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- May 3, 2019
Fisher was also based as fuck, she pretty much told a soyboy who bitched about it to go fuck himself.
Star Wars Griefing Thread (SPOILERS) - Safety off
- Thread starter CowReserach Inc.
- Start date
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- Sep 13, 2018
Asohka Tano is getting an action figure. this flies in the face of rumors that merch is dead. WCB on death watch.
www.slashfilm.com
Also, Zahn's new Thrawn novel is coming soon. Considering he reentered Star Wars due to Filoni using Thrawn, I maintain that Zahn is being used to seed content and float concepts that Filoni cansteal adapt.
With Kennedy seemingly focused on The KOTOR/Tales era and Filoni on the post Endor material, could the new battle over the direction of the Star Wars franchise actually be over which part of the Legends universe to co-opt?
Cool Stuff: 'Star Wars: Clone Wars' Favorite Ahsoka Tano Finally Gets the Hot Toys Collectible Figure She Deserves
The new Star Wars: The Clone Wars Ahsoka Tano Hot Toys figure follows her own path and comes with a dynamic sculpt and outstanding accessories.
www.slashfilm.com
Also, Zahn's new Thrawn novel is coming soon. Considering he reentered Star Wars due to Filoni using Thrawn, I maintain that Zahn is being used to seed content and float concepts that Filoni can
With Kennedy seemingly focused on The KOTOR/Tales era and Filoni on the post Endor material, could the new battle over the direction of the Star Wars franchise actually be over which part of the Legends universe to co-opt?
- Joined
- Apr 16, 2017
Asohka Tano is getting an action figure. this flies in the face of rumors that merch is dead. WCB on death watch.
Cool Stuff: 'Star Wars: Clone Wars' Favorite Ahsoka Tano Finally Gets the Hot Toys Collectible Figure She Deserves
The new Star Wars: The Clone Wars Ahsoka Tano Hot Toys figure follows her own path and comes with a dynamic sculpt and outstanding accessories.
Also, Zahn's new Thrawn novel is coming soon. Considering he reentered Star Wars due to Filoni using Thrawn, I maintain that Zahn is being used to seed content and float concepts that Filoni canstealadapt.
With Kennedy seemingly focused on The KOTOR/Tales era and Filoni on the post Endor material, could the new battle over the direction of the Star Wars franchise actually be over which part of the Legends universe to co-opt?
So this thing won't even be available until 2022 and may not even be some mass produced shit and is only made with NEET-tier waifufags in mind?
Filoni is going to hotglue this thing. Mark my words.
Zahn is only kept around because they realized that the nu-Thrawn novels are the only ones that sell well, however he is still under their thumb so he can only write Thrawn prequels and nothing set in the future. But no doubt his shit will get co-opted by Furloni or have a lot of the stuff in his novels changed once Filoni presents them.
I was kind of taken by horrible surprise when Kennedy commented about the age of SW history to align with KOTOR's timeframe. Either the bitch is going to bring back the EU/Legends (which is a terrible idea what with all the woke writers under Disney who will do their damnedest to make every single old character a simp, queer or tranny who sucks at everything) or this is related to those old rumors that a new KOTOR is coming but made to align with sequel and new canon garbage by introducing shit from the sequels like Jakku.
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- Joined
- Dec 17, 2019
Yeah, I noticed that too when you posted that article. Much as I'd hope it to be mere coincidence, the KOTOR protagonists *are* ripe for these fuckheads to turn into stronk crippled black troon wammyn. It would be all the more stupid since The Exile is already canonically female (albeit the game's lore and romance options among other things always leading me to believe a male Exile was actually intended at first), but the beast of Woke is always hungry and eager to destroy, much more so than Nihilus even.
Nevertheless, I still see many normies clamoring for Disney to tackle KOTOR, seemingly unaware of their all-too-familiar formula: 1. destroy/rip apart old material, 2. put it back together placing tons of woke and/or self-insert bullshit at its core, 3. falsely claim to have pioneered yet another perceived "milestone" for Star Wars. If you were to ask them, most normies would have you believe Disney and Marvel invented women and minorities in movies altogether.
Tl;dr: I'm not ready to see nuBlack Troon Exile get xer first sexual experience from some Kennedy-Kreia self-insert.
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Edit:
I, for one, am eager to read more about it. Between my aforementioned fears of Disney bastardizing my favorite SW entries and seeing whatever other horrors they've put out, it's nice being able to come here and read you guys' posts about old content from a more civilized age as well as about whatever little decent new content may shine through the Mouse's mounds of mud.
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LORD IMPERATOR
kiwifarms.net
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- Aug 4, 2020
I wouldn't be surprised if more than one actor did. Although the guy probably wishes that he wasn't wearing a helmet at the time.
If she lived up to today, you can bet your ass they'd eventually turn on her.
It never does. Not while these people have something to complain about, be it "misogyny" or "racism" that they conjure up.
Asohka Tano is getting an action figure. this flies in the face of rumors that merch is dead. WCB on death watch.
Cool Stuff: 'Star Wars: Clone Wars' Favorite Ahsoka Tano Finally Gets the Hot Toys Collectible Figure She Deserves
The new Star Wars: The Clone Wars Ahsoka Tano Hot Toys figure follows her own path and comes with a dynamic sculpt and outstanding accessories.
Also, Zahn's new Thrawn novel is coming soon. Considering he reentered Star Wars due to Filoni using Thrawn, I maintain that Zahn is being used to seed content and float concepts that Filoni canstealadapt.
With Kennedy seemingly focused on The KOTOR/Tales era and Filoni on the post Endor material, could the new battle over the direction of the Star Wars franchise actually be over which part of the Legends universe to co-opt?
That battle has already begun. We've been seeing them teasing KOTOR bits all over Rebels, they made the Mandalorians into rebel patsies just like in the EU, and they brought in Thrawn. It's not over which part of Legends will they co-opt, it's "how can we do this in ways that would appeal to people and still make sense."
So this thing won't even be available until 2022 and may not even be some mass produced shit and is only made with NEET-tier waifufags in mind?
Filoni is going to hotglue this thing. Mark my words.
View attachment 1549568
Zahn is only kept around because they realized that the nu-Thrawn novels are the only ones that sell well, however he is still under their thumb so he can only write Thrawn prequels and nothing set in the future. But no doubt his shit will get co-opted by Furloni or have a lot of the stuff in his novels changed once Filoni presents them.
I was kind of taken by horrible surprise when Kennedy commented about the age of SW history to align with KOTOR's timeframe. Either the bitch is going to bring back the EU/Legends (which is a terrible idea what with all the woke writers under Disney who will do their damnedest to make every single old character a simp, queer or tranny who sucks at everything) or this is related to those old rumors that a new KOTOR is coming but made to align with sequel and new canon garbage by introducing shit from the sequels like Jakku.
Considering that there is still a large fanbase for Ahsoka and TCW, people will buy that stuff up.
KOTOR being brought back will only work if KK has no input on it and they make sure the woke brigade doesn't touch it. Which is hard to imagine, to be honest. And they were already putting in ST stuff in SWTOR like those horrible crossguard sabers.
Yes, I admit it looks cool. But in the wrong position, if the enemy pushes you back, your saber's crossguard can end up impaling you.
I can already imagine it. Revan is female and is in love with Juhani. Bastila whines about the patriarchy when complaining about the Jedi Masters since they're all men. Carth and Canderous would be made to look like fools in front of Mission Vao and Juhani. And those sad saps at Bioware will have no problems accommodating that shit.
Agreed. They act as if Finn and Black Panther are milestones, when Jolee Bindo and Blade make them look like yesterday's news. Rey is nowhere near as good as female Revan or female Jaden Korr in terms of leads, and yet the Disney groupies still think that Rey was the first time a female Jedi took center stage.
Well, get ready. You'll be seeing it soon enough.
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- Nov 4, 2017
That's...uh...that's not glue.
You don't seem to understand what "Hotglue" means
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- Apr 16, 2017
LORD IMPERATOR
kiwifarms.net
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Urban Dictionary: Hot glue
A type of fetishistic act in which a man orgasms onto a figurine, such as of an anime or video game character. The result is the figurine appearing to be covered in "hot glue".
www.urbandictionary.com
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Ahsoka and Jedi Master Shaak Ti are Togrutas.
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- Jun 25, 2020
Gotcha. I only vaguely remember Shaak Ti.
Rosario Dawson is going to look ridiculous in that make up. Not at all as hot as Aayla Secura.
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- Dec 17, 2019
I didn't have a problem with the Death Watch themselves...I thought they were cool, and their interactions with the Sons of Dathomir were believably callous and duplicitous. But a lot of the early Mando stuff heavily features Satine as the main focus, whose entire characterization royally annoys the fuck out of me, and never came off as written well.
I mean, I get it, she's this uber-pacifist who wants the Clone Wars to stop, but you know who else is? Padme Amidala. And she's written to be a far less of an unlikeable cunt in the standalone episodes featuring her, too, so I don't know why the writers dropped the ball when it was time to flesh out Satine.
You're falling into the same trap that a lot of people do, by incorrectly assuming that the post-Endor EU was solely about the OT Characters. It wasn't. NJO was the first major story arc to feature the next generation of characters--the Solo Children and the rest of the Young Jedi Knights--as major characters with personal stakes and drama in what was going on. To simply leave the story on that note without exploring the rest of their lives, just to skip over to the Legacy comics where they're all dead and replaced by descendants, would have been an utter waste. Finally, Jacen and Jaina get to participate in a story arc where they aren't the McGuffins or the subject of some Imperial kidnapping scheme...only to get one series, and then be fucking dropped? I don't think a single person in editorial would walk past all of the narrative potential on offer, just to skip to Legacy, and rightfully so.
The reason that the Solo Children get so much focus in NJO and LOTF is because unlike the OT characters, they can be subject of actual stakes. Thanks to George enforcing guidelines that the OT characters can never be subject to long-term harm or being killed off, the writers have to center most of the drama around the younger characters. This is what made NJO so good...it was the younger generation who was at the heart of all the suffering, death, hardship and trauma, because unlike the OT Heroes in their plot-shield, they actually had everything to lose. LOTF continuing to the adulthood of NJO's central cast as the focus was the right move, and simply relegating the Vong or Abeloth or whoever as "a capstone for the old characters" seems like more posturing for heroes that got plenty of focus and glorification in the early Bantam books. That kind of approach to the post-Endor characters is how you get something like Dark Nest, where the threat and conflict is almost solely focused around Han, Luke and Leia, with their badassery as the veterans completely overshadowing the newer characters, and rendering them as backstage extras to the OT Heroes' accomplishments.
Ultimately, narrowing the focus after NJO to the younger characters and their development was the smart move on the part of the EU authors. Besides, it's not like LOTF does any damage to the OT Heroes' characters...I honestly think this story arc does their characterizations more service and narrative justice than NJO did, especially where Han and Leia are concerned.
I can't speak to the former, as I haven't read the scene where Mara dies to see how it's handled in conflict, but if you think Jacen's downfall started solely with LOTF, you and everyone else are categorically wrong.
It's also worth mentioning that it isn't just the unfolding civil around Jacen that facilitates his Dark Side Downfall...it's his feverish determination to end all conflicts, something that has motivated his studies of the Force as early as mid-NJO. The conflict with Corellia just happens to be the conflict at the time where he finally exercises the worst of Vergere's teachings to ascertain that goal. To pretend his Dark Side Turn has even mostly to do with the political turmoil between Coruscant and Corellia is a disingenuous and reductionist reading of the text.
That's a take in the same misinformed category as "the Jedi are pacifists."
No amount of war fatigue is going to convince people to sit by while a domestic threat grows like a cancer one planet away from them. Especially when it threatens a peace that they've bitterly fought to preserve.
I've already written extensively why it makes the most sense for why veterans of the Rebel Alliance would be the most willing to oppose the advent of tyranny blossoming a galaxy where they just finished weeding it out. So please refer to those points if you wish, because you haven't addressed them here.
The nature of intense political turmoil during peacetime is precisely what fires up more small-scale conflicts to settle unresolved issues. This is all over history, from Medieval Europe to Feudal Japan to 19th Century America.
England fought France for a literal hundred year conflict, and not even a decade later, they sprang into a period of small-scale, internal civil wars in the form of the War of the Roses. They went from fighting one of the bloodiest, longest battles with a foreign enemy ever recorded in British history to fighting each other...over a silly little thing like politics. Fatigue is not some kind of all-encompassing stopgap to prevent future wars. If motivated enough, they can easily relapse back into bloody conflict if they're driven enough by fanatical dedication to their cause.
Besides, you keep writing like the Yuuzhan Vong War occurred literally a week before the events of LOTF, and the new conflict is just as devastating. It's been eleven goddamn years, and the conflict is only reserved between Coruscant and Corellia. I'm on the fourth book in this series, and yet you still have the elites of this conflict expressing worry about "if full-scale war breaks across the galaxy." Know what that means? Everyone's treating this as a small-scale conflict between two planets, because that's precisely what it is. This conflict is nothing like the Yuuzhan Vong War in scale or participants. Why would be illogical for the people involved to presume that their Corellian/Coruscanti enemies won't devastate them on a genocidal level like the Vong did? In fact, that sounds like a reasonable assumption to make, and even more reasonable to assume that they stand a fighting chance of overpowering the other.
I believe war fatigue plays a role in how history ebbs and flows, but not in the way you're describing...especially given the EU and the way it's handled "fatigue". At best, the LOTF conflict resembles the scale of battles fought between the New Republic and the Imperial Remnant during the 90's EU. And Han, Luke and Leia sure as fuck weren't fatigued by the four-year civil war they just fought when it came to dealing with the Imperials again...and for another fifteen fucking years, I might add, as opposed to the one year conflict featured in LOTF.
I think you might've missed the entirety of Dark Nest where it's established that Cal Omas and the GFFA are infinitely more impulsive in their galactic dealings than Borsk Feyla and the NR. The bouts of disagreement between the Galactic Alliance and Luke's Jedi Order were happening only a few years after NJO was over, because the quick assembly of the GFFA in the wake of the Vong War allowed a lot of questionable politicians assume command out of necessity, Omas very much included. His lack of compromise and push for brute force is part of why Dark Nest played out the way it did, much to the frustration of Luke & Company. Now pit that impulsiveness against Thrackan Sal-Solo, with his atomic levels of opportunism and the kind of warmongering he has historically attracted on Corellia.
LOTF is working with pre-existing political enties like Omas and Sal-Solo, the exact kind of people who would stage a senseless nationalistic and paranoia-driven conflict in the absence of a full-scale war. And
the "bean-counting" scenario you're positioning was never going to happen because a lot of the more tempered and restrained members of the Rebel Alliance (Mon Mothma, Garm Bel Iblis, and Admiral Ackbar) are all dead by the time of Dark Nest, and replaced by people like Omas.
It seems to me like you're just inventing reasons to justify the utter absense of any major conflict in the decades following NJO, which is not a reasonable expectation to have. Combating a genocidal threat doesn't magically eliminate any potential tensions or divisions between ordinary citizens in the galaxy...especially for the length it would take to reach the 130 ABY setting of the Legacy comics.
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- Dec 17, 2019
Again, please refer to the points I made regarding fatigue in my previous posts.
The American Civil War was almost entirely fought by veterans who had not only developed camaraderie on the fields of Mexico, but had all studied together at West Point, and had rigid bonds with each other. None of those things stopped them from declaring loyalty to their respective home state and fighting for their respective causes. They were comrades and inseparable friends, forced to pick sides on the grounds of loyalty and personal principle. There are entire works of Civil War fiction built upon the premise of people who were borderline (or sometimes actual) family prior to the war, and forced to pick sides once it starts.
Camaraderie and friendship can absolutely fall secondary to personal principle. That's precisely what divides the Solo/Skywalker family in LOTF, and quite realistically, I might add.
Thrackan Sal-Solo has attempted to fuck with the stability of the New Republic once in the aftermath of the civil war in the Corellian Trilogy, and again during an actual war in NJO. I don't think he or his loyalists would have any reservations about trying to saboage the political landscape just as Coruscant is rebuilding.
I also don't think anyone would be giving Coruscant a free pass once it started doing things like blockading the Corellian atmosphere or storming the homes of Corellian-born citizens in its own cities. It would be hard to justify any reservations on the Corellian side of things, especially given how hot-blooded and prideful they are without these factors at play.
That's the point. Both planets are throwing their weight around and are demonstrating their inability to compromise, whilst using the worst tactics imaginable to establish dominance over the other and end the conflict quickly. The unlikable and increasingly justifiable behavior from both factions involved isn't an accident--it's the way the authors are intending the conflict to be read.
This comparison doesn't really work, and is painfully-flawed. The galaxy not expressing any agency during the destruction of Alderaan isn't down to simple lack of sympathy or unwillingness to start another war. They've spent twenty years under the rigid, totalitarian regime of the Empire. Of course no one is going to retaliate against whatever questionable actions the Empire takes...they've proven consistently that they can do what they want and go unchallenged, thanks to their insurmountable size and reach.
The galaxy isn't under the same chokehold of a dictatorship during any point in the further adventures of Han, Luke and Leia, and I guarantee you if the Galactic Alliance did something as reminiscent of the old regime as decimate an entire planet, there would be carnage from not just the Coruscanti populace but every single one of its major allies. In LOTF, we even see not Corellians, but Coruscant's own populace engaging in furious riots as the government establishes more Empire-like practices. Palleon even leaves the GFFA in protest of how much like the old Empire they're becoming. It is laughable to assume that those same hordes of people would just not care about their government nuking a neighboring planet and establishing the precedent to become the Empire all over again.
I've already touched upon why staging the drama of Jacen & Co. when they're old and unable to interact with their dead parents would deny any of the narrative potential that LOTF actually fulfills. You can refer to that.
Leaping decades to see the aftermath of characters growing and developing is precisely how we got the ST, and having familiar characters come off as total strangers having undergone decades of development or changes that happened off-screen.
Again, as I've stated before, the idea that any conflict regarding Jacen would be magically delayed till he's in his 60's is nonsensical--equally nonsensical to the idea people posit of Luke's brief flirt with the Dark Side in ROTJ just magically staying dormant and then manifesting conveniently to necessitate his impulse to attack his nephew in TLJ. You cannot address the consequences of Jacen's exploits in NJO and Dark Nest fifty years after they happen, especially when he's the protagonist and major character of both of them.
Taking this approach to remedy the honestly marginal world-building problems in LOTF would inadvertently create capsizing levels of character inconsistency that this would create, reeking of forced convenience that plagues Disney's efforts with the ST. Not to mention, it would mean that NJO is the only major story arc where both Han, Luke and Leia (who would presumably be dead in your "decades-later" scenario) having interactions and drama with their children. All of the excellent character interactions and harrowing family moments in LOTF, just "poof" gone.
You'll have to forgive me if I find your remedial hypothetical scenario wholly undesirable, and that I'm relieved we never got that.
You're missing a key factor here; people were craving the war because they thought it would be a quick, effortless solution to resolve their differences with the opposition. You literally had scores of people who were motivated to fight because they arrogantly thought the war would be over in a few scant weeks. That wasn't just exaggerated newspaper declarations or speeches by leaders of opposite sides...we have mountains of personal correspondence between soldiers and their families, all of whom believed unironically that they could resolve the ensuing conflict quickly.
That's what makes the conflict in LOTF what it is: everyone involved is treating it very differently from the Vong War because they believe they believe they can resolve it in mere months, as opposed to the five years it took to end the genocidal conflict in NJO. That arrogant presumption that they can squash the other faction in record time is parroted by everyone from Cal Omas to Thrackan-Sal's Corellian Elite. The nationalism and demonizing of the opposite faction is what motivates delusional behavior like that, just like in the American Civil War.
The conflicts in Dark Nest and LOTF are not galaxy-spanning, full-scale wars. They are locally-contained feuds that threaten the possibility of full-scale war, by admission of its participants. Why else do you think Luke and everyone is talking about working exhaustively to prevent Jacen's vision of a galaxy-spanning Swarm War from coming true? Why do you think even after fleet battles with the likes of Corellia and Hapes, people like Wedge and Han in LOTF still talk about the possibility of entering a full-scale war, almost as if that explicitly hasn't happened yet?
The conclusions you're drawing to bolster your argument are either based on incorrect or misinformed readings of the material. The conflicts in the post-NJO books aren't even on the same level as the Galactic Civil War in terms of casualties or galactic scope, let alone the Yuuzhan Vong War.
Maybe there would be fatigue if every war was the same as the Vong War, with equal number of casualties, devastation, and consistently-vast gulfs in power between participating factions.
Good thing we've established that they weren't.
Well, of course nationality isn't going to be a major factor or element in a conflict against a galaxy-threatening anomaly like the Empire or the Yuuzhan Vong. But that's not the kind of conflict being fought in LOTF. When you have political and social tensions mounting between two and only two specific planets, then of course you're going to have elements of homeworld pride and patriotism. Especially when half of the Rebellion consists of uncompromising Corellian aces.
The absence of homeworld loyalty in the OT doesn't obliterate it as a prospective narrative element in future story arcs. That's like saying religious warfare is never on the table because only a portion of the galaxy is seen as remotely spiritual in the films...thus eliminating an idealogical conflict like the one seen in NJO from ever happening.
Just because some narrative element strictly doesn't appear in the films doesn't mean it's implausible; the lifeblood of the EU is literally going to narrative places that the films don't. If it's plausible, reasonably in-character and well-executed, it can absolutely exist as a story point. LOTF is all three of these things.
If it becomes a topical issue for the characters, then there's no reason it shouldn't happen...especially it concerns planets and civilians whose freedoms they've fought hard to preserve. Pan-galactic conquest isn't and shouldn't be the only threat these characters are capable of addressing.
That literally reduces all of their adventures to world-saving capeshit. Having characters deal with the social or nationalistic issues of peacetime is the kind of thing I would have expect to have been addressed well before the characters are in their 50's and 60's, but the Bantam Era EU was too fixated on generating on delivering monster-of-the-week to ever cover this kind of thing. Especially with personal familial stakes like the kind found in LOTF.
Petty ambition and selfishness disguised as righteous patriotism is exactly how the Corellians are intended to be characterized at the outset of LOTF. At no point does the story attempt to justify what Corellia or Coruscant or doing, especially early on when the conflict is there mostly to serve the needs of people like Thrackan-Sal or Grejjen. It becomes far more personal for the Corellian people once the GFFA overcompensate in their response, and both sides begin to escalate their despicable behavior to further a futile conflict between the two.
From what I'm reading, it seems like you're trying to argue why Corellia or Coruscant isn't justified in what they're doing, when even the story itself doesn't make that argument.
It isn't just the Galactic Alliance responding to Corellia's hostility, it's the way it responds, and the alarming precedent it creates for how it may respond to future political or social hindrances in the future. Omas and the GFFA do a ton of shady operations on their own soil and in Corellian space well before the first Corellian city bomb goes off. And when those maneuvers are made public, it rightfully angers and frightens the non-Corellian populace of Coruscant, wondering if exactly what kind of precedent this will set in how the GFFA will handle future interplanetary tensions...and how more like the Empire they'll become.
This pattern of alarming behavior started in Dark Nest, by the way, and was already being contested by Luke and his Jedi Order even then. This dilemma didn't start with Corellia and Centerpoint; the GFFA's actions are only more amplified and visibly controversial extensions of their previous behavior.
You mean how they did two times already?
The funny thing is that all of these grievances you have with the conflict at the center of LOTF are ones I don't hear at all in regards to online complaints about LOTF. Most of them relate to the plot points you're just mentioning about Jacen's downfall, Mara's death and the Mando's...along with the series being too bleak or depressing, and not enough like the simplistic space heroics of the film.
You are the first person I've encountered who actually takes issue with the civil war servicing the premise of LOTF itself, amusingly enough. At least, in all of the internet circles surrounding the EU I've encountered.
Why would the family drama between the Solo Children and their parents have any affect on characters in a storyline over a century later? Dramatic and bombastic as they were, it's not like Padme and Anakin's romance or his and Obi-Wan's begrudging student-master relationship are profoundly referenced at great length by Luke, Han and Leia. Any rifts or tensions between families tend to die with them and have virtually no effect on later generations. Not to mention that the Corellian conflict only lasted a single year, and only involved two planets. Why would that have any effect on something happening over a hundred years later? Several incidents on the same scale or smaller happen during the 90's EU, and they're still great stories...some of which impacted the characters on a massive personal level.
I think LOTF is easily more important than any of those...not in terms of scale or world-building, but purely because of how it directly affects the main characters. Obviously, I would expect the entire galaxy to feel the after-effects of a trillions-dead war with the Yuuzhan Vong over a series of familial shouting matches between the Solo's. One is obviously going to affect the galaxy at a greater level...but that doesn't mean the family drama of the Solo's aren't important to the characters involved. It's of massive narrative importance to characters like Luke and the Solo Children. The way the emotional and traumatic scars of these events affected characters on a massively personal level are still of vital importance in the EU's sprawling collection of stories. Even if something is on a small-scale and isn't referenced religiously in future events doesn't mean that it wasn't important to those alive to witness it.
Not all stories are measured by their importance in terms of world-building or a fictional universe's overarching history. I think that's where you and I are at some kind of an impasse when it comes to what we view as consequential storylines in the EU.
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- Jul 13, 2019
I'm sure the post was fine. But my thumb was getting tired scrolling. Therefore, autism
LORD IMPERATOR
kiwifarms.net
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I didn't hate Satine as much as everyone else did, mostly because I wasn't that big a fan of the True Mandalorians. I was a fan of the Neo-Crusaders, and those guys died out millennia ago. It was kind of interesting that Satine managed to build up a civilization so influential that neutral worlds all over the galaxy saw her as a leader. That, and her rule came to a crashing end the day Darth Maul set foot on Mandalore, so it wasn't like it lasted that long anyways.
But that's the point. I would have liked it if LOTF took place 50 years after the Vong War so as to make it NOT be about the original trilogy characters. They'd all be dead, and without their guidance, Jacen falling to the Dark Side would be more plausible. That, and with the passing away of the generations who saw the Clone Wars, the Galactic Civil War, and the Vong War, the stage would be set for ambitious people from the new generation to start another war for power or personal gain, or over petty things like planet loyalty. Jacen would be one of the few old guard characters left who still remembers at least one out of three major wars that nearly decimated the galaxy, and he'd be willing to put down any would-be warmongers at all costs. Which would make the main idea for LOTF more plausible.
And of course, anyone who cracks open the Legacy Era comics can find references to almost everything EXCEPT LOTF. There's the KOTOR subplot with the Muur Talisman and Celeste Morne. The Sith/Imperial subplot where they're both trying to retake what they believed to be theirs. The Vong subplot where people still have bad feelings about the Vong. And we also see the New Jedi Order helmed by a Skywalker. But there's absolutely nothing about Corellia's attempt to rebel against the Galactic Alliance or anything about the Second Galactic Civil War. It's as if LOTF was a hangover the EU had between the Vong era and the Legacy era that it swiftly forgot as it moved on. And the fact that LOTF did a lot of unpopular things makes it easier for EU fans to have selective amnesia and delete that part of the EU in their minds while just having the Vong storyline be succeeded by the Legacy Era. Because again, that was the perfect place to leave the OT cast at. Sure, throw Abeloth into the post-Vong era to provide a Force-based final boss, but aside from that, the long hard war they had with the Vong where the Alliance and the Empire joined forces to slay the Vong threat was such a nice capstone to the plot of the OT characters, as well as the EU characters for the OT era, too. Thrawn joined the Empire so that he can prepare the galaxy for the coming Yuuzhan Vong. The galaxy defeating the main threat that Thrawn and the Empire were gearing up to fight places the story to rest at such an opportune time-they slew the final boss that Palpatine and Thrawn were gearing up to take on.
For things to denigrate back into war in such a short timeframe (10 years) after the defeat of the Vong makes things really messy for the story, and all they did with it was do things that piss off the fans, like Jaina begging Boba Fett for help, Jacen turning evil, and Mara getting axed. Many fans of the EU who followed those characters from one tome to the next REALLY hated those changes. So forgive me for not taking your side in this, but I do see the hate for LOTF coming from many EU fans as justified. The series just seems like one of those comic book plots where shocking and messy things happen for the sake of shock value, then it gets cleaned up in a couple books and things go fine as if it never happened.
If the OT characters were limited in scope by Lucas setting forth guidelines, the right idea would have been to set LOTF in a place where it was AFTER the OT cast died off. That way, you can do whatever you want with the story, and it would make sense for a new war to break out once the war-weary generations of the past die off and a new generation of young blood takes center stage. If you can do whatever you want with the Solo kids but not the OT characters, then the best way to make more stories out of them is to have them take place AFTER the OT cast bit the dust, for full versatility and range of stories, and to make the idea of a second Galactic Civil War be more realistic once the generations that saw the Clone Wars and Galactic Civil War died off.
No, to me, the OT characters were just showing their age in LOTF. It felt like they didn't belong there, that they were heroes of another time. And it felt artificial because we KNOW Han, Leia, and Luke can't be killed, so part of the suspense is gone. We know that once Luke and the others face Jacen, he's getting his ass kicked, because the opposite result would draw the wrath of George Lucas. Frankly, everyone came off as if they were holding the idiot ball in LOTF, every faction, every character. Especially when that petty war between Coruscant and Corellia would have been better off being a trade dispute or a political power struggle instead of people actually killing each other.
Many Jacen Solo fans would say otherwise. They thought his fall was absolute bullshit and they stopped reading the books as a result. This is where some EU haters come from: they hated seeing characters they loved butchered for the sake of shock value and padding out a conflict nobody cared for. Which is of course, why some of these readers turn violently against parts of the EU that they really disliked.
The problem isn't Jacen's fall as an idea, in fact, that's why I think LOTF would have worked better if it were set 50 years after the Vong War. We just saw Jacen basically embody the Light when he defeated the Vong leadership, so to go from that to Dark Side in a short amount of time made many Jacen fans really get pissed off. Whereas if Jacen lived longer, became more pessimistic, as decades pass and people forget the lessons of yesterday and entertain the idea of another massive war as the old guard die out, that would be a good motivation for a Jedi who once experienced one-ness with the Light to fall to the Dark Side to end senseless conflict. And of course, the very idea that one can work to end conflict once and for all is bullshit because it goes against human (or mortal) nature. As the Sniper from TF2 once said, "so long as there's two people on the planet, someone's gonna want someone dead." Someone as smart as Jacen should have eventually grown out of such naive ideas.
Er, yes it would. Historically, there have been times where people ignore obvious threats because they were too weary of war. Have you ever seen the Nazis? People ignored the Nazis and their acts of aggression against Jews and other countries, until the Nazis were literally about to invade Poland with Soviet support-mostly because Europe was so weary about World War I that they ignored acts of aggression by Italian, German, and Japanese governments. Quite literally, that's what allowed the Nazis to rise in power so much. If war-weariness isn't enough to stop people from removing a cancer growing in their domains, the British and French would have slaughtered the Nazis before they had the chance to re-arm. Instead, they accommodated Hitler until eventually, Hitler broke his word to the point where they could no longer accommodate him.
The last thing that Rebel Alliance veterans would do is fight a war with each other. A trade war, they might have, perhaps. Or a political struggle. But an actual shooting war? Between people who have had to suffer the Separatists, the Empire, and the Vong in one lifetime? Yeah, no. That's the last thing they'd do. Again, they'd probably reconvene the Senate instead and let them figure it out, or put in some old Alliance war dog in power, someone like Garm Bel Iblis, and let him sort the political shit out while the rest of the galaxy rebuilds. Again, this is why LOTF should have taken place decades after the Vong War, so that many of those Alliance comrades would have died off, setting the stage for a new generation that didn't experience the horrors of war, that doesn't have those bonds of friendship born of war.
Yes, but intense political turmoil takes years, if not decades, to flare up into war. And unlike the SW galaxy where they had THREE TOTAL WARS in a row, most wars in human history were summer wars that came and went.
The Hundred-Years War was more a series of medieval conflicts that ended with more conflict. Plus, the weapons technology at the time didn't allow for the kind of massacre as modern weapons could, most of them were still coming at each other with swords and arrows. It essentially isn't the same as say, World War 1, where the war was so bad people began to talk of banning wars after it. Or the Napoleonic Wars, where again, the war fatigue was so bad that most major European powers didn't fight large wars for almost a century after it ended, preferring instead small, summer wars that are smaller conflicts.
When World War 1 ended, it took another 20 years before another war broke out, and even then, one side was trying to appease the other side rather profusely until it was clear they couldn't be appeased anymore. Also, the war was between the Galactic Alliance and the Confederation, which obviously wasn't a local conflict when worlds like Fondor, Bespin, and Bothawui also joined Corellia against the GA. That's like if, after the Cold War, several wealthy and powerful European countries joined forces against the United States. With several wealthy and powerful worlds joining forces against a battered and bruised Alliance, the conflict was anything but local, since both outer rim worlds like Bespin and mid-rim worlds like Bothawui were involved. So it definitely wasn't just a local squabble between two core worlds that would just make for something that the rest of the galaxy watches, like say the Blockade of Naboo by the Trade Federation. (And even then, such a local conflict still affected Coruscant to the point where the SUPREME CHANCELLOR LOST HIS POST)
War fatigue has shown up more than once in Star Wars. In SWTOR, it's the reason why the Republic even bothered to enter negotiations with the True Sith Empire in the first Great Galactic War: they were successful in pushing the Sith out of the mid-rim and they were winning by that time, but their forces were tired and battered by years of war, hence why they held a peace summit in Alderaan. The True Sith then used that to distract the Republic while their forces sacked Coruscant. The Galactic Empire, also similarly battered by internal conflicts and outside losses, signed a peace treaty with the New Republic despite the fact that they could have kept on fighting-mostly because they too were tired of war. And the New Republic was more than willing to tolerate them because despite their many victories against the empire, continued war would have benefited nobody and the war was beginning to tire them out. The only reason they fought so hard against the Vong was because it was a war of survival against a truly alien species who wanted to destroy their civilization. War fatigue also has its effects: in a galaxy that's tired of war, they're more than okay with authority figures going overboard to stop future wars. When Palpatine was enslaving and subjugating former Separatists, the galaxy didn't give a damn because they were tired of fighting the Seps and felt that enslaving or extinguishing them would be a necessary price for peace. When Tarkin blasted Alderaan into space dust for encouraging war against the Empire, more than half the galaxy remained loyal to the Empire because they didn't want Clone Wars 2.0 and they thought Alderaan was turning into the next Geonosis. So why Corellia didn't get penalized for dragging wealthy, influential worlds into a coalition that waged war on the Galactic Alliance is beyond me.
Cal Omas was a hothead, but given how fragile the Galactic Alliance's position was, it makes sense that he was "vigilant." However, the fact that Corellians stuck with a known con man like Thrackan Sal-Solo and waged war for completely petty reasons is again, another reason why it felt very unrealistic, especially given how many Corellians were involved in the Alliance forces. If anything, it would have made more sense for some outer-rim mudball to be the center of hostility to the GA, the same way outer-rim worlds provided much support for the Confederacy of Independent Systems against the Coruscant-based Galactic Republic. Again, Corellia had plenty of benefits from being that close to Coruscant AND the fact that they were a wealthy core world. Paying more taxes to help rebuild just makes sense after all the damage wrought by the Vong. The fact that Corellians were so gullible and easily-swayed by Thrackan makes them even bigger saps than the Jedi during the Clone Wars or Jar Jar Binks. At least Binks and the Jedi were dealing with a massive droid army about to knock the Republic down, so they supported giving the Chancellor emergency powers and accepted his use of the Clone Army with very little questioning.
Garm Bel Iblis was still alive after the Vong War. And again, there's plenty of old Alliance war dogs like Wedge or Lando whom they could have put in charge while the rest of the old guard dedicated their lives to rebuilding what the Separatists, Imperials, and Vong destroyed.
Again, the galaxy would frown upon inter-planetary warfare for several decades after the mess that was the Galactic Civil War and the Yuuzhan Vong War. Down to the point where they'd probably glass anyone who tried anything against the Galactic Alliance. Forget Cal Omas or Jacen, many old guard Rebels and Imperials who fought against the Vong AND against each other would probably react to a coalition against the GA with "bomb them until you see Hell." Hence why I proposed that LOTF should have taken place 50 years later, so that the war-weary masses who survived those wars would be dead, and you'd just be left with an aging, pessimistic Jacen having to deal with young brats wanting to start another war for petty reasons.
And of course, anyone who cracks open the Legacy Era comics can find references to almost everything EXCEPT LOTF. There's the KOTOR subplot with the Muur Talisman and Celeste Morne. The Sith/Imperial subplot where they're both trying to retake what they believed to be theirs. The Vong subplot where people still have bad feelings about the Vong. And we also see the New Jedi Order helmed by a Skywalker. But there's absolutely nothing about Corellia's attempt to rebel against the Galactic Alliance or anything about the Second Galactic Civil War. It's as if LOTF was a hangover the EU had between the Vong era and the Legacy era that it swiftly forgot as it moved on. And the fact that LOTF did a lot of unpopular things makes it easier for EU fans to have selective amnesia and delete that part of the EU in their minds while just having the Vong storyline be succeeded by the Legacy Era. Because again, that was the perfect place to leave the OT cast at. Sure, throw Abeloth into the post-Vong era to provide a Force-based final boss, but aside from that, the long hard war they had with the Vong where the Alliance and the Empire joined forces to slay the Vong threat was such a nice capstone to the plot of the OT characters, as well as the EU characters for the OT era, too. Thrawn joined the Empire so that he can prepare the galaxy for the coming Yuuzhan Vong. The galaxy defeating the main threat that Thrawn and the Empire were gearing up to fight places the story to rest at such an opportune time-they slew the final boss that Palpatine and Thrawn were gearing up to take on.
For things to denigrate back into war in such a short timeframe (10 years) after the defeat of the Vong makes things really messy for the story, and all they did with it was do things that piss off the fans, like Jaina begging Boba Fett for help, Jacen turning evil, and Mara getting axed. Many fans of the EU who followed those characters from one tome to the next REALLY hated those changes. So forgive me for not taking your side in this, but I do see the hate for LOTF coming from many EU fans as justified. The series just seems like one of those comic book plots where shocking and messy things happen for the sake of shock value, then it gets cleaned up in a couple books and things go fine as if it never happened.
If the OT characters were limited in scope by Lucas setting forth guidelines, the right idea would have been to set LOTF in a place where it was AFTER the OT cast died off. That way, you can do whatever you want with the story, and it would make sense for a new war to break out once the war-weary generations of the past die off and a new generation of young blood takes center stage. If you can do whatever you want with the Solo kids but not the OT characters, then the best way to make more stories out of them is to have them take place AFTER the OT cast bit the dust, for full versatility and range of stories, and to make the idea of a second Galactic Civil War be more realistic once the generations that saw the Clone Wars and Galactic Civil War died off.
No, to me, the OT characters were just showing their age in LOTF. It felt like they didn't belong there, that they were heroes of another time. And it felt artificial because we KNOW Han, Leia, and Luke can't be killed, so part of the suspense is gone. We know that once Luke and the others face Jacen, he's getting his ass kicked, because the opposite result would draw the wrath of George Lucas. Frankly, everyone came off as if they were holding the idiot ball in LOTF, every faction, every character. Especially when that petty war between Coruscant and Corellia would have been better off being a trade dispute or a political power struggle instead of people actually killing each other.
Many Jacen Solo fans would say otherwise. They thought his fall was absolute bullshit and they stopped reading the books as a result. This is where some EU haters come from: they hated seeing characters they loved butchered for the sake of shock value and padding out a conflict nobody cared for. Which is of course, why some of these readers turn violently against parts of the EU that they really disliked.
The problem isn't Jacen's fall as an idea, in fact, that's why I think LOTF would have worked better if it were set 50 years after the Vong War. We just saw Jacen basically embody the Light when he defeated the Vong leadership, so to go from that to Dark Side in a short amount of time made many Jacen fans really get pissed off. Whereas if Jacen lived longer, became more pessimistic, as decades pass and people forget the lessons of yesterday and entertain the idea of another massive war as the old guard die out, that would be a good motivation for a Jedi who once experienced one-ness with the Light to fall to the Dark Side to end senseless conflict. And of course, the very idea that one can work to end conflict once and for all is bullshit because it goes against human (or mortal) nature. As the Sniper from TF2 once said, "so long as there's two people on the planet, someone's gonna want someone dead." Someone as smart as Jacen should have eventually grown out of such naive ideas.
Er, yes it would. Historically, there have been times where people ignore obvious threats because they were too weary of war. Have you ever seen the Nazis? People ignored the Nazis and their acts of aggression against Jews and other countries, until the Nazis were literally about to invade Poland with Soviet support-mostly because Europe was so weary about World War I that they ignored acts of aggression by Italian, German, and Japanese governments. Quite literally, that's what allowed the Nazis to rise in power so much. If war-weariness isn't enough to stop people from removing a cancer growing in their domains, the British and French would have slaughtered the Nazis before they had the chance to re-arm. Instead, they accommodated Hitler until eventually, Hitler broke his word to the point where they could no longer accommodate him.
The last thing that Rebel Alliance veterans would do is fight a war with each other. A trade war, they might have, perhaps. Or a political struggle. But an actual shooting war? Between people who have had to suffer the Separatists, the Empire, and the Vong in one lifetime? Yeah, no. That's the last thing they'd do. Again, they'd probably reconvene the Senate instead and let them figure it out, or put in some old Alliance war dog in power, someone like Garm Bel Iblis, and let him sort the political shit out while the rest of the galaxy rebuilds. Again, this is why LOTF should have taken place decades after the Vong War, so that many of those Alliance comrades would have died off, setting the stage for a new generation that didn't experience the horrors of war, that doesn't have those bonds of friendship born of war.
Yes, but intense political turmoil takes years, if not decades, to flare up into war. And unlike the SW galaxy where they had THREE TOTAL WARS in a row, most wars in human history were summer wars that came and went.
The Hundred-Years War was more a series of medieval conflicts that ended with more conflict. Plus, the weapons technology at the time didn't allow for the kind of massacre as modern weapons could, most of them were still coming at each other with swords and arrows. It essentially isn't the same as say, World War 1, where the war was so bad people began to talk of banning wars after it. Or the Napoleonic Wars, where again, the war fatigue was so bad that most major European powers didn't fight large wars for almost a century after it ended, preferring instead small, summer wars that are smaller conflicts.
When World War 1 ended, it took another 20 years before another war broke out, and even then, one side was trying to appease the other side rather profusely until it was clear they couldn't be appeased anymore. Also, the war was between the Galactic Alliance and the Confederation, which obviously wasn't a local conflict when worlds like Fondor, Bespin, and Bothawui also joined Corellia against the GA. That's like if, after the Cold War, several wealthy and powerful European countries joined forces against the United States. With several wealthy and powerful worlds joining forces against a battered and bruised Alliance, the conflict was anything but local, since both outer rim worlds like Bespin and mid-rim worlds like Bothawui were involved. So it definitely wasn't just a local squabble between two core worlds that would just make for something that the rest of the galaxy watches, like say the Blockade of Naboo by the Trade Federation. (And even then, such a local conflict still affected Coruscant to the point where the SUPREME CHANCELLOR LOST HIS POST)
War fatigue has shown up more than once in Star Wars. In SWTOR, it's the reason why the Republic even bothered to enter negotiations with the True Sith Empire in the first Great Galactic War: they were successful in pushing the Sith out of the mid-rim and they were winning by that time, but their forces were tired and battered by years of war, hence why they held a peace summit in Alderaan. The True Sith then used that to distract the Republic while their forces sacked Coruscant. The Galactic Empire, also similarly battered by internal conflicts and outside losses, signed a peace treaty with the New Republic despite the fact that they could have kept on fighting-mostly because they too were tired of war. And the New Republic was more than willing to tolerate them because despite their many victories against the empire, continued war would have benefited nobody and the war was beginning to tire them out. The only reason they fought so hard against the Vong was because it was a war of survival against a truly alien species who wanted to destroy their civilization. War fatigue also has its effects: in a galaxy that's tired of war, they're more than okay with authority figures going overboard to stop future wars. When Palpatine was enslaving and subjugating former Separatists, the galaxy didn't give a damn because they were tired of fighting the Seps and felt that enslaving or extinguishing them would be a necessary price for peace. When Tarkin blasted Alderaan into space dust for encouraging war against the Empire, more than half the galaxy remained loyal to the Empire because they didn't want Clone Wars 2.0 and they thought Alderaan was turning into the next Geonosis. So why Corellia didn't get penalized for dragging wealthy, influential worlds into a coalition that waged war on the Galactic Alliance is beyond me.
Cal Omas was a hothead, but given how fragile the Galactic Alliance's position was, it makes sense that he was "vigilant." However, the fact that Corellians stuck with a known con man like Thrackan Sal-Solo and waged war for completely petty reasons is again, another reason why it felt very unrealistic, especially given how many Corellians were involved in the Alliance forces. If anything, it would have made more sense for some outer-rim mudball to be the center of hostility to the GA, the same way outer-rim worlds provided much support for the Confederacy of Independent Systems against the Coruscant-based Galactic Republic. Again, Corellia had plenty of benefits from being that close to Coruscant AND the fact that they were a wealthy core world. Paying more taxes to help rebuild just makes sense after all the damage wrought by the Vong. The fact that Corellians were so gullible and easily-swayed by Thrackan makes them even bigger saps than the Jedi during the Clone Wars or Jar Jar Binks. At least Binks and the Jedi were dealing with a massive droid army about to knock the Republic down, so they supported giving the Chancellor emergency powers and accepted his use of the Clone Army with very little questioning.
Garm Bel Iblis was still alive after the Vong War. And again, there's plenty of old Alliance war dogs like Wedge or Lando whom they could have put in charge while the rest of the old guard dedicated their lives to rebuilding what the Separatists, Imperials, and Vong destroyed.
Again, the galaxy would frown upon inter-planetary warfare for several decades after the mess that was the Galactic Civil War and the Yuuzhan Vong War. Down to the point where they'd probably glass anyone who tried anything against the Galactic Alliance. Forget Cal Omas or Jacen, many old guard Rebels and Imperials who fought against the Vong AND against each other would probably react to a coalition against the GA with "bomb them until you see Hell." Hence why I proposed that LOTF should have taken place 50 years later, so that the war-weary masses who survived those wars would be dead, and you'd just be left with an aging, pessimistic Jacen having to deal with young brats wanting to start another war for petty reasons.
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kiwifarms.net
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Sorry for the double post, but it has to be done.
That's because the Americans were already divided BEFORE the war with Mexico. The North didn't want to go to war because it would add more slave states. The South wanted to go to war for that exact same reason. Not only that, but the Mexican-American War also didn't cause as much damage to America as say, the GCW or the Vong War did to the SW galaxy. They got to conquer a foreign country and take their stuff. And of course, even outside of West Point, the North and the South were already fighting each other in every way outside of official war, with political and territorial battles in Congress and the Western Territories, as well as pro-slavery and anti-slavery rhetoric fueling the fire. And of course, after the total war that exhausted the North and decimated the South, both sides were eager for peace and reconstruction to mend what the fighting destroyed.
And again, comparing the Yuuzhan Vong War or the Galactic Civil War to the Mexican-American War is nonsense, since it was practically a summer war, while the Yuuzhan Vong War or the GCW is the equivalent of World War II or the Thirty Years' War. There's a big difference between summer wars and total wars. A summer war is like the Battle of Naboo in Episode I, where it was a local conflict that didn't last long. A total war would be the Clone Wars, the Galactic Civil War, or the Yuuzhan Vong War, where the war is so destructive that the full resources of the nation gets involved and it lasts for years on end. The former kind of war barely creates any fatigue and usually leads to more wars down the line. A total war is like World War 1, where people get so sick of war they swear off war altogether, for a good couple decades.
The galaxy of Star Wars went through not one, not two, but THREE TOTAL WARS in the span of ONE LIFETIME. People like Garm Bel Iblis and other old Alliance war dogs lived through not only the Clone Wars, but the Galactic Civil War and the Yuuzhan Vong War as well. Most generations would crack after one total war, hence why the generation that lost the most lives in WWI was called the "Lost Generation" and many survivors were depressed and disillusioned. Heck, America nearly cracked after Vietnam, and that wasn't even a total war since we weren't bombing the North Vietnamese into rubble like we did the Japanese or Germans. Soviet Russia cracked after Afghanistan, where many of their men getting killed by desert guerillas caused such instability between the army and the Communist Party that the fall of the USSR was practically assured. So I'm pretty sure that after three wars that damn near destroyed the galactic civilization, people would try to ensure peace at any cost. They would realistically react to Corellia drawing worlds into a military coalition against the Galactic Alliance by sending a massive fleet accompanied by a Super Star Destroyer to bomb the planet into cinders, or at least threaten to.
Yeah, no. I've seen people in real life change their personal principles to what their friends and comrades think just so they can fit in better. Old friends who have fought alongside each other for DECADES going against each other in a war for the sake of personal principles makes no goddamn sense. Especially since in the end, outside of a few characters, most of them wanted the same damn thing in the end and believed in the same core principles of freedom, democracy, and peace. They'd just tell the politicians to sort this shit out or put a reliable face in charge to sort things over.
No shit, Thrackan is a piece of filth. The one thing I was wondering is why so many followed him. And why he wasn't crucified upside-down after being flayed and tortured by a Vong mercenary hired by the GA. At least when people followed Palpatine, his public record was spotless and some even thought he could have made a great Jedi, not knowing who he really was behind the warm smiles and empty platitudes.
Coruscant only reacted to the violence the Corellians started, like terrorist attacks and trying to use Centerpoint Station. That, and the GA won in the end, so why the hell Daala wasn't stripping Corellia bare after the war is beyond me.
The fact that both sides were using such unlikeable tactics practically showed me what kind of story it was-the authors were padding out the tale as if it was Warhammer 40K, where both sides are wrong, but some sides are just even more wrong. Jacen Solo on the one side, Thrackan Sal-Solo on the other, I would have sooner thrown my support with the Empire conquering both the GA and Corellia considering they were both led by twats. At least Pellaeon had his head on straight. Unlike the Clone Wars, however, where there was peace for 1000 years as well as political problems that have festered for centuries, I really didn't see a good reason why former friends were fighting each other.
It wasn't just that people didn't want to oppose the Empire after they blew up Alderaan-many decent, honest people believed Palpatine's propagandists when they said that the Rebels were just the CIS 2.0. More than half the galaxy believed so. Many of them had such bad memories of the Clone Wars that the idea of another war was something they couldn't stomach, so to them, blowing up a planet that was shaping to be the next Geonosis was more acceptable than a rich, powerful core world funding a large rebel movement that could engulf the galaxy. For every one citizen scared of Palpatine, there is another who believed he was right and went along with the system for entirely valid reasons. Even after the Death Star blew up, many people remained loyal to the Empire, because they believed the Emperor was right and that a second Clone Wars has to be averted at all costs-even if it meant the slavery, subjugation, and extermination of those who might get in the way. Now take that war-weariness and multiply it by a factor of three, because the people went through THREE massive, galaxy-spanning wars. Which again, is why they would have reacted to Corellia planning an insurrection by pulling a Darth Malak on their asses, or at least threatening to. I mean, shit, that's what the Republic did to the Sith Empire after the Great Hyperspace War, so even the good guys weren't above that nonsense.
Again, that's why the way LOTF is written really doesn't make any sense to me. If what you say is true and the last thing that old Alliance war dogs would do is pull Empire-style tactics on each other, then Cal Omas would have gotten fired and Jacen Solo would be relieved of command by the GA military while they fight the Corellians using less barbaric tactics that can force them to retreat. The Corellians likewise would have fired Thrackan Sal-Solo into a black hole and would never resort to trying to use Centerpoint Station. After which both sides calm down and start TALKING again instead of fighting. Instead, both sides acted like asshats and tried to pull Empire-style tricks, with the Corellians trying to use a superweapon and the GA going full SS with the Galactic Alliance Guard being the new 501st Legion. And if that's the case, then yes, the people would pretty much react to them the same way the Imperial populace reacted when Papa Palpatine was enslaving and killing off Sep allies: by looking the other way as warmongers and their followers got brutalized by a war-weary galaxy wanting to avoid another large-scale war. Because if they're going to act like mad dogs, then people won't care if these warmongers got treated like mad dogs: taken out back and slaughtered for pig feed. And the fact that the Corellians started it by conducting terrorist attacks and trying to use Centerpoint Station against the GA would mean that the people's ire would be focused on them. Especially since the war is so petty that literally nothing would have happened to Corellia if they didn't wage war at all.
No, I still believe that LOTF would have been better off once the old guard were dead, that way, a new generation that's ripe for another war would be the logical starting point for the Second Galactic Civil War. And you can still have Jacen and the others react off them, after all FORCE GHOSTS are a thing. You can have Jacen battle the Force Ghost of Luke the same way Starkiller from the Tatooine DLC of Force Unleashed battled Obi-Wan's ghost. At the very least, if Jacen drove off Mara Jade's Force Ghost after a brief fight, it wouldn't be as annoying to Jacen Solo and Mara Jade fans as her actual death being at Jacen's hands.
The ST was bad because they had bad writers and direction. Not because it leaped further in time. False equivalency. Legacy Era showed us that you can jump 130 years forward in time and still have a good story arc.
Not really. What I proposed was that Jacen's turn to the Dark would be slow, gradual. Especially since he was a Jedi who, unlike Anakin Skywalker, grew up in a loving home where he was treated well and raised with care. It would take longer than a decade to turn him fully to the Dark Side, especially with how he was one with the Light at the end of the Vong War, so him turning in a decade makes no sense. Anakin Skywalker took a decade to turn from a young Jedi recruit to a Sith Lord, and that kid already had issues before becoming a Jedi. For someone like Jacen, who achieved heights that Anakin can only dream of, it should have taken even longer. Hence why my idea of a pessimistic Jacen considering the Dark Side after decades of keeping the peace made him less optimistic is better. It wears down the defenses and makes him more susceptible to darkness with age.
Considering that most EU fans would want LOTF booted into a black hole, that seems to be a good trade-off. People can just then imagine what the gang was up to in their halcyon years of joy and twilight as they finally relaxed in the brave new world they created at the end of the OT. Instead of beating the dead horse with a warhammer and sticking characters from the OT into a conflict they obviously can't lose because if they did, Lucas would get pissed and boot that shit out of the canon.
Yes, instead we got LOTF, and Jacen fans, Mara Jade fans, and many EU fans were pissed off at that stuff.
The difference is, the Mexican War which preceded the Civil War, as I said, was a small conflict that left Americans wanting more, especially as two sides in the US were already hating each other BEFORE the Mexican War started. Meanwhile, the SW galaxy went through three galaxy-spanning conflicts, which is like having three world wars happen in a single lifetime. At that point, any delusions of wars ending quickly would have been removed, due to people having experience from three massive, galaxy-spanning wars. They would be more than knowledgeable that the war wouldn't be as quick as they thought it would be, just as the generation of WW2 didn't have the same delusions the WW1 generation did about the war ending before the autumn leaves falling off the trees. Which is again, why I would have placed LOTF half a century after the Vong War, which would make it more believable since the people who WOULD know that wars don't end quickly would be either old or dead, and many young hotshots would have no experience to dispel their delusions that war can be settled swiftly and decisively.
The war between the GA and Corellia threatened to explode into a galaxy-wide conflict similar to the Clone Wars and GCW. In fact, they even called it the SECOND GALACTIC CIVIL WAR. Ergo, a generation that's had to suffer THREE TOTAL WARS would be very sour on that. At most, it would have been more likely that such battles between Coruscant and Corellia would be restrained to political talk and trade embargoes. Only decades later would it explode into total war, once the previous generations who lived through three total wars die off and the rhetoric of confrontation between Corellia and Coruscant grows hotter and more intense as younger, more nationalistic figureheads expand a political/economic conflict into an actual war.
The galaxy just went through three wars that tore it in half. The galactic populace is 100 quadrillion in Legends. So even if 1% of the populace died in the GCW and the Clone Wars, that would be like, one quadrillion people dead, which beats the figure of the Yuuzhan Vong War which was 365 trillion people dead. If the Clone Wars and the GCW did not kill as much as the Vong War did, that means that they killed less than 1/3 of 1% of the galactic populace. And need I remind you, the Clone Wars involved two halves of the galaxy waging war with each other, and in the GCW's case, the war turned into a bloodbath Empire descending into military anarchy as warlords waged war on each other and weakened the Empire severely) waging war.
And even if it was the case, don't you think a war that killed 365 trillion would have convinced everyone that they should calm the fuck down for at least a couple decades, if not half a century?
My main problem is PRECISELY LOTF's story. Why the fuck would the Corellians follow a known crook to wage war against Coruscant when for millennia, the two planets prospered as partners and allies? And of course, planets like Bothawui, Fondor, Bespin, and Adumar joining Corellia's Confederation along with the Hutts, Eriadu, and Commenor is NOT a local war. Again, this is a story that would have worked better if it was set decades after the Vong War, where you can have ambitious people take over these planets and wage war for selfish political goals that old Alliance war veterans would have never seen as justifications for war. That way, old loyalties like the Alliance cause would have died down, and THEN you can have planetary loyalty be a thing that motivates war again, just like it did back in the old Confederate days in the Clone Wars where planetary loyalists joined the Confederacy to strike back at the Republic after A THOUSAND YEARS OF PEACE.
starwars.fandom.com
The EU quite literally had the heroes pull off galaxy-saving heroics all the time. That, and LOTF's story and its handling of characters like Jacen and Mara Jade reek of bad cape-shit stories where they start conflicts for the sake of shock value then clean it up nicely afterwards, with Corellia barely being punished by the victorious Alliance. Which is of course why many people switched to manga and why many EU fans think LOTF is akin to a bad hangover. ESPECIALLY Jacen Solo and Mara Jade fans who dropped off after LOTF.
In fact, in other EU works, Corellians are characterized as people willing to do their part for the galaxy. SWTOR, which does a lot of content on Corellia, has Corellians aiming to join one side or another. The political elite are willing to be pro-Imperials, while the cops, Jedi, and average soldiers on Corellia are staunchly loyal to Coruscant and the Republic. None of them want Corellia to go at it on their own or strike out as an independent faction. It is EXACTLY the characterization of Corellia in LOTF which I have a problem with. Especially considering the fact that many Alliance aces are Corellians. You'd think they'd be the first to keep in power a government they fought for. At this case, it would have been more appropriate if another outer or mid-rim planet was the staging area for the resistance against Coruscant and the Galactic Alliance, while the Corellians would provide Coruscant's government with top-of-the-line ships and pilots like they did for A THOUSAND GENERATIONS!
If the GFFA is the one that scares the shit out of the Coruscanti and the people, then Cal Omas would have been booted from office rather quickly and replaced by someone with a calm head like Pellaeon or Garm. And to think that GA soldiers are mostly Alliance vets-that would have gotten Cal Omas kicked out fast if his actions reminded them of the Empire Again, the story makes little sense, and it seems that it was just manufacturing conflict for the sake of "we have to have a war!" without thinking things through.
Corellia's love affair with Thrackan just annoys me. Again, in other SW works, when monsters like Palpatine kept getting re-elected, it's because A) he keeps the icky shit he does away from public eyes and B) even the good guys are fooled by him 95% of the time.
People complain about how it's not like the old space heroics of the past, because in those old space heroics, things actually made more sense. We understood why the good guys were good, the bad guys were bad, and even in grey conflicts like the Clone Wars, the Seps were fighting for Outer Rim worlds that were ignored by the Republic and Jedi for generations, while the Jedi and the Republic are fighting to maintain their 25,000-year-old Republic. Corellia and Coruscant having a brawl and involving other planets wouldn't make much sense, especially since A) traditionally, the two have been close allies, B) the galaxy just suffered through three total wars, and C) literally NOTHING will happen to Corellia if they don't declare war. Even when scumbags like Sidious and Tyranus inflamed war between the Separatists and the Republic, both sides had a justifiable reason: the Republic fears that the Separatists want to destroy them, which they do, and the Seps fear the Republic wants to drag them back into its domain, which it does.
You do realize that the galaxy at large didn't know about Anakin's relationship with Padme or that he had a begrudging relationship with Obi-Wan Kenobi? It wasn't as public as Jacen Solo going to the Dark Side and getting taken down by his family. Heck, people thought Anakin was a complete saint who got killed protecting younglings at the Jedi Council Chambers. I'm pretty sure a major bruhaha in the Solo clan that ended with one kid falling the Dark Side and the other coming after the former would be well-known, especially by the Sith, who would be the kind of people to taunt the Jedi about those things. "Haha, remember that one time when one of your brightest pupils turned evil and embarrassed you all in front of the galaxy? Was it Anakin? Or was it Jacen? We're losing count!" Darth Krayt might even taunt Cade Skywalker by saying that more than one Skywalker ended up falling to the Dark Side and how he should follow suit. And again, if Corellia rebelled against Coruscant over petty slights, then a tyrant taking over Coruscant should have caused the Corellians to flip the table and go rogue. Instead, when a real tyrant who revived the Empire took over Coruscant again, Corellia keeled over like Prime Minister Falcone did to the Sith in SWTOR. So much for a strongly independent people. There wasn't even a Corellian resistance against Krayt and the One Sith as they dominated the Empire and then the galaxy.
Maybe a more private story not involving planetary wars would have done better to flesh out the Solo family issues. Like say, the hunt for Abeloth. Imagine that shit going on while Jacen and Lumiya were still alive. Maybe Jacen could use his one-ness with the Force as a final trump card against Abeloth, while Lumiya does her part by poring over Sith tomes finding a weakness against the dark creature. Again, it just goes to show how better things are if we cut out LOTF entirely and went from the Vong to Abeloth and later, the Legacy Era.
And again, comparing the Yuuzhan Vong War or the Galactic Civil War to the Mexican-American War is nonsense, since it was practically a summer war, while the Yuuzhan Vong War or the GCW is the equivalent of World War II or the Thirty Years' War. There's a big difference between summer wars and total wars. A summer war is like the Battle of Naboo in Episode I, where it was a local conflict that didn't last long. A total war would be the Clone Wars, the Galactic Civil War, or the Yuuzhan Vong War, where the war is so destructive that the full resources of the nation gets involved and it lasts for years on end. The former kind of war barely creates any fatigue and usually leads to more wars down the line. A total war is like World War 1, where people get so sick of war they swear off war altogether, for a good couple decades.
The galaxy of Star Wars went through not one, not two, but THREE TOTAL WARS in the span of ONE LIFETIME. People like Garm Bel Iblis and other old Alliance war dogs lived through not only the Clone Wars, but the Galactic Civil War and the Yuuzhan Vong War as well. Most generations would crack after one total war, hence why the generation that lost the most lives in WWI was called the "Lost Generation" and many survivors were depressed and disillusioned. Heck, America nearly cracked after Vietnam, and that wasn't even a total war since we weren't bombing the North Vietnamese into rubble like we did the Japanese or Germans. Soviet Russia cracked after Afghanistan, where many of their men getting killed by desert guerillas caused such instability between the army and the Communist Party that the fall of the USSR was practically assured. So I'm pretty sure that after three wars that damn near destroyed the galactic civilization, people would try to ensure peace at any cost. They would realistically react to Corellia drawing worlds into a military coalition against the Galactic Alliance by sending a massive fleet accompanied by a Super Star Destroyer to bomb the planet into cinders, or at least threaten to.
Yeah, no. I've seen people in real life change their personal principles to what their friends and comrades think just so they can fit in better. Old friends who have fought alongside each other for DECADES going against each other in a war for the sake of personal principles makes no goddamn sense. Especially since in the end, outside of a few characters, most of them wanted the same damn thing in the end and believed in the same core principles of freedom, democracy, and peace. They'd just tell the politicians to sort this shit out or put a reliable face in charge to sort things over.
No shit, Thrackan is a piece of filth. The one thing I was wondering is why so many followed him. And why he wasn't crucified upside-down after being flayed and tortured by a Vong mercenary hired by the GA. At least when people followed Palpatine, his public record was spotless and some even thought he could have made a great Jedi, not knowing who he really was behind the warm smiles and empty platitudes.
Coruscant only reacted to the violence the Corellians started, like terrorist attacks and trying to use Centerpoint Station. That, and the GA won in the end, so why the hell Daala wasn't stripping Corellia bare after the war is beyond me.
The fact that both sides were using such unlikeable tactics practically showed me what kind of story it was-the authors were padding out the tale as if it was Warhammer 40K, where both sides are wrong, but some sides are just even more wrong. Jacen Solo on the one side, Thrackan Sal-Solo on the other, I would have sooner thrown my support with the Empire conquering both the GA and Corellia considering they were both led by twats. At least Pellaeon had his head on straight. Unlike the Clone Wars, however, where there was peace for 1000 years as well as political problems that have festered for centuries, I really didn't see a good reason why former friends were fighting each other.
It wasn't just that people didn't want to oppose the Empire after they blew up Alderaan-many decent, honest people believed Palpatine's propagandists when they said that the Rebels were just the CIS 2.0. More than half the galaxy believed so. Many of them had such bad memories of the Clone Wars that the idea of another war was something they couldn't stomach, so to them, blowing up a planet that was shaping to be the next Geonosis was more acceptable than a rich, powerful core world funding a large rebel movement that could engulf the galaxy. For every one citizen scared of Palpatine, there is another who believed he was right and went along with the system for entirely valid reasons. Even after the Death Star blew up, many people remained loyal to the Empire, because they believed the Emperor was right and that a second Clone Wars has to be averted at all costs-even if it meant the slavery, subjugation, and extermination of those who might get in the way. Now take that war-weariness and multiply it by a factor of three, because the people went through THREE massive, galaxy-spanning wars. Which again, is why they would have reacted to Corellia planning an insurrection by pulling a Darth Malak on their asses, or at least threatening to. I mean, shit, that's what the Republic did to the Sith Empire after the Great Hyperspace War, so even the good guys weren't above that nonsense.
Again, that's why the way LOTF is written really doesn't make any sense to me. If what you say is true and the last thing that old Alliance war dogs would do is pull Empire-style tactics on each other, then Cal Omas would have gotten fired and Jacen Solo would be relieved of command by the GA military while they fight the Corellians using less barbaric tactics that can force them to retreat. The Corellians likewise would have fired Thrackan Sal-Solo into a black hole and would never resort to trying to use Centerpoint Station. After which both sides calm down and start TALKING again instead of fighting. Instead, both sides acted like asshats and tried to pull Empire-style tricks, with the Corellians trying to use a superweapon and the GA going full SS with the Galactic Alliance Guard being the new 501st Legion. And if that's the case, then yes, the people would pretty much react to them the same way the Imperial populace reacted when Papa Palpatine was enslaving and killing off Sep allies: by looking the other way as warmongers and their followers got brutalized by a war-weary galaxy wanting to avoid another large-scale war. Because if they're going to act like mad dogs, then people won't care if these warmongers got treated like mad dogs: taken out back and slaughtered for pig feed. And the fact that the Corellians started it by conducting terrorist attacks and trying to use Centerpoint Station against the GA would mean that the people's ire would be focused on them. Especially since the war is so petty that literally nothing would have happened to Corellia if they didn't wage war at all.
No, I still believe that LOTF would have been better off once the old guard were dead, that way, a new generation that's ripe for another war would be the logical starting point for the Second Galactic Civil War. And you can still have Jacen and the others react off them, after all FORCE GHOSTS are a thing. You can have Jacen battle the Force Ghost of Luke the same way Starkiller from the Tatooine DLC of Force Unleashed battled Obi-Wan's ghost. At the very least, if Jacen drove off Mara Jade's Force Ghost after a brief fight, it wouldn't be as annoying to Jacen Solo and Mara Jade fans as her actual death being at Jacen's hands.
The ST was bad because they had bad writers and direction. Not because it leaped further in time. False equivalency. Legacy Era showed us that you can jump 130 years forward in time and still have a good story arc.
Not really. What I proposed was that Jacen's turn to the Dark would be slow, gradual. Especially since he was a Jedi who, unlike Anakin Skywalker, grew up in a loving home where he was treated well and raised with care. It would take longer than a decade to turn him fully to the Dark Side, especially with how he was one with the Light at the end of the Vong War, so him turning in a decade makes no sense. Anakin Skywalker took a decade to turn from a young Jedi recruit to a Sith Lord, and that kid already had issues before becoming a Jedi. For someone like Jacen, who achieved heights that Anakin can only dream of, it should have taken even longer. Hence why my idea of a pessimistic Jacen considering the Dark Side after decades of keeping the peace made him less optimistic is better. It wears down the defenses and makes him more susceptible to darkness with age.
Considering that most EU fans would want LOTF booted into a black hole, that seems to be a good trade-off. People can just then imagine what the gang was up to in their halcyon years of joy and twilight as they finally relaxed in the brave new world they created at the end of the OT. Instead of beating the dead horse with a warhammer and sticking characters from the OT into a conflict they obviously can't lose because if they did, Lucas would get pissed and boot that shit out of the canon.
Yes, instead we got LOTF, and Jacen fans, Mara Jade fans, and many EU fans were pissed off at that stuff.
The difference is, the Mexican War which preceded the Civil War, as I said, was a small conflict that left Americans wanting more, especially as two sides in the US were already hating each other BEFORE the Mexican War started. Meanwhile, the SW galaxy went through three galaxy-spanning conflicts, which is like having three world wars happen in a single lifetime. At that point, any delusions of wars ending quickly would have been removed, due to people having experience from three massive, galaxy-spanning wars. They would be more than knowledgeable that the war wouldn't be as quick as they thought it would be, just as the generation of WW2 didn't have the same delusions the WW1 generation did about the war ending before the autumn leaves falling off the trees. Which is again, why I would have placed LOTF half a century after the Vong War, which would make it more believable since the people who WOULD know that wars don't end quickly would be either old or dead, and many young hotshots would have no experience to dispel their delusions that war can be settled swiftly and decisively.
The war between the GA and Corellia threatened to explode into a galaxy-wide conflict similar to the Clone Wars and GCW. In fact, they even called it the SECOND GALACTIC CIVIL WAR. Ergo, a generation that's had to suffer THREE TOTAL WARS would be very sour on that. At most, it would have been more likely that such battles between Coruscant and Corellia would be restrained to political talk and trade embargoes. Only decades later would it explode into total war, once the previous generations who lived through three total wars die off and the rhetoric of confrontation between Corellia and Coruscant grows hotter and more intense as younger, more nationalistic figureheads expand a political/economic conflict into an actual war.
The galaxy just went through three wars that tore it in half. The galactic populace is 100 quadrillion in Legends. So even if 1% of the populace died in the GCW and the Clone Wars, that would be like, one quadrillion people dead, which beats the figure of the Yuuzhan Vong War which was 365 trillion people dead. If the Clone Wars and the GCW did not kill as much as the Vong War did, that means that they killed less than 1/3 of 1% of the galactic populace. And need I remind you, the Clone Wars involved two halves of the galaxy waging war with each other, and in the GCW's case, the war turned into a bloodbath Empire descending into military anarchy as warlords waged war on each other and weakened the Empire severely) waging war.
And even if it was the case, don't you think a war that killed 365 trillion would have convinced everyone that they should calm the fuck down for at least a couple decades, if not half a century?
My main problem is PRECISELY LOTF's story. Why the fuck would the Corellians follow a known crook to wage war against Coruscant when for millennia, the two planets prospered as partners and allies? And of course, planets like Bothawui, Fondor, Bespin, and Adumar joining Corellia's Confederation along with the Hutts, Eriadu, and Commenor is NOT a local war. Again, this is a story that would have worked better if it was set decades after the Vong War, where you can have ambitious people take over these planets and wage war for selfish political goals that old Alliance war veterans would have never seen as justifications for war. That way, old loyalties like the Alliance cause would have died down, and THEN you can have planetary loyalty be a thing that motivates war again, just like it did back in the old Confederate days in the Clone Wars where planetary loyalists joined the Confederacy to strike back at the Republic after A THOUSAND YEARS OF PEACE.
Confederation
The Confederation was the galactic government that had arose in revolt against the Galactic Federation of Free Alliances from 40 ABY until at least 43 ABY. The Confederates portrayed themselves as freedom fighters while the Alliance, especially Jacen Solo, labeled them as terrorists. The rebel...
starwars.fandom.com
The EU quite literally had the heroes pull off galaxy-saving heroics all the time. That, and LOTF's story and its handling of characters like Jacen and Mara Jade reek of bad cape-shit stories where they start conflicts for the sake of shock value then clean it up nicely afterwards, with Corellia barely being punished by the victorious Alliance. Which is of course why many people switched to manga and why many EU fans think LOTF is akin to a bad hangover. ESPECIALLY Jacen Solo and Mara Jade fans who dropped off after LOTF.
In fact, in other EU works, Corellians are characterized as people willing to do their part for the galaxy. SWTOR, which does a lot of content on Corellia, has Corellians aiming to join one side or another. The political elite are willing to be pro-Imperials, while the cops, Jedi, and average soldiers on Corellia are staunchly loyal to Coruscant and the Republic. None of them want Corellia to go at it on their own or strike out as an independent faction. It is EXACTLY the characterization of Corellia in LOTF which I have a problem with. Especially considering the fact that many Alliance aces are Corellians. You'd think they'd be the first to keep in power a government they fought for. At this case, it would have been more appropriate if another outer or mid-rim planet was the staging area for the resistance against Coruscant and the Galactic Alliance, while the Corellians would provide Coruscant's government with top-of-the-line ships and pilots like they did for A THOUSAND GENERATIONS!
If the GFFA is the one that scares the shit out of the Coruscanti and the people, then Cal Omas would have been booted from office rather quickly and replaced by someone with a calm head like Pellaeon or Garm. And to think that GA soldiers are mostly Alliance vets-that would have gotten Cal Omas kicked out fast if his actions reminded them of the Empire Again, the story makes little sense, and it seems that it was just manufacturing conflict for the sake of "we have to have a war!" without thinking things through.
Corellia's love affair with Thrackan just annoys me. Again, in other SW works, when monsters like Palpatine kept getting re-elected, it's because A) he keeps the icky shit he does away from public eyes and B) even the good guys are fooled by him 95% of the time.
People complain about how it's not like the old space heroics of the past, because in those old space heroics, things actually made more sense. We understood why the good guys were good, the bad guys were bad, and even in grey conflicts like the Clone Wars, the Seps were fighting for Outer Rim worlds that were ignored by the Republic and Jedi for generations, while the Jedi and the Republic are fighting to maintain their 25,000-year-old Republic. Corellia and Coruscant having a brawl and involving other planets wouldn't make much sense, especially since A) traditionally, the two have been close allies, B) the galaxy just suffered through three total wars, and C) literally NOTHING will happen to Corellia if they don't declare war. Even when scumbags like Sidious and Tyranus inflamed war between the Separatists and the Republic, both sides had a justifiable reason: the Republic fears that the Separatists want to destroy them, which they do, and the Seps fear the Republic wants to drag them back into its domain, which it does.
You do realize that the galaxy at large didn't know about Anakin's relationship with Padme or that he had a begrudging relationship with Obi-Wan Kenobi? It wasn't as public as Jacen Solo going to the Dark Side and getting taken down by his family. Heck, people thought Anakin was a complete saint who got killed protecting younglings at the Jedi Council Chambers. I'm pretty sure a major bruhaha in the Solo clan that ended with one kid falling the Dark Side and the other coming after the former would be well-known, especially by the Sith, who would be the kind of people to taunt the Jedi about those things. "Haha, remember that one time when one of your brightest pupils turned evil and embarrassed you all in front of the galaxy? Was it Anakin? Or was it Jacen? We're losing count!" Darth Krayt might even taunt Cade Skywalker by saying that more than one Skywalker ended up falling to the Dark Side and how he should follow suit. And again, if Corellia rebelled against Coruscant over petty slights, then a tyrant taking over Coruscant should have caused the Corellians to flip the table and go rogue. Instead, when a real tyrant who revived the Empire took over Coruscant again, Corellia keeled over like Prime Minister Falcone did to the Sith in SWTOR. So much for a strongly independent people. There wasn't even a Corellian resistance against Krayt and the One Sith as they dominated the Empire and then the galaxy.
Maybe a more private story not involving planetary wars would have done better to flesh out the Solo family issues. Like say, the hunt for Abeloth. Imagine that shit going on while Jacen and Lumiya were still alive. Maybe Jacen could use his one-ness with the Force as a final trump card against Abeloth, while Lumiya does her part by poring over Sith tomes finding a weakness against the dark creature. Again, it just goes to show how better things are if we cut out LOTF entirely and went from the Vong to Abeloth and later, the Legacy Era.
- Joined
- Dec 17, 2019
I would have responded to every point brought up by @LORD IMPERATOR , but sadly, virtually nothing I said was quoted using the quote function....at all. Meaning that half of all stated points or more are flung together with zero context to what was initially said. I don't have the functioning nerve endings in my fingers or brain to siphon through everything to correct your quotations, much less copy-paste my original points to repeat things that still haven't been addressed, so I'm merely going to respond to new points or arguments that I feel obligated to address.
I don't expect I'll change your mind with any of this, which is why I'm bowing out afterwards, but frankly, I don't think anyone comes to the Star Wars Thread with years of personally-formed stances on the movies/EU to have their minds changed about anything...myself very much included.
Good thing I got what I wanted. No hard feelings, of course.
Popular opinion in the Star Wars fandom has never swayed me in the slightest, especially when they're consistently wrong. LOTF would just be another example of that.
So the comic comparison doesn't even remotely work. Events in trashy, headline-grabbing comic books are started and resolved immediately with time travel or resurrection or something. That didn't happen with the fates of characters like Jacen Solo or Mara Jade. What happened to them is permanent, and is addressed in the following series. Period.
You keep spinning this alternative, and you haven't once managed to make it sound appealing.
I didn't see any changes to their roles between NJO or LOTF, only that the stakes seemed far more personal for them in the latter, since their familial bonds with each other were for once becoming the casualty of the conflict around.
Those arguments were fucking stupid for NJO, and they're just as ill-founded and fucking moronic for LOTF as well. Same blithering idiocy, different story arc.
It's funny how all of your solutions have the characters functioning that way. As if that's even remotely in-character at all.
Again, as I keep reiterating, the characters even talk about the conflict in LOTF as if it will decide whether or not a total war happens, not it actually being one. I just finished a chapter where Wedge Antilles states the danger of this conflict blossoming into a full-scale war. Meaning, it isn't one.
No one is treating it as total war, except you.
I don't think the story posits that one side was more right than the other.
...except, with half of the participants being corporeal beings for which the "severing of family ties" means nothing, since they're already dead? You can do a lot of things with Force Ghosts--have them provide guidance, be ignored voices of reason for characters undergoing emotional trials like in the Legacy comics. You cannot have them be participants in long-running, soap opera-esque bouts of family drama without it being a literal parody.
I know you're desperate to make this "Decades Later" alternative scenario to justify your hatred of LOTF, but this isn't the way to go about it. Something like this would make the Disney Sequel Trilogy look like Citizen fucking Kane.
Even in the non-canon confines of the Force Unleashed DLC, that Force Ghost fight was all kinds of fucking retarded, and so were the writers who thought it was a good idea. You literally have the physical interaction that the ST enables Force Ghosts, now made worse by actual fucking fighting with characters on the mortal plane.
Don't take this the wrong way, but I'm thoroughly relieved that your "superior" version of LOTF didn't happen. It probably would've been the thing that would make me quit my first-timer's dive into the Expanded Universe, and abandon all things Star Wars like I've done with the Disney canon.
Your hypothetical scenario would see the same thing, but with fast-tracking to the lives of Jacen, Jaina and Ben 30 years after NJO. Unless you dedicated exhaustive exposition to the off-screen years of familial interactions with their parents and growth as Jedi that we haven't seen to justify where they are now...which would defeat the idea of the time-skip altogether.
This clearly isn't going anywhere, and you have far more investment in the proximity of time between wars than I do. It is evident that our sense of storytelling priorities are in infinitely different places---the idea that spacing out these wars is worth even most of what you've suggested as an alternative (skipping years of growth and experience for the protags, relegating all family drama to Force Ghost conversations, having literal Force Ghost Battles, etc) is proof that our ideal LOTF was never going to align with each other's narrative priorities. I'm not willing to make those concessions to make LOTF more acceptable by your standards...and thank God in heaven, neither were the EU authors.
Ultimately, as you said, whatever reservations you may have about LOTF can be blissfully ignored by self-imposed amnesia when reading the Legacy comics, while I can continue enjoying LOTF as a seamless chronological continuation of the post-Endor storyline.
Oh, and apologies for everyone who had to wade through this autistic word blizzard. But hey, at least we aren't arguing about Mandalorians.
I don't expect I'll change your mind with any of this, which is why I'm bowing out afterwards, but frankly, I don't think anyone comes to the Star Wars Thread with years of personally-formed stances on the movies/EU to have their minds changed about anything...myself very much included.
It's nice that you would've liked that. I would prefer that Jacen and Jaina get more than one story arc to really interact with their parents in a high-stakes conflict, and for Luke Skywalker to have actual family drama with his son.
Good thing I got what I wanted. No hard feelings, of course.
If you open the Legacy comics, there's also no mention of Luke Skywalker throwing down with an Eldritch God, or any of his transdimensional hijinks from Crucible. That doesn't magically mean that those things didn't happen, or have massive importance for the characters involved.
The Vong War happens 10 years after the final surrender of the Empire, and it doesn't feel messy.
I couldn't give less of a shit what "many fans of the EU" think considering most of what they bitch about is invalid or inapplicable to the story they're raving about. "Many fans" bitched about the Vong not being a good fit for Star Wars, or that the PT "demystified the Jedi" and "ruined the sanctity of the lightsaber" by having massive Jedi battles, or cling firmly to the belief that "the Jedi are pacifist and that Luke's actions on Crait are the most Jedi thing EVAR!!!1!"
Popular opinion in the Star Wars fandom has never swayed me in the slightest, especially when they're consistently wrong. LOTF would just be another example of that.
Except, everything isn't cleaned up in a couple of books like it never happened, because FOTJ comes immediately afterwards and has the galactic government and Luke Skywalker himself dealing with the aftermath of his nephew turning evil.
So the comic comparison doesn't even remotely work. Events in trashy, headline-grabbing comic books are started and resolved immediately with time travel or resurrection or something. That didn't happen with the fates of characters like Jacen Solo or Mara Jade. What happened to them is permanent, and is addressed in the following series. Period.
So that the new generation of characters can never have any further interactions or drama with their parents?
You keep spinning this alternative, and you haven't once managed to make it sound appealing.
Han, Luke and Leia being heroes of another time and clashing with the values of the younger generation has been a recurring theme since NJO. Their age and them being accustomed to the simple binary conflict of the Galactic Civil War is precisely why seeing them thrust in morally-grey conflicts like the Vong War or the Second Galactic Civil War is what makes the ensuing dilemmas compelling...at least, to me.
I didn't see any changes to their roles between NJO or LOTF, only that the stakes seemed far more personal for them in the latter, since their familial bonds with each other were for once becoming the casualty of the conflict around.
Death isn't the only ultimatum for stakes to be important. Han, Luke and Leia haven't been in danger of dying once throughout this trilogy, and yet I've been constantly invested in their strained relationship with their children.
Funnily enough, I went into LOTF knowing every major plot twist, and yet I'm still engrossed in the stakes simply because I'm so impressed with how the story handles them. I know perfectly well that Jacen won't survive...but that sure as hell hasn't stopped me from being more invested in his downfall than any other Sith character in the EU.
Yes, and their reasons for declaring his downfall as bullshit were absolutely retarded, as I've effectively illustrated several times before now. People made similar arguments for why Chewbacca's death was stupid, or why the Vong didn't suit the Star Wars universe. They made the same accusations, if not more, of NJO butchering the characters and storyline for shock value and padding out a conflict everyone wanted to move on from. They stopped reading the books in droves, and you can still find legions of salty EU readers who will declare that they stopped keeping up with the EU precisely at the advent of NJO.
Those arguments were fucking stupid for NJO, and they're just as ill-founded and fucking moronic for LOTF as well. Same blithering idiocy, different story arc.
That is abject fanfiction of the highest order. I literally don't know where you get this impression from. Jacen isn't some impulsive teenager who has years of maturity to attain...this is a man in his 30's, who has spent the last ten years stoking the flames of his own hubris, becoming immensely powerful in the Force, and continuously ousting Luke's ideas as inferior to his own. And this is after Dark Nest, by the way. He wasn't going to grow out of this---he was going to get worse. He's well past the age to be influenced by reason or guidance, especially when his worldview has been amplified by constant victories in both NJO and LOTF.
Which is why there's a full ten year gap between the Vong War and the conflict with Corellia. Seems like plenty of time for any broiling political dissent to froth and boil--especially when you have active shadow players like Lumiya hurrying the war into fruition.
Nobody was talking about banning wars after NJO, either, just ones on the scale of the Vong War. This is literally what Dark Nest is about...and that conflict was fought for far stupider reasons than anything put into motion during LOTF.
So unrealistic that it happened two times before, and with Centerpoint Station involved two times.
He's never referenced or addressed again in any real capacity after NJO, which doesn't shock me in the least, since I doubt he's still active. Garm was old during the Thrawn Trilogy, and that was thirty years before LOTF.
And yet the events of Dark Nest happen, before LOTF, and under the vigilant watch of both the GFFA and the Chiss Ascendancy, threatening to launch the galaxy into a chaotic state of warfare yet again. And yet, there's no talk of glassing the Killik Homeworld...probably because that would be something in the vein of the Empire, the exact entity everyone would be dead set against emulating.
It's funny how all of your solutions have the characters functioning that way. As if that's even remotely in-character at all.
Then by your own criteria, the conflict in LOTF is a "summer war" in the vein of the Swarm War seen in Dark Nest, because it lasts the same duration and the same number of planets and factions involved.
Again, as I keep reiterating, the characters even talk about the conflict in LOTF as if it will decide whether or not a total war happens, not it actually being one. I just finished a chapter where Wedge Antilles states the danger of this conflict blossoming into a full-scale war. Meaning, it isn't one.
No one is treating it as total war, except you.
Do more research on the American Civil War, then. Personal principle was breaking families and friendships left and right. We have Civil War correspondance compiled in books like For Cause And Comrades affirming as such.
Why is that sense of wonder materializing just now, and not during the Corellian Trilogy or NJO? Because he had legions of people following him both times there, as well.
I have yet to encounter any substantial evidence that the cause of either side is "more wrong." The writers seem to consistently portray the Corellians and Coruscanti as equally deluded and foolish. They make about as many wrong moves as each other. I just finished a book where the Corellians are attempting to assassinate a mother and her child to gain an ally in the war, while Jacen Solo almost murders his own parents to stop them.
I don't think the story posits that one side was more right than the other.
I'm just going to pretend that you didn't just suggest the Solo Children engaging in countless books' worth of familial drama with their Force Ghost parents. You're telling me that you could have the numerous, emotionally-wracking and gut-wrenching conversations where parents and children are severing ties with one another and threatening to never speak to each other again as seen in LOTF....
...except, with half of the participants being corporeal beings for which the "severing of family ties" means nothing, since they're already dead? You can do a lot of things with Force Ghosts--have them provide guidance, be ignored voices of reason for characters undergoing emotional trials like in the Legacy comics. You cannot have them be participants in long-running, soap opera-esque bouts of family drama without it being a literal parody.
I know you're desperate to make this "Decades Later" alternative scenario to justify your hatred of LOTF, but this isn't the way to go about it. Something like this would make the Disney Sequel Trilogy look like Citizen fucking Kane.
And that's where I'm going to throw up my hands and officially declare that we are never going to agree on anything we discuss.
Even in the non-canon confines of the Force Unleashed DLC, that Force Ghost fight was all kinds of fucking retarded, and so were the writers who thought it was a good idea. You literally have the physical interaction that the ST enables Force Ghosts, now made worse by actual fucking fighting with characters on the mortal plane.
Don't take this the wrong way, but I'm thoroughly relieved that your "superior" version of LOTF didn't happen. It probably would've been the thing that would make me quit my first-timer's dive into the Expanded Universe, and abandon all things Star Wars like I've done with the Disney canon.
Probably because the Legacy comics featured virtually no returning characters from previous story arcs. When you have established protagonists like Luke Skywalker, subject him to years of off-screen development, relegate that development to exposition, and still expect your audience to care, you get shit like TLJ.
Your hypothetical scenario would see the same thing, but with fast-tracking to the lives of Jacen, Jaina and Ben 30 years after NJO. Unless you dedicated exhaustive exposition to the off-screen years of familial interactions with their parents and growth as Jedi that we haven't seen to justify where they are now...which would defeat the idea of the time-skip altogether.
Your entire master plan would also have to completely retcon or ignore Dark Nest, considering his first steps towards the Dark Side materialized in that series, half a decade before LOTF.
And plenty of Star Wars fans wanted the Prequels booted into a black hole. They and the people butt-hurt over LOTF can occupy the same stratosphere of being wrong, together.
This clearly isn't going anywhere, and you have far more investment in the proximity of time between wars than I do. It is evident that our sense of storytelling priorities are in infinitely different places---the idea that spacing out these wars is worth even most of what you've suggested as an alternative (skipping years of growth and experience for the protags, relegating all family drama to Force Ghost conversations, having literal Force Ghost Battles, etc) is proof that our ideal LOTF was never going to align with each other's narrative priorities. I'm not willing to make those concessions to make LOTF more acceptable by your standards...and thank God in heaven, neither were the EU authors.
Ultimately, as you said, whatever reservations you may have about LOTF can be blissfully ignored by self-imposed amnesia when reading the Legacy comics, while I can continue enjoying LOTF as a seamless chronological continuation of the post-Endor storyline.
Oh, and apologies for everyone who had to wade through this autistic word blizzard. But hey, at least we aren't arguing about Mandalorians.
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- Jun 12, 2020