Apple Thread - The most overrated technology brand?

[Pinochet Was Right]

So there's been long-simmering resentment about the fact that apps sold on the iOS App Store can't do any sort of IAP for subscriptions, in-game currency, etc. from within the apps themselves and instead have to do it through Apple's storefront so that Apple can take their 30% cut. Various apps have been temporarily or permanently taken down from the App Store when they try to bypass this policy.

Epic Games went ahead and tried to do so with Fortnite, introducing a way to buy "V-Bucks" inside the game itself. Apple predictably pulled the game from the store. But then Epic did something interesting - they promptly filed a lawsuit against Apple, and released a video which parodies the old Apple 1984 commercial. The timing of this very much gives away that they knew damn well they'd be delisted when they did what they did.

For you zoomers too young to remember the original ad, here it is as it aired during the Super Bowl for the 1983 football season. 1984 was the year the original Macintosh was released, and "Big Brother" was at that time supposed to represent IBM, well on its way to standardizing via monopoly what had been before a diverse galaxy of personal computer platforms (Apple, Commodore, Tandy, TI, Atari, Sinclair, Acorn, Amstrad, MSX…).

Spoiler

The legal document is here. I haven't read through it yet and haven't yet figured out on exactly what grounds Epic thinks they can win this in court. I'm sure there are plenty of other companies with apps that would cheer if the court slapped an injunction on Apple from delisting apps that sidestep their 30% haircut. But I'm not sure why courts would decide Apple can't set their own rules for their platform - the "monopoly" card might be hard to play when you can get an Android phone or tablet for $60 from Walgreen's.

This might make for a Lolcow & Lolcow thread, but I'll leave it for the smarter lawfags to make that.

Nooooooo, not my heckin fortniterino!

 

[Gustav Schuchardt]

Here's a free tip on making Time Machine backups stay fast.

1) When the backup is running have this command run in a terminal

sudo fs_usage -w |grep -i backupd | grep -i HFS_update

You can see all the file accesses that Time Machine does. In my case I found that Skype has an enormously bloated Cache folder, located here

~/Library/Application Support/Microsoft/Skype for Desktop/Cache

I added that to my Time Machine exclusions and backups are now fast again.

Given that Electron apps are becoming more and more common I'd expect other IM type apps to be doing something similar to this.

 

[Smaug's Smokey Hole]

honestly I'm guessing Epic did this for two reasons, to drum up publicity since Fortnite is starting to wane, and to get Apple and Google to do this instead of wasting time in court
View attachment 1523429

In the end I honestly think Sweeney have good intentions. He's often overlooked but he's been right(ish) since the 90's.

 

[TomatoSupremacy]

So there's been long-simmering resentment about the fact that apps sold on the iOS App Store can't do any sort of IAP for subscriptions, in-game currency, etc. from within the apps themselves and instead have to do it through Apple's storefront so that Apple can take their 30% cut. Various apps have been temporarily or permanently taken down from the App Store when they try to bypass this policy.

Epic Games went ahead and tried to do so with Fortnite, introducing a way to buy "V-Bucks" inside the game itself. Apple predictably pulled the game from the store. But then Epic did something interesting - they promptly filed a lawsuit against Apple, and released a video which parodies the old Apple 1984 commercial. The timing of this very much gives away that they knew damn well they'd be delisted when they did what they did.

For you zoomers too young to remember the original ad, here it is as it aired during the Super Bowl for the 1983 football season. 1984 was the year the original Macintosh was released, and "Big Brother" was at that time supposed to represent IBM, well on its way to standardizing via monopoly what had been before a diverse galaxy of personal computer platforms (Apple, Commodore, Tandy, TI, Atari, Sinclair, Acorn, Amstrad, MSX…).

Spoiler

The legal document is here. I haven't read through it yet and haven't yet figured out on exactly what grounds Epic thinks they can win this in court. I'm sure there are plenty of other companies with apps that would cheer if the court slapped an injunction on Apple from delisting apps that sidestep their 30% haircut. But I'm not sure why courts would decide Apple can't set their own rules for their platform - the "monopoly" card might be hard to play when you can get an Android phone or tablet for $60 from Walgreen's.

This might make for a Lolcow & Lolcow thread, but I'll leave it for the smarter lawfags to make that.

I'm not sure why Epic is getting called out this much. Sure, Epic is a horribly greedy CCP puppet, but Apple is an even greedier company that has managed to stay afloat by exploiting the tech illiteracy of zoomers for almost 2 decades despite making shit products and a lawsuit like this has been long overdue.

 

[Least Concern]

I'm not sure why Epic is getting called out this much. Sure, Epic is a horribly greedy CCP puppet, but Apple is an even greedier company that has managed to stay afloat by exploiting the tech illiteracy of zoomers for almost 2 decades despite making shit products and a lawsuit like this has been long overdue.

Okay, but on what grounds can Epic win? "Rich company bad" is not basis enough to win a lawsuit.

And besides, trying to make this out like some sort of David versus Goliath story is ridiculous. Apple is worth $2 trillion, but Epic is worth $17 billion. Both abstractly large amounts of money.

 

[TomatoSupremacy]

Okay, but on what grounds can Epic win? "Rich company bad" is not basis enough to win a lawsuit.

And besides, trying to make this out like some sort of David versus Goliath story is ridiculous. Apple is worth $2 trillion, but Epic is worth $17 billion. Both abstractly large amounts of money.

I don't think it's a David v Goliath situation, as I said, they're both huge, greedy companies, but Apple hasn't been challenged in the market for a long time and have continued making basically the same product for years with very small improvements and have managed to keep a very closed and proprietary ecosystem and platform. Epic at least has some competition in the gaming market.

And I think Epic can claim unfair competition, current laws are broad enough where there is no clear definition of what is fair or not in the tech market.

 

[Sammy]

Okay, but on what grounds can Epic win? "Rich company bad" is not basis enough to win a lawsuit.

And besides, trying to make this out like some sort of David versus Goliath story is ridiculous. Apple is worth $2 trillion, but Epic is worth $17 billion. Both abstractly large amounts of money.

The more and more information that comes out about that lawsuit, the worse it looks for Epic, particularly Sweeney's email to Apple's heads that basically asks them, "Hey, will you let me cut you out of any sales I make on your platform while you host my software for free? Oh and also let me run a software store that's direct competition to your own software store, on your hardware, because I want you to, thanks guys," is not a good look for Epic. Their narrative further looks disingenuous when you consider they aren't running this crusade against Sony or Microsoft, whose terms of 30% take match Apple's, also run their own software store upon their hardware where in Epic cannot, (give or take Windows computers, okay), and on whose platforms they sell something like seven times the amount they do on Apple's platform, making their "unfair terms more detrimental" to Epic's wellbeing.

It's bullshit square and simple, and its not going to hold up in court and given Twitter's replies to Sweeney talking about the issue there (which is also gravel eating stupid, first thing you do when you have a lawsuit is you SHUT THE FUCK UP ABOUT THE LAWSUIT AND SAY NOTHING PUBLICLY ABOUT THE LAWSUIT YOU ONLY TALK TO YOUR LAWYER AND TO THE COURT ABOUT YOUR GODDAMN LAWSUIT), it seems like the narrative isn't going to float very long in the public eye either. Apple's got ruthless enough lawyers (they fucking won some bullshit suit against Samsung over the bezel curvature angle of their rectangular phones for fucks sakes) they can make this hurt if they really want, and Sweeney's grandstanding the day they were dropped shows a lot of premeditation they can't back down from.

I think the most lulzy ending to this would be Apple simply buying Epic. They got the cash on hand to do it, that would make this story go away, and suddenly Apple has a new gaming division, a market they've slowly been dipping their toes in with Apple Arcade, except now run by the biggest real competition to Steam, and if nothing else Fortnite make bank so its not an awful investment. Buy the company, then if you're feeling vindictive throw Sweeney out. I doubt we'll see that outcome though, and from a PR perspective that door closed the minute those "apple big company evil orwellians" cartoons hit the net. Still, its fun to dream.

Slight edit -

I don't think Epic ever intended to defeat Apple and Google. And I agree with them, 30% for doing nothing is too much, it should be lower. What's fair for InApp transactions?

30% indeed might be high but that's the standard, everyone takes approx. the same cut. I personally don't think Epic went into this thinking they'd win (or if they did they're all kinds of delusional), but they'd better hope if this primarily was for publicity it doesn't get revealed to be, courts don't take kindly to being used in that fashion. If they get into whether or not this was a lawsuit in "good faith" and Epic loses that, they'll get dismissed and most likely have to pay both court costs and Apple's attorney costs, which, ain't gonna be cheap. That'll be some expensive, expensive publicity.

 

[Lady Adjani]

I think the most lulzy ending to this would be Apple simply buying Epic. They got the cash on hand to do it, that would make this story go away, and suddenly Apple has a new gaming division, a market they've slowly been dipping their toes in with Apple Arcade, except now run by the biggest real competition to Steam, and if nothing else Fortnite make bank so its not an awful investment. Buy the company, then if you're feeling vindictive throw Sweeney out. I doubt we'll see that outcome though, and from a PR perspective that door closed the minute those "apple big company evil orwellians" cartoons hit the net. Still, its fun to dream.

I'd sooner imagine Apple start up a competitive gaming platform from scratch rather than buy Epic outright - as funny as that would be. Epic is shooting itself in the foot with this moronic lawsuit and if anything, solidifying Steam as the go-to marketplace for PC players.

Besides, can you even imagine the horrible precedent this would set if they actually won? It would encourage people to flat out violate the ToS.

 

[Least Concern]

I'd sooner imagine Apple start up a competitive gaming platform from scratch rather than buy Epic outright - as funny as that would be. Epic is shooting itself in the foot with this moronic lawsuit and if anything, solidifying Steam as the go-to marketplace for PC players.

Well, they kind of already have a gaming platform. Distribution with the App Store, achievements and such through Game Center, development tools through GameKit and SpriteKit and Metal - though the lack of cross-platform support means the latter stuff isn't used all that much. At any rate, yeah, a buyout of Epic would be funny, but I don't think they'd have much to gain from it.

EDIT: Apparently there was a preliminary hearing in the case today. MacRumors just posted a summary of the hearing: Judge in Apple v. Epic Case 'Inclined' to Side With Apple on Fortnite and Epic on Unreal Engine (a)

 

[LegoTugboat]

Well, they kind of already have a gaming platform. Distribution with the App Store, achievements and such through Game Center, development tools through GameKit and SpriteKit and Metal - though the lack of cross-platform support means the latter stuff isn't used all that much. At any rate, yeah, a buyout of Epic would be funny, but I don't think they'd have much to gain from it.

EDIT: Apparently there was a preliminary hearing in the case today. MacRumors just posted a summary of the hearing: Judge in Apple v. Epic Case 'Inclined' to Side With Apple on Fortnite and Epic on Unreal Engine (a)

Yes, and Apple's been rolling out controller support as well, with the 4 OS releases last year gaining XBox One and PS4 controller, and Big Sur, et al, gaining XBox Adaptive and XBox whatever the next one is controller support. (And the controllers getting lightbar and rumble/haptic support.)

https://twitter.com/i/status/1298018449168375809

They're making a push into it, it's just that they're marketing it pretty badly unless you deliberately look for it.

For a tl;dr of the MR article, the judge has said that Epic doesn't have clean hands, it was obviously a prepared stunt, and they should have goddamn expected Apple to retaliate. That being said, Apple went too far targeting Unreal.

Most likely case, Epic gets told to put Fortnite back on App Store and pay Apple the 30%, gets told to keep Fortnite down and shut the hell up until the actual case happens, and Unreal gets left on the App Store.

Also, according to Epic's lawyers, Fortnite's been a vital communications tool during the pandemic.

 

[Least Concern]

Also, according to Epic's lawyers, Fortnite's been a vital communications tool during the pandemic.

Holy shit, I must have missed that part. That's hilarious. Did they add voice chat to it at one point? The last time I tried it , which was a long time ago, it still didn't have it - but if I were building a team-based FPS, that'd be one of the first things I'd add…

 

[Sammy]

Also, according to Epic's lawyers, Fortnite's been a vital communications tool during the pandemic.

As @Least Concern said, yeah, what the fuck is that? Does anyone have a clipping or a citation so I don't have to go digging for that fact?

 

[LegoTugboat]

Lawyers for Epic and Apple were both able to argue their positions, and given the initial inclinations of the judge, Epic largely focused on arguing why its games should be able to remain in the ‌App Store‌ without changes, while Apple focused on reasons why it should be able to block the Unreal Engine.

Epic's lawyer's argued that asking Epic to capitulate and go back to the status quo is akin to "asking us to require consumers to pay more than they should in a competitive environment" and that it had antitrust implications. "We can't go back into an anticompetitive contract," said Epic's lawyer. Epic also argued about the social aspects of the game, suggesting it was more than a mere game and a vital way to communicate during the pandemic.

 

[Sammy]

I guess I was talking more like, a direct transcript quote, but as its no longer 11pm and I'm more awake, I kinda realize what I was asking for is a little... unwieldy. Plus costly, don't court transcript copies have a cost associated with them?

This is fine.

Until more details of that lolsuit come out, how 'bout that ARM processor shit?

 

[Joe Swanson]

Until more details of that lolsuit come out, how 'bout that ARM processor shit?

The Nvidia buyout of ARM is apparently about to happen, which could shake things up considering Apple's icy relations with Nvidia

 

[LegoTugboat]

Well, on ARM, TSMC held their Technology Symposium yesterday, I'll just do the choice bits of what they announced. (TSMC uses NX for normal chips, and NXP for refined chips. Think of it like Apple's A12 compared to Apple's A12X.)

The N5 have been in full production for the past few months and have been rolling out to companies, with products featuring them to be released later in the year. In addition, the N5s are approximately three months ahead in comparison to the 7 and 10 nms (due to the more refined lasers being more efficient and precise in cutting), and are currently experimenting with the N5P, which should be 5% more powerful and 10% more efficient over N5s

They're also working on the N4 as part of a roadmap towards the N3 (yes, 3 nm), with the N3 to enter risk production in 2021, and full production in 2022, which they say should be approximately 25-30% more efficient and 10-15% more powerful over a N5.

https://www.anandtech.com/show/16024/tsmc-details-3nm-process-technology-details-full-node-scaling-for-2h22

 

[Least Concern]

Epic confirms Fortnite’s new season won’t be on iPhone, iPad, or Mac (a)

The Mac bit is odd. Unlike iOS, Mac software does not need to be installed solely through the Mac App Store; Fortnite is installed with Epic's own Epic Games Store. And Apple hasn't followed through yet on any threats to remove developer tool access from Epic. So I'm not sure why Epic would be not releasing a Mac update.

They're also working on the N4 as part of a roadmap towards the N3 (yes, 3 nm), with the N3 to enter risk production in 2021, and full production in 2022, which they say should be approximately 25-30% more efficient and 10-15% more powerful over a N5.

Damn. They might have to soon switch over to whatever's smaller than a nanometer to measure these things.

 

[Pissmaster]

About a year and a half ago, I tried looking up Fortnite on Android to see how it ran, and searching for it on Google Play brought up a screen that said something like "Fortnite isn't available on the Google Play Store." with a link to PUBG Mobile. Turns out, you had to download it from Epic's own site and sideload it yourself, complete with instructions to find the "allow non-google play apps" toggle in your settings.

So I'm not surprised ol' Sweeny's at it again.

And besides, trying to make this out like some sort of David versus Goliath story is ridiculous. Apple is worth $2 trillion, but Epic is worth $17 billion. Both abstractly large amounts of money.

so, Epic still needs $3,000,000,000 more to reach 1% of Apple's net worth. If Epic is a Goliath in its own right, Apple is an Eldridch horror.

 

[ToroidalBoat]

Remember I was saying how bad the wired "Mighty Mouse" is?

Turns out there's no side buttons - the "zones" of the left and right buttons* extend down to the sides. They get very unresponsive on top, but oversensitive on the sides. So as I said, this results in constant unintentional clicks and intentional clicks failing to work. It's really bad holding a click - like with clicking and dragging, or selecting text.

I may need to buy another mouse...

*(there's no physical division between the two visible)

 

[LegoTugboat]

Remember I was saying how bad the wired "Mighty Mouse" is?

Turns out there's no side buttons - the "zones" of the left and right buttons* extend down to the sides. They get very unresponsive on top, but oversensitive on the sides. So as I said, this results in constant unintentional clicks and intentional clicks failing to work. It's really bad holding a click - like with clicking and dragging, or selecting text.

I may need to buy another mouse...

*(there's no physical division between the two visible)

Yeah, I'll be straight up and say that Apple mice are just terrible and overpriced. From the hockey puck with the G3, to the Mighty Mouse, to the hilarious lightning charger on the newer mice which was on the bottom. A cheap $5 or $10 wired mouse'll do far more, and if you want to go fancy, go Logitech.