saw no problems in genociding them. Heck, if the Jedi DID commit massacres and didn't fight humanely, these later Imperials would just be encouraged to do so too, citing that their former Jedi superiors had no such problems when it comes to committing war crimes. If anything, had the Jedi agreed to the ARCs' suggestions of committing war crimes, you'll have clone troopers considering suicide due to the PTSD coming from killing civilians. Killing robots, Sep soldiers, and traitorous Jedi who attempted regicide is one thing, since those people fight back and the self-defense mechanism of the human being kicks in. Killing defenseless people will cause soldiers to snap and question the morality of their actions. Even the Nazis knew this, hence why they stopped having regular German army units kill undesirables after said army units began to complain of psychological stress from the killings, and had the unwanted shipped to concentration camps where they were killed far from prying eyes.
The objection does make sense. Because if the Jedi were the slave-owners of the clones, getting them to help arrest a treasonous chancellor would be as easy as Mace picking up a comlink and saying "The Chancellor has been conspiring with the Separatists. Execute Order 65."
The majority of the Cul'Vay'Dar still helped Jango make his clone slave army for pay. And Jango, being the leader of the Mandalorians, is the one who took the money to make the clone slave army in the first place. So the leader of the Mandalorians, and Mandalorian mercenaries, making a clone slave army for pay. Yes, that does mean that the Mandalorians were responsible for it, unless you want to count the Kaminoans too. You want to hold a single Jedi like Sifo Diyas, who was acting outside the Council's orders, as proof that the Jedi as a whole were responsible for enslaving the clones? Then the leader of the Mandos working with Mando mercenaries to create said clone slave army makes the Mandalorians just as guilty, if not even moreso, since the Jedi Sifo-Diyas only had minimal input before he died.
True, Jango did kill Jedi with his bare hands. But he was Mandalore, after all. You don't get to lead unless you fight harder among the Mandos, right?
If the Cul'Vay'Dar had any objections, they still outnumbered Jango and could have handed the man his ass on a plate or twisted his arm to give more rights to the clones. They didn't. They did as they were told, all for pay.
If they wanted mercies for the soldiers, they'd fight alongside them like the Jedi did and do their best to minimize casualties in combat.
Nothing would stop the Jedi from walking away from the situation, aside from the fact that the Republic will still use the clone slave army indoctrinated to be loyal to the state as canon fodder. So basically, the Jedi walking away would accomplish absolutely NOTHING. Either that, or the Jedi Order's refusal to fight could be used by Palpatine's propaganda media as "proof" that they have Separatist sympathies or ties to their old pal Dooku, which would then give the Chancellor the right to order the Clones to march on the Jedi Temple to eradicate "Separatist sympathizers." Hey, they were already on Coruscant, getting on the ships. All it takes is a simple about-face and an order from the Chancellor. An order that he would be all too happy to give.
Source? My quote from Traviss' blog.
No, but I do think it was funny that Traviss uses the word "Nazi" to describe Jedi fans, and yet the one time the Jedi DID act like Nazis, the Mandos were in bed with them. It's just something to laugh at whenever Traviss uses the N-word to describe the Jedi fans.
Actually, from how Lucas' own movie portrays it, the Jedi did a fine job for their first day as generals. They led the clones, the clones push back the CIS droids, and in a short while, a clone commander tells Yoda that the Seps are running scared. Quite a performance, compared to other films where shittier generals get their armies blown to hell and they have to pull back. If you disagree, blame Lucas.
Wookiees can fight, but waging a war is more than just fighting. As I said, Qui-Gon taught the Wookies how to MAINTAIN an army, a base, provide resources for a military operation, and so on. And of course, the Jedi were fighting wars long before the Wookiees entered the Republic, so the Jedi do know a thing or two about fighting.
I'm pretty sure the Republic populace in Legends knew who the fuck Sev'rance Tann was. After all, she blacked out Coruscant in the first month of the war. For the average twat in Coruscant, she was the reason they got a power outage in the heart of the Republic. Enough to the point where the Jedi appointed Echuu Shen-Jon, a man who lost a padawan to her, to HUNT HER DOWN and end her threat. When the Jedi resort to assassination and utilizing a man's search for revenge to end you, that means you are a threat to the Republic.
Nope, that quote from the classic BFII pretty much showed how Traviss' notes on the clone-Jedi relationship was absolutely wrong. Down to the point where clones who KNOW that they were going to betray the Jedi were getting cold feet. Not only with Aayla, but when they marched onto the Jedi Temple.
Uh, no. Mace didn't recognize Jango as the superior fighter. That quote notes how Mace is judging the threat level of Jango, but he doesn't lose his balls. Instead, he takes a saber to the man's neck, and we all know what happens. Which was prophesied back in KOTOR 2
"Perhaps your people fought their last battle at Malachor V, and you have been dying ever since, a quiet death that will last centuries...until all that remains is their code, their history, and in the end, the shell of their armor upon the shell of a man, too easily slain by Jedi."
-Kreia, to Canderous Ordo, KOTOR 2
You do realize that ARC Trooper was berating Padawans, right? Not full Jedi Knights? Even Jedi Knights aren't that confident that their Padawans can handle everything, and they feel the need to keep them on a short leash, so an ARC Trooper not being confident in fighting alongside Padawans isn't that strange. As we've seen with Anakin and Obi-Wan, knights and masters don't really have a high view of a Padawan's fighting strength.
And yet the very same Jedi managed to kill 300 Mandos at Galidraan, with only Republic militia backing them up. Down to the point where a wash-out Padawan with daddy issues killed 20 of them. Go figure.
"The casualties on both sides were heavy, with Jango being the only survivor out of at least three hundred Mandalorians. The Jedi handed Jango over to the Governor of Galidraan, and the Mandalorian was sold into slavery."
Obi-Wan was portrayed as a General Ripper who, in Null-ARC Commando Ordo's words, was a "glory seeker who wastes too many men." The Jedi bashing got really thick in the Order 66 novel. Which is kinda rich, considering that in other depictions, Kenobi is far less a glory hog and more of a stick in the mud who WOULDN'T go for glory but instead seek the mission's success.
They could have had the Mandalorians be beaten by someone else other than the Jedi. Like that one time, when a bunch of hood rats in smuggler ships working with Republic forces DESTROYED A MANDALORIAN BLOCKADE during the war between the Republic and the True Sith. In that battle, yes, the Mandos won the great honor of defeating the Jedi, only for smugglers to kick their ass with the help of the Republic military. Talk about snatching defeat from the jaws of victory, eh?
Actually, the Mandalorians were doing well when they fought the Republic and nothing but the Republic during the Mandalorian Wars. The gods of war were on their side despite the Republic being bigger and having the wealth and manpower of the core worlds. The Mandalorians had the war in the bag until the Jedi showed up and kicked their tails. But unlike the Clone Wars-era Mandalorians who kept whining about Galidraan, the Mandalorians of that timeline actually respected the people who nearly wiped them out, and some like Canderous even chose to kill in the name of Revan, the one Jedi who caused the largest number of Mandalorian deaths in Jedi and Mandalorian history. Galidraan was a fucking bug bite compared to what Revan did to the Mandalorians, and yet the Mandos whined more about the former than the latter.
Not really, no. If you saw that fight, Ulic was fighting with nothing but a melee weapon and acrobatics, while Mandalore had a Basilisk War Droid. When Ulic destroyed that, Mandalore told him to put aside his lightsaber and fight with Mandalorian hand-axes. Ulic still kicked his ass despite all the limits placed on him. That is why Mandalore decided to join Ulic when Ulic spared him. Ulic was a better Mandalorian than even Mandalore himself could aspire to be. And again, that's a mark against Mandalore, because he could have won that war conventionally and kept his clans free of Sith control, especially since Ulic wasn't the one to ask for a duel. The last thing you do is challenge a Dark Jedi to a melee duel unless you're a Jedi yourself.
The only thing I'll give credit for is Mandalore being loyal to Ulic and the Mandalorians being capable of fighting through the Republic's finest. They weren't able to defeat the Jedi. When they fought the primitives of Onderon, who were allied with the Jedi, they lost. Horribly. They lost Mandalore, who was mauled to death by wild animals.
No, that assertion is still consistent, since the fact that Mandalorians burned worlds in their wake was something characters keep talking about in the KOTOR games-and we saw it in the KOTOR comics. TWICE. First on the Cathar world, then Serroco. Yes, they drafted people from the worlds they captured, but they also destroyed many other worlds, which made the Revanchists thirsty for Mandalorian blood. Unlike Revan during his campaign against the Republic, where he strove to capture worlds intact, the Mandalorians, Canderous included, were okay with destroying whole worlds or at least part of a world just to win.
Well, according to Canderous, the Jedi used intelligent tactics and strategies all the time:
“Once the Jedi Revan had taken charge, things began to turn against us. The Republic fleets began to use more than just basic tactics. Feints, counterattacks, mass deceptions, Revan was a genius in the field. Revan abandoned worlds of their defenders so that others would be too fortified to strike, and he was willing to make sacrifices in order to advance goals. And in the end, Revan proved too much for us. It was by the actions of one person, the Jedi Revan, that the Republic prevailed. Revan’s strategies and tactics defeated the best of us. Even Mandalore himself was taken aback by the ferocity, the tenacity, and the subtlety of Revan’s plans. Revan fought us to a standstill and then began pushing us back. We really didn’t have a chance. Mandalore himself was killed at the hands of the Jedi Revan. The best of us could not defeat him!”
-Canderous Ordo, Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic 1, on the topic of the Jedi Revan
“We thought we would triumph easily over such ‘noble’ and ‘compassionate’ leaders. Those were weaknesses we easily exploited in the past. You turned a demoralized, defeated mess, into a coordinated army. You brought tactics, backbone, and above all else, victory to them.”
-Canderous Ordo, AKA Mandalore the Preserver, Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic 2, to the Jedi Exile Meetra Surik, concerning how they changed the Republic war effort.
So it seems that the Jedi were more than capable of just hollow victories where most of their forces died. According to a top Mando general who later became their leader, Revan was a genius in the field, whose tactics and strategies tore the Mandalorians to shreds. His Jedi turned a demoralized, defeated Republic army, and gave them tactics, backbone, coordination, and victory. And guess what? Most of these Jedi went to Jedi school to learn. They didn't learn from Republic military leaders or some military school. They learned at the feet of Jedi Masters and used what they learned on the battlefield. Which included the tactics and strategies that tore the Mandalorians to shreds.
The Secret Sith Empire was KOTOR 2's doing. And again, it's another case of the Mandos not being as strong as they're hyped up to be. Mandos joining the True Sith should have been the end for the Republic. Instead, the 'Pubs beat the shit out of both of them by the end of the vanilla SWTOR story. Down to the point where the Sith Empire was collapsing and the Mandos who were paid to win the war couldn't win it for shit.
The New Sith Wars encompassed the 1000-year period from 2000 BBY to 1000 BBY. That included the campaign against the Dark Underlord.
No, my assessment is still correct. The True Mandos start killing people on behalf of some governor, said governor was a Death Watch spy and rats them out to the Jedi, the Jedi come in and ask Jango to drop everything, Jango doesn't obey and the battle is met. Also, Dooku didn't quit the Jedi Order because of that-he quit because Qui-Gon got killed by a Sith Lord and the Jedi weren't hunting down the other Sith, so Dooku left to go and kill the other Sith, only for said Sith to entice him to join forces because they both hate the corrupt and failing Republic.
The Filoniverse's timeline doesn't count for Legends.
Eh, no. The Jedi have been objectively proven to be better at war than the Mandos due to them winning almost every war they get into. At most, the Mandos repeat the pattern of joining the Sith, or attacking the Republic, getting their asses kicked by the Jedi, repeat. For at least three times, before they wised up and joined the Jedi in the New Sith Wars for money. The Jedi won every war they fought and only lost due to treachery from within their own ranks and the Republic betraying them.
Legacy of the Force, which posits that Jaina needs to learn to be a Mando to fight a Sith.
Except again, the games only do that because of the lore. And the lore says that Jedi are actually good in hand-to-hand fights. With or without lightsabers. You'd need a Mandalore like Canderous or Jango to kill the average Jedi in melee, and even then, they won't stand a chance against a powerful Jedi like Revan or Anakin.
It's the plot of the fucking book. Jaina goes to train with Fett to learn how to kill her brother, when Fett knows how to kill JEDI and her target's a SITH LORD. Two very, different things. The tactics against a Sith are different from tactics employed by a Jedi-killing bounty hunter who wasn't even the best Jedi-killer around.
If Darth Vader wasn't holding back, he'd have crushed Fett's windpipe with a glare. Or made him blow his own brains out. He didn't want to kill Fett because he could use Boba as a future asset to track targets. If he wanted Fett dead, Force Crush would have ended the fight in 3 seconds.
Not really. The Sith usually get close to victory, but it's their infighting that kills them. Exar Kun War, the Jedi Civil War, Great Galactic Wars, New Sith Wars, so on. They consistently beat the Jedi on the field and only lose due to infighting. The Mandalorians are usually united when fighting the Jedi, and they still lose horribly. Down to the point where they got nearly eradicated TWICE by the Jedi.
You do realize that one Sith was distracted, right? Context? What's that? He was focused on punishing one guy and gets shot from behind. Kinda like what happened to Palps. If Palps was facing Vader, the latter wouldn't have a chance, even if Vader was at full battle prep. Also, you really think a Sith is dumb enough to let a Mando surround him? Aside from the fact that Sith Orders like the One Sith and the True Sith have Sith up the wazoo (meaning one Sith Lord is usually flanked by lesser Sith) you also have the fact that everything Mandos throw at them, they can throw back and kill you with it. Oh, and they usually have goons too, so the numbers game actually favors them if you're not going to go for 1v1. Hey, if you think having multiple Mandos fight ONE Sith is fair, then a Sith calling on a couple dozen Imp soldiers and several apprentices would be fair game too, huh?
Also, Jacen is far more powerful than that One Sith. He was a member of the Skywalker clan gone over to the Dark Side. He'd be at Palpatine or Vader levels of strength. Last time I checked, no Mando ever got close to killing those two, not unless you want to count Maul and his brother getting a few hits in during their duel.
Outside of the one time where the Mandos worked with the Alliance, most of the time, the "True Mandalorians" aren't moral at all. At their best day, they work for assholes with fat wallets for pay. At their worst, they kill people for money or train clone slave armies for pay. So no, they're not moral at all. Stop pretending that they are. There's a reason why most SW EU fans see Boba Fett and other Mandos as murderous assholes who kill things for pay. Maybe the Mandos were moral under Fenn Shysa during the Rebellion years, (and maybe the Mandos during the beginning of the Sith-Imperial War) because they were genuinely fighting for freedom for the galaxy, but outside of that, the Mandos are bad guys who kill people for pay. Stop pretending that they're moral. You don't see Sith or Imperial fans like me arguing the Sith/the Empire are saints, do you? I love those assholes BECAUSE they're assholes, and they're honest about it. They work to bring about a greater good with bringing order to the galaxy, but they're not going to pretend like they're the second coming of Mother Teresa. They're very immoral people who use immoral deeds to create what they percieve as the greater good, but they don't try to cover up the fact that they're murderous bastards.
Other Lucasarts-approved fiction show the Jedi killing the Mandos rather handily, from the Old Republic games to Jango's backstory. So it's kind of an even split.
No shit, Leia is a bigshot Alliance leader.
Komari Vosa says it herself that she killed 20 Mandalorians during "that day." Are you saying that her words in the Bounty Hunter game aren't canon? And official sources state that 300 Mandos were on Galidraan.
The Mandalorian Neo-Crusaders didn't even try to hide the fact that they were murderous bastards. They just saw war as a way of life and waged war on anyone that can provide a fight. Canderous was even candid about blowing up a whole city to destroy a Republic shield device. The only greater good they were striving for was to turn the Republic into a military state where they would use the wealth of the core worlds to provide for arms and warships to fuel the Republic's growth. Otherwise, they annihilated anyone they came across who they wanted to fight.
Except Lucas would probably say otherwise, and one Grand Admiral having that opinion doesn't make it true. That could have just been a hallucination brought on by something else. Also, if that vision were true, then the Sith are right, since their religion IS conflict and growth. They have the same beliefs as the Mandos, except they allow for backstabbing and they apply said warlike beliefs to the Force while the Mandos use nukes and Basilisk War Droids.
Yes, Mandalore the Indomitable respected Ulic after the latter beat him. Which explains why I like him too, but the Neo-Crusaders are more powerful.
Valorum still kept sending Jedi to military hotspots, like that one place in Naboo where a military blockade of armed warships was harassing the locals. Oops. Looks like he didn't practice what he preached.
No, it's not arrogant to expect people to NOT be whiny when they lose at their own game. It's called "manners." When you lose, be it a card game or a war, you take it with your chin up and do your best to learn from what happened. The Mandalorians' portrayal of being salty about Galidraan ruins their character when in previous portrayals, they looked at their losses and did their best to learn from said loss. (Which was how Mandalore the Indomitable figured out that Lady Keto was a backstabbing bitch.)
Again, the official sources list 300 Mandalorians, and the Bounty Hunter game even states that Komari Vosa killed 20 of them.
According to Traviss, Celts. But the Mandos I loved were Spartans in space.
Considering how long YOUR posts are, you should practice what you preach.
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>walls of text
>walls of text everywhere
I've been quoted in a few parts and plan to reply when I can. This thread jumped 2 whole pages overnight.
Also, I haven't seen a full blown Travis argument since the good old days of theforce.net.
>walls of text everywhere
I've been quoted in a few parts and plan to reply when I can. This thread jumped 2 whole pages overnight.
Also, I haven't seen a full blown Travis argument since the good old days of theforce.net.
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Really takes you back, doesn't it?Also, I haven't seen a full blown Travis argument since the good old days of theforce.net.
BR55
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Before the dark days.
Before Disney.
LORD IMPERATOR
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To keep things brief and put a capstone to all this:
The Mandalorians do not have the moral high ground against the Jedi, nor did the Jedi enslave the clones. As much as Filoni Wars made mistakes, they rightfully pointed the blame for the clones being slave soldiers on Papa Palaptine, who basically created the whole war and who had total control over the clones during said war. Lucas makes it painfully clear during Order 66 who the slave-owner of the clones was, and it certainly wasn't the Jedi, otherwise Episode III would have been about Order 65 instead. The Jedi only accepted the burden of leadership because they've been protecting the galaxy and fighting summer wars for a thousand years (like in TPM) to keep the Republic afloat, and if the clones outside Traviss' works are any indication, they did a good job, especially when the clones get cold feet executing Order 66 or when they describe the Jedi Generals as "the best." So if anything, Lucas and the rest of the Prequel-era authors showed the Jedi in a positive light due to their battle tactics and powers leading clones from one victory to the next. Which was more good news for Lucas, since he marketed these Jedi heroes as if they were his answer to the Justice League, with books, games, comics, and action figures about these Jedi Heroes of the Clone Wars. Which of course, made him filthy rich. He wouldn't have done that if he viewed the Jedi as morally ambiguous or evil slave-drivers.
The Mandalorians were at their best not when they were whining about the Jedi and how the Jedi suck, but when they actually exercised their power and left the galaxy trembling in fear during the Mandalorian Wars. Or when they used their skills and fighting power to help free the galaxy from the Empire during the Galactic Civil War. In the former, they were crusaders who deified war, implacable, murderous opponents that basically amounted to Grand Moff Tarkin but with nicer armor and Basilisk War Droids. In the latter, they were Braveheart-style freedom fighters who gave a shit about the freedom of the galaxy and fought alongside the Jedi and the Alliance to ensure that people were freed from the tyrannical grasp of the Empire. Those were the Mandalorians I grew up loving. Not mercs who work for money who have an odd fascination for trying to seize the moral high ground from the Jedi.
Quite frankly, it's funny that they had a Null-ARC named after Canderous Ordo acting like a whiner about the Jedi, when the actual Canderous Ordo praised a Jedi who mass-murdered the Mandalorians in an epic show of strength and cold-hard determination. The Mandalorians worship strength and their preferred way of living is war, so it stands to reason that when someone beats them in war, they don't whine about it like how the Mandos whined about the Jedi after Galidraan, they respect the people who beat them, and sometimes even begin taking orders from them, be it Ulic Qel-Droma, Darth Maul, or Darth Revan. Canderous was happily gutting Sith renegades for the glory of Revan the moment he found out that the guy who beat his people was the man he was working for all along. And his reasons for doing so, ie. "Revan beat us at our own game and proved he was the better fighter" makes total sense when the Mandalorians prize strength in battle above all things. To serve the greatest warriors of the age would be the greatest honor for warriors who prized strength above all. At least Filoni Wars got that right when Mandos started serving Maul because he made Pre Vizsla his bitch.
The Null-Arc troopers whined about how much of an ass Obi-Wan Kenobi is. The "Mauldalorians" crushed Kenobi by the nuts, kidnapped his girlfriend, and gutted her in front of him just to show him how much of a powerless wuss he really was. I'll take the latter over the former any day. At least they exchange the whining with action that forces in more character development.
But to get back to Disney Star Wars, they're practically throwing everything but the kitchen sink at the wall to make things work. The Mandalorian show can keep things afloat, for now, until the SJW writers move in and start screwing things up again, like they did with the last few Clone Wars episodes and the Sequel Trilogy. But everything from the dying toy sales, to the decimation of the ST's plotline with Rise of Skywalker, and the parks closing down, means that Disney really should have kept that $4 billion and let Lucas keep Star Wars. It would have saved them a lot of trouble down the line. Now they've borrowed $8 billion and there's no inkling of the wound closing for Disney. They're gonna be in deep, deep doodoo by the end of this year, let alone the end of the decade.
The Mandalorians were at their best not when they were whining about the Jedi and how the Jedi suck, but when they actually exercised their power and left the galaxy trembling in fear during the Mandalorian Wars. Or when they used their skills and fighting power to help free the galaxy from the Empire during the Galactic Civil War. In the former, they were crusaders who deified war, implacable, murderous opponents that basically amounted to Grand Moff Tarkin but with nicer armor and Basilisk War Droids. In the latter, they were Braveheart-style freedom fighters who gave a shit about the freedom of the galaxy and fought alongside the Jedi and the Alliance to ensure that people were freed from the tyrannical grasp of the Empire. Those were the Mandalorians I grew up loving. Not mercs who work for money who have an odd fascination for trying to seize the moral high ground from the Jedi.
Quite frankly, it's funny that they had a Null-ARC named after Canderous Ordo acting like a whiner about the Jedi, when the actual Canderous Ordo praised a Jedi who mass-murdered the Mandalorians in an epic show of strength and cold-hard determination. The Mandalorians worship strength and their preferred way of living is war, so it stands to reason that when someone beats them in war, they don't whine about it like how the Mandos whined about the Jedi after Galidraan, they respect the people who beat them, and sometimes even begin taking orders from them, be it Ulic Qel-Droma, Darth Maul, or Darth Revan. Canderous was happily gutting Sith renegades for the glory of Revan the moment he found out that the guy who beat his people was the man he was working for all along. And his reasons for doing so, ie. "Revan beat us at our own game and proved he was the better fighter" makes total sense when the Mandalorians prize strength in battle above all things. To serve the greatest warriors of the age would be the greatest honor for warriors who prized strength above all. At least Filoni Wars got that right when Mandos started serving Maul because he made Pre Vizsla his bitch.
The Null-Arc troopers whined about how much of an ass Obi-Wan Kenobi is. The "Mauldalorians" crushed Kenobi by the nuts, kidnapped his girlfriend, and gutted her in front of him just to show him how much of a powerless wuss he really was. I'll take the latter over the former any day. At least they exchange the whining with action that forces in more character development.
But to get back to Disney Star Wars, they're practically throwing everything but the kitchen sink at the wall to make things work. The Mandalorian show can keep things afloat, for now, until the SJW writers move in and start screwing things up again, like they did with the last few Clone Wars episodes and the Sequel Trilogy. But everything from the dying toy sales, to the decimation of the ST's plotline with Rise of Skywalker, and the parks closing down, means that Disney really should have kept that $4 billion and let Lucas keep Star Wars. It would have saved them a lot of trouble down the line. Now they've borrowed $8 billion and there's no inkling of the wound closing for Disney. They're gonna be in deep, deep doodoo by the end of this year, let alone the end of the decade.
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Not no, but HELL NO. This just might be enough to actually start an actual war.
Even if it is not Rey or Asohka (which may be worse in my opinion), its an absolutely unneeded and actually damaging storyline. Luke gets trained by Yoda the story is clear that Yoda holds the position as mentor/master to Luke at this stage in the OT. Not at any time were other Jedi, force users, whatever mentioned as a possibility nor did Luke make mention of this in ROTJ. This would actually negatively impact the storyline of the OT and thy keep doing this whether out of ignorance or arrogance. I cant take this anymore from these people.
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To be fair, during all that time, Ahsoka was still alive. So what in the blazes was she doing while Luke was getting his hand chopped off by his old man? Plowing Lux Bonterri in some Onderonian beach resort?