Star Wars Griefing Thread (SPOILERS) - Safety off

[LORD IMPERATOR]

I was with you until you did the no true scotsman fallacy here to determine who is fan and who is not, and gave malice as a cause rather than ignorance in the form of only watching it once. Not cool dude.

TFA is a film that gets worse the more you rewatch it or think about it, and it's clear they only watched it once much like they do with most Half in the Bag shows. Rey for example only truly gets bad once you take her actions and being past the first third of the movie, since that part with her in the wastes was actually pretty well done IMO; it actually was nice to see some slow pacing at that point. Then she instantly knows how to fly machines with no explanation and can beat down trained Dark Jedi.

JarJar tries to prevent your brain from noticing that, but it will if you reflect on it. I had a similar set of realization for example with Prometheus after watching it, which also rapes the shit out of a franchise I love.

I'm sorry for using the "No True Scotsman" trope here, but I'm pretty sure that anyone who loves the Original Trilogy doesn't want to see everything the heroes fought for get thrown in the trash can just so Instant Jedi Just Add Feminism can steal the glory from the OG cast. I mean, even Dark Empire, which brought back the Emperor, had Luke and some other Jedi kill the Emperor for good, so it showed some character development. In ROTJ, he was helpless against the Emperor, but in Dark Empire, he beat the Emperor fair and square. And RLM has basically fed off the malice against the prequels, so basically, that's where my train of thought went.

Rey broke the series for me in my first viewing of the film. At that point, I just wrote off TFA as a film that would have been good on its own, if it wasn't a Star Wars movie that was meant as a sequel to Episode VI. At least in the Prequels, the same lessons applied. When Anakin tried charging at Dooku without backup or proper training, he gets his ass kicked, just like Luke did when he faced Vader. The Prequels and OT had a certain consistency between the two that showed you the same guy made both, whereas the ST clearly was just made in a corporate boardroom.

I mean, imagine if the good guys were in charge and they were chasing down some elusive threat instead. Have the bad guys be weakened to the point where they're desperate, and they find a new source of power by the end which would make them a threat in the next two movies. Maybe the Empire split into pieces and some pieces made peace with the New Republic while others kept fighting. Maybe the Imperials who still keep up the fight have their Star Destroyers be held together by duct tape and rivets, with missing parts and guns that are so poorly maintained they sometimes explode in combat. Maybe there's not enough Stormtroopers and the majority of the Imperial Army are poorly-trained, barely-equipped conscripts, while the remaining Stormtroopers are at the back, guns pointed at the conscripts so as to shoot them if they attempt to flee or defect. Maybe when the heroes land a shot on a Stormtrooper leading some Imperial Army conscripts, the conscripts either flee or even defect to the Republic side because they've got no love for the Empire. And then maybe the Imperial renegades bump across a hidden cloning facility or a droid factory left untouched after the Clone Wars, along with some very resource-rich planets, and they start pumping out droids or clones to supplement their waning forces. Then the next film can begin with a surprisingly well-equipped enemy attacking all over the galaxy, testing the defenses of the good guys and dividing their attention, then in the third film, a fully-rebuilt Empire with weapons tech as good as the old empire or even better drops all pretense and attacks the Republic at full force, with the enemy leader being some Imperial Dark Jedi obsessed with revenge over the defeat of the Empire, a man who spent decades' worth of time in training and is now as strong as old man Palpatine, setting the stage for a final fight with Luke Skywalker.

But no, we just had to rehash everything from the past. And not even in a good way.

JJ Abrams is on several nerd shit lists now, isn't he? He managed to unite Star Trek and Star Wars fans against him. They can finally stop bitching at each other just so they can unite in their mutual hatred of him.

 

[Creep3r]

Here is Filoni on the subject:
Go to 02:51 on this video:

Here he is talking about it on a podcast:

I find it amusing how Filoni's interview there (as contradictory and indecisive as it might be) is not listed anywhere on Wookieepedia, and that they still consider Fett's status as a Mando ambiguous despite the Mandalorian showrunners and most recent guides all stating that he is one, but they won't accept it because Matt "Porgcuck" Martin and Pablo Hidalgo ("men" who have repeatedly said that they don't give a shit about continuity and have lied repeatedly (Edit: lol Hidalgo limited who can view his tweets and deleted the incriminating tweet, fucking coward) despite being nothing more than glorified proofreaders) don't want Fett listed as one along with any info on Bothans to not be listed, which all suspiciously coincide with the interests of Wookieepedo's top contributor who undoes any changes that might go against Martin or Hidalgo's wishes, despite these fucks hardly being on the same page.

But sure, just keep trusting these deceitful and indifferent turbocucks Wookieepedo, its worked wonders for you so far considering the abhorrent state of your site as disinfo and vandalism runs wild, references and quotes from Lucas and others go unarchived as you put more focus on archiving Aphra and Reylo quotes from authors and leaving troll edits unchanged that claim Duins are bigger than 2 fucking Death Stars. This and so much more is why I always stress to not take everything listed on Wookieepedo as absolute. They can't even go two pages without losing consistency due to being too lazy to update anything unrelated to Ahsoka, Aphra, Rey and Kylo these days.

 

[Mississippi Motorboater]

Jango and Boba are Mandalorians in the Expanded Universe, which is the only canon that matters.

I don't give a fuck about their Mando status in a storytelling continuity that'll probably ruin them both.

 

[LORD IMPERATOR]

I find it amusing how Filoni's interview there (as contradictory and indecisive as they might be) is not listed anywhere on Wookieepedia, and that they still consider Fett's status as a Mando ambiguous despite the Mandalorian showrunners and most recent guides all stating that he is one, but they won't accept it because Matt "Porgcuck" Martin and Pablo Hidalgo ("men" who have repeatedly said that they don't give a shit about continuity and have lied repeatedly (Edit: lol Hidalgo limited who can view his tweets and deleted the incriminating tweet, fucking coward) despite being nothing more than glorified proofreaders) don't want Fett listed as one along with any info on Bothans to not be listed, which all suspiciously coincide with the interests of Wookieepedo's top contributor who undoes any changes that might go against Martin or Hidalgo's wishes, despite these fucks hardly being on the same page.
View attachment 1526073
But sure, just keep trusting these deceitful and indifferent turbocucks Wookieepedo, its worked wonders for you so far considering the abhorrent state of you site as disinfo and vandalism runs wild, references and quotes from Lucas and others go unarchived as you put more focus on archiving Aphra and Reylo quotes from authors and leaving troll edits unchanged that claim Duins are bigger than 2 fucking Death Stars. This and so much more is why I always stress to not take everything listed on Wookieepedo as absolute. They can't even go two pages without losing consistency due to being too lazy to update anything unrelated to Ahsoka, Aphra, Rey and Kylo these days.

I was noticing that some Wookieepedia articles on Legends stuff were getting smaller and more downsized. Doesn't make sense for a site that used to get hits for Legends stuff.

By the way, I think we should set up a wiki for Star Wars Legends EU stuff exclusively. Who's with me?

Jango and Boba are Mandalorians in the Expanded Universe, which is the only canon that matters.

I don't give a fuck about their Mando status in a storytelling continuity that'll probably ruin them both.

Considering that the Mandalorians who denounced Jango and Boba's Mando heritage are Death Watch members and pacifists, it's more like they saw them as fake Mandos. But Filoni never gave us official quotes from Lucas discounting Jango's Mando heritage, and Lucas, when he was in charge, allowed all the authors to make Jango specifically Mandalorian.

The new canon's headed to the scrap heap anyways, it's not like it'll matter in the long run. Just add the Mandalorian to Legends canon (it's vague enough that it can fit) and let us go on our merry way to have a Thrawn trilogy show.

 

[Creep3r]

Jango and Boba are Mandalorians in the Expanded Universe, which is the only canon that matters.

I don't give a fuck about their Mando status in a storytelling continuity that'll probably ruin them both.

Oh don't get me wrong, I agree and I'm not saying Disney shit matters. I just thought this would be a good time to point out Disney's inconsistency on the matter correlates with how worthless Wookieepedia is as a reliable source of info.

I was noticing that some Wookieepedia articles on Legends stuff were getting smaller and more downsized. Doesn't make sense for a site that used to get hits for Legends stuff.

By the way, I think we should set up a wiki for Star Wars Legends EU stuff exclusively. Who's with me?



Considering that the Mandalorians who denounced Jango and Boba's Mando heritage are Death Watch members and pacifists, it's more like they saw them as fake Mandos. But Filoni never gave us official quotes from Lucas discounting Jango's Mando heritage, and Lucas, when he was in charge, allowed all the authors to make Jango specifically Mandalorian.

The new canon's headed to the scrap heap anyways, it's not like it'll matter in the long run. Just add the Mandalorian to Legends canon (it's vague enough that it can fit) and let us go on our merry way to have a Thrawn trilogy show.

Wookieepedo isn't the only one downsizing. Other SW related sites including SW.com deleted a shit ton of content related to pre-Disney material over the last few years, many of which served as references for Wookieepedo and other sites. And Wikis require too much free time and creepy dedication to maintain anyway, and nobody's got the time for that anymore sadly, and I'm fairly satisfied with my galaxy guide and essential guide copies, even if they have their own little hiccups here and there. Wookieepedo much like Disney Wars is just a lost cause, and they've always been pretty idiotic in how they maintain info anyway.

As for the Mandalorian show, I've said it multiple times that the best thing Disney can do is just move it outside of their nu-canon and just make it its own continuity to keep it as far away from the rest of their garbage like Aphra or the sequels. It may fit decently in Legends but quite frankly I'm not fond of the idea of the TLJ and TFA ballsack aliens that have appeared on the show joining up with old canon. SWTOR is already doing a shitty job in that area anyway.

 

[LORD IMPERATOR]

Oh don't get me wrong, I agree and I'm not saying Disney shit matters. I just thought this would be a good time to point out Disney's inconsistency on the matter correlates with how worthless Wookieepedia is as a reliable source of info.

Wookieepedo isn't the only one downsizing. Other SW related sites including SW.com deleted a shit ton of content related to pre-Disney material over the last few years, many of which served as references for Wookieepedo and other sites. And Wikis require too much free time and autistic dedication to maintain anyway, and nobody's got the tism and time for that anymore sadly, and I'm fairly satisfied with my galaxy guide and essential guide copies, even if they have their own little hiccups here and there. Wookieepedo much like Disney Wars is just a lost cause, and they've always been pretty idiotic in how they maintain info anyway.

As for the Mandalorian show, I've said it multiple times that the best thing Disney can do is just move it outside of their nu-canon and just make it its own continuity to keep it as far away from the rest of their garbage like Aphra or the sequels. It may fit decently in Legends but quite frankly I'm not fond of the idea of the TLJ and TFA ballsack aliens that have appeared on the show joining up with old canon. SWTOR is already doing a shitty job in that area anyway.

What a truly sad day indeed. SW.com and Wookieepedia opened my eyes to the Expanded Universe. As a kid, I spent hours on those sites perusing everything. And yet now, they're mere shadows of their former selves. Ah well, that's what Amazon is for. Anyone who wants to buy SW books from the past can go order it from them.

I suppose we can just write off the ST aliens on the Mandalorian as some lab rat's weird experiments or something, instead of natural species in the Legends universe.

 

[Adamska]

I was noticing that some Wookieepedia articles on Legends stuff were getting smaller and more downsized. Doesn't make sense for a site that used to get hits for Legends stuff.

It makes sense though if you remember that Poodoopedia's main contributors are bribed Disney shills, or actual staffers from Porgcuck or Fatfuck Hidalgo's teams that play CorpSec. Disney doesn't want anyone to be able to realize that their shitty books and comics are rip-offs of stories already told... but better.

It's effectively erasing history, and it's proof this shitty wiki is owned by Disney IMO, for all they claim they don't own it.

By the way, I think we should set up a wiki for Star Wars Legends EU stuff exclusively. Who's with me?

It requires a level of autism and dedication that I lack personally. Especially since you'd have to deal with these fucksticks and Disney employees making alts repeatedly and hijacking certain pages as theirs.

Considering that the Mandalorians who denounced Jango and Boba's Mando heritage are Death Watch members and pacifists, it's more like they saw them as fake Mandos. But Filoni never gave us official quotes from Lucas discounting Jango's Mando heritage, and Lucas, when he was in charge, allowed all the authors to make Jango specifically Mandalorian.

Yeah, but Porgcuck and Fatfuck said they weren't like one time, and now these paid shills and staffers from LFL who are pretending to be fans and not employees are running with it. Why? Probably because all pre-disney fanstuff must be shat on. Given Disney's super-autistic obsession with pissing on all the stuff they didn't make out of childish spite, this fits their MO.

The new canon's headed to the scrap heap anyways, it's not like it'll matter in the long run. Just add the Mandalorian to Legends canon (it's vague enough that it can fit) and let us go on our merry way to have a Thrawn trilogy show.

Thrawn got yeeted and slaughtered by farting space whales summoned by a street rat, and that shit won't get retconned until you axe fucking everyone from Lucasfilms since Kennedy already purged the nonconformists to her plans, and most of the execs at Disney IMO.

 

[cjv97]

Trawn got yeeted and slaughtered by farting space whales summoned by a street rat, and that shit won't get retconned until you axe fucking everyone from Lucasfilms since Kennedy already purged the nonconformists to her plans, and most of the execs at Disney IMO.

I hate that ending it look so lame and lazy still but of course it not worse as Grievous getting rekt by Gungan no matter what the argument is. If only someone can retconned the Gungan episode where Grievous actually destroyed 18 Militiagung before being capture.

Off Topic

Also I think it stupid how Ventress is superior than Grievous, even making Grievous jealous of her by saying "I'm always better than you" in the episode, which make no sense cause he doesn't care about anything that Force related like Jedi and Sith. He just wanted to avenge his people.

 

[HandsomeDan]

R1 was not a kids movie, there weren't any likeable characters other than K2SO, and I have no idea why you'd even put out merch for that.

It actually is perfect for toys, think of all the soldier and pilot figures, vehicles, weapons there could have been. In the 90s those toys would have flown off of the shelves. Where are the Blue Squadron X-Wings? Where is the General Merrick Figure? RO was filled with incredible "war toy" candidates.

 

[Creep3r]

Thrawn got yeeted and slaughtered by farting space whales summoned by a street rat, and that shit won't get retconned until you axe fucking everyone from Lucasfilms since Kennedy already purged the nonconformists to her plans, and most of the execs at Disney IMO.

The most obnoxious thing about it is that his own creator has no say on the matter and is only allowed to make books that take place before Aladdin. And you know Zahn despite saying "this is fine... everything is fine" probably hates this and his lack of control considering how open he was about how little control he had over Mara Jade near the end of the character's history back when Lucasfilm didn't threaten its employees.

On another related note, to be quite frank, what did nu-Thrawn even accomplish that made him deserving of all these books? Aside from acting as the show's saturday morning cartoon villain who gets foiled and mocked at every turn despite his supposedly "badass" moments that rely on him needlessly killing his own subordinates like some one dimensional cartoon tyrant because faceless goons are far easier to dispose of without raising the age rating.

And why should people care this much about expansions regarding a saturday morning villain who wasn't introduced until nearing the show's end and who never had a single victory that wasn't followed by some sort of cartoonish comeuppance? This isn't the guy who was part of some epic three-part anthology that threatened the whole galaxy, became a stand-in-emperor, and even went toe-to-toe with its most iconic heroes during their prime. This is some yutz who got his ass whooped by a 16 year old and his sidekicks only to end up as a space whale booty bitch. And the biggest irony in what I'm saying is that said 16 year old Aladdin and his sidekicks are technically now more accomplished than Luke Skywalker and his crew... They founded the Rebellion, they defeated the Empire's biggest military force, cucked Vader, Tarkin, its moffs, the best jedi hunters in the galaxy and the Emperor himself all within the spawn of a few months, found the control room of the gods while Aladdin cucked the Emperor in person who even learned his name, and this Aladdin stand-in learned and mastered more than Luke did during his long life while Ahsoka became the true Jedi Councilor/Gandalf of the Galaxy while Luke turned into an even more cucked Saruman.

 

[James Roancrest]

Thrawn.

This was the biggest sin Aladdin Wars committed. They made Thrawn a Saturday morning cartoon villain, a schmuck who was defeated by a teenaged Jedi Padawan and some space whales.

 

[Cyril Sneer]

Spoiler: long

I also gave religious reasons, but you ignored those since the desire to pork Traviss clearly seems more accurate based on response.

You've accused me of quite a laundry list of thing thus far. If I don't respond to someone immediately, I must be a coward, if I take the time and effort to respond to someone in detail I must be an autistic idiot with no sense of decorum, if I try to respond in a calm and thoughtful way it must be because I'm trying to mislead people, if I defend someone I must want to fuck them, if I call attention to one accusation for being particularly senseless it must mean that I'm acknowledging it to be valid and so on and so forth. By any reasonable definition, I think you're contorting yourself into just about the dictionary definition of someone arguing in bad faith.

Even though he's showing using the actual creator's own words why you're wrong, and how you keep blithly ignoring that Sidious and the Republic used the clones.

He's not, though. If you actually read his posts, he's simply presuming to read Lucas's mind without referencing any of his statements on anything.

Nice goalpost shift. Also nice attempt to project your own refusal to accept that most creators rejected Traviss' takes and that hers fall flat in what came before and after. I'm not the one who keeps trying to accuse the Jedi of being slavemasters for the clones, despite the movie telling any 5 year old kid that the Republic and Palpie did that.

It doesn't take a genius to see that the Jedi were making themselves party to a great injustice by taking command of a slave-army. There are signs throughout the Prequels that the Jedi Order is starting to fall apart, first in TPM with the conflict between confident Qui-Gon and the fearful High Council, then in AOTC when we learn that Dooku, formerly a highly respected Jedi Master has left the Order and now sides with the Sith and the Separatists, and that a deceased member of the High Council arranged to have a secret clone army produced for the Republic (which calls back to Padme's comment about slavery being illegal in the Republic in TPM), the Jedi allowing Anakin on the High Council but not granting him the rank of Master, the Jedi holding secret Council meetings, the Jedi trying to illegally remove the Chancellor from power and so on and so forth.

Intentional denseness is why most people give up with you given how desperately you ignore the creator's own words and final sayings due to them pissing you off. Nice fake attempt to pretend you actually have a burden of proof that would stop you from pitching a fit; you pissed away any chance of that when you deny what Lucas et al. for SW state in their own words.

Which "own words," Adam'ika? If I'm so very off-base in my reading of the thematic metanarrative of the Clone Wars/Prequels, I'd appreciate it if you could point out specifically where.

I usually stop bothering with people like you, but nah. I'm going to keep going because again: If I can actually talk about Filoni's fuck ups freely, I well on deserve that with Traviss and her own hatred of the base lore freely, without some sped flinging spaghetti for the author he wants to worship and/or fuck.

Traviss doesn't hate the base lore. If you actually read her books you would know that.

It made me lol too, until I realized that..I hate the "Star Wars Fanbase" jerking off Boba Fett and the only reason the "Mandalorian" shit is at all popular is because a bunch of idiots like Boba Fett for some reason.

What's wrong with that, though? I mean, why should it be a problem that Boba Fett, and by extension whatever culture created his armor, is popular in the Star Wars fandom?

Nothing wrong with being able to kill strong force sensitives with good old fashioned blasters or tactics if you have the skill and planning to do so, or through just plain luck, a well timed trap or brute strength and intimidation a la Grievous is fun too.

Yes.

The problem is that there are those who consider the very notion that a Mando could be in any way inferior to another faction, especially a jedi or non-mando warrior, in terms of both combat and philosophy to be absolute heresy.

It's more the other way around, in my experience. To the best of my recollection, when Open Seasons first came out, few "Fandalorians" were salty about Jango's troops getting wiped out by the Jedi at Galidraan; they were more focused on how badass the comic portrayed Jango as, showing him taking down a half-dozen Jedi Knights single-handedly. Meanwhile, some Jedi superfans whom I knew at the time were going absolutely berserk, because their Bible was Kevin Anderson's Tales comics, which stakes the implicit position that only Force-users can defeat other Force-users, and overpowers them to spectacular degrees to justify it. Even in this ongoing slapfight I'm having with our newest regular contributor, I'm just trying to make the point that can fight and kill Jedi/Sith, not that they should inevitably be victorious in violent encounters with the latter, but my Sith fanboying opposite number appears to be insulted by the very idea that, again, a Force-user could be defeated in a fight by anyone other than a Force-user.

The opposite is just as bad, ie "jedi is da bestest" is just as bad as "mando is da bestest" as having a faction boner is always pretty gay and autistic when really all factions should be equally fun to enjoy instead of engaging in pointlessly autistic "my guy is stronger than your guy" debates, and any moral differences should be left open to interpretation instead of flat out declaring my guys are good and your guys are not. Fans should just say what makes their guys great instead of having to resort to some autistic dick measuring contest by constantly bashing one another or trying to peg each other down like "oh no jedis shouldn't be that strong! It makes mandos look weak! Boohoo!" and vice versa.

True.

The problem is Traviss usually prefers her guys to win and be the entire focus, and if they can't win in combat, then they must win in terms of philosophy/moral superiority which is even worse which goes against the very spiritual doctrine George enforces which contrasts with the Mandalorian's own secular ways and as Karen portrays them it doesn't allow enough room for interpretation.

Does she? Again, I'm not familiar with LOTF for reasons I've previously mentioned, so I can't comment on that, but despite having supposedly jettisoned their gods long ago, her Mandalorians are not a truly secular people: they retain certain religious rituals like the daily recitation of the names of the honored dead, and maintain a belief in an afterlife linked to the practice of said rituals (with her main POV Mandalorian character, Kal Skirata, taking it upon himself to try and ensure that as many Clones as possible acquire the prerequisites to enter Mandalorian heaven).

Hell, Traviss hardly paid much attention to non-mando characters as it was, as she didn't even know who Mara Jade was until she killed her off in Sacrifice (although to be fair that was a committee decision but to not know one of the biggest EU characters alongside Thrawn and then those in charge having her write for a character she hardly knew is just one big wtf all around, showing that she needed to stop spending so much time in her Mando bubble).

I wouldn't say that. She was probably the first (only?) author to write about the Clone Wars adventures of Luke's ex-girlfriend Callista, or to write anything at all about Jedi Master Djinn Altiss, neither of whom are portrayed in a critical fashion at all.

Here is Filoni on the subject:

To George, the Mandalorians, above all - dating back to Empire Strikes Back - are supercommandos. They’re a race of people that were a military. They can’t be so vagabond as they’ve appeared in the EU. They can’t be this group of people that are vastly different in paint job and paint scheme, because if you do that, they look too much, immediately, like a bunch of Boba Fetts. It robbed Boba Fett of his uniqueness.

Interesting that Wolfman Dave so readily reverted to the previous "vagabond" depiction for the live-action show.

Filoni never gave us official quotes from Lucas discounting Jango's Mando heritage...

I don't he's ever done the same for the allegation that TCW's Weimardalorians are Lucas's brainchild, either.

Just add the Mandalorian to Legends canon...

Stop invoking that accursed name.

 

[Ghostse]

It actually is perfect for toys, think of all the soldier and pilot figures, vehicles, weapons there could have been. In the 90s those toys would have flown off of the shelves. Where are the Blue Squadron X-Wings? Where is the General Merrick Figure? RO was filled with incredible "war toy" candidates.

I think it would have been a very hard sell for parents being that all the main cast die. I think the original plot idea for Rogue One, where it was just a SW-setting war film, you could have merched and had stuff like imperial/rebel roleplay kits.

They are trying something sort of like you're proposing with Lego starwars with their Action Battle/Battle Pack sets, but at about $4-5 a pop lego mini figs don't make the best toy soldiers. And its pretty much all OT stuff because there are no iconic ST battles.

And are you kidding? We've had the dumbass U-wings shoved down our throats ever since.

Stop trying to make U-wings a thing, U-wings will never be a thing.

 

[BR55]

You've accused me of quite a laundry list of thing thus far. If I don't respond to someone immediately, I must be a coward, if I take the time and effort to respond to someone in detail I must be an autistic idiot with no sense of decorum, if I try to respond in a calm and thoughtful way it must be because I'm trying to mislead people, if I defend someone I must want to fuck them, if I call attention to one accusation for being particularly senseless it must mean that I'm acknowledging it to be valid and so on and so forth. By any reasonable definition, I think you're contorting yourself into just about the dictionary definition of someone arguing in bad faith.

He's not, though. If you actually read his posts, he's simply presuming to read Lucas's mind without referencing any of his statements on anything.

It doesn't take a genius to see that the Jedi were making themselves party to a great injustice by taking command of a slave-army. There are signs throughout the Prequels that the Jedi Order is starting to fall apart, first in TPM with the conflict between confident Qui-Gon and the fearful High Council, then in AOTC when we learn that Dooku, formerly a highly respected Jedi Master has left the Order and now sides with the Sith and the Separatists, and that a deceased member of the High Council arranged to have a secret clone army produced for the Republic (which calls back to Padme's comment about slavery being illegal in the Republic in TPM), the Jedi allowing Anakin on the High Council but not granting him the rank of Master, the Jedi holding secret Council meetings, the Jedi trying to illegally remove the Chancellor from power and so on and so forth.

Which "own words," Adam'ika? If I'm so very off-base in my reading of the thematic metanarrative of the Clone Wars/Prequels, I'd appreciate it if you could point out specifically where.

Traviss doesn't hate the base lore. If you actually read her books you would know that.

What's wrong with that, though? I mean, why should it be a problem that Boba Fett, and by extension whatever culture created his armor, is popular in the Star Wars fandom?

Yes.

It's more the other way around, in my experience. To the best of my recollection, when Open Seasons first came out, few "Fandalorians" were salty about Jango's troops getting wiped out by the Jedi at Galidraan; they were more focused on how badass the comic portrayed Jango as, showing him taking down a half-dozen Jedi Knights single-handedly. Meanwhile, some Jedi superfans whom I knew at the time were going absolutely berserk, because their Bible was Kevin Anderson's Tales comics, which stakes the implicit position that only Force-users can defeat other Force-users, and overpowers them to spectacular degrees to justify it. Even in this ongoing slapfight I'm having with our newest regular contributor, I'm just trying to make the point that can fight and kill Jedi/Sith, not that they should inevitably be victorious in violent encounters with the latter, but my Sith fanboying opposite number appears to be insulted by the very idea that, again, a Force-user could be defeated in a fight by anyone other than a Force-user.

True.

Does she? Again, I'm not familiar with LOTF for reasons I've previously mentioned, so I can't comment on that, but despite having supposedly jettisoned their gods long ago, her Mandalorians are not a truly secular people: they retain certain religious rituals like the daily recitation of the names of the honored dead, and maintain a belief in an afterlife linked to the practice of said rituals (with her main POV Mandalorian character, Kal Skirata, taking it upon himself to try and ensure that as many Clones as possible acquire the prerequisites to enter Mandalorian heaven).

I wouldn't say that. She was probably the first (only?) author to write about the Clone Wars adventures of Luke's ex-girlfriend Callista, or to write anything at all about Jedi Master Djinn Altiss, neither of whom are portrayed in a critical fashion at all.

Interesting that Wolfman Dave so readily reverted to the previous "vagabond" depiction for the live-action show.

I don't he's ever done the same for the allegation that TCW's Weimardalorians are Lucas's brainchild, either.

Stop invoking that accursed name.

Hey Mando autist could you at least have the decency to quit removing the spoiler tag from your posts so we don't have look at that text wall of sperging?
Oh and your Mando waifus are still trash.

 

[Cyril Sneer]

Hey Mando autist could you at least have the decency to quit removing the spoiler tag from your posts so we don't have look at that text wall of sperging?

I'm keeping the spoiler tag on my separate, ongoing punchup with Stained Glass Vader.

Oh and your Mando waifus are still trash.

According to what criteria?

 

[LORD IMPERATOR]

Now that the Mando-sperg is back, I can now recall my experience after reading Open Seasons about Jango Fett's reign as Mandalore and the Jedi Order's culpability for the massacre of the Mandalorians at Galidraan.

Spoiler: JANGO FETT: OPEN SEASONS

And I've gotta say, Jango Fett is one horrible Mandalore, and the Jedi were not to blame at all. Maybe you can blame DOOKU, who was the leader of the Jedi in that battlefield, but not the Jedi in general who simply sent a strike team after getting a distress call about people getting killed, which is about as common sense as the cops sending in a SWAT team when someone calls them for an emergency.

I mean, come on, Jango worked for the governor of Galidraan KNOWING that the latter was sheltering Death Watch. He even told the governor so before the Jedi arrived. Why? Why work for someone whom you know is working for the enemy? At this point, was it a surprise the man lied to the Jedi about the Mandalorians, when even JANGO knew he was a rat for the DEATH WATCH? And when Jango gets to his men as the Jedi land, he ORDERS HIS MEN TO FIRE ON THEM. At that point, any blame that might befall the Jedi for eradicating the True Mandalorians is absolved. I don't care what galaxy you come from, if some dickhead is firing at you, you have every right to strike back and kill him. It's a survival instinct that every animal has programmed in their brains. Even fucking animals and CAVEMEN do it. You threaten their life, they attempt to kill you. It's about as natural as taking a shit.

When Jango blames the deaths of his men on the Jedi, it rings hollow when HE was the genius who ordered them to fire on the Jedi, leading to a battle where he got all his men killed. He could have tried to reason with the Jedi, explain to them that the governor ordered the Mandalorians to kill people, or he could have ordered his men to surrender to the Jedi so he can explain who ordered him to kill "political activists", especially since as a Sith fan, I've always found the criticism of the Jedi being too soft and not killing their prisoners to be rather true (HI DREAD MASTERS! AND EVERYONE ELSE IMPRISONED ON BELSAVIS IN SWTOR! PEOPLE WHOM THE REPUBLIC SHOULD HAVE EXECUTED!) The Jedi are too soft and are trained to spare people who surrender to them, Mace Windu being the only example I know of a Jedi who tried to execute a man who gave up. (Sidious) And Sidious was a Sith Lord. Fett and his men weren't Sith, so if they surrendered to the Jedi, the Jedi would treat them fairly and maybe even hear their side of the story once they drop their guns and submit.

Plus, Dooku blaming the Jedi Council for what happened on Galidraan also rings hollow, since he was the Jedi leader commanding the Jedi forces on that planet. It's also partially his fault that the Jedi there didn't spare the Mandalorians. He could have sent the Mandalorians a Jedi messenger to deliver his terms and given them time to stand down, or he could have tried to negotiate with Fett first, which is the traditional approach the Jedi have with groups they're about to fight. Instead, he deployed his Jedi with lightsabers on, issuing a threat as his first action. Dooku blames the Jedi Council, but for what? All the Council got was a message that some Mandos are murdering people, and they sent Dooku and some Jedi to settle things there. It was Dooku's job to lead the Jedi there, not the Council's. What, was the Council supposed to IGNORE a distress call about people getting killed?

The only people who knew that the Galidraan governor was working for the Death Watch was Jango Fett himself, which if anything, calls into question Jango's judgement as to why he would kill for a guy who was sheltering terrorists instead of telling the Jedi Council that the man was sheltering a Mandalorian splinter group which WANTS TO START ANOTHER MANDALORIAN WAR! The end where Dooku and Jango both blame the Jedi as a whole for what happened at Galidraan that led to the destruction of the True Mandalorians felt rather hollow to me, since in the comic's depiction of the Battle of Galidraan, BOTH MEN were responsible for getting the True Mandalorians killed. Dooku deployed his Jedi with lightsabers blazing, and Jango ordered his men to fire at the Jedi. Dooku was way too aggressive, and Jango chose to engage an enemy that were more than a match for his men.

In the end, Montross was right: Jango wasn't ready for the privilege of command after Jaster's death. Sure, Montross left Jaster to die, but Jaster fired him beforehand, telling Montross that he will be kicked out after the battle, so Montross no longer had an obligation to save the man since he was released from service by Jaster himself. Plus, Montross WAS the most experienced officer the True Mandalorians had aside from Jaster, and he was also RIGHT that Fett would get the Mandalorians killed. Which he did. Jango Fett fired the guy despite making two mistakes, even though logically, when experienced officers make mistakes on the battlefield, you either demote them or relegate them to the front lines while still using their experience in battle and their advice. Death Watch already used a job offer as a trap for the True Mandalorians to try and kill them. The fact that Jango WILLINGLY took another job offer from some random governor KNOWING that the man was a Death Watch mole goes to show that he didn't learn from Jaster's mistake.

Basically, like another work from Haden Blackman's stuff, this comic doesn't have the best portrayal of their characters, although he is great at making them look badass. Force Unleashed wasn't Vader's best portrayal as a character despite it displaying his powers faithfully, and in much the same vein, we see more of Jango being a badass here (taking out Jedi in melee) rather than Jango being a solid-headed man making logical decisions for his team. Dark Lord: Rise of Darth Vader portrayed Vader's character better, and the Bounty Hunter game portrayed Jango better, as a cynical loner who makes smart decisions on how to finish the hunt and track his targets. I suppose you can chalk that up to Jango learning a lesson after Galidraan and being more reserved, and his loner status was due to his mistake getting his men killed and him not wanting to repeat it again.

You've accused me of quite a laundry list of thing thus far. If I don't respond to someone immediately, I must be a coward, if I take the time and effort to respond to someone in detail I must be an autistic idiot with no sense of decorum, if I try to respond in a calm and thoughtful way it must be because I'm trying to mislead people, if I defend someone I must want to fuck them, if I call attention to one accusation for being particularly senseless it must mean that I'm acknowledging it to be valid and so on and so forth. By any reasonable definition, I think you're contorting yourself into just about the dictionary definition of someone arguing in bad faith.

He's not, though. If you actually read his posts, he's simply presuming to read Lucas's mind without referencing any of his statements on anything.

It doesn't take a genius to see that the Jedi were making themselves party to a great injustice by taking command of a slave-army. There are signs throughout the Prequels that the Jedi Order is starting to fall apart, first in TPM with the conflict between confident Qui-Gon and the fearful High Council, then in AOTC when we learn that Dooku, formerly a highly respected Jedi Master has left the Order and now sides with the Sith and the Separatists, and that a deceased member of the High Council arranged to have a secret clone army produced for the Republic (which calls back to Padme's comment about slavery being illegal in the Republic in TPM), the Jedi allowing Anakin on the High Council but not granting him the rank of Master, the Jedi holding secret Council meetings, the Jedi trying to illegally remove the Chancellor from power and so on and so forth.

Which "own words," Adam'ika? If I'm so very off-base in my reading of the thematic metanarrative of the Clone Wars/Prequels, I'd appreciate it if you could point out specifically where.

Traviss doesn't hate the base lore. If you actually read her books you would know that.

What's wrong with that, though? I mean, why should it be a problem that Boba Fett, and by extension whatever culture created his armor, is popular in the Star Wars fandom?

Yes.

It's more the other way around, in my experience. To the best of my recollection, when Open Seasons first came out, few "Fandalorians" were salty about Jango's troops getting wiped out by the Jedi at Galidraan; they were more focused on how badass the comic portrayed Jango as, showing him taking down a half-dozen Jedi Knights single-handedly. Meanwhile, some Jedi superfans whom I knew at the time were going absolutely berserk, because their Bible was Kevin Anderson's Tales comics, which stakes the implicit position that only Force-users can defeat other Force-users, and overpowers them to spectacular degrees to justify it. Even in this ongoing slapfight I'm having with our newest regular contributor, I'm just trying to make the point that can fight and kill Jedi/Sith, not that they should inevitably be victorious in violent encounters with the latter, but my Sith fanboying opposite number appears to be insulted by the very idea that, again, a Force-user could be defeated in a fight by anyone other than a Force-user.

True.

Does she? Again, I'm not familiar with LOTF for reasons I've previously mentioned, so I can't comment on that, but despite having supposedly jettisoned their gods long ago, her Mandalorians are not a truly secular people: they retain certain religious rituals like the daily recitation of the names of the honored dead, and maintain a belief in an afterlife linked to the practice of said rituals (with her main POV Mandalorian character, Kal Skirata, taking it upon himself to try and ensure that as many Clones as possible acquire the prerequisites to enter Mandalorian heaven).

I wouldn't say that. She was probably the first (only?) author to write about the Clone Wars adventures of Luke's ex-girlfriend Callista, or to write anything at all about Jedi Master Djinn Altiss, neither of whom are portrayed in a critical fashion at all.

Interesting that Wolfman Dave so readily reverted to the previous "vagabond" depiction for the live-action show.

I don't he's ever done the same for the allegation that TCW's Weimardalorians are Lucas's brainchild, either.

Stop invoking that accursed name.

Spoiler: MANDO MADNESS IV: A NEW MANDALORE

Except you don't have much quotes from Lucas either. What you do have is even less, because I judged Lucas based on his actions. And the man is a Jedi shill, as if all his shilling of Jedi merchandise and Jedi expanded universe content is any indication. Every time he gets involved in the project (Force Unleashed, Dark Empire) the Jedi are the clear good guys and everyone who goes up against them is an evil poopie-head. Like how he keeps depicting the Mandalorians as wannabe Jedi-killers who keep LOSING to the Jedi, be it in the films, where only one Jedi died to a Mandalorian surprise attack whereas both Mandalorians got killed easily by their opponents, or in the TCW cartoon, where he had limited input, and there, the leader of the Mandos failed horribly at fighting Jedi OR Sith, even when said Jedi or Sith holds back.

Also, the Jedi are blameless for the clones. Only one Jedi thought up of the army, and he was killed before the cloning process or the finer details of the army were even laid out. Most of that shit was put in by Dooku and Jango Fett. Nothing about Jedi dogma says "you can't lead troopers enslaved to the Republic" since every man drafted by the Republic is technically a slave to the state, clone or otherwise, and the Republic doesn't have a law banning drafting. If anything, they tried to keep the clones alive. Because again, since Jango, the Mandalorians, and the Kaminoans already conditioned the Clones to be loyal to the Republic, which is what enslaved the clones to begin with, had the Jedi all went the Rahm Kota path and refused to use the clones, the clones' programming and indoctrination would just lead them to serve Palpatine, and random Republic officers who would wind up becoming future IMPERIAL officers, guys like Tarkin who wouldn't mind sending men to die in droves or commit war crimes. The only effect that the Jedi not taking command of the Clone Army would have is that A) more of them will die in battle even faster, and B) they'd have an increased suicide rate because of all the PTSD they'll get from committing war crimes like shooting Separatist civilians. Anyone who cares about the clones would rather have Jedi leading them than have increased casualties and suicide rates be forced upon them.

Also, I've already said before that the odd Mandalorian is capable of killing Jedi or Sith now and then. After all, I kept talking about how Canderous was gutting Sith for the glory of Revan and all that. But here's the thing: the Mandalorians who kill Jedi are usually the top of their class, the equivalent of valedictorians. Whereas Jedi usually kill Mandos all the time, every time the two groups fight. And whenever the Jedi approach the Mandalorians with killing intent, as they did in the Mandalorian Wars and the Battle of Galidraan, the Mandalorians get slaughtered like pigs before a barbecue. As you've seen in that Open Seasons comic, only Jango was dropping Jedi left and right, the rest got slaughtered as if they were no different from random Stormtroopers.

Way to put words in my mouth, pal.

I'm keeping the spoiler tag on my separate, ongoing punchup with Stained Glass Vader.

According to what criteria?

It's clear that everyone wants you to use spoiler tags not because of a debate with me, but because your sperging takes way too much space, even when it's not directed at me.

According to the criteria of everyone else here who isn't a Mando super-fan. I mean, fuck, I grew up liking Jango Fett and Canderous Ordo and the Mandalorians, and even I think you're taking it too far.

 

[Honka Honka Burning Love]

Days later they are still dick waving.

Big Daddy Sheev had a point, he just fucked up in blowing up Alderaan instead of Mandalor, and should have fucking finished the job and had someone Order 66 Vader and his kids.

 

[White Devil]

Days later they are still dick waving.

Big Daddy Sheev had a point, he just fucked up in blowing up Alderaan instead of Mandalor, and should have fucking finished the job and had someone Order 66 Vader and his kids.

Can't nuke Vader's sperm donations if he didn't know about 'em.

 

[Ghostse]

There is a quote I like from J. Michael Straczynski about Babylon 5*, when asked about the top speed of the human fighters:
"They move at the speed of plot" (and critically important to that, JMS never established fixed units of transit time, allowing this)

I'm pretty sure that a the equation that accurately expresses a Mandalorian's combat effectiveness against a force user is Log ( N * Plot )

 

[Overcast]

@Cyril Sneer

How’s your son and his raccoon friends? You spend so much time making textwalls he probably misses you.