Star Wars Griefing Thread (SPOILERS) - Safety off

[Shield Breaker]

But then again, that would make the Force too cheap. Everyone can be a Jedi. Han, Chewie, Lando, Wedge, everyone. Heck, that would have made it too easy to revive the Jedi Order. The Rebels already existed, so they could have easily spread the Jedi teachings among Rebel troops and a good quarter of them can practice it and become Force-wielders, meaning that the Jedi can be restored in practically a few years, undoing the effects of the Great Jedi Purge because millions/billions/trillions of people who hate the Empire and have signed on with the Rebels began practicing Jedi yoga and have tapped into the Force. In a few years, you'll have a Star Wars Galaxies-style scenario where millions of Jedi charge into Imperial-held territories slaughtering Stormtroopers by the bucketloads and overthrowing the Emperor overnight, while Rebel starfighter pilots trained in the Jedi ways have perfect precision in their attacks on Imperial vessels that they don't even need targeting computers to annihilate whole fleets of Star Destroyers and even a dozen Death Stars. The Empire and its fleet would get overthrown in a matter of a few years, further cheapening the conflict.

Nah, it says right there the Skywalker family is strong in the Force. Everyone can do it, but only certain people can get much out of it. It makes more sense to me.

Seems like he hates them and how popular they were, so he tried to paint them into villians.

TBF, way way back in the day they were villains. Around the time the Thrawn trilogy came out, the Mandolarians were the reason why the Republic needed clones, and not the Separatists.

 

[LORD IMPERATOR]

Nah, it says right there the Skywalker family is strong in the Force. Everyone can do it, but only certain people can get much out of it. It makes more sense to me.

No it doesn't. If everyone can use the Force, it'd take a mere ten years for some Alliance operatives to create a Jedi Order numbering in the millions. All they'd need to do is pass around Jedi texts and teachings among themselves in their hidden fortresses across the galaxy, take a million men and assign them to be specialists who would train in the Jedi Way, and in ten years' time or less, you'd have a Jedi force numbering a million or more, which would make the Great Jedi Purge utterly useless and the Empire would get eradicated years before the OT even begins. It would be the Jedi equivalent of the Yellow Turban Rebellion where millions of followers of a Way of Supreme Peace rebelled against an empire, except this time, every follower has Force Powers and they smash the Imperial armies and navies rather easily, with Jedi winning on the ground battles while Jedi pilots use the Force to strike at the Imperial fleet with pinpoint accuracy and near-superhuman pilot reflexes. There would also be more people using Battle Meditation, so even regular Rebel grunts would win battles against well-trained Stormtroopers just because some dude in a bathrobe got into a yoga position somewhere close. Overthrowing the Empire would be so easy that the main heroes from the OT would come into the picture years after Vader, Tarkin, and Palpatine have become nothing more but distant memories.

 

[Shield Breaker]

No it doesn't. If everyone can use the Force, it'd take a mere ten years for some Alliance operatives to create a Jedi Order numbering in the millions. All they'd need to do is pass around Jedi texts and teachings among themselves in their hidden fortresses across the galaxy, take a million men and assign them to be specialists who would train in the Jedi Way, and in ten years' time or less, you'd have a Jedi force numbering a million or more, which would make the Great Jedi Purge utterly useless and the Empire would get eradicated years before the OT even begins.

The idea seems to be it takes a lot longer than ten years, and most of the powerful force families and the texts were wiped out. It was possible for anyone to learn how to use the Force, but you still needed to have the genes to become a really powerful one.

 

[LORD IMPERATOR]

The idea seems to be it takes a lot longer than ten years, and most of the powerful force families and the texts were wiped out. It was possible for anyone to learn how to use the Force, but you still needed to have the genes to become a really powerful one.

Nope. That whole thing about Jedi needing a lifetime of training came from the Prequels. In the OT era, Luke Skywalker and Kyle Katarn took only a few years to become masters of the Jedi Arts. Also, Jedi texts and teachings could easily have been preserved by Rebel operatives and Jedi sympathizers, and in a galaxy as big as the SW galaxy, information would be easy to come by and copy. This isn't like Ancient Rome where Christian gospels were hard to copy and even harder to pass around-all you'd need is a document full of Jedi teachings and hit the copy button enough so every Rebel Alliance member in their bases have a full copy of the Jedi Code. And no, Lucas reneged on the idea that anyone can use the Force, and thank God for that. Otherwise, you'd have a Star Wars Galaxies scenario where there's millions of Jedi, if not billions. And at that point, even if Vader and the Emperor were truly powerful Sith, all it would take is less than 2000 minor Jedi to kill them, which at that point, would be a minor bug bite at most.

 

[White Devil]

The idea seems to be it takes a lot longer than ten years, and most of the powerful force families and the texts were wiped out. It was possible for anyone to learn how to use the Force, but you still needed to have the genes to become a really powerful one.

He seems to think that you just add water and you get Instant Jedi. It's why I stopped bothering to argue it.

 

[LORD IMPERATOR]

He seems to think that you just add water and you get Instant Jedi. It's why I stopped bothering to argue it.

The Old Trilogy had the idea that in just a few short years, you can go from a pleb to a Jedi Knight. And I didn't say instantly, I said a few years or maybe even a decade. Stop putting words in my mouth.

The Rebels have millions of people and many countless bases, and people know the Jedi Teachings since many Rebel leaders worked closely with them and could easily have hidden Jedi teachings with them. Shit, all you need is a paper with the Jedi Code and the general gist of Jedi teachings, or have Obi-Wan or Yoda talk into a camera for several sessions. And yes, the Rebel leaders knew where Kenobi was-hence why Leia was going to Tatooine to meet him, and the only reason the Imps followed her was because she was working with Rebels who attacked the Empire and stole the Death Star plans. So if she didn't bother to do the latter, Leia, or any other Rebel operative, could have gone to Tatooine, gotten a few holorecordings of Kenobi speaking into a camera for a few hours about Jedi teachings, and then left. Then the Rebels can copy-paste those vids and send them to every Alliance hideout, and since nobody attacked the Empire, the Empire wouldn't suspect a thing.

If everyone can use the Force, you can take those recordings, pass them around, have some loyal men willing to learn, and after several years or maybe a decade, you'd have a Jedi army in the millions. The OT took four years to take Luke, who at most was just your average soldier from the start, to make him into a full Jedi Knight capable of giving Darth Vader a beatdown. Imagine what they can do in a decade, if everyone could use the Force.

What exactly is wrong with that idea? Other than you guys going "oh, it takes decades to train Jedi" which is an idea that came around in the PREQUEL era?

This is why the idea of only a few being able to USE the Force in the first place is actually a good step. It limits who can and can't become a Jedi, and it makes the Jedi Purge stick: not only are there only a few people who can use the Force, but the guys who used to seek them out to make them Jedi were gone, except for a few, and it makes reviving the Jedi an actual challenge. The idea of everyone being able to use the Force takes the specialty of Jedi away. Lucas must've realized that and limited the amount of potential Force users dramatically so as to make sure that the few who can use the Force are actually important to the OT's story, and even the Jedi, at their height in the Prequels, have limited numbers and still face the threat of being eradicated, since it's not like Ancient Christianity where even if a few teachers survive the empire's ruthless persecution, they can record and pass down the faith to thousands/millions of converts in the future, and end up overthrowing and assimilating the very system that persecuted them.

 

[Adamska]

It's pretty clear that being force sensitive was an inherent thing in the OT and PT, you either were more able to interact with the life energy of the universe (able to use the force) or you just were a part of it (you can't). In the OT, it's further hinted at by how only Leia was posited as "the other", which wouldn't work if everyone had the potential. Han, Lando, Chewie, Mon Mothma. Any of them could've by that logic become the Other and a Jedi as a result. But they didn't, which means only some people have the gift.

As for training time and more proof of heritability: In the PT, Anakin would've died podracing without the force despite having legit no training at all at that time. A normal human would've died, but a force user could pull it off due to their improved perception and reflexes. On top of that, this was an untrained kid who pulled off the win, meaning there are signs and talents you can work on to make an army even with just the basics. If everyone had the potential to use the force, others would've been able to pull this off before hand.

The everyone can have force potential that's being argued is utter rubbish from Disney. Worse yet, this is an idea from Kennedy, right around the time of The Last Jedi.

Even better, even the new lore dunks on that idea. Why? Well, it's pretty clearly heritable given how even in the ST, the main force users you see are descended from prior force users. And the new lore also pretty clearly shows how force users don't even really need training to use their powers given how Rey basically became a Master in a year and could do significant force effects.

 

[Grumpy]

In the PT, Anakin would've died podracing without the force despite having legit no training at all at that time. A normal human would've died, but a force user wouldn't. On top of that, this was an untrained kid who pulled off the win, meaning there are signs and talents you can work on even with just the basics.

It's important to also mention that Anakin was so strong in the Force, his readings were literally off the charts. They couldn't even measure how powerful of a Force user he had the potential to become, so even in an untrained state his premonitions would have been much more attuned than the typical Force Adept.

 

[Adamska]

It's important to also mention that Anakin was so strong in the Force, his readings were literally off the charts. They couldn't even measure how powerful of a Force user he had the potential to become, so even in an untrained state his premonitions would have been much more attuned than the typical Force Adept.

And Luke was still one of the best shots when it came to hunting wamprats too. You either can commune and work with the force, or you can't and are just a part of it.

It's like how Psykers work in that respect, just with less lobotomies and screaming portals to super-hell.

 

[Creep3r]

And yet Iger and co are still Dems and likely fund them, the party that insists on lockdowns like this. No fucking sympathy on my end.

A bit off-topic but somewhat relevant; according to that WDWPro guy who now does articles for Clownfish, Iger is no longer considering running as a dem presidential candidate. Makes me wonder if this whole thing plus the furlough and the messy transition with Chapek kind of soured his image.

Now for some news... Here is the SW Galaxy's Edge hotel's current progress.

Its expected to open in late 2021 or 2022 if anything goes wrong. Not a promising date. However some new controversy has sprung up surrounding the name and nature of the hotel.

Specifically its meant to simulate a cruise rather than a hotel, so once you go in, you won't be able to leave for 3 or more days, with the only "shuttle" being a connection to Galaxy's Edge. You're also stuck cosplaying in a space costume the whole time while larping, which won't sit well with normalfags and most diehard fans outside of the fags at Wookieepedo and Jedi Council Forums won't really invest in sequel roleplay. Further confusion is had due to the name of the hotel, which is "Star Wars Galactic Starcruiser" as I've mentioned before like a year ago, but general audiences are only starting to find out about it now. So far Disneyfags and normalfags aren't pleased and a lot of what they're promising for this hotel/cruise sounds like its just asking for complaints. Here are some interesting posts from Disneyfags:

You won't be able to leave the hotel for 3 days or depending on how many days you booked, however if you want to cancel or go to other parts of the park, there will be no Disney transportation to take you from Halcyon (the name of the ship in-universe) to anywhere. Your own car won't be nearby, either. You'll have to Uber/Lyft/Minnie your way in and out (and 'ride' the simulated spaceship to planet transport in the lobby each way in and out).

The problem is that most people, when they imagine themselves "in Star Wars," imagine themselves as a Jedi having heroic adventures or maybe as an evil Sith or a bounty hunter. Disney had attractions that fit this fantasy, like Star Tours, or the attraction where kids could get "lightsabers" and get Jedi training for a half hour. That's probably the perfect amount of time for most people to live out that fantasy. Anything past that and you're just doing regular stuff in a Jedi costume. Nobody imagines themselves having buffet breakfast as a Jedi or getting a Sith mani/pedi

Thank-you for your interest in staying aboard the Halcyon! Before we schedule a stay, I have some details of the event to go over with you: The Halcyon is a three-day, two-night role-playing experience that takes place entirely within the hotel building with two trips to Galaxy's Edge in Disney Hollywood Studios. Do you understand that there will be no transportation provided to you or your party from the hotel to any other destination in Walt Disney World or outside of Walt Disney World during your stay? You mean I can't go to the Magic Kingdom if I wanted? The expectation is that you're signing up for two days of Star Wars role-playing and events and you will not leave that experience for any other destination. No one will force you to stay in the hotel, but if you chose to leave, you will have to call a transportation service to leave and return at your own expense. I thought this was just a Disney hotel? It is not. It is a three-day, two-night role-playing experience that takes place entirely within the hotel building with two trips to Galaxy's Edge in Disney Hollywood Studios. Do you understand that there will be no transportation provided to you or your party from the hotel to any other destination in Walt Disney World or outside of Walt Disney World during your stay? OK, I guess I do now. Do you understand the experience includes Cast Members taking on the roles of people who inhabit the Star Wars universe and they will act in character as such for the entirety of your stay, including meals and all the events that will be available to all guests during your stay? They're going to pretend they're Star Wars characters? Yes. This is a three-day, two-night role-playing experience that takes place entirely within the hotel building with two trips to Galaxy's Edge in Disney Hollywood Studios. Do you understand that the experience includes Cast Members taking on the roles of people who inhabit the Star Wars universe and they will act in character as such for the entirety of your stay, including meals and all the events that will be available to all guests during your stay? OK, I do now. Do you understand that the experience greatly encourages all guests to also take on the role as if they were living in the Star Wars universe including dressing-up as such, if you wish, and participating in all group activities as such? You mean I gotta pretend, too? No, you don't, but we're encouraging you to, and hoping you'll find it a fun experience for you and your party. So, do you understand that the experience greatly encourages all guests to also take on the role as if they were living in the Star Wars universe including dressing-up as such, if you wish, and participating in all group activities as such? OK, I do now. At least if I don't like it, I can spend the entire time by the pool. There is no pool. Ya know... this isn't for me, thank-you for your time. Sorry to hear that, is there anything else I can help you with today? No. Have a magical day.

And yes, there is no pool. I've already posted the full blueprints of the hotel before in this thread along with all of its features. And FYI the whole roleplay element they're pushing here was originally intended for the regular GE park but they removed it to make it a hotel exclusive element for max profits. One guy has compared this to a Renaissance Fair and should be enjoyed as such, but a Renaissance Fair is an easy go-in and go-out affair that's not even expensive to take part in, while here we're talking about a hotel that costs a $1,000 a night and up to $10,000 a week.
@A Useless Fish once described it best.

This is madness. Who would this even be for? Who the fuck has that kind of money to just blow on being locked up for the weekend with a bunch of theatre school rejects in discount Chinese made costumes?

If anyone wants more detailed info on the hotel, I can link to my previous posts showing the plans and features for it. FYI the hotel is supposed to be "super canon" and features an attack from Kylo Ren. It also has a secret jedi academy despite that Rey was "all the jedi"... I guess some random cruise line is allowed to have a jedi training facility and gym but Luke can't even haven an academy. So why the fuck was Rey needed if jedi are just popping out of nowhere? Or are they going to make this Ahsoka's school...?

In non-park related news, Bespin Bulletin (another leakfag who was wrong about the Mando trailer premiere) claims that the Calrissian Whatever (the not-Katarn from RO) Disney+ show and Kenobi will be premiering in 2022 due to Corona delays. He claims the show should finish filming in July 2021 but I highly doubt that considering they haven't even started filming yet and even the director of the not-Katarn show Tony Gilroy quit the show for some reason so production must not be doing that great. Toby Haynes has been made his replacement.

Also Yaddle-fetishist Charles Soule did an interview with Hollywood Reporter about how "amazing" High Republic is.

https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/heat-vision/how-light-of-the-jedi-kicks-off-star-wars-the-high-republic?utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=social

 

[LORD IMPERATOR]

It's pretty clear that being force sensitive was an inherent thing in the OT and PT, you either were more able to interact with the life energy of the universe (able to use the force) or you just were a part of it (you can't). In the OT, it's further hinted at by how only Leia was posited as "the other", which wouldn't work if everyone had the potential. Han, Lando, Chewie, Mon Mothma. Any of them could've by that logic become the Other and a Jedi as a result. But they didn't, which means only some people have the gift.

As for training time and more proof of heritability: In the PT, Anakin would've died podracing without the force despite having legit no training at all at that time. A normal human would've died, but a force user could pull it off due to their improved perception and reflexes. On top of that, this was an untrained kid who pulled off the win, meaning there are signs and talents you can work on to make an army even with just the basics. If everyone had the potential to use the force, others would've been able to pull this off before hand.

The everyone can have force potential that's being argued is utter rubbish from Disney. Worse yet, this is an idea from Kennedy, right around the time of The Last Jedi.

Even better, even the new lore dunks on that idea. Why? Well, it's pretty clearly heritable given how even in the ST, the main force users you see are descended from prior force users. And the new lore also pretty clearly shows how force users don't even really need training to use their powers given how Rey basically became a Master in a year and could do significant force effects.

That's because everyone having the Force is a dumb idea some fans loved to peddle to make the Force more "democratic" instead of "elitist". They like the idea of it, but they can't even fathom how that would hurt the story. This isn't Elder Scrolls where everyone on the planet can practice magic, this is Star Wars, and in Star Wars, the Force is a rare thing. Aside from races that had Force-sensitivity, which are also rare, most beings don't have the Force because that would make the Jedi and Sith more special. If everyone had the Force, it would only take around five or ten years to undo the Great Jedi Purge, especially since the Alliance knows where at least one Jedi lives and can just have him record himself talking about Jedi teachings and philosophies for hours on end, and the Alliance can pass those recordings around their bases and have loyal soldiers self-educate themselves on how to become Jedi. In 5-10 years' time, you'd have millions, if not billions of Jedi coming for Palpatine's head.

Making the Force available to only a select few not only makes the Jedi Purge plausible, but that makes said purge stick, since even at the Jedi Order's height of power, there weren't that many of them and they do face the dangers of being eradicated, and once most of them were gone, rebuilding the Jedi would be a massive challenge, since only few can use the Force and the people who used to seek them out to make them Jedi are mostly dead. It makes the Force special. It makes Luke and Leia special. It also makes Vader and the few Dark-Side Force-users on the Empire's side special, since they can't just train millions of elite Stormtroopers how to use the Dark Side, but only a few can use the Dark Side, like Vader, the Emperor, and a few others like Jerec and Mara Jade.

The idea that the Force is available for all is an idea that rides only on the "cool" factor of it, and the people who push that idea don't know how to tell a story or how to make characters important. They just want it there because it looks cool and is something they personally agree with, not because it does anything for the story.

 

[Getting tard comed]

@Mississippi Motorboater you win this thread with your posts on the real EU. I appreciate you putting in the time to read and then breakdown your thoughts. I look forward to your breakdowns whenever you post them. While I have some qualms with some of your conclusions(I believe LotF definitely repudiates the NJO's ending conclusion of the light and dark sides of the force not being important and the ends justify the means morality expressed) what you are doing is great, your thought process clear! I commend you.

 

[LORD IMPERATOR]

@Mississippi Motorboater you win this thread with your posts on the real EU. I appreciate you putting in the time to read and then breakdown your thoughts. I look forward to your breakdowns whenever you post them. While I have some qualms with some of your conclusions(I believe LotF definitely repudiates the NJO's ending conclusion of the light and dark sides of the force not being important and the ends justify the means morality expressed) what you are doing is great, your thought process clear! I commend you.

I appreciate that someone found LOTF to be fun. I couldn't get any fun out of it-for me, there's just a curious black hole between the Yuuzhan Vong Era and the Legacy Era, especially since the Legacy Era has nothing from the LOTF saga at all. They got the NJO, they got the Vong, they got one of Vader's former classmates declaring himself the emperor, they even had a Jedi from the KOTOR era and Mandalorians and Sith, but nothing about how Corellia caused another war or how one of the Solos went nuts. You'd think Darth Krayt would have mentioned Darth Caedus at least once in his regime, as if thinking that he can corrupt Cade the same way Lumiya corrupted Jacen.

Ah well, to each his own, I suppose.

 

[Getting tard comed]

I appreciate that someone found LOTF to be fun. I couldn't get any fun out of it-for me, there's just a curious black hole between the Yuuzhan Vong Era and the Legacy Era, especially since the Legacy Era has nothing from the LOTF saga at all. They got the NJO, they got the Vong, they got one of Vader's former classmates, they even had a Jedi from the KOTOR era and Mandalorians and Sith, but nothing about how Corellia caused another war or how one of the Solos went nuts. You'd think Darth Krayt would have mentioned Darth Caedus at least once in his regime, as if thinking that he can corrupt Cade the same way Lumiya corrupted Jacen.

Ah well, to each his own, I suppose.

I'm not engaging in an autistic slap fight with you, no offense meant by that, but I will say this:

1)Those two things are not logically connected at all. You're enjoyment of something shouldn't, and doesn't need to have a direct connections to something that comes later. That's a non-sequitor of the highest regard.

2) The lack of references has been explained to you already. LotF and Legacy of the Force the comic series were being written and put out at the same time. The comic division literally could not include any references to what happens in LotF nor FotJ due to the comic coming out during one of the book series being published and the other one coming out after Legacy of the Force completed it's run.

Imo, the authors of LotF, and more specifically FotJ did a very good job, one I might add they did not need to, in connecting both book series with the comics themselves in the references they include to Legacy by taking elements in both book series and tying them into the future the comics laid out. Before anyone goes "if the book series could do it why couldn't the comic series do it?" One, there is no reason to assume Dark Horse comics would be privy to Del Ray's publishing story ideas. Two, most of the references in both book series I'm referring to directly tying to Legacy of the Force occur in FotJ not LotF.

I encourage you to try rereading the series again. Imo LotF and FotJ are two of the best products coming out of all of the EU(with LoTF ranking slightly ahead of FotJ), nu-wars and Thrawn, and NJO included in that assessment. I imagine they only shine brighter now that you can see how a worst version of the themes were seen in the sequels.

 

[HandsomeDan]

Continuing from where I left off... Ron Cobb, as I said before, designed some of the most iconic aliens in the franchise. View attachment 1613006
Some of the pics I have here are of the concept art he did which was published in the Monsters and Aliens from George Lucas guide from 1993.

First off is the familiar Ithorians aka Hammerheads (their N-word).
View attachment 1612921
Interestingly enough in his original concept for them, they were actually amphibians rather than land-based slug people, having webbed hands and the top of their heads could fold out into a long nose with an extra set of eyes for "long distance swimming". They still have two mouths, but rather than eating insects, Cobb described them as eating plankton instead. Cobb also described them as a very peaceful religious species, a trait they shared with the finalized version, however in the concept, their religion was described as revolving around tying knots while the finalized version worshiped nature. Cobb did several versions of these apparently.

Here's the Revwien, a species that didn't make it into ANH due to being "too complicated" and difficult to move. Although personally, they could've just had the limbs fixed in place and only have the head move like a puppet.
View attachment 1612895View attachment 1612947
Anyway, its a large plant creature with a mushroom head which Cobb described as eating bugs and also having a natural sense of humor, the best in the galaxy even. The M&A guide also mentions that the one in pic was drawn to simulate being drunk and miserable due to a bad break-up, so its a good example of "not all cut from the same cloth". Despite not appearing in the film, Revwiens would go onto be recurring background aliens in the 70s SW comics and most EU media, where they are depicted as a friendly species that places value upon honor and truth, even refusing to lie if it was beneficial for themselves or others, I guess this must've made them masters of deprecating humor. A building from the prequels was also called the Revwien Comedy House. The little necklace the other one is wearing is a spiritual totem as several Revwiens practice a religion called Tyia which is about forming ties and spiritual harmony, so in a way they ended up with the religion that Cobb originally wanted for the Ithorians.

Edit:
Forgot to add that Filoni decided to make his own version based on Cobb's art because he thought no one had used them before... Suffice it to say, they're mutilations of Cobb's design.
View attachment 1613078
They still have mushroom caps and squash bodies, but now they fly, have creepy penis tentacles and unfitting human faces with three eyes. Oh yeah, Filoni sure knows his stuff (obvious sarcasm here)...

The Gotal.
View attachment 1612963
This one made it into ANH (although with some minor changes). Cobb's description for them remained unchanged in later media, remaining herbivorous goat people. Their horns can detect minor vibrations of any kind, and their folklore claims that they can sense evil. Attraction is based on horn sizes, as such these freaks may even flirt with other species as long as they have horns...
View attachment 1612973
The more the better in this asshole's case.

I'm guessing this little number may have been the basis of Dewbacks and may have inspired the idea of stormtroopers riding on Dewbacks.
View attachment 1612986

The Duros.
View attachment 1612988View attachment 1612989View attachment 1612998
They were one of the more common species in the galaxy behind humans. Those who grew up with the prequels may remember them as the cousins of the Neimoidians while younger newfags may better remember them as Cad Bane's species. Cobb didn't really add many details concerning these on paper, so its hard to determine how much their final incarnation differed from the concept.

And finally here's this fatty.
View attachment 1613009
Sadly this guy never made it into ANH. However a costume was produced and used in a cereal commercial:

Aside from that, this thing never got adapted, although I think someone once did reuse its design for a wild animal rather than a sentient.

All amazing and original designs. Of course the "current" SW designers couldnt be bothered to respect the established design themes. Sad news to hear of his death he was very accomplished and responsible for many things that I like.

 

[Mississippi Motorboater]

Also Yaddle-fetishist Charles Soule did an interview with Hollywood Reporter about how "amazing" High Republic is.

https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/heat-vision/how-light-of-the-jedi-kicks-off-star-wars-the-high-republic?utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=social

If it's half as "amazing" as he claimed his Kylo Ren comics were going to be, then it's safe to assume that his contributions to High Republic will be concentrated ass.

@Mississippi Motorboater you win this thread with your posts on the real EU. I appreciate you putting in the time to read and then breakdown your thoughts. I look forward to your breakdowns whenever you post them. While I have some qualms with some of your conclusions(I believe LotF definitely repudiates the NJO's ending conclusion of the light and dark sides of the force not being important and the ends justify the means morality expressed) what you are doing is great, your thought process clear! I commend you.

Hey, thanks! It's cool to know that people find my EU sperging posts entertaining enough to read through...especially given their massive, unruly length. I know that a lot of people on this thread are seasoned EU readers already, so I'm trying highlight things that particularly stand out to a fresh-eyed newcomer like me, especially in the wake of the franchise's deterioration under Disney.

And naturally, I don't expect everyone to agree with my conclusions--especially over something as controversial as LOTF. I just hope that with the evidence I've supplanted, everyone can at least understand my conclusions, even if they don't agree. That's all that really matters...the books have been out for years, and everyone's already made their assessment of their quality.

Mine's just coming really, really late.

I'm not engaging in an autistic slap fight with you, no offense meant by that, but I will say this:

1)Those two things are not logically connected at all. You're enjoyment of something shouldn't, and doesn't need to have a direct connections to something that comes later. That's a non-sequitor of the highest regard.

2) The lack of references has been explained to you already. LotF and Legacy of the Force the comic series were being written and put out at the same time. The comic division literally could not include any references to what happens in LotF not FotJ due to the comic coming out during one of the boom series being published and the other one coming out after Legacy of the Force completed it's run.

I'm not trying to open up a new can of worms on this topic either, but one thing that I'll add is that Star Wars Legacy marked the first time that Dark Horse had ventured past ROTJ in years. One thing you'll notice about Dark Horse's contributions is that while they initially tackled New Republic stories in the early 90's--Dark Empire, Crimson Empire, X-Wing, and even an adaptation of the Thrawn Trilogy--after Del Rey took over publishing, they restricted almost all of their output to the Republic and Empire comics.

Why? Well, for two reasons: One was that Randy Stradley was apparently disappointed that Del Rey had decided to tackle the Alien Invasion plotline that he and the folks at Dark Horse had been outlining in Crimson Empire, prompting them to be less enthusiastic about greenlighting comic projects set during NJO.

But more importantly, it was because they didn't want to publish post-Endor adventures in comic form that clashed with simultaneously-running novel story arcs, such as NJO. As @Getting tard comed points out, Dark Horse wasn't privy on everything the novel division of LucasFilm Publishing was doing...hence why you have discrepencies between Heir To The Empire and Dark Empire, for example. So rather than screw themselves over with more continuity clashes, it was just easier for Dark Horse to avoid the post-Endor era that the novels were tackling: That's why you'll notice an a conspicuous lack of comics dealing with Luke's New Jedi Order, or the Solo Twins...because the novels were tackling that, and going through story arcs and authors at mach speed. And even though there was communication between the novels and comics divisions of publishing, there were limits to how they could coordinate and keep everything consistent. So Del Rey's authors were given the freedom to run wild with their story arcs about Luke's Jedi Order, while Dark Horse concentrated on established eras like the Clone Wars or the Galactic Civil War. DH pretty much avoided tackling anything post-Endor for most of the 2000's, and let that remain the playing field of the books.

They wouldn't attempt anything in that era unless they knew they had some breathing room not to step on unfolding narrative events. Star Wars Legacy and Star Wars Invasion allowed them that breathing room. Legact was set over a hundred years beyond the current novel story arc at the time, allowing the Del Rey authors to do things like tease Krayt and the One Sith by having Alema run into them on Korriban in Inferno (something I neglected to mention in my post on the book).

Star Wars: Invasion, the only long-running comic to be set during the Vong War, was being published years after NJO had been released...in fact, if I'm not mistaken, Del Rey was in the middle of FOTJ when the Invasion comics were being put out, which meant Dark Horse wouldn't be tackling anything current and stepping on any author's toes.

So it's only natural that there wasn't a whole lot of crossover between Legacy and LOTF while they were being published simultaneously. That kind of coordination wasn't the norm, and it would be unrealistic to expect elements from both story arcs to be fully present in each other.

Imo, the authors of LotF, and more specifically FotJ did a very good job, one I might add they did not need to, in connecting both book series with the comics themselves in the references they include to Legacy by taking elements in both book series and tying them into the future the comics laid out. Before anyone goes "if the book series could do it why couldn't the comic series do it?" One, there is no reason to assume Dark Horse comics would be privy to Del Ray's publishing story ideas. Two, most of the references in both book series I'm referring to directly tying to Legacy of the Force occur in FotJ not LotF.

I encourage you to try rereading the series again. Imo LotF and FotJ are two of the best products coming out of all of the EU(with LoTF ranking slightly ahead of FotJ), nu-wars and Thrawn, and NJO included in that assessment. I imagine they only shine brighter now that you can see how a worst version of the themes were seen in the sequels.

Agreed. Just because the Bantam Era of publishing doesn't make a wealth of references to things like the Clone Wars, the original Jedi Council or other PT elements doesn't magically mean they're not connected, or in the same continuity. A lack of connections doesn't automatically equal contradictions.

On a side note, it is remarkable to find someone saying anything good about FOTJ. I've seen small fringes of people defend LOTF, but I've seen next to nobody stick up for FOTJ. The disgust and utter revilement for that story arc is almost universal, at least everywhere I've looked online.

But, much like LOTF, I won't know if that hatred is justified until I've read it.

 

[Getting tard comed]

Kiwifarms is probably my first foray into online forums, and nobody I know irl reads EU content so all I'm not aware of what any consensus or even other peoples opinions are of lotf or fotj really.

You'll find out for yourself @Mississippi Motorboater when you read them, but for me while the series isn't as good as LotF the progression of Luke, Ben, the Force, and the overall universe was really compelling. I cared about finding out what happened after LotF and I was not disappointed in what FotJ gave me. The authors did a good job imo of delving into new areas of the Force and the existing relationships between characters and entities that exist in universe. Not to mention the Lost Tribe and the One Sith being fascinating as hell. A completely new(albeit warped concerning the One Sith) interpretation of the dark side and it's practitioners we hadn't seen before. Honestly the most depressing thing about Disney buying LF was that the next series got canceled and I will never find out what happens next.


And I'll add this based on what you've said of the complaints previously in thread others have lobbed at FotJ. TLJ defenders while wrong got something right which is the star wars fandom does not like change. For better or for worse. I can see how new elements introduced in FotJ would rub the fandom the wrong way as to not see the quality of the work because it was different. But I'd bet a not insignificant amount of money that all of the people you've read or heard from that hate FotJ absolutely LOVE The Filoni Wars and specifically the Mortis arc which was the only compelling arc the show had in its early seasons. Everything concerning Mortis was introduced in FotJ and was done better in the books.

 

[LORD IMPERATOR]

I'm not engaging in an autistic slap fight with you, no offense meant by that, but I will say this:

1)Those two things are not logically connected at all. You're enjoyment of something shouldn't, and doesn't need to have a direct connections to something that comes later. That's a non-sequitor of the highest regard.

2) The lack of references has been explained to you already. LotF and Legacy of the Force the comic series were being written and put out at the same time. The comic division literally could not include any references to what happens in LotF nor FotJ due to the comic coming out during one of the book series being published and the other one coming out after Legacy of the Force completed it's run.

Imo, the authors of LotF, and more specifically FotJ did a very good job, one I might add they did not need to, in connecting both book series with the comics themselves in the references they include to Legacy by taking elements in both book series and tying them into the future the comics laid out. Before anyone goes "if the book series could do it why couldn't the comic series do it?" One, there is no reason to assume Dark Horse comics would be privy to Del Ray's publishing story ideas. Two, most of the references in both book series I'm referring to directly tying to Legacy of the Force occur in FotJ not LotF.

I encourage you to try rereading the series again. Imo LotF and FotJ are two of the best products coming out of all of the EU(with LoTF ranking slightly ahead of FotJ), nu-wars and Thrawn, and NJO included in that assessment. I imagine they only shine brighter now that you can see how a worst version of the themes were seen in the sequels.

As I said, I'm happy for you guys that you found LOTF to be fun. I read it, and all it did was leave such a bad taste in my mouth that I did my best to forget everything about its events and just pretend that nothing much happened between the Vong War and the Legacy Era.

1) I'm just looking for consistency. The Vong War was such a great place to leave the story at because the Vong were the threat that kept Palpatine and Thrawn awake at night, and it's the real reason why Palpatine approved Tarkin's logistically insane strategies of creating gargantuan, planet-killing space stations. And yet the Jedi managed to rally the galaxy's forces and defeat the Vong, without playing Palpatine's game of keeping the galaxy unified under a tyrannical government and crapping out oversized space lasers. To have the Jedi defeat the enemy that the Sith and the Empire feared was a poetic, wonderful send-off to the main trilogy characters in my (admittedly biased) view. That they managed to slay the beast that Palpatine feared, without resorting to his tyrannical methods, was a miracle that echoes the same themes as Luke hitting the Death Star's weak point in a one-in-a-million shot.

2) And herein lies the main mistake of writing something that takes place in between two arcs. This is why Naruto filler anime is usually frowned upon, because they do such crazy things in those episodes that take place between two arcs, and yet since that stuff was made AFTER the two arcs are made (usually because ARC 1 is done and ARC 2 is still being animated) nothing from those filler episodes ever comes up in the future, which is narratively jarring. Yes, I know that the Legacy books and LOTF books were coming out at the same time-my point is THAT WAS THE PROBLEM. They should have either A) held off on the Legacy books or put them on pause until LOTF was done, or B) canned LOTF altogether and wrote a different story that doesn't involve major events, but instead, just minor family matters and personal character drama (the kind you see on soap operas) that the rest of the galaxy won't even know or remember.

Er, no. I already gave LOTF a shot, and even trying to read those works again just pisses me off. Especially LOTF Revelation. I might make a shitpost in the future about how that book practically ignores 90% of everything Star Wars, but I'd rather go back and have fun playing good games like the Jedi Knight, Battlefront, Force Unleashed, EPIII, and KOTOR games. Or reading the Thrawn Trilogy or Dark Empire or Tales of the Jedi all over again. Anything but LOTF, because that just left a bad taste in my mouth. And again, as a historian who has to look at logistics and things like war fatigue, I just can't accept the main conflict of the Second Galactic Civil War in my mind. I already stated why, (my lack of belief on the idea that Alliance war vets would kill each other over petty politics while an OOC Jedi leads one side and a scoundrel leads the other) and I believe those reasons made sense. I respect that you think otherwise, but I've made up my mind. I especially can't forgive the death of Mara Jade, which was done without Timothy Zahn's approval (he was even writing a novel about her before the news hit) whereas the EU authors had clearance from Lucas to kill Chewbacca, and Chewie's death made more sense in the context of the narrative.

And of course, them making Daala the new GA head of state boggles the mind. The people didn't want the Empire to come back, yet the new leader is a hardcore Imperial who makes other Imperials look like paragons of democracy? Yeah, no. It would have been better if Garm Bel Iblis was elected as the new head of galactic governance after a war between Corellia and Coruscant-he wasn't involved in rebelling against Coruscant, but he is Corellian, thereby satisfying both sides as a compromise candidate.

And I'll add this based on what you've said of the complaints previously in thread others have lobbed at FotJ. TLJ defenders while wrong got something right which is the star wars fandom does not like change. For better or for worse. I can see how new elements introduced in FotJ would rub the fandom the wrong way as to not see the quality of the work because it was different. But I'd bet a not insignificant amount of money that all of the people you've read or heard from that hate FotJ absolutely LOVE The Filoni Wars and specifically the Mortis arc which was the only compelling arc the show had in its early seasons. Everything concerning Mortis was introduced in FotJ and was done better in the books.

Except the SW fandom doesn't mind change, so long as it's done right. They accepted things like the Prequels which changed so much of how we saw Star Wars and introduced so many new concepts. They accepted things like the Tales of the Jedi and KOTOR games which fleshed out the backstory of Star Wars by a lot. They accepted Dark Empire and all its goofiness, and they even accepted the Vong saga. I for one liked the Yuuzhan Vong because it created a new foe for the SW factions to fight other than each other. (That, and as an Imperial fan, I was kinda getting tired of seeing the Empire fail again and again.) Change done right, the SW fanbase accepts. Change done in a rather shocking or disjointed way, they do not. Heck, some even grew to accept the changes from TCW because back then when Lucas was working there, it was rather good, despite its flaws. Especially since its Mandalore arc angered so many Mando fans, but now, many people, including SF Debris, see TCW's Mandalore arc as a good storyline.

 

[Mississippi Motorboater]

I've browsed a lot of the online circles for Star Wars--its respective Reddits, StarDestroyer.Net, Force.Net, TheCantina, etc--and I'd hardly call the widespread reception of Dark Empire and the Yuuzhan Vong as "accepting". The overwhelming majority of the fanbase is still openly-hostile towards the concept of the Vong, for example, who are almost routinely cited as "not feeling like Star Wars"...and that's before you prod the living, breathing controversy that is Abeloth. All of which is enough evidence that the larger portions of the fandom are averse to practically anything outside of the usual formula.

And the only reason the mountainous changes brought about by TCW have been met with popular acceptance is because the wider Star Wars audience isn't knowledgeable about the EU, and the changes made to Mandalorian lore, and will obliviously clap like trained seals at whatever Dave Filoni farts out...so I'd hardly call them proof that the fanbase is receptive to change, or more risky narrative ideas.

The Star Wars fandom is many things--being receptive to change isn't one of them.

 

[LORD IMPERATOR]

I've browsed a lot of the online circles for Star Wars--its respective Reddits, StarDestroyer.Net, Force.Net, TheCantina, etc--and I'd hardly call the widespread reception of Dark Empire and the Yuuzhan Vong as "accepting". The overwhelming majority of the fanbase is still openly-hostile towards the concept of the Vong, for example, who are almost routinely cited as "not feeling like Star Wars"...and that's before you prod the living, breathing controversy that is Abeloth. All of which is enough evidence that the larger portions of the fandom are averse to practically anything outside of the usual formula.

And the only reason the mountainous changes brought about by TCW have been met with popular acceptance is because the wider Star Wars audience isn't knowledgeable about the EU, and the changes made to Mandalorian lore, and will obliviously clap like trained seals at whatever Dave Filoni farts out...so I'd hardly call them proof that the fanbase is receptive to change, or more risky narrative ideas.

The Star Wars fandom is many things--being receptive to change isn't one of them.

All those things you mentioned still don't have as much hate lobbed at them as LOTF did. People were willing to tolerate and some even were receptive to say, Dark Empire or the Vong. Heck, Dark Empire was lauded when it first came out and was even considered by Lucas to be his favorite SW comic book. The Vong stuff had its detractors, but also its supporters. Meanwhile, most people react to LOTF as if it was full of character rape and pointless wars/deaths. And of course, Jacen fans, Mara Jade fans, and Jaina fans weren't happy. Jaina was treated like shit by LOTF Revelation, Jacen fans didn't like his turn to evil after being one with the Light at the end of the Vong War, and Mara Jade fans hate that she was killed off in a pointless war by an OOC Jacen. Killing Chewie was already a big risk back in the Vong storyline, killing off Mara and Jacen and making Jaina into Boba Fett's bitch was the tipping point for many people.

Also, you can't have it both ways. You can't say that the SW fandom hated the Vong and Dark Empire, then turn around and say that they accept TCW because most of them don't know the EU. It's one or the other: either they do know the EU which is why they hate Dark Empire and the Vong, or they don't know the EU. I'm pretty sure many people who like TCW have seen or known the EU for a while-hence why they pulled concepts from it like Nightsisters and the Death Watch. They even made nods to it with the Trandoshan hunters having a Neo-Crusader helmet in their trophy case and Delta Squad showing up in a cameo.