Star Wars Griefing Thread (SPOILERS) - Safety off

[Cyril Sneer]

We now return you to your regularly scheduled autistic slap-fight, already in progress.

Spoiler: Mamas, don't let your babies grow up to be gameboys

I suppose that's the official explanation for the character shift. Jango got older, and getting his people killed at Galidraan made him more of a loner and more tactical as opposed to a hothead that makes Leeroy Jenkins look like Sun Tzu.

You should actually read some Sun Tzu sometime. You might end up with a less one-dimensional view of war.

Blackman's work made Vader and Jango look rather idiotic.

Someday, when/if you actually grow up, you'll realize that flawed, mistake-prone characters are more interesting and more realistic.

Vader, as he was characterized in the films and the many EU works about him, would surely have made a move on Sidious with Starkiller, especially since Starkiller is the kind of guy who can pull down Star Destroyers.

Vader, as he was characterized in the films is apparently resigned to letting Luke kill him rather than trying to usurp his master's place. As for Galen Marek, jerking around Star Destroyers in gameplay has to be overlooked because of how it creates narrative problems for G-canon.

-no Mandalorian with more than two brain cells to rub would engage a detachment of Jedi in an open battlefield. Guerilla hit and runs and ambushes perhaps, or maybe luring them to a well-designed sniping ground where the Mandalorians have the high ground and the Jedi can be attacked from 360 degrees, but not in an open field where the Jedi have the advantage.

The Battle of Galidraan was not fought on "an open battlefield," but rather the small, apparently enclosed hollow where the Mandalorians were encamped. Additionally, the opposite criticism applies: only colossal fools would so recklessly engage a force of the galaxy's most infamous professional soldiers head-on, as the stated Republic casualties for the battle attest.

Vader wanted to be Emperor since day 1 of the Empire. He even described the Empire as his to Obi-Wan.

In an attempt to rationalize all of the terrible things that he's done in service to that Empire over the past day or so. Anakin is basically just ranting at that point, no longer in his right mind, as, you know, his choking out his pregnant wife (whom he undertook all of these atrocities specifically to save) on spurious grounds a few minutes earlier helpfully indicates.

Also, Vader as a Sith believed in the Sith philosophy, so much so that he wanted to spread it to his son and he wanted every Force-sensitive who served him to embrace the Dark Side. When the Jensaarai leader's son went to help Vader hunt down the Jedi, Vader sensed the Light Side in the boy and struck him down where he stood.

And yet he didn't strike down Luke. Unlike Palpatine with Anakin, he never says a word about Jedi-vs-Sith. Rather, it's all father-and-son appeals.

Jango's unit had 100% casualties, which is more than Dooku's 50%. That means the latter wrecked the former, not the other way around. Dooku still had a unit, when Jango did not.

Jango's unit had 100% fatalities, which is pretty unusual by any standards, for every single soldier in a given formation to fight to the death. Dooku's unit also suffered 50% fatalities, not 50% casualties. To put this in context, military formations are generally considered "combat ineffective" when they sustain 30% casualties, and will then be taken behind the lines and replenished with fresh troops if possible. For comparison, Pickett's Charge at the Battle of Gettysburg resulted in 50% of the Confederate force becoming casualties, and that's considered a textbook example of a military disaster of the most infamous sort. Add to this the fact that the number of those killed in action tends to be outweighed by those wounded in action by a factor of around 1:3 or 1:4, and you can see why Galidraan was considered an infamous debacle and salient example of why Jedi should not be deployed for military or paramilitary purposes. It's likely that the half dozen or so Jedi surrounding Jango at the end of the battle were the only ones who could actually still stand under their own power.

In short, the Jedi force got wrecked on an absolutely historical level, suffering the kind of Pyrrhic victory that would be talked about at military academies for generations afterward.

Windu kept holding off droid fire better compared to the other Jedi. Also, Jango was rather tactical with his battle with Obi-Wan, nowhere near as hot-headed as attacking Dooku and his Jedi head-first. At least he picked on ONE Jedi in the middle of a chaotic battlefield while all the other Jedi were distracted by droids.

This is in reference to what, exactly?

My view of Lucas' universe concerning the movies is accurate.

Actually, you foster a distinct impression of being unfamiliar with the movies, considering how you keep getting various plot details wrong (like your claim that it was the Jedi, not Padme, who masterminded the capture of Nute Gunray) and exalt the video games above everything.

Lucas never let the Mandos win a fair fight against Jedi.

Jango won 2 out of 3, actually.

If people's perceptions of the Mandos centered only on Lucas' movies, they'd get nothing but failure and greed as a picture of the proud warrior race.

Wrong as usual. The very first depiction of Mandalorians back in the 80s, when there was only Lucas's movies (and the Holiday Special) to go on, presented a picture of honor, courage and heroism.

Yes, and power levels are the author's way of saying who will win or lose most of the time.

Only if the author's name is Akira Toriyama.

That's because Kenobi won by a fluke like he did with Maul.

To paraphrase an old saying, it's better to be flukey than good.

Anakin wasn't fully trained by the Jedi at all. "I know there are things about the Force they're not telling me!" he says. Does that sound like "fully trained" to you?

He's referring to forbidden, Dark Side knowledge, not standard Jedi training.

Compared to Anakin, Kenobi and Yoda were portrayed to be more sympathetic since they cared about democracy, the Republic, and all that jazz, whereas Anakin couldn't care less about democracy.

That's the problem. Yoda and Obi-Wan are very good at caring about abstract concepts. People, not so much.

Lucas even made Anakin less sympathetic by turning him into a child-killing psychopath, when mind-tricking the Jedi younglings to sleep and delivering them to Palpatine to be made into Dark-Side servants would have done enough to make Anakin look evil without going overboard.

No, the simpler route is better.

Jedi dogma holds all life sacred. Even Bastila Shan in KOTOR states that "Jedi hold all life sacred, even that of a Sith Lord." Luke believed in that, and used that ideology to justify saving Vader because there's still good in him.

I'm really starting to worry that your understanding of the SW universe has been almost entirely derived from vidya gaymes. Luke cites no Jedi ideology when arguing with his mentors. His stated reason is literally "I can't kill my own father." He defies Yoda and Obi-Wan purely on the basis of that emotional, familial attachment.

Lucas never portrayed greyness as positive...

I'm not even sure what this is supposed to be in response to, since you're not considerate enough to use quote tags to reference what you're trying to dispute.

Everyone was blind to Sidious' machinations. Even other Sith, Senators, and everyone. He was just portrayed to be a 4-D Chess Player.

?

At most, you have ONE quote, which contradicts nothing of what I said here, just that the Jedi were being corrupted by the war, which was inevitable considering that if they didn't fight, robber barons that were Sith pawns would utterly crush the Republic and hold the galaxy as their playground.

Consider: We have a direct quote from Lucas explicitly stating that that the Jedi were corrupting themselves by allowing themselves to become soldiers. We NO quotes from Lucas stating that it was nonetheless somehow inevitable or necessary because "robber barons."

And again, Lucas' portrayal of the Jedi as heroes stands in stark contrast of his portrayal of the Mandos as greedy, amoral scum.

To hear Dave Filoni talk, Lucas has never actually portrayed Mandos on-screen:

"...to George, the Mandalorians - above all, dating back to Empire Strikes Back - are super commandos. They're a race of people that were a military....So, the idea that Jango Fett is not a Mandalorian - that's something that comes directly from George...when we fist saw Jango in Attack of the Clones...we assumed, "Oh, he must be a Mandalorian. There he is in Mandalorian armor." So, there's kind of this early assumption that Jango must be a Mandalorian. That was interesting to see. But, that was never stated in the film. It's never stated that he's Mandalorian. He's always just referred to as a bounty hunter."

Take it with a grain of salt, of course. It is Filoni, after all.

...every enemy the Jedi have in the films is evil, one way or another

Every enemy that the Jedi have in the films (with the exception of the Sith) is redeemed, one way or another. The CIS becomes the early basis of the Rebel Alliance, the Empire becomes becomes a benevolent authoritarian state, and the Mandalorians become allies of the Rebellion/New Republic/Galactic Alliance.

Lucas mouthing off Jedi philosophy as if it was his own personal philosophy... I'm pretty sure he's not gonna be that supportive of some mercenary cult who does everything for pay, for wealth and quick pleasure...the heroes he wants are the ones who let go of their earthly desires and feel joy from helping others, letting themselves and their selfishness go. Who does that sound like?

It doesn't sound anything like Lucas, who made himself obscenely wealthy by successfully jewing 20th Century Fox out of the merchandising rights to the Star Wars brand and then for decades exploited that license in ways that had never been dreamed of before.

Darth Vader and other Sith figures disagree.

Vader is in something of a class by himself, as the alleged main character of the SW saga (as Lucas would begin claiming after the Prequels came out). According to jedibusiness.com, Vader (as distinct from Anakin) presently has about 105 action figures, but Boba Fett has just under 50, which is more than any Sith character not named "Vader" (all the Mandalorian figures combined total up to about 100, however). Furthermore, Boba Fett and Mandalorian figures in general tend to be chronically difficult to find, even though, for example, Hasbro has released the exact same Boba Fett tooling in the 6" "Black Series" line six times now, despite it being quite outdated at this point, having been first released back in 2013 and since surpassed in terms of sculpted detail and articulation by more recent figures. There's a rather funny bit in this video where toy YouTuber "Nerdzoic" rattles off his list of the top ten most overrated Black Series 6" figures, and then notes that one of the figures that didn't make his list was Boba Fett, despite large numbers of collectors writing in and "hating on the fact that he's been released a million times and they still can't find him."

Same with the Jedi merch that flew off the shelves during the Clone Wars era.

You mean the Clone merch. Jedi toys were distinctly outnumbered.

is nowhere near as iconic as Vader and Luke ever were.

Seems like the market disagrees with you, gameboy.

We got only ONE GAME with a Fett as a main character...

We would have had another if 1313 hadn't been canceled. Still, as ever, vidya is misleading.

Also, Ahsoka merch flew real fast whenever I saw them. People couldn't gobble up enough merch about that orange Jedi waifu of Filoni's.

No wonder you're so bent out of shape, living amongst so many pedophiles.

Down to the point where she had TWO SHOWS whereas the Mandos only have one. Now that's what I call "Market Value."

Actually, the Mandos have featured in three shows thus far (Clone Wars, Rebels and The Mandalorian).

It's likely, in fact, that if Star Wars survives the current unpleasantness, it will actually be more Mandalorian-centric in the future, since the SW fans of tomorrow are presently having their perception of the GFFA shaped by the heroics of Sabine Wren and Din Djaren.

Name me ONE character in the films who objected to the use of clones because it was slavery.

That's the point, though: We know from TPM that slavery is ostensibly illegal in the Republic, but by AOTC, the Republic has declined to the point where they're willing to accept the use of a slave army without much deliberation, and the only Jedi who seems to give a damn about the Clones as people rather than useful tools is Anakin Skywalker, who is himself a former slave...

If Mace killed Sidious and his friends in the Senate outed the man as a Sith Lord, Sidious would be in no place to issue Order 66 because he'd be DEAD.

Because acting as unilateral judge, jury and executioner over the duly-elected head of the galactic government isn't going to cause any problems with the Jedi Order's "enemies in the Senate" at all...

But Trebor came there to kill Dooku, not Jango.

But ended up fighting (and being killed by) Jango. Dooku doesn't even draw his weapon throughout the whole encounter, or in fact even move, other than to turn slightly to face his would-be assailant.

But when Mace came for Jango, it wasn't even a fight.

As Jango was heavily concussed.

Even with Jango's fight with Kenobi, Kenobi had Slave 1 to contend with as well, and for a man fighting a super soldier and a starship at the same time, he did rather well, securing a respectable draw and getting the chance to follow Jango to his master.

Not really. I'll happily agree that the fight was "respectable" but it wasn't really a draw (since Obi-Wan was unable to prevent Jango from leaving Kamino), and Slave I wasn't really a factor (since it lent no advantage to Jango during the encounter).

Lucas and Jackson both agree that Windu is still alive, out there somewhere.

Lucas also agrees that Boba Fett escaped the Sarlacc and is still alive, out there somewhere.

...the idea that Boba can kill Mace was something Lucas threw away without a second thought.

You are achieving Supershadow levels of unsubstantiated "George told me this."

Jango was still in battle condition after getting run over by a rhino since his armor protected him.

Armor will not protect you from a concussion.

How can a man who can survive the Emperor be killed by a guy who can't even take out a blind man?

He wasn't trying to take out the blind man.

No, you're the one who doesn't understand context.

LOL

Your idea of "context" is trying to mangle canon to reflect your vidya power fantasies.

At most, Boba was preparing to aim at Luke, but what's to say Luke wouldn't deflect it like any other shot aimed at him?

Ah, but Luke doesn't deflect everything aimed at him in the Sail Barge battle. First he gets tagged in the hand by some nameless henchman of Jabba's, and then Boba gets the drop on him with his whipcord.

And later on in Dark Empire, Fett chickens out against two Dark Jedi who aren't even worthy of Luke's attention when they attempt to choke him and make him work for free.

Way to miss the point, laser-brain.

Yeah, that's right: even in a story where Force-storms are getting thrown across the Galaxy, the narrator still goes out of his way to helpfully reiterate the eternal truth of ke nu'jurkadir sha mando'ade: do not fuck with Mandalorians.

Showing familial affection doesn't always mean sympathy.

Antagonists who are awarded sympathetic traits in G-Canon are in vanishing short supply. They're a very select group that comprises Darth Vader, Jango and Boba Fett, and that's pretty much it.

Even the Imperials describe bounty hunters as "scum" because they'd do anything for money, which means they have greed in their hearts.

Just a little while ago, you were getting all worked up about how Imperial military officers hate anyone who isn't a proper human from the Core Worlds, and now you're citing the same people as some sort of moral authority.

Last I checked, greed isn't a neutral element, it's one of the Seven Deadly Sins.

I don't think you really want to run down that rabbit hole...

As I said before, Demagol was one of Mandalore's close aides, which means he'd have access to elite soldiers.

Rohlan mentions that all Crusaders are under standing orders to capture Jedi, and even if your hypothetical elite cadre of Jedi-Hunters existed, they could hardly be everywhere at once (besides, Demagol was intensely disliked by many Mandalorians, including Mandalore's right-hand guy, Cassus, so we could say it would be just as likely for them to "unfortunately" find it necessary to kill potential Jedi lab-rats rather than capture them...)

Also, name me one person in Demagol's prison who was a Jedi Master.

Name me all of the people in Demagol's prison.

Rohlan also is a deserter who hasn't had contact with Mandalore once the Jedi participation in the Mandalorian Wars began to heat up.

That doesn't seem to be the case. The text of the comic suggests that the timeline in question is much shorter.

At most, he would only be right in the early stages because Demagol wanted test subjects, but once the Jedi entered in full, the tide of the war turned against the Mandalorians horribly, as Canderous himself attests.

PPOR.

Canderous is a more reliable source of info, what with him being a high-ranking Mando who owned his own sub-section of Clan Ordo after winning a battle against the Althiri.

Canderous is something of an unreliable narrator, thanks to the narrative inconsistencies between KOTOR and KOTOR II.

Not necessarily. Zayne gets his candy ass kicked a lot in the comics. And even he still trounces Mandos like it's nothing.

Zayne doesn't "trounce" anyone, to the best of my recollection. He's a very mediocre fighter who relies on quick wits and seemingly endless luck to stay alive.

No, that is in the story for the Old Republic. The Hunter came from OUTSIDE the Mandalorian ranks...

...and enters INTO the Mandalorian ranks.

...and he/she consistently takes out targets the Mandos in general are too weak to kill, like that beast in Dromund Kaas or Jedi Master Kellian Jarro, the Mandalorian Killer.

Standard vidya power fantasy.

The Hunter becoming a Mandalorian was more ceremonial than anything.

Mandalorians take ceremony very seriously.

They didn't report to any clan...

According to Wookieepedia, a Mandalorian Hunter reports to Mandalore's own Clan Lok.

...nor did they help the Mandalorians when the war officially kicked off. It's just nothing but sentimentality, and not being a Mando doesn't change things that much outside of one of the Grand Champions laughing about it because she wanted to see Mandalore squirm. Also, the Mandalorians didn't try to shelter the Hunter when they needed aid. It was the Sith who gave sanctuary to and employed the Hunter when the Jedi and the Republic tried to slander and destroy them.

According to BioWare, even the Bounty Hunter class's working for the "Empire" was intentionally written into the game to evoke Boba Fett, so we're really just circling back to Mandalorians again.

So? Anyone who's tough enough can also join the Republic Special Forces, Imperial Intelligence, organizations that...

...don't exist outside of the game.

Also, being more discriminating means the Jedi get the 1% of the 1%, the best of the best...

No, it simply means that they have an insanely small pool of potential candidates to draw from,

...the Jedi player characters were insanely powerful; one struck down a thousand-year-old Emperor, the other has their own Rift Alliance that practically makes them the good version of Count Dooku. At most, the Mandalorian version of the Hunter has a tiny bit of pull among the Mandos and some good PR from the Sith thanks to Darth Tormen.

Given that the role of the "Outlander" in the Knights of the Fallen Empire/Shattered Throne expansion can apparently be assumed by any of the original PCs, the game can therefore actually end with a Mandalorian character vanquishing the Sith Emperor.

Zym was never portrayed to be the strongest

You've yet to provide evidence of that. Precedent is that the Grand Master will be one of if not the most powerful and badass of all Jedi of his time (ex: Nomi, Yoda, Luke, Kol, etc, etc, ad-nauseum).

And yet Mandos get dropped by Jedi characters all the time.

And the Mando player will kill basically every Jedi he encounters. Again, it's all in the service of creating a power-fantasy for the player, not accurately reflecting the lore.

Even before Malachor V, the Jedi were repeatedly handing the Mandalorians their ass on a plate. And that five-to-one advantage is mitigated by the fact that Republic troops have subpar blasters and armor, and yet they still won.

Yeah, via the deployment of a Deus ex Machina superweapon that required the sacrifice of most of the Republic fleet to pull off. That doesn't reflect terribly well on Revan as a strategist or tactician.

V wasn't the Jedi's first victory against the Mandalorians, but just the culmination of them slapping the Mandos around like nerds in high school being slapped around by jocks.

More like nerds ganging up on a jock, given the aforementioned five-to-one numerical disparity (and the Republic forces' apparent lesser aptitude for physical combat).

Jango openly said that the Jedi "killed them all."

All of his troops that had been present.

He was also described as a "subject-less" Mandalore. So either a majority of the warrior-class died that day, or many deserted him after his idiotic maneuver. If he was still Mandalore of a healthy Mando populace, he could have gathered more troops to himself after breaking out of slavery, and he'd start the Bounty Hunter game commanding Mandalorian clans.

Movie-era Mandalorians clans are quite a bit more independent than in the TOR timeline. As I think I've mentioned previously, by the time of the Prequels, the Mandalore is basically a monarch-in-name only as far as everyone but the Protectors are concerned.

T-Canon only became separate from the rest of canon after the Disney buyout, which took place in 2012, during Season 4 of TCW.

T-Canon has explicitly been a separate level of canon since 2008.

People = Everyone

People =/= Everyone.

What numbers? All you need to do is ask around people who only watched the films.

People who only watched the films created the "Fandalorian" community in the first place.

Game mechanics aren't canon, but Force powers are. And again, so is all that lore from those works that are practically Jedi power fantasies.

I don't think that they are. As per Lucasfilm, G-Canon, the films, is the highest and truest level of canonicity in the SW universe, so anything that contradicts G-canon (like, say, older generations of Force-users being depicted as vastly more powerful than Luke, Anakin and Yoda) is inherently problematic from a lore POV.

I like Canderous because A) he's not a sore loser about losing to Jedi, and B) he can kill Sith for a living. That's ten times better than Traviss' Mandos who fantasize about being better than the Jedi, but can't prove it in the battlefield.

You like Canderous because he simps to Force-users, which is the only state of existence that you seem to deem acceptable for muggles in the GFFA. Otherwise, you want to humiliate and kill them.

I was talking about the legions of Mandalorians who fought before Boba Fett. Be they the True Mandalorians or the Neo-Crusaders who had access to Beskar.

Did they?

Probably because just like in real life, there is no such thing as an invincible armor. All the enemy has to do is hit you harder and your armor breaks. Knights learned that the hard way when crossbowmen poked holes in plate armor.

Not a very apt example. Crossbow bolts are, if memory serves, more of an annoyance than a threat to late-medieval plate armor (in fact, in a real battle, the wearer is likely to die of blunt force trauma long before his armor is actually compromised by human muscle-power).

-resistant doesn't mean "invincible to lightsabers." It just means the Jedi has to swing harder.

Swinging harder would have minimal if any effect, since the blade of a lightsaber has no appreciable mass...

Mandalorians regularly made armor out of beskar, but still died to lightsaber and blaster bolts.

Where?

They just had more resistance to said attacks, but they weren't the equivalent of Super Mario with an invincibility star.

Good grief, kid. Unplug from your console and read a book or something.

The depiction of the CIS leaders is not irrelevant at all. It depicted them as objectively evil, and no force for justice would ignore them as a threat.

THERE ARE HEROES ON BOTH SIDES

-George Lucas, Revenge of the Sith

My quote...

You didn't quote.

1000 years of war between Sith Lords killing each other for galactic control didn't kill trillions? I'm sure they did more damage than the Vong since they had 1000 years to kill each other and they plunged the galaxy into a Dark Age.

Which resulted in a thousand years of peace and stability for the Republic. The scars of the Yuuzhan Vong invasion proved to be rather more lingering.

The Legacy Era comics showed that the Mandos got their asses kicked by the Fel Empire.

They do better than the Legacy Jedi, actually. The major engagement between the Mandalorians and the Empire is known as the Battle of Botajef, and the Mandos were able to withdraw in good order despite being outnumbered and facing Imperial armored support, whereas the major engagement between the Empire and the Jedi is known as the Massacre at Ossus.

 

[Godzilla@1989]

So Kevin Meyers just quit TIK TOK after he bailed Disney+. Could he be returning to Disney+?

https://variety.com/2020/digital/news/tiktok-kevin-mayer-resigns-1234750556/

 

[Adamska]

So Kevin Meyers just quit TIK TOK after he bailed Disney+. Could he be returning to Disney+?

https://variety.com/2020/digital/news/tiktok-kevin-mayer-resigns-1234750556/

Kevin Meyers is just a rat that is desperately jumping between sinking ships. He jumped a wet fart of a service to go to what he thought was a hit, only to learn it's getting slammed shut as a service for being foreign spyware.

I can't wait for him to go to Gillette or Goodyear given his shittastic picks for career opportunities so far.

 

[LORD IMPERATOR]

I would have responded to every point brought up by @LORD IMPERATOR , but sadly, virtually nothing I said was quoted using the quote function....at all. Meaning that half of all stated points or more are flung together with zero context to what was initially said. I don't have the functioning nerve endings in my fingers or brain to siphon through everything to correct your quotations, much less copy-paste my original points to repeat things that still haven't been addressed, so I'm merely going to respond to new points or arguments that I feel obligated to address.

I don't expect I'll change your mind with any of this, which is why I'm bowing out afterwards, but frankly, I don't think anyone comes to the Star Wars Thread with years of personally-formed stances on the movies/EU to have their minds changed about anything...myself very much included.


It's nice that you would've liked that. I would prefer that Jacen and Jaina get more than one story arc to really interact with their parents in a high-stakes conflict, and for Luke Skywalker to have actual family drama with his son.

Good thing I got what I wanted. No hard feelings, of course.


If you open the Legacy comics, there's also no mention of Luke Skywalker throwing down with an Eldritch God, or any of his transdimensional hijinks from Crucible. That doesn't magically mean that those things didn't happen, or have massive importance for the characters involved.


The Vong War happens 10 years after the final surrender of the Empire, and it doesn't feel messy.


I couldn't give less of a shit what "many fans of the EU" think considering most of what they bitch about is invalid or inapplicable to the story they're raving about. "Many fans" bitched about the Vong not being a good fit for Star Wars, or that the PT "demystified the Jedi" and "ruined the sanctity of the lightsaber" by having massive Jedi battles, or cling firmly to the belief that "the Jedi are pacifist and that Luke's actions on Crait are the most Jedi thing EVAR!!!1!"

Popular opinion in the Star Wars fandom has never swayed me in the slightest, especially when they're consistently wrong. LOTF would just be another example of that.


Except, everything isn't cleaned up in a couple of books like it never happened, because FOTJ comes immediately afterwards and has the galactic government and Luke Skywalker himself dealing with the aftermath of his nephew turning evil.

So the comic comparison doesn't even remotely work. Events in trashy, headline-grabbing comic books are started and resolved immediately with time travel or resurrection or something. That didn't happen with the fates of characters like Jacen Solo or Mara Jade. What happened to them is permanent, and is addressed in the following series. Period.


So that the new generation of characters can never have any further interactions or drama with their parents?

You keep spinning this alternative, and you haven't once managed to make it sound appealing.


Han, Luke and Leia being heroes of another time and clashing with the values of the younger generation has been a recurring theme since NJO. Their age and them being accustomed to the simple binary conflict of the Galactic Civil War is precisely why seeing them thrust in morally-grey conflicts like the Vong War or the Second Galactic Civil War is what makes the ensuing dilemmas compelling...at least, to me.

I didn't see any changes to their roles between NJO or LOTF, only that the stakes seemed far more personal for them in the latter, since their familial bonds with each other were for once becoming the casualty of the conflict around.



Death isn't the only ultimatum for stakes to be important. Han, Luke and Leia haven't been in danger of dying once throughout this trilogy, and yet I've been constantly invested in their strained relationship with their children.


Funnily enough, I went into LOTF knowing every major plot twist, and yet I'm still engrossed in the stakes simply because I'm so impressed with how the story handles them. I know perfectly well that Jacen won't survive...but that sure as hell hasn't stopped me from being more invested in his downfall than any other Sith character in the EU.

Yes, and their reasons for declaring his downfall as bullshit were absolutely retarded, as I've effectively illustrated several times before now. People made similar arguments for why Chewbacca's death was stupid, or why the Vong didn't suit the Star Wars universe. They made the same accusations, if not more, of NJO butchering the characters and storyline for shock value and padding out a conflict everyone wanted to move on from. They stopped reading the books in droves, and you can still find legions of salty EU readers who will declare that they stopped keeping up with the EU precisely at the advent of NJO.

Those arguments were fucking stupid for NJO, and they're just as ill-founded and fucking moronic for LOTF as well. Same blithering idiocy, different story arc.


That is abject fanfiction of the highest order. I literally don't know where you get this impression from. Jacen isn't some impulsive teenager who has years of maturity to attain...this is a man in his 30's, who has spent the last ten years stoking the flames of his own hubris, becoming immensely powerful in the Force, and continuously ousting Luke's ideas as inferior to his own. And this is after Dark Nest, by the way. He wasn't going to grow out of this---he was going to get worse. He's well past the age to be influenced by reason or guidance, especially when his worldview has been amplified by constant victories in both NJO and LOTF.


Which is why there's a full ten year gap between the Vong War and the conflict with Corellia. Seems like plenty of time for any broiling political dissent to froth and boil--especially when you have active shadow players like Lumiya hurrying the war into fruition.


Nobody was talking about banning wars after NJO, either, just ones on the scale of the Vong War. This is literally what Dark Nest is about...and that conflict was fought for far stupider reasons than anything put into motion during LOTF.


So unrealistic that it happened two times before, and with Centerpoint Station involved two times.


He's never referenced or addressed again in any real capacity after NJO, which doesn't shock me in the least, since I doubt he's still active. Garm was old during the Thrawn Trilogy, and that was thirty years before LOTF.


And yet the events of Dark Nest happen, before LOTF, and under the vigilant watch of both the GFFA and the Chiss Ascendancy, threatening to launch the galaxy into a chaotic state of warfare yet again. And yet, there's no talk of glassing the Killik Homeworld...probably because that would be something in the vein of the Empire, the exact entity everyone would be dead set against emulating.

It's funny how all of your solutions have the characters functioning that way. As if that's even remotely in-character at all.


Then by your own criteria, the conflict in LOTF is a "summer war" in the vein of the Swarm War seen in Dark Nest, because it lasts the same duration and the same number of planets and factions involved.

Again, as I keep reiterating, the characters even talk about the conflict in LOTF as if it will decide whether or not a total war happens, not it actually being one. I just finished a chapter where Wedge Antilles states the danger of this conflict blossoming into a full-scale war. Meaning, it isn't one.

No one is treating it as total war, except you.


Do more research on the American Civil War, then. Personal principle was breaking families and friendships left and right. We have Civil War correspondance compiled in books like For Cause And Comrades affirming as such.


Why is that sense of wonder materializing just now, and not during the Corellian Trilogy or NJO? Because he had legions of people following him both times there, as well.


I have yet to encounter any substantial evidence that the cause of either side is "more wrong." The writers seem to consistently portray the Corellians and Coruscanti as equally deluded and foolish. They make about as many wrong moves as each other. I just finished a book where the Corellians are attempting to assassinate a mother and her child to gain an ally in the war, while Jacen Solo almost murders his own parents to stop them.

I don't think the story posits that one side was more right than the other.


I'm just going to pretend that you didn't just suggest the Solo Children engaging in countless books' worth of familial drama with their Force Ghost parents. You're telling me that you could have the numerous, emotionally-wracking and gut-wrenching conversations where parents and children are severing ties with one another and threatening to never speak to each other again as seen in LOTF....

...except, with half of the participants being corporeal beings for which the "severing of family ties" means nothing, since they're already dead? You can do a lot of things with Force Ghosts--have them provide guidance, be ignored voices of reason for characters undergoing emotional trials like in the Legacy comics. You cannot have them be participants in long-running, soap opera-esque bouts of family drama without it being a literal parody.

I know you're desperate to make this "Decades Later" alternative scenario to justify your hatred of LOTF, but this isn't the way to go about it. Something like this would make the Disney Sequel Trilogy look like Citizen fucking Kane.


And that's where I'm going to throw up my hands and officially declare that we are never going to agree on anything we discuss.

Even in the non-canon confines of the Force Unleashed DLC, that Force Ghost fight was all kinds of fucking retarded, and so were the writers who thought it was a good idea. You literally have the physical interaction that the ST enables Force Ghosts, now made worse by actual fucking fighting with characters on the mortal plane.

Don't take this the wrong way, but I'm thoroughly relieved that your "superior" version of LOTF didn't happen. It probably would've been the thing that would make me quit my first-timer's dive into the Expanded Universe, and abandon all things Star Wars like I've done with the Disney canon.


Probably because the Legacy comics featured virtually no returning characters from previous story arcs. When you have established protagonists like Luke Skywalker, subject him to years of off-screen development, relegate that development to exposition, and still expect your audience to care, you get shit like TLJ.

Your hypothetical scenario would see the same thing, but with fast-tracking to the lives of Jacen, Jaina and Ben 30 years after NJO. Unless you dedicated exhaustive exposition to the off-screen years of familial interactions with their parents and growth as Jedi that we haven't seen to justify where they are now...which would defeat the idea of the time-skip altogether.


Your entire master plan would also have to completely retcon or ignore Dark Nest, considering his first steps towards the Dark Side materialized in that series, half a decade before LOTF.


And plenty of Star Wars fans wanted the Prequels booted into a black hole. They and the people butt-hurt over LOTF can occupy the same stratosphere of being wrong, together.

This clearly isn't going anywhere, and you have far more investment in the proximity of time between wars than I do. It is evident that our sense of storytelling priorities are in infinitely different places---the idea that spacing out these wars is worth even most of what you've suggested as an alternative (skipping years of growth and experience for the protags, relegating all family drama to Force Ghost conversations, having literal Force Ghost Battles, etc) is proof that our ideal LOTF was never going to align with each other's narrative priorities. I'm not willing to make those concessions to make LOTF more acceptable by your standards...and thank God in heaven, neither were the EU authors.

Ultimately, as you said, whatever reservations you may have about LOTF can be blissfully ignored by self-imposed amnesia when reading the Legacy comics, while I can continue enjoying LOTF as a seamless chronological continuation of the post-Endor storyline.

Oh, and apologies for everyone who had to wade through this autistic word blizzard. But hey, at least we aren't arguing about Mandalorians.

Considering that this is where it ends, I'm just going to put my points in easy-to-understand summaries.

Spoiler: WHY I DON'T LIKE LOTF

As for comparing LOTF haters to Prequel haters, I really don't care. The difference between the fans who hate the Prequels and the fans who hate LOTF is that the fans who hate the Prequels wanted Star Wars to end after the Return of the Jedi. Meanwhile, the people who hated LOTF were book-lovers who followed the adventures of Jacen and Mara for books on end and were sad to see them killed off in such a pointless, stupid war that nobody gave two shits about. Many of these fans followed the Star Wars Expanded Universe for years, which is why when LOTF crushed their hopes and dreams, they pissed off and threw the books in the garbage bin, while others saw it as a bad attempt to copy 40K's "both sides are evil" cliche, especially when the Clone Wars did that trope so much better and with more subtlety.

The only thing we got with Jacen was a story arc that most of his fans saw as an artificial turn to the Dark Side. It's like what happened with Revan in SWTOR: people wanted to see what happened to him, and instead of building on previous characterization, the man turned into a gibbering loon who had to be put down like a dog. Which is why KOTOR fans see SWTOR as non-canon fan-fiction, and why Jacen Solo fans likewise see LOTF as non-canon. So what Bioware did to Revan had precedent. It wasn't the first time they took a nuanced character and made him into a mad dog that had to be put down. Sure, there was stuff like the Revan novel that predicted his fall, but it was no less contrived for Revan fans who wanted a satisfying end to his story. Most Revan fans I know throw both the book and Revan's part in SWTOR into the garbage can, and many SWTOR players see the way Revan was handled as one of the sore spots in the vanilla game's otherwise great storyline.

Whenever wars are followed with more wars, it's because A) those were summer wars and the small taste of war made people want more, or B) it was the Medieval era or sometime before the modern age and modern warfare with all its brutality hadn't yet manifested fully. Meanwhile, Star Wars has had three galaxy-spanning total wars that nearly decimated civilization as they knew it. It wasn't like the Mexican American war where one side took over another's lands and called it a day, nor was it like the Hundred-Years' War and the Wars of the Roses where it was small Medieval conflicts that went on and off for 100 years or more as if some kid was playing with the light switch. The Clone Wars, Galactic Civil War, and the Vong War were total wars, ie. wars that forced both sides to throw everything they've got at the enemy, wars that ended with nations on both sides devastated or exhausted. The Clone Wars forced two halves of the galaxy to fight with all their strength and devastated worlds from Saelucami to Corucsant. The GCW started off as small, localized battles between the Rebels and the Empire, but once the Emperor died on Endor, the Empire fell apart in a massive civil war where warlords vied for power and people were caught in the middle, all the while the Rebels/New Republic made a beeline for the galactic core, causing more bloodshed along the way. And the Vong War was a war of survival, with one side being desperate refugees seeking a home, and the other side fighting for its life to keep said home and drive said violent refugees out.

America itself became sick of war after Vietnam, and the Iraq and Afghan wars made the people even more sick to the stomach to the point where the incumbent president is campaigning on a promise to bring troops home. Just imagine how sick people would be of war if we fought three wars that were as big as World War 2 within ONE lifetime. ON OUR OWN SOIL, NO LESS. At that point, they'd be so sick of war that they'd make the draft-dodgers during the Vietnam War look positively enthusiastic about war.

Corellians supporting a crook to wage war against the GA less than 20 years after the Vong War ended makes no goddamn sense, when other avenues of attack like trade embargoes, power-politicking, or a simple war of words would have sufficed. Usually in Star Wars, the people who declare war have a very good reason for doing so. The Trade Federation declared war on Naboo because the Naboo sponsored a bill that choked their trade routes with taxation, AND an evil space wizard ORDERED the TF leaders to invade. (Whereas prior to that, the TF leaders were just okay with a simple protest blockade.) The CIS declared war on the Republic because of the Republic's corruption which has festered for centuries, and because they were afraid the Republic might force them back in through violence. The Republic waged war on the CIS because they saw that the CIS wanted to destroy them. The Empire waged war on the Rebels because the Rebels wanted to destroy the Empire, and the Rebels wanted to destroy the Empire because they could no longer stomach the Emperor's atrocities. The Vong waged war on the rest of the galaxy because A) they needed a new home and B) their religious beliefs conditioned them to hate nonliving, non-biological technology, which the rest of the galaxy used.

The fact that Corellia and Coruscant would pick a fight with each other and drag worlds into their brawl, and the fact that most people on both sides are old Alliance war dogs, makes the war totally unrealistic. Realistically, both sides' soldiers would have thrown Cal Omas and Thracken Sal-Solo into the Geonosis Arena, handed them some melee weapons, and told them to settle things while the Alliance war vets pass the popcorn and place more responsible figureheads in charge of both Corellia and the GA. The last thing that Alliance war vets who fought alongside each other in two massive, galaxy-spanning total wars against the Empire and against the Vong would do is wage war against each other for petty, nationalistic concerns like planet loyalty. The fact that many Corellian aces fought to put the Alliance into power in the first place would make them reluctant to join in a war against it, especially when the Corellian leader is about as likeable as a pile of shit. Especially since for centuries, Corellia provided Coruscant with top of the line ships and pilots for 25,000 years. Turning against Coruscant is like, breaking sacred tradition at that point, especially for petty-ass reasons. It would have been more understandable if Corellia turned on Coruscant during the Legacy Era and it became a hotbed for resistance against the One Sith/Empire. Then it would really make sense since these Sith overthrew the government that the Corellians helped to place in, and their spirit of independence really wouldn't mesh with an actual tyrant becoming Palpatine 2.0.

And of course, the fans' hatred for LOTF over how Jacen and Mara were handled mirrors how fans hate comic stories that shove their favorite characters "in the fridge" for the sake of drama or make them evil to pad out conflict. There's already a category of good characters going bad in comics that have been done poorly, or female characters getting killed off poorly, and both Jacen Solo and Mara Jade fans feel that LOTF really shafted them. Again, the story feels like bad comic book tales that come and go. We have LOTF, we have the books that come after it, and by the time of the Legacy Era, people barely mentioned this crap, even though it's the kind of crap that the One Sith WOULD have mentioned, like how they once made contact with Lumiya's Sith and saw them as fools, or how the Jedi are so sloppy they've allowed at least two Skywalkers to fall to the Dark Side. The latter would be something Darth Krayt would use to tempt Cade Skywalker, saying that at least two of his ancestors have fallen to the Dark Side. The idea that Corellia could drag worlds like Bespin, Bothawui, and Fondor into an alliance against the GA along with the Hutts and the Corporate Sector would make the One Sith wary of pissing off Corellia, since Corellia can start a war over perceived slights, so an actual tyrant taking over Coruscant would greatly trigger them. Instead, just like in SWTOR where the Corellian leadership keeled over for the Sith the moment they came within striking distance of the planet, Corellia keels over for Krayt's Sith the moment the guy replaced Fel and took over Coruscant. Which again, makes it so that the whole "Spirit of Independence" that was used as the excuse to make Corellia resistant to the GA be complete and absolute bullshit. They start a war over perceived slights, yet don't care when an actual tyrant takes over Coruscant? Yeah, pull my finger.

In the eyes of many EU fans, LOTF as a whole is fucking retarded. A senseless conflict, well-loved characters being turned evil or dead for the sake of drama, and to them, all the so called "important family moments" between the Solo kids and Luke just feels like Baby-Mama drama that you'd see in a modern reality show. Jacen and Mara fans swore off the series, while everyone else just moved on to the Legacy Era and acted as if it was the successor to the Vong plotline. I'm sorry, but that's the truth. LOTF joins the Revan portion of SWTOR and other works like the Glove of Darth Vader as "shit EU fans would rather forget" whenever they're defending the EU against Disney SW fans.

I'm sorry, but this is how things look on my end, and too many EU fans agree with me to make me change those views.

 

[Ghostse]

You don't seem to understand what "Hotglue" means

Urban Dictionary: Hot glue

A type of fetishistic act in which a man orgasms onto a figurine, such as of an anime or video game character. The result is the figurine appearing to be covered in "hot glue".

www.urbandictionary.com

I thought that was a reference to the figure being expensive and hand assembled but with shitty quality. I mean the fact he was going to jizz all over that figure was never a question, but you learn something horrifying every day.

 

[BipolarPon]

So Kevin Meyers just quit TIK TOK after he bailed Disney+. Could he be returning to Disney+?

https://variety.com/2020/digital/news/tiktok-kevin-mayer-resigns-1234750556/

I don't think that's likely, unless Disney+ is doing much better than Tik Tok.

 

[Cyril Sneer]

I would have responded to every point brought up by @LORD IMPERATOR , but sadly, virtually nothing I said was quoted using the quote function....at all. Meaning that half of all stated points or more are flung together with zero context to what was initially said.

It really exposes a certain basic discourtesy for the members that bother to engage him at length. @LORD IMPERATOR is certainly immature, but there's no way that he's so developmentally disabled as to be incapable of grasping how the quote tags work.

I don't expect I'll change your mind with any of this, which is why I'm bowing out afterwards, but frankly, I don't think anyone comes to the Star Wars Thread with years of personally-formed stances on the movies/EU to have their minds changed about anything...myself very much included.

Well, you did turn me around on LOTF, at least. The historical parallels that you've provided are intriguing, and I hope that you'll continue posting your commentaries on the books as you read them.

It's nice that you would've liked that. I would prefer that Jacen and Jaina get more than one story arc to really interact with their parents in a high-stakes conflict, and for Luke Skywalker to have actual family drama with his son.

Good thing I got what I wanted. No hard feelings, of course.

That is abject fanfiction of the highest order. I literally don't know where you get this impression from. Jacen isn't some impulsive teenager who has years of maturity to attain...this is a man in his 30's, who has spent the last ten years stoking the flames of his own hubris, becoming immensely powerful in the Force, and continuously ousting Luke's ideas as inferior to his own. And this is after Dark Nest, by the way. He wasn't going to grow out of this---he was going to get worse. He's well past the age to be influenced by reason or guidance, especially when his worldview has been amplified by constant victories in both NJO and LOTF.

To be fair, you're arguing with a (mental, at least) child who thinks that it would be entirely reasonable and plausible for Chancellor Palpatine to have the entire Jedi Order summarily executed for the crime of not taking command of the Grand Army of the Republic.

And that's where I'm going to throw up my hands and officially declare that we are never going to agree on anything we discuss.

Even in the non-canon confines of the Force Unleashed DLC, that Force Ghost fight was all kinds of fucking retarded, and so were the writers who thought it was a good idea. You literally have the physical interaction that the ST enables Force Ghosts, now made worse by actual fucking fighting with characters on the mortal plane.

But you're right, he'll never agree with that, because he's all about the vidya, whether it's actually reconcilable with the lore or (perhaps especially when) it isn't.

I'm sorry, but this is how things look on my end, and too many EU fans agree with me to make me change those views.

Ah yes, the argumentum ad populum fallacy...

 

[LORD IMPERATOR]

To be fair, you're arguing with a (mental, at least) child who thinks that it would be entirely reasonable and plausible for Chancellor Palpatine to have the entire Jedi Order summarily executed for the crime of not taking command of the Grand Army of the Republic.

But you're right, he'll never agree with that, because he's all about the vidya, whether it's actually reconcilable with the lore or (perhaps especially when) it isn't.

Ah yes, the argumentum ad populum fallacy...

View attachment 1552004

Says the guy who basically keeps pissing people off with his Mando-fanboyism.

The Chancellor practically executed the Jedi without evidence and without a fair trial in Episode III, when they were trusted by the Senate and the Republic to carry the war effort. All he gave was an accusation of their treason that wasn't validated by any body independent of his influence. I'm pretty sure that if he can kill them all on such flimsy grounds even as they have official recognition in the Republic as generals, he can execute them for not fighting the war against the Seps, especially considering that one of them leads the Separatists and refusing to lead the Republic's armies can be seen as an act of treason. After the Senate granted Palpatine emergency powers in Episode II, it was either "do as he says" or get fired. Violently. Not fighting the war at all would make it seem as if the Jedi were sympathetic to their old pal Dooku. The only power the Jedi had was to assign individual Jedi to battlefronts galaxy-wide, and the Chancellor chose not to contend with them on that topic, because it didn't bother him.

The video games and comics/novels that anti-Jedi fans deride as "Jedi power fantasies" are as much a part of the lore as the books are. After all, they're all part of C-canon. And the lore itself shows how the Mandalorians REPEATEDLY lost to the Jedi, so even if we took away all the video games, Mandalorian history is full of occasions where the Jedi handed them their ass on a plate. From Tales of the Jedi, to KOTOR's backstory, to SWTOR and Open Seasons, the Mandalorians have proven to be completely ineffective against Jedi in open battles, with only top specimens like Jango, Boba, and Canderous being capable of Jedi-killing. Even in the KOTOR comics where they captured some Padawans, Zayne Carrick manages to trounce them, and he's practically a joke when compared to a proper Jedi.

Also, I cited novels, comics, video games, and the films. My sources are anything but selective, whereas your sources are very selective, only taking in a few novels and comics as examples.

The "argumentum ad populum" isn't a fallacy when the public is right. Saying "argumentum ad populum fallacy" without actually proving examples just goes to show that you're salty over the fact that most fans disagree with you, but you don't have any proof that can dispel their arguments. By your standards, a Disney fan reacting to most SW fans being salty about the EU being shitcanned can pull the whole "argumentum ad populum fallacy" and say that they're all wrong and Disney SW is a bastion of great storytelling and consistent characterization, even though most fans know it's not.

 

[Cyril Sneer]

Says the guy who basically keeps pissing people off with his Mando-fanboyism.

I'm merely a scapegoat for mimetic desire.

The Chancellor practically executed the Jedi without evidence and without a fair trial in Episode III, when they were trusted by the Senate and the Republic to carry the war effort. All he gave was an accusation of their treason that wasn't validated by any body independent of his influence. I'm pretty sure that if he can do that, he can execute them for not fighting the war against the Seps...

Sure, you're sure, but you're also insane.

The video games and comics/novels that anti-Jedi fans deride as "Jedi power fantasies" are as much a part of the lore as the books are. After all, they're all part of C-canon.

Which must always and forever be subordinate to G-Canon.

And the lore itself shows how the Mandalorians REPEATEDLY lost to the Jedi, so even if we took away all the video games, Mandalorian history is full of occasions where the Jedi handed them their ass on a plate.

Pyrrhic victories are not something to crow about.

Also, I cited novels, comics, video games, and the films. My sources are anything but selective...

Your sources are the very definition of selective. You can't even cite a single page from Dark Empire without omitting crucial information that cripples the spin that you're trying to put on it, your preferred sources are video games designed with the intent of making the player feel like the Galaxy's prime badass (which, as I've demonstrated, works against you as well as it does for you) and your knowledge of G-canon is simply embarrassing if you're not actually lying your ass off to try and shore up your arguments.

The argument "ad populum" isn't a fallacy when the public is right.

And you haven't demonstrated that your alleged majority is right, hence the fallacy.

Saying "ad populum fallacy" without actually proving examples just goes to show that you're salty over the fact that most fans disagree with you, but you don't have any proof that can dispel their arguments.

The burden of proof is on you, actually. First to demonstrate that your assertion represents a majority opinion and then to demonstrate that it is factually correct.

 

[Creep3r]

Now we take you away from this slapfight for your scheduled news report...

https://www.mynews13.com/fl/orlando/attractions/2020/08/25/disney-world-informs-workers-of-extended-furloughs

Disney World Informs Workers of Extended Furloughs


Since reopening in July, Disney World’s theme parks have been operating with new health and safety measures, including capacity limits and reservation requirements.


With no timeline for when business will return to “normal,” Disney has begun notifying workers that their furloughs, which began in April, will likely last longer than originally anticipated.


“When we initially notified you of your furlough, we could not have anticipated that it could exceed six months,” Disney said in an email sent to cast members. “However, due to business circumstances that were not reasonably foreseeable at the time and given the unprecedented and ongoing nature of the pandemic and its impact on our businesses, we regret to inform you that we now reasonably expect your furlough could extend beyond six months from your initial furlough date.”


The notice of the furlough extension was also reportedly sent to workers at Disneyland Resort, which has yet to reopen its theme parks due to restrictions in California.


“We hope that our businesses will be back up and running and that your furlough will remain temporary, but the evolving and unpredictable nature of the pandemic creates uncertainty,” Disney said in the email.


Meanwhile, Disney World will be reducing operating hours at its parks in September. CEO Bob Chapek said earlier this month the resort has seen higher than expected cancellations due the pandemic.

Ah yes, nothing to worry about Mouseketeers. Everything's fine, just be aware that you'll go six months without compensation like good little jannies.

 

[Ghostse]

Now we take you away from this autistic slapfight for your scheduled news report...

https://www.mynews13.com/fl/orlando/attractions/2020/08/25/disney-world-informs-workers-of-extended-furloughs

Ah yes, nothing to worry about Mouseketeers. Everything's fine, just be aware that you'll go six months without compensation like good little jannies.

The only bad news about this, other than the "little people" the mouse is grinding under its boot, is that they are going to cuck and jive to China even harder now.

 

[Godzilla@1989]

Now we take you away from this autistic slapfight for your scheduled news report...

https://www.mynews13.com/fl/orlando/attractions/2020/08/25/disney-world-informs-workers-of-extended-furloughs

Ah yes, nothing to worry about Mouseketeers. Everything's fine, just be aware that you'll go six months without compensation like good little jannies.

I forgot if I asked this already or not but has WDW Pro mentioned the Apple merger rumors or a possible sale?

 

[LORD IMPERATOR]

We now return you to your regularly scheduled autistic slap-fight, already in progress.

Here we go again...........

Spoiler: MANDO MADNESS VII: HEIR TO THE MANDOS PART I

Sun Tzu stated that the best way to win a war is to win without firing a shot. Which would make Jango look even more like a tool, since Sun Tzu would tell him that, when faced with a team of Jedi barking threats, he should surrender and ask for a lawyer instead, since the Jedi always spare their captives and the Mandalorians can have a better chance beating the Jedi in court. Especially once they tell the judge that the same governor that accused them of killing dissidents to the Jedi, is the very same man who told them to kill those dissidents. Really, did you even read Sun Tzu at all?

Flawed characters are more interesting when done right. Blackman's handling of Vader and Fett made them look like abject morons. It's not like say, a character in Shakespeare where they have a vice or weakness that can take them down. Jango looks like a complete tool for not using the legal system to defend himself and his men from the accusations of the Jedi and the Galidraan governor, and Vader looks like a complete fool for not killing Sidious or using Starkiller as a distraction, especially when Sidious was fully-distracted with Starkiller as the Rebels were leaving. One lightsaber throw to the back as Palpatine and Galen were having a Force pissing-match, and BAM! Vader would become Emperor, and the two Sith who are stronger than him would be dead. Vader doesn't come off as a flawed, but good character in TFU, he comes off as an idiot.

The fact that Galen can pull down ISDs is something that's basically hammered into the canon. Like it or not, it's as canon as every book you adore from the EU. That, and Galen Marek wasn't even the first: Darth Nihilus did it before him in KOTOR 2, where he apparently wrenched the Ravager from the gravity well at Malachor V, so it's not even that unique in the first place. That, and Vader only tried to stop Luke because he wanted Luke to convert to the Dark Side. In Episode V, he even wanted Luke to join him, become Sith, and overthrow the Emperor so that they can "rule the galaxy as father and son." So no, Vader wanted Sidious dead, and he had plenty of opportunities in TFU, from working with Galen Marek for real to overthrow Sidious, to using Galen as a distraction so he can kill them both and seize the mantle of Sith Master and Emperor in one swift stroke.

Er, no. The Mandalorians were the ones who came off as colossal fools, as they suffered a 99% casualty rate. I'm pretty sure the side that walks away with a larger percentage of its men is the one that ended up the victors. Also, the Mandalorians are hardly the best warriors in the galaxy, as many other warrior-groups like the Sun Guard, the Echani, and the Trandoshans are just as adept at warfare as the Mandalorians, with the Sun Guard being the core of the Imperial Royal Guard under the Empire, the Echani were masters of martial arts whose techniques were mastered by said Imperial Royal Guard, and the Trandoshans have caused more than their fair share of headaches for Republic forces like Delta Squad in Republic Commando. The Mandalorians are one of many: a warrior-clan that's good against local militia and armored targets, but far from the best in the galaxy, considering that other soldiers like Imperial Intelligence, Hunter-killer droids, and Republic SpecForce operatives have killed their fair share of lightsaber-wielding enemies just as much as the best of the Mandos had.

Anakin made the same offer to Padme that he did to Luke. He wanted Padme to side with him as he overthrows the Chancellor and takes over the Empire, and he wanted Luke on his side as he uses Luke's powers to destroy the Emperor so they can "rule the galaxy as father and son." And of course, again, he called the Empire HIS. Whether or not he choked his wife is irrelevant-as a Sith, he saw no higher authority than himself.

No shit, Vader doesn't strike down Luke. Vader wanted to RECRUIT LUKE TO THE DARK SIDE so he can use the boy's power to destroy the Emperor, so they can "rule the galaxy as father and son." Again, I have to repeat that quote, because apparently, you didn't catch that part when watching the film.

Again, the side that lost practically all of its soldiers is the side that is considered the loser. Pickett's Charge was considered a disaster for Southern forces at the time because A) they didn't accomplish their goal and B) they lost most of the soldiers in that charge. The only side that didn't consider it a disaster was the North. Also, not only did the GAR deploy Jedi on military affairs, but so did the New Republic, and that shit worked out for them just fine, just as it did FOR THE PAST 1000 GENERATIONS WHEN THE JEDI WERE PROTECTING THE REPUBLIC. In fact, it was more of a loss for the Mandalorians, since the Jedi got over those losses as if it was nothing, yet the Mandalorian forces were practically annihilated.

Galidraan goes down in the books as another example of Mandos losing to the Jedi, just as they did in the Mandalorian Wars and the SWTOR era when Jedi like Kellian Jarro and Corin Tok were famous for killing Mandalorians, to the point where the former became known as the Mandalorian killer, and the latter became known as Verda'Jedii.

It was in reference to how Jango was a better fighter in EPII than in Open Seasons. Jango couldn't figure out for shit that fighting the Jedi face-to-face was a bad idea in the latter. In the former, not only does he maintain distance and use explosives, but he also had starfighter backup against Kenobi. It didn't work, but hey, points for trying, since it led to a draw.

The Jedi worked with Padme to come up with a plan to take control of the palace. Padme led the attack, but the Jedi were with her both in the planning stage and in the commando raid until Darth Maul showed up. And of course, you're the guy who kept insisting that Vader had no designs to overthrow Sidious and claim the Empire as his, when in actual fact, Vader tried to get Padme AND Luke in on the plan to overthrow Sidious. He told Padme that he can overthrow Sidious for her, so that together, they can rule the galaxy and "make things the way we want them to be." He told his son Luke that he (Luke) has the power to destroy the Emperor, and that they can "rule the galaxy as father and son!" That's a total of TWO attempts by Vader to lure people into joining him to overthrow Palpatine.

Jango didn't win two out of three. He had a draw with Kenobi, he took Trebor by surprise, and got beheaded by Windu. The first two weren't fair fights-Jango had air support in the form of Slave 1 when fighting Kenobi but still failed to kill the Jedi. He fired at Trebor as the latter was trying to go for Count Dooku. The only fair fight he had was face-to-face with Windu, and he got decapitated because of it.

Lucas' movies only had Boba Fett as the lone Mando, and there was no courage, honor, or heroism there. In both the OT and the Holiday Special, he was a bad guy working for Vader to get paid, essentially an evil, one-man PMC. He's even identified in said Holiday Special as "Darth Vader's right-hand man" by C-3P0. There was no honor there-just ruthlessness and greed. The Marvel comics had to cook up a story of how the Mandos were fighting the Empire and were the good guys because Fenn Shysa allied with Leia. And of course, the Tales of the Jedi comics came way before the Karen Traviss novels, so their interpretation is more than valid. Not to mention the fact that said interpretation fit more into Lucas' main ideas for the Mandos, that they were a people who glorified war.

Toriyama doesn't even give a shit about power levels-he forgets them half the time. Lucas, however, does care. Which is why when the story makes it clear that Luke is stronger than Vader, Luke creams Vader in combat, not the other way around.

No, it's better to be good than flukey. Because you'll never know if the fluke works for you or the other guy.

The Jedi don't train with Dark Side techniques. They don't even bother knowing or using them. Even Yoda doesn't Force choke or use lightning bolts on people. Anakin was referring to Jedi training, not the Dark Side.

Abstract concepts are sometimes more important. Hell, the Mandalorians care more about abstract concepts than people too, otherwise they wouldn't be mercenaries, they'd be nationalistic and be more about building up their own society rather than playing mercenary to some random buffoons across the galaxy if they really cared about what's good for the people of Mandalore. They'd chuck the Supercommando Codex away in favor of building up Mandalore as a nation and a military power, kind of like what the Tarkin clan did with Eriadu.

Sometimes the simpler route isn't better. Especially with how Lucas portrayed Anakin as such simple evil as killing children, when turning them over to Palpatine to be made into servants of darkness would have been far better in terms of showing how evil he's become. It's about as simple as portraying the lone Mandalorian character in the OT as a greedy scumbag who kills for money, and doing it again in the Prequels.

Er, no. Again, not wanting to kill is part of Jedi dogma. Luke had a personal attachment to Vader, yes. But compared to Yoda and Obi-Wan who just wanted Luke to be a hitman, Luke was more of a Jedi when he proposed SAVING Vader instead of gutting him. Especially since the latter option sounds more like what the Sith would do. The fact that he was willing to forgive Vader despite all his evil wasn't just because the man was his father-after all, sons have wanted their fathers dead for offenses that weren't as bad as "chopping off my hand." Luke forgave Vader for that slight and even wanted to redeem him-which is exactly what Jedi teachings tell you to do. If you went with just pure emotions, you wouldn't be so forgiving of your old man if he chopped off your hand while he knew that you were his son. Even Mark Hamill cites not giving up as something that Jedi do.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jOwj7lJv2sE

I was talking about how Lucas was more pro-Jedi than anything. He didn't see greyness as positive, and he certainly isn't in favor of Sith or Mandalorian ways of thinking. Again, here is his quote from his own words:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=68dvgRT3Kx8

0:55 "You got the Dark Side, the Light Side. One is Selfless, one is Selfish, and you want to keep them in balance. What happens when you go to the Dark Side is that it goes out of balance, and you get really selfish and you forget about everybody. Ultimately you lead yourself, because when you get selfish you get stuff, or you want stuff. And when you want stuff and you get stuff, then you get afraid that someone is gonna take it away from you, whether it's a person, or a thing, or a particular pleasure or experience. Once you become afraid that someone is going to take it away from you, that you're going to lose it, then you start to become angry, especially if you're losing it. And that anger, leads to hate. And hate leads to suffering, mostly on the part of the person who is selfish, because you spent all your time being afraid of losing everything you've got, instead of actually living. For joy, by giving to other people, you can't think about yourself, and therefore there is no pain, but the pleasure factor of greed and selfishness is a short-lived experience. Therefore you're constantly trying to replenish it. But of course, the more you replenish it, the harder it is to keep upping the ante. You're actually afraid of having the pain of not having the joy. So that is ultimately the core of the whole Dark Side, Light Side of the Force. And everything flows from that.

Obviously the Sith are always unhappy, because they never get enough of anything they want. Mostly, their selfishness centers around power and control, and the struggle is always to be able to let go of all that stuff. And of course that's the problem with Anakin ultimately is. You're allowed to love people, but not possess them, and what he did was that he fell in love, married her, became jealous, and then he saw in his visions that she was going to die. He couldn't stand losing her. So in order to not lose her, he made a pact with the devil, to be able to become all powerful. But of course when he did that, she didn't want to have anything to do with her anymore, so he lost her. Once you were powerful, being able to bring her back from the dead, well if I can do that, I can be emperor of the universe, I can do whatever I want. And once you do that, you're never be satiated. You'll always be consumed by this drive and desire to have more stuff, and be afraid that others are going to take it away from you. And of course they are. Every time you get two Sith together, you have a master, you have the apprentice, and the apprentice is always trying to recruit another apprentice, to join with them, to kill the master. And the master knows, basically everyone below him wants his job. Only overcoming the Dark Side, you need discipline, the Dark Side is pleasure, biological, temporary, and easy to achieve. The Light Side is joy, everlasting, and difficult to achieve. You have to overcome laziness, give up quick pleasures, and overcome fear, which leads to hate. Amen. Now let us pray."

This quote shows how Lucas supports and totally agrees with Jedi philosophy. He didn't try to portray the Jedi as falling off the deep end or even wrong-his own personal philosophy of how SW works is basically the same slop the Jedi teach to their kids. In summation, Lucas' personal philosophy is "Light Side/Jedi=good, Dark Side=bad." It's as basic as that.

Again, Lucas characterized the CIS as greedy, power-hungry types:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4MdUrh7iZMU

And of course, as I stated above, Lucas BELIEVES in Jedi philosophy as the way SW characters work, when he himself gave an interview that I listed above. So again, while the war was having its effects on the Jedi, it was far from an unjustifiable war, especially when the other side is so evil that A) they're planning to use a massive robot army to force the Senate and the galaxy to be their bitch, and B) they made the Death Star plans in the first place. Heck, TCW even portrayed Separatists as run-of-the-mill goons, and that work had Lucas getting involved as well. Yes, they introduced TWO Separatist characters who were sympathetic, with the Bonterris, but one died and the other defected to the Republic.

Well, Lucas DID approve of a mountain of works that portrayed Jango Fett as a Mando, so it goes both ways. Maybe he changed his mind about Jango, maybe he didn't care and allowed Filoni to run his mouth on how Jango isn't a Mando. Who knows?

Every enemy of the Jedi were redeemed-but only because they became less anti-Jedi as the years went by. The CIS remnants worked with Jedi refugees and Loyalist to the Old Republic in forming the Rebel Alliance, the Empire BECOMES A STATE OWNED EXCLUSIVELY BY A JEDI DYNASTY, and the Mandos become servants of the same New Republic that the Jedi supported. They were only made good when they got in bed with the Jedi Order's allies, namely, the heads of the Alliance to Restore the Republic and their governments, the New Republic and the Galactic Alliance.

So? Lucas wouldn't exactly be the first person to profit off a corporate franchise while whining about how evil corporations are. But as his characterizations of the Trade Federation and Confederate leaders stand in the movies, he shows them as greedy assholes while his preferred heroes are self-sacrificing monks who don't hold onto personal wealth or power.

Many Jedi figurines are also hard to find/expensive as fuck. And again, Darth Vader isn't just a class on his own, he's a Sith Lord. He represents an archetype that is common in Star Wars. Every other Sith is compared to him or Palpatine. And the fact that the franchise's most popular Sith far outsells the franchise's most popular Mandalorian speaks volumes.

Well, what can you do? 1313 got canned because Disney. But still, even if it was made, that would be like what, TWO games when compared to all the Jedi games cluttering up the SW game market?

Not really. Most of the people who bought the Ahsoka toys were teens (or parents with kids tagging along with them) who saw her on the TCW cartoon. That's hardly equal to "pedophiles" when the brats are liking a character who's at their age range. What, you gonna call them pedos too? Most of the older fans were going for the classics like Vader, Stormtroopers, Fett, and Luke. I last saw an adult walk around the store clutching one of the new Black Series ESB Vader figures.

Clone Wars and Rebels were shows mainly about Jedi. The Mandalorian is the first show that's mainly about, well, A MANDALORIAN.

Yeah, no, keep dreaming. At most, the Mandalorians you'll see in the future are the Death Watch ones while the Ahsoka fans and the TCW fans take over the future of SW. At most, Karen Traviss fans will have to contend with Jedi fans on the one hand idolizing the likes of Ahsoka, Kenobi, and maybe even Kanan Jarrus, while the Mandalorians they'll feature will be Death Watch guys like Bo-Katan or Sabine Wren, both of whom were Clan Vizsla members. There's already talk of bringing Ahsoka to the Mandalorian show, and the Mandos they're going off on are the Death Watch ones from TCW, which the Mandalorian, Din Djarin, was a member of, since they found him as a boy. With the Ahsoka fans being rather strong in the TCW and SW fandom as a whole, it's gonna be a very "Orange" future for Star Wars, if you catch my drift.

Except in many EU works, the Jedi as a whole gave a damn about clones. The few who didn't were either oddballs or were outright traitors. That, and the Republic never enforced the law about slavery-it was just up to each territory to decide. Plus, with the Supreme Chancellor getting emergency powers, he has the LEGAL RIGHT to draft people into the Grand Army of the Republic, and he just drafted all the clones into it. Even if the clones were citizens of the Republic, the Republic giving emergency powers to the Chancellor and drafting the clones into the GAR means that they're legally bound to serve in the front lines. Even if the Jedi went all Rahm Kota and assembled their own militias and refused to use the clones, the clones would still be made to serve because A) they were already indoctrinated by Jango and the Kaminoans to be Republic patsies and B) Palpatine has no shortage of local security officers and militia personnel to serve as generals and admirals. Also, Anakin can be reckless in his assaults, getting many clones killed. While he does care for them, he's not as conservative with their lives when it comes to other Jedi who would prefer a defensive approach that gets less men killed, a la Obi-Wan.

Considering that many popular senators like Bail Organa and Padme Amidala were Jedi patsies, if the Jedi Council told them that Palpatine was a Sith Lord and presented the dead bodies of three Jedi masters as proof of his powers (that and it seems that they have cameras that can see into the Chancellor's office, as we saw Anakin kneeling before Sidious in the Jedi Temple recordings) they'd believe it and encourage other Senators to believe it as well. Palpatine consolidating power as Emperor prevented Bail from telling the truth, but if Palpatine was dead and a reputable Senator denounced him as a Sith, well, who will be there to stop him?

Again, Trebor wasn't even paying attention to Jango until the latter opened fire on him, giving Jango an easy kill.

Jango seemed fine when he faced Windu. Again, it seemed that the only damage he had from the beast running him over was his jetpack. But then again, this was a man who was unable to kill Kenobi even when his son brought in starfighter backup even with his jetpack, so even with an unfair advantage, he couldn't defeat the Jedi. Only surprise seems to work.

Slave-1 was a factor since it FIRED AT KENOBI. That, and even with that support, Jango was unable to defeat the Jedi. It was just a draw, and Kenobi still got what he wanted when he tagged the ship with a tracking device.

Lucas approved of Dark Empire, which stated that Boba Fett got out of the Sarlacc alive and well. I fail to see how this is a problem, especially when Lucas' favorite comic book portrayed Boba at good health after having escaped the Sarlacc.

Again, that concept art is something Lucas threw away. That's not even canon or something Lucas put into the final product, nor was it even shot as a deleted scene, so it is unadmissible as evidence. Lucas himself shot the idea down because Boba was too young, but that doesn't prove anything. If anything, again, Lucas and Jackson even agreed that Windu was still alive after EPIII. So he axed the whole "Boba killing Windu" altogether since not even Sidious and Anakin could kill the man.

Armor will soften the blow, however. Padding, too, which Jango seemed to have.

Those video games and their lore are as canon as the books you drool over. I also cited comic books and movies, which are also just as canon. Lore-wise, there's nothing a Mando can do when blasted by Force Lightning or crushed by Dark Side telekinesis.

So? What's to say Boba's next shot wouldn't just graze Luke instead of killing him? What's to say he wouldn't deflect it back at Boba?

You didn't show the last panel where Fett chickens out and runs away after killing that one Stormtrooper:

Star Wars: Dark Empire Trilogy TPB (Part 2) - Read Star Wars: Dark Empire Trilogy TPB (Part 2) comic online in high quality

Read Star Wars: Dark Empire Trilogy TPB (Part 2) comic online free and high quality. Unique reading type: All pages - just need to scroll to read next page.

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Notice how the Dark Jedi remain calm as Fett chickens out and runs. As if he wasn't even a threat to them, despite the fact that they're the kind of Dark Jedi that Luke can easily scrape off his boots. Looks like they can fuck with Mandalorians and walk off calmly because the Mandalorians aren't a threat to them at all.

Darth Vader was still portrayed by the story as a child-killing, subordinate-choking asshole who the good guys (Han, Yoda, Obi-Wan) wanted to kill. Jango Fett tried to off a Senator who was campaigning for peace, and his son Boba Fett was Darth Vader's right-hand man who also worked for freaks like Jabba the Hutt. That is not sympathetic in the slightest.

I wasn't claiming that Imperial officers had moral authority. It's more a case of "even evil has standards" because most Imperials wouldn't lower themselves to being sellouts and mercenaries since they have loyalty to their nation and are willing to die for it. When fucking Space Nazis have more honor than you, that's when you have no moral high ground against the fucking Jedi.

No, I'm sure that greed is something that most religions, societies, and even secular philosophies see as evil. Especially when your leader runs off to kill an innocent woman campaigning for peace BECAUSE HE WAS PAID. If he was paid to kill innocents marked as "undesirables" by someone, and he freely took that contract instead of being forced to, then yes, he bears the brunt of the blame for that evil act.

Rohlan only was with the Mandalorians in the EARLY part of the war. So again, that could have changed drastically, especially since he split off from the other Mandos in the first issue he showed up in. So while Mandalorians were capturing Jedi back then when the Order was officially not involved, (and the only ones snooping around are PADAWANS) the orders could have changed the moment Revan officially got recognition from the public and began leading Jedi Knights and Masters in the front. That, and Rohlan was out of contact with the Mandos for several issues, especially when the "Rohlan" who ends up with the gang was actually DEMAGOL HIMSELF while Rohlan got stuck in Demagol's armor, getting the book thrown at him by Malak at a Republic court.

No, this is not how it works. Name me one Jedi Master in Demagol's prison. I'll wait. I have time.

Rohlan was out of contact with the Mandalorians the moment he deserted-and that was VERY EARLY during the Mandalorian Wars, BEFORE Revan and the Jedi entered the war in large numbers, which is at the EIGHTH TPB volume. Rohlan deserted at VOLUME TWO. By that time, Zayne Carrick went from a wanted man to a celebrity, and the Jedi "Crusaders" went from a small group of students to an officially-sanctioned movement with the blessing of the Jedi Council AND the Republic Army after Revan arrived at the site of the Mandalorians' massacre of the Cathars and picked up the mask of a dissenting Mandalorian female who was killed for trying to protect the cat-people.

Here's Canderous telling the story:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rstjJIJiSVU

You can call him a suck-up all you want, but the fucker guts Dark Jedi for a living, so I've got no problems trusting him over you. Plus, if you're looking at inconsistencies, Karen Traviss' works are nothing but inconsistent with the rest of the SW universe. Which explains why you keep playing down video games, comics, and other stories that were canon to Legends when they contradict your rose-tinted view of the Mandos, whereas Tales of the Jedi and other works like KOTOR and TCW (also known as the most popular SW works among the fans) see the Mandos as violent thugs.

Volume Ten of the KOTOR comics shows Zayne Carrick was able to outfox a Mandalorian force that had Jedi support which was gunning for Dantooine. In the opening of said comic, he was defeating Mandalorians despite holding back so as to not kill. Even though he's the joke of the Jedi Order, he was still able to beat Mandalorians, both mentally, and physically.

The Hunter can also refuse to join the Mandalorians. Doesn't make them any less badass. In fact, even if the Hunter joins the Mandos, they don't lift a finger when the Jedi and the Republic slander the Hunter. The SITH end up protecting and funding the Hunter, and supporting them in their quest for revenge against the Jedi and the Republic. So if anything, the Hunter belongs with the Empire, not the Mandos, because they've been killing Mandos BEFORE becoming Grand Champion, and they end up working with the Empire's protection, not Mandalore's. The only thing the Mandos do is recruit a warrior who has already proven themselves, which doesn't make them responsible for the Hunter being a badass. Even Braden had minimal contact with the Hunter before the former was unceremoniously and dishonorably killed by another Mandalorian.

Whether or not it's a power fantasy, the Hunter killing Kellian Jarro BEFORE becoming a Mando is still part of the lore. As much a part of the lore as any novel, comic, or TV show. Again, you have a tendency to ignore things in Legends that outright contradicts your arguments.

If Mandalorians took ceremony very seriously, then they would have protected the Hunter when the latter was being targeted for eradication by the Jedi and the Republic, because the Hunter went through a ceremony where Mandalore himself made the Hunter a Mandalorian. Instead, the Sith wind up offering the Hunter protection and contracts, because apparently Mandalore was too busy not fighting the Republic and the Jedi seriously to PROTECT HIS PET GRAND CHAMPION. The Sith are carrying out operations against the Jedi, the Republic, the Star Cabal, and they still had time to offer the Hunter some protection-the Mandos didn't.

That didn't happen anywhere in the game-Clan Lok didn't provide any protection or support when the Hunter was literally getting hunted by the Republic. It wasn't even named in the game.

Ironically enough, the Hunter even ends up being more successful than Boba Fett ever was. Fett never bagged the enemy head of state after killing the Battlemaster of the Jedi Order. And again, the Hunter can tell Mandalore and the Mandalorians to shove their warrior traditions up their backsides and go at it alone.

Imperial Intelligence is mentioned in lore videos outside of the game. Republic special forces showed up in several comics before the game came out. And the statement stands: these groups have people that have killed Jedi and Sith, making them as dangerous, if not more dangerous, than the average Mandalorian.

Considering that the average Jedi is of a far greater quality in terms of ability than the average Mandalorian, no. It just shows that again, the Jedi get the best of the best. The 1% of the 1%. The same goes for the Mandos and their recruitment processes, no? They don't just accept any dimwit and put beskar on them and call them Mandos. The Jedi just have stringier standards, and given how the Jedi win against Mandos more than once, it seems that those higher standards were worth something.

The Mandalorian character (or non-Mando Hunter) can only vanquish the Emperor in KOTET with the help of other Force-wielders. Same goes for a Smuggler, a Special Forces Trooper, and an Imperial Intelligence Agent. But in the vanilla game, only the Jedi Knight manages to do that job. That, and the Sith Warrior, but that was more "assisted suicide" than actually vanquishing the guy.

Zym gets easily killed by Braden. Braden gets easily defeated by Orgus Din. There's the proof, it's staring at you in the face.

Except it is part of the lore. The lore already stated that the Hunter was killing Jedi even before becoming a Mando. And of course, he's the equal of A) a smuggler pirate king, B) a well-decorated Republic Soldier, and C) an Imperial Intelligence Agent. Again, this stuff falls into the purview of C-canon-which makes it as canon as the encyclopedias, comics and novels. The Smuggler fought against Sith in their storyline, and the Imperial Intelligence Agent defeated Jedi in their storyline.

Except again, Revan was already beating the Mandalorians well before Malachor V, which shows that he was a great tactician and commander. Malachor V was the Mandos' last gambit. Revan only used the Mass Shadow Generator because he had plenty of Republic and Jedi forces which weren't loyal to him that he needed removed. So he got rid of his least-loyal troops among the Jedi and Republic forces fighting the Mandos, and he eradicated the Mandalorian forces. That seems like tactical and strategic victory to me, pal.

Malachor's Dual Purpose

HK-47 theorizes that apart from defeating the mandalorians, Revan's plan of using the Mass Shadow Generator at Malachor V had another purpose. That perhaps c...

www.youtube.com

"Master, I do not believe that the Mandalorians were the true target at Malachor. I believe that the intention was to destroy the Jedi, break their will, and make them loyal to Revan. I do not know if you examined the records of the deaths on Malachor, but you cannot escape that many of the Jedi and Republic soldiers who died were not Revan's strongest supporters. Observation: I believe that Revan was 'cleaning house' at Malachor V. What ones that did not die, became Revan's allies against the Republic."

The man was preparing a war against the Republic back on Malachor V. He just chucked the Mandalorians and his least-loyal troops among the Jedi and Republic forces into the fire so they can't stop him when he finally turns on the Republic.

So? The Republic forces were coming at them with subpar armor and blasters. At that point, each Mando should have taken at least ten guys with him to hell when he died. The problem was, the Jedi out-foxed and defeated them at every turn.

Which is why Jango said "you killed them all." All his men were there, and they all died. Well, maybe ecxept for Silas, but Dooku eventually took care of him.

Jango had an army, and they all died. The Protectors rallied around an impostor who pretended to be him.

T-canon is higher than C-canon in the canon hierarchy during 2008 onwards before the sale to Disney. The defined canon hierarchy before the sale was G-canon at the top, T-canon in the middle, C-canon below T-canon, and everything else below C wasn't canon.

People = Everyone.

 

[LORD IMPERATOR]

We now return you to your regularly scheduled autistic slap-fight, already in progress.

Spoiler: MANDO MADNESS VII: HEIR TO THE MANDOS PART II

Yeah, no. People who watched the films AND read the comics and novels were the Fandalorians. People who only watched the films laugh at the Fetts for failing to kill Jedi. Their only Jedi kill onscreen was a surprise attack, they failed to defeat Kenobi, Windu, and Luke. In fact, the EU fans had to tell the casuals that there was more to Boba and Jango than being failures at "killing Jedi 101."

G-canon also blows out any C-canon novels with Karen Traviss. If we're only going with G-canon, the Mandalorians shown were nothing more but greedy assholes who would kill innocent people for profit (Jango) and work for scumbags like Jabba(Boba). Also, the G-canon films have the Jedi openly say that their ability to use the Force has been diminished, which means that yes, works where Jedi are stronger than Prequel Jedi are still canon since the Prequel Jedi openly admit they're weaker in the Force than their predecessors. It's in the movie, pal. You clearly weren't paying attention. But I really shouldn't be surprised.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=to0AM25gfDY

"I think it is time that we informed the Senate that our ability to use the Force has diminished."

Not really. I kinda like Canderous because he GUTS Dark Jedi and other Force Users face-to-face with blades despite being a muggle. I'm also a fan of Thrawn, Wedge Antilles, Lando Calrissian, General Veers, Boss/RC1138, Captain Rex, the SWTOR Smuggler character (referred to as the Voidhound) and many other non-Force-using characters, some of whom have killed Force-users. And I already told you I had a healthy respect for the Fetts as villains. Again, you know little about me and what I'm a fan of.

There's nothing to suggest that Beskar wasn't used in the old eras as it was later on. Heck, Freedon Nadd's tomb was protected by Beskar, and the KOTOR comics had lightsabers being deflected by Beskar armor. But here's the thing though-there's enough gaps in the armor for a Jedi to strike through, and a Sith whose body is pumped up enough by the Dark Side can break through that armor with sheer force of will.

Crossbow bolts punch through breastplates and other plate armors with ease. The only drawback is the time of reloading. That, and they don't have the fear/disorienting factor muskets have.

Except the force of a lightsaber hiting something is enhanced by the Force or the sheer strength of someone wielding it. Grievous broke through a phrik staff Kenobi used to block his lightsabers due to sheer strength alone:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JeuZz6J5tvc

(2:00)

If they can do that to phrik, then Mandalorian Beskar is similarly vulnerable.

In the KOTOR era, SWTOR era, and in Open Seasons, Mandalorians got killed by both blaster bolts and Jedi despite wearing their signature armor. Or don't you do your research?

I've read more than my share of SW books and comics. Also, real books that talk about stuff in the real world. I only used Super Mario as an analogy to show how Beskar doesn't suddenly make you invincible against lightsabers.

"Heroes" is a subjective term that can mean "guy who's a hero for our side because he kills the enemy". In the movies, name me a single "good" Separatist.

My quote on Lucas, above, the one with two paragraphs.

Really? We didn't see past 1000 years after the Vong War. We only saw up to a century, and the galaxy seems to have recovered by the time of the Legacy Era. Whereas the Prequels take place 1000 years after the New Sith Wars finally ended.

The Massacre at Ossus was spearheaded by the Sith who killed the Jedi. Whereas the Mandos and their leader got their cans kicked by REGULAR STORMTROOPERS who forced them to retreat! XD

I'm merely a scapegoat for mimetic desire.

Sure, you're sure, but you're also insane.

Which must always and forever be subordinate to G-Canon.

Pyrrhic victories are not something to crow about.

Your sources are the very definition of selective. You can't even cite a single page from Dark Empire without omitting crucial information that cripples the spin that you're trying to put on it, your preferred sources are video games designed with the intent of making the player feel like the Galaxy's prime badass (which, as I've demonstrated, works against you as well as it does for you) and your knowledge of G-canon is simply embarrassing if you're not actually lying your ass off to try and shore up your arguments.

And you haven't demonstrated that your alleged majority is right, hence the fallacy.

The burden of proof is on you, actually. First to demonstrate that your assertion represents a majority opinion and then to demonstrate that it is factually correct.

With you, the Jedi are scapegoats.

Insane why? Episode III proves that the Chancellor can kill the Jedi with nary any evidence or trial, just his word that they're traitors. If they refused to fight the Separatists, that would be all the "proof" the Chancellor needs to say that they're still in bed with their old pal Dooku and they need to be spaced.

G-canon says that the Mandalorians are scumbags who keep losing to the Jedi and can't kill one outside of a surprise attack. C and T canon had to pull out a story and an honor code for the Mandalorians so they wouldn't get stuck being known as the SW equivalent of Team Rocket.

Pyrrhic isn't the term to describe it. Especially when the Mandos lose far more by percentage than the Jedi do when they fight.

You're the one who didn't show the whole page from Dark Empire, where in the lower section of the page, Fett chickens out and the Dark Jedi don't even see him as something worth bothering with anymore. Also, I cited books, games, comics, and the shows, along with quotes and examples from the movies, whereas all you've done is quote novels and comics badly, which makes YOUR sources selective, since I have a broad range of sources. The fact that you had to edit that page from Dark Empire to omit the lower portion goes to show this.

Except you haven't demonstrated why the majority is wrong, hence why you're the one who is wrong.

Even the person you're praising admits that many EU fans bash the shit out of LOTF. It's not an assertion when both sides see it as factually correct.

 

[Uranus Pink]

Gotcha. I only vaguely remember Shaak Ti.

Rosario Dawson is going to look ridiculous in that make up. Not at all as hot as Aayla Secura.

Would it kill Disney if they hire some 18 to 24 year old aspiring porn actresses to play the female torgutas instead of worn out 40 something has beens?

 

[LORD IMPERATOR]

Would it kill Disney if they hire some 18 to 24 year old aspiring porn actresses to play the female torgutas instead of worn out 40 something has beens?

That would piss off the parents in the audience. They'd accuse porn actresses of "corrupting the youth." We've also seen how the woke crowd reacts to hot chicks in anime. Hot chicks in a live-action show would be "objectifying" in their eyes.

 

[BipolarPon]

Would it kill Disney if they hire some 18 to 24 year old aspiring porn actresses to play the female torgutas instead of worn out 40 something has beens?

That's the age Ahsoka would be by the time of the Mandalorian, besides Rosario Dawson isn't an ugly actress, not that I wanted Ahsoka to show up in that show at all.

Since we our on the topic of Boba Fett and Jango Fett, did anyone notice how the Wook quietly removed the helmet collection sources as it clearly confirms they were Mandos despite Hidalgo saying no. I think it's been brought up before that Wookipedia is slowly shortening the "Legends articles," to make the Nu-Canon look more complex, vast, interesting, better, but that's clearly not the case. I'm certain most of the editors are Lucasfilm/Disney employees now.

 

[LORD IMPERATOR]

That's the age Ahsoka would be by the time of the Mandalorian, besides Rosario Dawson isn't an ugly actress, not that I wanted Ahsoka to show up in that show at all.

The TCW fans are one of the more influential blocs of SW fandom now. And their voice will be heard. Which means yes, Ahsoka's gonna be in the show.

 

[Creep3r]

I forgot if I asked this already or not but has WDW Pro mentioned the Apple merger rumors or a possible sale?

Nothing of the sort as far as I can see. Just that Disney is struggling to keep things stable and rely on investors for help. I think he once implied that the sports division/ESPN might go, but I'll have to recheck that to be sure. The fucker has a shit ton of posts.

 

[White Devil]

I have a feeling shoe horning this character in, especially because she's a mary sue waifu, is going to make season 2 fucking stupid.


EDIT:

Plot a Course to The Sims™ 4 STAR WARS™: Journey to Batuu Game Pack

Not long from now, in a galaxy very near to ours… your Sims will arrive on Batuu!

www.ea.com

Looks like EA is trying to make a worse version of SWG now.